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2017-07-28, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
The trailers are very telling. Its not just the amount of screen time she's getting. The camera angels, the plot reveals, how the other characters talk (and what about) and to whom (yep her again). This is a show anchored to and revolving around a POV character and shot likewise.
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-07-28, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
My basic complain is that the show won't be a show, just a commercial/add of a very narrow one sided view of things. And so much to the point they will be willing to ruin the show, just to make their point.
Like say if there was an Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby (of alien Newcomers) that demanded that an Alien not only be in the main cast (''We are 2% of the population of Earth so we must be in 112% of all TV shows!''), but they also demand that alien must be the captain/commander/star of the show. The network/creators/people in charge agree or cave in and they hire actor George Washington Bridge (known as G.W. Bridge, of course) to be Captain Zoom of the USS Stardust.
Now the Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby has the show walking a tight rope. Everything the character captain Zoom does must be perfect...in the Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby's eyes, or they will scream and complain. You might have to go as far as to get script approvals from them (unofficially like at a lunch). And as the Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby says that ''aliens are just like humans'', but they don't believe that, they will demand their special alien character not only be perfect, but also be a cheerleader for their single view of everything. So you end up with a character that is just a political puppet.
And then the Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby goes after the whole show. Episode three was to have an alien newcomer thief...but the Aggressive Militant Alien Lobby screams their heads off that ''no alien newcomer in the history of the world has ever, ever been a thief, so this is an attack on aliens pure and simple and we demand this be removed from the show!' And so episode three is changed to have a human thief, and a pure, perfect alien cop that saves the day.
And so on.
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2017-07-28, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
I'm having a hard time seeing the show being as scrupulous about it's image as Darth Ultron is intimating. If Trek were so finely controlled, I don't think we would have ended up with Klingon boots that look like this, presuming this makes it to the final cut.
Spoiler: Someone's been playing a lot of Warhammer 40K
This, along with various other worries like the ambiance I completely empathize with. But the correctness/demographic criticisms don't make any sense to me in the context of the show's history.
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2017-07-28, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- Australia
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2017-07-28, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
The magically perfect protagonist isn't new to Trek, Janeway flirted with that status and Archer was that in spades. He was the first major captain of an exploratory Earth vessel meaning that the majority of the races he met could kick his races butt and yet he never seemed to realize that while he was dealing with these races. He made a lot of dumb calls but the plot required him to be the bestest ever so he was.
So if the new show does the same thing but making their magically perfect protagonist a non-white male I don't see how it's any different than it was for Archer - bad writing. I would like good writing, I'm expecting bad writing. I very seriously doubt any kind of "PC" writing will cause that - The problem I'm feeling from all the Discovery materials I've seen so far is that the people making the show don't seem to have any idea what they want to do with "Star Trek." I understand that because I'm honestly not sure what I want from a new Trek beyond knowing that I want a new Trek, and I want it to be good.
As for the idea that Trek shouldn't be exploring social issues - um ... the only Trek that seems to fit this is NuTrek. Trek was always at its most Trek when exploring moral, ethical, and social issues. There are four lights. Sisko and Garak getting the romulans into the Dominion war.
I think given all the promitional stuff we've seen so far what I'm hoping for is that we have a hot-headed first officer (difficulty suppressing her emotions - maybe a bit more Romulan in her behavior than Vulcan) and a idealistic captain. The Space-orc faction they are dealing with has annexed a planet belonging to a Federation ally and their superiors are following a doctrine of appeasement - claiming dedication to peace. Throw in some political maneuvering by a hard militant faction in the federation which is coordinating with the Klingons to stage a coup against the pro-peace group and start a war which will grant the Klingons the honor and support they need to get the backing of other houses leading to massive escalations. - our hot-head then unknowingly lights the spark to blow the powder keg open and has to try to restore peace / deal with the consequences of her actions. Let the character start without nuisance and get the rough edges filed down to some smooth, hard won wisdom. Have her be right for rejecting the world as it is but wrong for taking the opposite extreme. - That's what I think I'd have done and what I want.
I doubt we'll get it.
