Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer

[Cikomyr]

If you include the humidity the temperature since this past weekend has been fluctuating between 90 and 104 deg F. In Montreal. It's kinda crazy. (~90 inches of snowfall this past winter total so that is still a fair bit).

Yup. Temperature in Montreal has really been.. anormal in the past year. Extremely hot September, rather milddly warm July/August, 4 massive ice storm during winter and a 70cm snowfall in march.

Climate change suck..

[JadedDM]

And unlike CBS, what uh...is on all access besides Trek?, Disney probably does have enough IP to lure people into this.

Big Brother and The Good Fight.

No, really. That's it.

Okay, granted, they have plans for more stuff, but...yeah, just those three shows right now.

[Christopher K.]

Big Brother and The Good Fight.

No, really. That's it.

Okay, granted, they have plans for more stuff, but...yeah, just those three shows right now.

And they're desperate to hold onto whatever membership they get. I signed up for the free trial specifically for Discovery's pilot and opted to discontinue the account before they charged me. After about 5 minutes of searching for a (fairly well-hidden) link to unsubscribe, they offered me a 1-month extension if I didn't cancel. I guess I'll be watching DIS until my free trial's up at the end of October, which should be enough time to gauge whether it'll develop into something more exciting for me.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Christopher K.
...they offered me a 1-month extension if I didn't cancel.

Once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

[Olinser]

once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Resist! Down that path lies evil!!!

[Velaryon]

I want to point out a couple things that no one (afaik) has pointed out.

the opening credits! I personally loved them they had a really cool look to them, just amazing. The opening credits are quite important and at least they got that right.

but the music!!!!! first, no real theme that I got from the first episode, I couldn't get any idea of any theme. Also the music for all the scenes was boring, it was expected. There were no instructing musical parts anywhere in this.

and the setting. what setting? you may ask. Exactly! there is none. this has really annoyed me. it doesn't have that star trek feel that I love

The theme music didn't stick with me, so I listened to it again just now. It's not bad, but it feels unfinished. Like they got so carried away with the buildup that they ran out of time for it to actually go anywhere. I still like it more than the theme to Enterprise though.

[Chen]

It's actually pretty simple. CBS is an American based company. They need something to leverage their new subscription service. They aren't getting that kind of money with Netflix and local stations handling distribution outside the States. But in the US, they can get that sweet sweet money from your subscription, and from watching their commercials ($6 only gets you the shows, you need to pay $10 to be ad free), and from selling your data.

That's why Discovery's effects look so fantastic. No network show could afford that kind of expenditure, but Discovery is the gateway drug for a different revenue model for CBS.

And this is quite possibly the future even if CBS fails. Or at least the Corporate vision of what it ought to look like. Worry not international community, with Disney pulling all of its content from Netflix to create their own version, you too might eventually get to experience this. And unlike CBS, what uh...is on all access besides Trek?, Disney probably does have enough IP to lure people into this.

So looking a bit more it seems like it's just Canada that gets it on air on Space (and the equivalent french channel). Other countries get it on Netflix and the US needs to see it on CBS all access. I'm guess they did it this way because CBS all access would be super unlikely to get picked up in foreign countries whereas Netflix already is. Giving it to Canada on air is just weird but I'll take it. May have something to do with the fact I can't watch any US network streaming stuff online (ABC, NBC, Fox, CBS all tend to say "Not available in your country" when looking at their online stuff).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Big Brother and The Good Fight.

No, really. That's it.

Okay, granted, they have plans for more stuff, but...yeah, just those three shows right now.

I think they have part of their back catalog of reality shows up there as well, and some football games. The sports are commercial-required, even with the premium service, probably because they're live stream.

[Aotrs Commander]

So, apparently, at least the first two episodes are available on Netflixs in the UK, since I walked into the front room and Mum was about half-way through watching. Which completely surprised me, I hadn't even mentioned it to Mum, since I wasn't expecting a UK release for months.

She likes it at any rate, and Dad seems to thnk it's a good yarn (but - as we were literally just debating, his idea of good telly is something episodic you turn your brain off and watch; he didn't think much of B5, for example).

I saw some of the starship combat and it was... Okay, I guess? Shooting was a little bit too fast to properly appreiciate, I think, but... I have seen FAR worse. (NuBSG, for example, which despite several attempts, I simply could not watch.)

Already don't like the len flare, and I've only watched some scattered few minutes. (Also, a bit drama-y as well, which I'm not hugely fond of...)

That said, given the length of time the Klingons were yammering at each other, I would place a bet on them using actual Klingon for that. (Though seriously, whay WOULDN'T you?)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
NuBSG, for example, which despite several attempts, I simply could not watch.

Amazing. This is probably my single favorite SF series.

Strange that you don’t like it, since it has more starfighter and capital-ship combat than any other series I can think of.

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
That said, given the length of time the Klingons were yammering at each other, I would place a bet on them using actual Klingon for that.

If you mean the official Klingon conlang, I’m pretty sure that’s what they were using.

[Aotrs Commander]

Amazing. This is probably my single favorite SF series.

Strange that you don’t like it, since it has more starfighter and capital-ship combat than any other series I can think of.

What I often say about NuBSG is that it appeared to me to be more like a sort of a period drama, except the period was Space.

I tried about three times, but never made more than about five minutes of any episode. (I even saw a Cylon once, for about four seconds.) The drama and premise (i.e. the conflict between humans and technology and the bad robots (sic) they had made) basically held no interest for me whatsoever (I liked my Cylons aliens, thank you), but I thought at least the combat might be worth it... Except the very last episode I tried to watch had excessive camera ADD (at no point ever was continuous waving the camera about a good idea, Mr Director; there's no point in having a starship battle if I can't see what's going on), and was skullpalming that apparently they couldn't even do that right; and then final straw was when that episode revealed their CiC was a table with models they pushed about like it was World War 2. I officially threw my hands up in disgust and that point and gave up.

