Can air pass through a Wall of Force or a (windowless) Forcage?

[Psyren]

Yes. And I explained how subject can breathe normally, if nothing (not even air) can pass through.

What's your point?

My point is that both of your bullets are wrong. I covered (c) already, that text still exists regardless of duration. And for (d), the key word is "normally" - if you're in an airless environment when you cast it, you would normally need another means to breathe in the first place, preventing RAW silliness.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[SirNibbles]

My point is that both of your bullets are wrong. I covered (c) already, that text still exists regardless of duration. And for (d), the key word is "normally" - if you're in an airless environment when you cast it, you would normally need another means to breathe in the first place, preventing RAW silliness.

Hope that clears it up for you.

By that same token, "normally" would mean suffocating if/when the air became stale/depleted.

[Deophaun]

If it's air tight, yes. The contention is if it's air tight. For Wall of Force, for example, all it says is that it blocks line of effect (which is why breath weapons don't work) and magic can't pass through it (and this is why Gaseous Form can't pass through it, it's a duration spell, not instantaneous).

Are you saying that, no matter how high your Escape Artist check, you cannot pass through a wall of force if you are the subject of a spell? Longstrider will keep that epic rogue with +200 to his EA check safely contained? Because otherwise, gaseous form would allow you to pass through if the thing is not air tight, as the spell doesn't have to pass through to wall to hit its target (you).

[Elkad]

I wonder how it´d look if we try to apply the same logic to other force effects out there. Mage Armor seems to be a very suicidal spell then. No air, pent up heat, and so on.

Mage Armor is obviously not 100% coverage, or you'd be immune to external damage while it was up.

It has gaps, or flickers constantly, or something.

Ooh, can I escape-artist out of my mage armor and leave it standing there empty?


Breathing normally in a Resilient Sphere is just flavor text as far as I'm concerned. If you are underwater holding your breath when you cast it, it would still be full of water and "breathing normally" would mean you'd drown. Same with staying in it until it runs out of oxygen. You can breathe all you want, if the CO2 content is too high (or oxygen too low, but that takes longer), you start suffocating anyway.

The alternatives are that it allows some slow transfer, but that means poison gas would seep in. Or that it magically creates breathable air (and removes toxic CO2) somehow. Summoned from somewhere? Direct matter conversion?

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.

[Psyren]

By that same token, "normally" would mean suffocating if/when the air became stale/depleted.

Suffocating is not breathing. It is in fact the opposite.

[Segev]

While it is not definitive, the fact that resilient sphere goes to the effort of explicitly stating that the subject can breathe normally within it is a hint that the writer expects that, without that clause, the subject might not be expected to be able to.

You don't see, for example, the enlarge person spell bothering to note that the subject can breathe normally, because there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. If a spell calls out "breathing normally" as if it were a noteworthy exception, it suggests that absent that clause, it might not be true.

For that reason - again, while not definitive - I am pretty confident that it is expected that force walls are normally airtight.

[Psyren]

While it is not definitive, the fact that resilient sphere goes to the effort of explicitly stating that the subject can breathe normally within it is a hint that the writer expects that, without that clause, the subject might not be expected to be able to.

You don't see, for example, the enlarge person spell bothering to note that the subject can breathe normally, because there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. If a spell calls out "breathing normally" as if it were a noteworthy exception, it suggests that absent that clause, it might not be true.

For that reason - again, while not definitive - I am pretty confident that it is expected that force walls are normally airtight.

Indeed, I highlighted this very stance as a possibility (post #22 option A.)

I brought it up however because it proves that magic can make force effects not be airtight despite blocking line of effect. How does RS work? Magic.

[Segev]

Indeed, I highlighted this very stance as a possibility (post #22 option A.)

I brought it up however because it proves that magic can make force effects not be airtight despite blocking line of effect. How does RS work? Magic.

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.

[zergling.exe]

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.

They didn't it's the next spell: otiluke's telekinetic sphere.

[Psyren]

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.

That's an excellent point - but it then raises a different question. If one Evocation [Force] effect is capable of conjuring up breathable air out of nowhere for its inhabitants, why not another?

Sure, Forcecage doesn't say it does this - but it also doesn't say the inhabitants suffocate either, so I would still extend that functionality to it.

[SirNibbles]

Suffocating is not breathing. It is in fact the opposite.

It's what happens when you try to breathe 'normally' in an unbreathable environment.

[Psyren]

It's what happens when you try to breathe 'normally' in an unbreathable environment.

The operative phrase in your response is "try to." Trying to breathe is not the same as breathing. Breathing means you've both tried and succeeded.

[Segev]

That's an excellent point - but it then raises a different question. If one Evocation [Force] effect is capable of conjuring up breathable air out of nowhere for its inhabitants, why not another?