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2017-07-28, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- Australia
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2017-07-28, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Sure?
Not sure what you mean though. This happens all the time on TV shows.
Just take any ''special politically correct'' placed character, on a politically correct aware show, of course, and see how they are used. Amazingly they will be used only in good ways.
And I did mention Enterprise was the worst show for this...until the fans took over at the end.
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2017-08-01, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
I can tell why Discovery is going to bomb from a very simple series of events:
1) Showrunners say they are going to use the Prime universe (that's the pre-movie universe) and that it's going to be a prequel
2) They claim they are going to respect Trek's established canon
3) They reveal their main character is Spock's adopted human sister who was raised on Vulcan by Spock's parents.
... And we're done here.
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2017-08-01, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
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2017-08-01, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
This video covers some news and rumours about the show. It includes weird licensing tangles, that mean Paramount who are making the show can't make it look like prime trek, because CBS owns the rights to that look. Despite it airing on CBS.
Also, it's rumoured that Netflix buying the international rights covered the production costs, so now it never needed to be successful to make money.
Is all TV this messed up behind the scenes?
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2017-08-02, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Probably.
Douglas Adams once said that getting a movie made was like trying to cook a steak by having a succession of people come and breathe on it, and I wouldn't be surprised if TV were the same.
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2017-08-02, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Oh, that explains soooo much. Particularly my questions about the Klingons seemingly coming from the Warhammer 40K universe for some reason. That's awful, it's even worse than Marvel's IP schizophrenia as at least that - in all its convolution - has led to creative artistic solutions and growth of their brand despite the Fan4stics et al. This IP-splitting is just hamstringing yourself out of the gate in a vain hope that your very detail-oriented and rather purist fan-base somehow won't care.
... and dear God, a possible CW Star Trek series? I'd prefer a Trek show on Food Network where the Klingon chef from DS9's promenade hosts the Iron Chef Qo'nos competition. I don't even want to imagine what the CW would do to Trek.
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2017-08-02, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
So if everything in that video is true, we're getting a show with a religious bend where we weren't aware of it before, with a different tone, incorporating ideas of a more generic science fiction tale with a dash of fantastic elements, and Spock has a secret sibling.
Really, what could go wrong?
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2017-08-02, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2017-08-02, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
I don't know how much the new Klingons religious inclination will define them or the series. However, it is also said that the new Klingons will cease being a metaphor for communism and instead are representative of certain contemporary American politics.
I think they are trying to make the Klingon Empire great again.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-08-02, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
What do you mean, "Klingon's NEW religious inclination?"
Klingons always have been as spiritual as they come.
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2017-08-02, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Reddish actually said "new KLINGONS religious inclination".
Also Reddish, even when the Klingons were a stand-in for communism in TOS they didn't really go beyond "bad because they're a rival superpower"; there didn't ever seem to be any targeted political thing except for them looking "foreign". And in TNG era they weren't a commie analogue at all, for obvious reasons.Last edited by kraftcheese; 2017-08-02 at 08:51 AM.
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2017-08-02, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
The notion that religion was never in Star Trek, and being suddenly injected into Discovery, was someone else.
I was referring to the Discovery's Klingons being religious, which was revealed. Klingon's have always been spiritual, although I feel you really didn't see that much religious fanaticism as you saw certain traditionalists and would-be dictators who would refer to or make use of spirituality. Worf, himself, is quite a traditionalist in his own way.
THESE Klingons, we know are isolationists, and are meant to represent a "fragmented America." That's more likely to tell us the contours of their agenda.
The new Klingons could end up being much like the old Klingons with a new agenda that only has slight overtones of contemporary politics, or it could be a radical departure.
I don't see religion playing a suddenly super-significant role, but Star Trek has never been utterly devoid of spiritual overtones, when the episode calls for it. The occasional fantastic element comes in from time to time as well.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-08-02, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
My previous experience seems to indicate that's pretty much how it works. Most of the hardcore Trekkies I spoke to were so happy to have a new Star Trek film in 2009 that they didn't really care that it wasn't much like Star Trek in anything other than name.