Technically, it doesn't say it conjures up the air, either. It just says the subject can breathe normally. Given that it's an Evocation spell, it's probably evoking whatever property of "breathableness" the atmosphere possesses, in much the same way fireball evokes fire energy (rather than conjuring real fire). Of course, this is pure speculation; the text simply tells us that the subject can breathe normally, not how.

Sure, Forcecage doesn't say it does this - but it also doesn't say the inhabitants suffocate either, so I would still extend that functionality to it.

That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely. Forcecage is silent on the issue, which is why we turn to other rules to see what applies. This is where we get into the "Is it an enclosed space?" question. We have rules for suffocating in such spaces.

Nothing, to my knowledge, explicitly states that a cube enclosed by solid walls of force is air tight, but everything suggests to me that it is, so I would rule it so.

[Psyren]

That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely. Forcecage is silent on the issue, which is why we turn to other rules to see what applies. This is where we get into the "Is it an enclosed space?" question. We have rules for suffocating in such spaces.

We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

[Segev]

We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

Oh, we're left to a DM's call whether an enclosed space with no openings ten feet on a side constitutes a "chamber" or not. Definitely.

[Psyren]

Oh, we're left to a DM's call whether an enclosed space with no openings ten feet on a side constitutes a "chamber" or not. Definitely.

Indeed. As noted in prior examples, Force appears capable of properties that regular enclosures don't share.

[Segev]

Indeed. As noted in prior examples, Force appears capable of properties that regular enclosures don't share.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a "regular" enclosure. Only that it's an enclosure. But yes, it's a DM's call.

[Elkad]

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.

They didn't it's the next spell: otiluke's telekinetic sphere.

Nah, not the same thing. Limited to 30' round, only if you concentrate, etc.
Having it move freely was fun.

[Segev]

Is resilient sphere no longer hamster-ball-able, then?

[SirNibbles]

That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely.

Not quite true- it says "the subject can breathe normally". To me that means the rules for suffocation work as they are written and the spell has no effect on breathing- aka normal.

We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

The rules for suffocation say 'reasonably airtight' spaces can become stale/depleted. I think 'no way in and no way out' (with no qualifiers) means it is 'reasonably airtight'.

[Elkad]

Is resilient sphere no longer hamster-ball-able, then?

Correct. Which isn't the original.
And now that I look, I see it's changed back again in 5e

The globe can be physically moved either by people outside the globe or by the struggles of those within

but the sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.

An enclosed creature can use its action to push against the sphere’s walls and thus roll the sphere at up to half the creature’s speed. Similarly, the globe can be picked up and moved by other creatures.

[Thurbane]

Does that mean Resilient Sphere is the cure for Aboleth Mucus?

[Barbarian Horde]

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.

If I cast this spell, right as the world turned to fire due to some god's wrath. Your new location is at the bottom of a sea of flames with no breathable air as all the oxygen is being used as fuel for the fire.. I will continue to breath normally as per RAW and that will not change until the spell ends. If I'm not breathing then I did not cast RS. I must of casted the flagrant version of the spell that lets you suffocate.

Rules for suffocation could apply to RS for being airtight if the spell description didn't specifically stipulate that breathing normally shall continue while you are in the RS.

[Lazymancer]

Rules for suffocation could apply to RS for being airtight if the spell description didn't specifically stipulate that breathing normally shall continue while you are in the RS.

No, they couldn't. Do the goddamn math.

It takes 65 minutes to start getting nonlethal damage in 7 ft. sphere. Except it's CL 7 and will last only 7 minutes. If you try to increase CL, duration will increase in linear progression, while the volume of air inside - in cubic.

To put it simply: doubling CL will double duration and increase volume of air eightfold.

You can't suffocate in Sphere unless you start homeruling things.

[SirNibbles]

No, they couldn't. Do the goddamn math.

It takes 65 minutes to start getting nonlethal damage in 7 ft. sphere. Except it's CL 7 and will last only 7 minutes. If you try to increase CL, duration will increase in linear progression, while the volume of air inside - in cubic.

To put it simply: doubling CL will double duration and increase volume of air eightfold.

You can't suffocate in Sphere unless you start homeruling things.

If you light torches inside, it uses up oxygen equal to 1 medium creature per torch. 2 torches = 3x the oxygen use

[Lazymancer]

Mein Gott, you are right.

If you hold a torch in each hand, third one in your teeth, and also have your clothes set on fire, suffocation rules will kick in right before Extended Sphere (14 min) winks out and you'll get your 1d6 non-lethal damage. Provided you will not try to extinguish you clothes and they will not burn away, of course.

[Segev]

Whereas, since the spell does specify that the subject can breathe normally, it could be rendered permanent and never cause him to suffocate.

I'll note that making cursed versions of rings of sustenance (such that they cannot be taken off) and shoving somebody in a permanent resilient sphere at the bottom of some form of oubliette is considered an adequate torture for most personally-hated foes.