Time will tell whether they can get people to sign up for their streaming service this way. I have my doubts, though.
I somehow failed to realize that she was supposed to be related to Spock. That makes me even less interested.
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2017-08-02, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Question: How much should Star Trek be Orthodox and how much change should be allowed?
Change in Basic Structure of the Show:
The ensemble space exploration show has been done many times now, and not since TNG has the show been super-popular (I believe DS9 was also popular but it broke the mold by being about a space-station). Meanwhile, among the four or five exploration shows (are we counting the animated series?), there's A LOT of basic space exploration plots that have been done to death already.
The Look & Tech:
The look has to be refined somehow someway every-time. The aesthetics of the 1970's aren't going to work for a show created in 2017 and the show needs to attract new fans to the series. How to you reconcile the fact that our iPhones have better looking interfaces than supposed 24th Century tech of TNG and DS9? Meanwhile, regardless of the universe, Nu-Trek has happened, that means there is now an audience that is already used to the new, sleeker look.
Canon:
This is the last part. The Trek canon has been developed (and contradicted) over hundred of tv shows, not to mention "canonical" books and movies. That's a lot to honor for any new show, and there are not many superfans that know this canon (and the one that wrote this show may have wanted to put his own spin on it). Adding a sibling for Spock is hardly the worse change to cannon (does it directly contradict anything Spock ever said? Perhaps she dies during or after the Discovery series or otherwise is removed as a factor).
Television loves to have drama that raises the stakes, and the possibility of altering or expanding the cannon and telling us new things about the universe and the established characters is an classic way to get viewers invested in the outcome.
Conclusion:
Making a Sci-Fi show about exploration and conflict, where the travelers are NASA-like science-millitary hybrids, and depend on their big capital ship... that's something Star Trek (and no other TV show to my memory) has done. I'd like to see more of that.
However, original Trek was rooted in a 1970's aesthetic and conception of the future, and was heavily constrained by a 1970-era TV budget. What's more, among all the series already on TV, so many plot-lines have already been explored that it is hard for writers to keep coming up with new content. Finally, the established canon is huge and also rooted in decades old science and includes quite a few contradictions between the various shows, movies, and even books.
Its horrible if TV execs take a generic sci-fi script and slap the Trek label on it. However, it would be quite a pity if Star Trek show can never be made again, simply because the fans insist on adherence to orthodoxy to an extent that doesn't allow any new show to breathe. If this show fails, that may be the lesson CBS & Paramount take away from the exchange.
As much as I'd like to see Orville, that isn't Star Trek, its a parody of Star Trek. I want to see a TV show that plays it straight, keeps the spirit of Trek, and takes Star Trek in new directions. Nothing I've seen about Discovery tells me it can't manage to do all that but, if its deviations from the norm are ALREADY unforgivable and unwatchable, that suggests to me that not only can't Discovery succeed, but that no Star Trek show today can be made to succeed.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-08-02, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
On one hand, MarySpock makes me gag already, on the other, Khornate Klingon Isolationists sounds interesting...but not enough to get over that mess of a "protagonist", sadly...
A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2017-08-02, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Speaking of ensembles, here's a fun little doodad visualizing the interactions between characters in all of Trek.
The Look & Tech:
The look has to be refined somehow someway every-time. The aesthetics of the 1970's aren't going to work for a show created in 2017 and the show needs to attract new fans to the series. How to you reconcile the fact that our iPhones have better looking interfaces than supposed 24th Century tech of TNG and DS9?
Adding a sibling for Spock is hardly the worse change to cannon (does it directly contradict anything Spock ever said? Perhaps she dies during or after the Discovery series or otherwise is removed as a factor).
I don't care about continuity beyond it respecting the big rules of Trek even a minor fan should know. Like the Discovery casually visiting the Andromeda Galaxy without a plot device would kind of annoy me. I think the real issue, and I'm open to being surprised about this execution, is it sounds like visiting a common pitfall of crap writing. Like, what's the benefits to making Michael be Spock's sister beyond continuity porn and cheap recognition?
Is it so Sarek can have one paternal relationship he didn't screw up?
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2017-08-02, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
I liked the look of Star Trek Beyond, at least of the Star Fleet-related subjects and the colour it brought to its universe. They kept the functional-looking aspects of the nuTrek design while ditching the distracting and overdone lens flare -- I loved this scene, for instance.
I like the idea of a human raised by a rather alien-feeling society as a main cast member rather than episodic curiosity they can zoom away from when the hour is up. It's got character and story possibilities that have never really been brought into Star Trek before on any meaningful level because the default assumption - regardless if it was intention or not - is that it's largely tragic and on the whole everyone should be raised by their own kind. Vulcans are a race we're familiar enough with and are far enough from Human for it to work, writing-wise.
Making her Spock's long lost adopted sibling is just something that should have been shot down immediately though without a moment's argument, it's such a textbook bad fanfic cliche that it dwarfs your attempt at characterization as surely as Marissa Flores is a princess.
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2017-08-02, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
I think your link makes the point. People want to see every Star Trek as part of one big whole. Calling it "continuity porn" cheapens a fundamental desire to establish continuity in related stories.
Also, Sarek doing right by at least one of his children and serving as mentor figure is a decent idea. It would be nice if, for once, a Vulcan can prove that their logic actually has some practical use and doesn't just always screw things up.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-08-02, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
My biggest gripe with what I've seen of Discovery is honestly that the Klingons don't have hair...I just feel like them having their current design but with hair would have bridged the gap between the old rubber forehead design and the more alien new one.
I'm also wondering whether there'll be any mainstream Klingons in Discovery to contrast with the cult we've seen in the promos; fingers crossed!Tales from the Trashcan
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2017-08-07, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Originally Posted by SuperPanda
Trek was always at its most Trek when exploring moral, ethical, and social issues.
I’m not seeing much in the trailers to convince me that this latest series will do much better, on that count or any other. Like so many other folks, I’m sick of prequels and alternate histories. I want to see the Federation a century after the Dominion War, or even further down the timeline—wherever the future may lead.
If we’re going to boldly go, let it be into a realm we’ve never seen before, rather than this endless recycling of past franchise elements.
Originally Posted by Olinser
3) They reveal their main character is Spock's adopted human sister who was raised on Vulcan by Spock's parents.
What is this, Fifty Shades of Spock?
Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
I'd prefer a Trek show on Food Network where the Klingon chef from DS9's promenade hosts the Iron Chef Qo'nos competition.
Originally Posted by Reddish Mage
I think they are trying to make the Klingon Empire great again.
Do I understand correctly that this show won’t actually be on broadcast TV, but will be streaming only? Frack that; not worth the effort.
That settles it. The Orville is my new show.
Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
I liked the look of Star Trek Beyond, at least of the Star Fleet-related subjects and the colour it brought to its universe.
But after the hot steaming mess of the second NuTrek movie, I’m soured on that whole series. Didn’t bother seeing Beyond in the theater, won’t bother with the fourth one either.
Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
…as surely as Marissa Flores is a princess.
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2017-08-07, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
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2017-08-07, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
To further clarify what Kitten Champion was talking about, you'll want to read this, as well.
Last edited by JadedDM; 2017-08-07 at 06:26 PM.
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2017-08-08, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
Couldn't have said it better.
But after the hot steaming mess of the second NuTrek movie, I’m soured on that whole series. Didn’t bother seeing Beyond in the theater, won’t bother with the fourth one either.
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2017-08-09, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer
The first blu ray I bought that actually felt worth the price!
Sorry Dr Strange, but I'm not apologising about the BvS and I'm still annoyed about TFA!
That's it but back to discussing Discovery why not reveal a Federation system is thought destroyed but turns out an ancient xenotech artefact shifted the entire system into another galaxy and they're forced to adapt any technology they can to rebuild their society whilst trying to figure out what happened?
So no need to rehash Klingons, create your own franchise but trying to perpetuate Star Trek for a new generation!
Is that really that difficult?Last edited by Hopeless; 2017-08-09 at 04:43 AM.