From what I have later read about heard about the series, I do not feel that was the wrong decision. (Even if it did manage to have some watchable combat sequences, I would not have been able to stomach the rest of it, I'm afraid.) They apparently killed Jolly in the first episode, for Lichmaster's sake! Off-screen, to add insult to injury!

Really not my sort of series, I fear, in pretty much any way.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, Jolly died in episode two, on screen. When the rest of the squadron was wiped out. The series did set up an infowar premise right at the beginning, and the Galactica survived only because Commander Adama is a Luddite who refuses to allow any automation at all (including in the CIC).

Really, the whole series was laid out in the first three episodes.

[warty goblin]

Actually, Jolly died in episode two, on screen. When the rest of the squadron was wiped out. The series did set up an infowar premise right at the beginning, and the Galactica survived only because Commander Adama is a Luddite who refuses to allow any automation at all (including in the CIC).

Really, the whole series was laid out in the first three episodes.

I've tried at least twice to watch nuBSG, and never made it through the miniseries. I'm not even really sure why, but after about three episodes it becomes just deeply boring to me. I don't care about the characters, I didn't care about the setup, and the entire thing just reeked of having no clue how to tell a story beyond drumming up some TENSION before the next commercial break.

Space battles were OK, I suppose. Not as good as B5's by a long shot, but then nothing is.

[SuperPanda]

I just watched the first two episodes again with my wife who was somewhat curious when I watched it the first time and isn't familiar with Star Trek. She enjoyed it enough to watch it with me, wants to know what happened next, and thinks it wasn't bad. She's not generally a fan of Sci-Fi in general.

Things I noticed on a second viewing:

The desert planet mission was not a violation of the prime directive (General Order One) as I'd heard some call it (I think elsewhere in reviews I read). There was a blink and you miss it line of dialogue about how the drought was caused by a mining accident - so the Federation was trying to clean up us mess without being noticed. The dialogue throughout that was still sloppy.

Michael's doubting her Captain after that foreshadows the end of the episode and Michael's real ability compared to her "reported" ability. It highlights that Michael is a pessimist.

The warrior Michael kills was the "Torch Bearer" or ceremonial figure to start the signal - the show sets up that he might have been headed outside to turn on the signal then and that confronting Michael was unplanned. Later the Albino is give. T'Kuvma'a blade and told to "light the beacon" in a similar way. While he might have been warrior cast - I don't think he was suppose to be very good as a fighter - his successor certainly didn't seem much of a fighter either and many of T'kuvma's followers are outcasts and rejects (or so dialogue implies).

The beacon which I (and others) grumbled about was expressly called "some sort of electro-magnetic subspace transmission" - which if I understand Trek physics means that it was a signal which had both light speed and FTL elements to it.

She is actually specifically called out as having not gone to star fleet Academy - she joined the ShenZhou because she couldn't get a post on a Vulcan ship, Serek wanted her to have a mentor that could guide her emotions to a healthy place, and The Captain thought she could do that. Thinking Michael was ready for command was the captain's pride more than Michael's ability.

Durring the mutiny sections Serek, The Captain, and the Science officer all notice that Michael is acting on emotion - she herself doesn't stop long enough too until she is in the brig.

Her speech patterns in the brig change such that she seems accepting that she did the wrong thing - she seems to know she's screwed up by that point.

In the conversation with the Captain she specifically says that she isn't sure if she was acting on logic or emotion (we know it was emotion) - she then expressly mentions being scared of loosing her Captain. Considering the ShenZhou is directly called out as being home/Family and she lost her previous home/family to the Klingons the enotional subtext isn't particularly subtle.

On T'Kuvma's ship she sees him and the Captain fighting once she gets free of her own attacker. She sees her phaser on the ground. She grabs it, raises it as the Captain is killed. The light changed to red as her nostrils flare and her mouth makes a very small snarl - she shoots. There is a moment where it hangs on the expression before she seems to realize what happened.


Countering my own point - Serek does talk her up in the brig scene - but by that point it feels less like "look how awesome you are" and more like "look raising you was a lot of work kid, don't throw it away." He even says (paraphrasing): failure is acceptable but giving up isn't. You failed, you failed big. Now go redeem yourself.

It still has faults but I felt it held up under a sexond viewing so far. I have hope that the season arc is about Michael earning redemption - that is an arc I would like to see.

[Aotrs Commander]

Space battles were OK, I suppose. Not as good as B5's by a long shot, but then nothing is.

Yeah. B5 managed somehow to just hit the absolute perfect point in that regard.

The battle in Severed Dreams, in particular, stands out as being one the most intense, edge of your seat ever (helped by the phenominal set-up, of course) - it gets me every time, even after so many viewings.

I think the music really helped B5, there was just something about it that WORKED for me, even more than, for, say (not-new) Star Trek or Star Wars (and they were both GOOD in that respect.)#



Mind you, B5 is pretty much the gold standard for scifi shows in general.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
There was a blink and you miss it line of dialogue about how the drought was caused by a mining accident….

I completely, entirely missed that. Not sure if it helps the story, but it got by me.

Much of the episode would probably make a lot more sense if I watched it again, but it’s not available on Verizon FIOS. Once again, their push-to-streaming model just pushes me away.

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
It highlights that Michael is a pessimist.

Speaking of explaining, did they ever explain why she’s named Michael? Or am I supposed to feel horrible for being so non-progressive and unenlightened as to even ask?

If so, it’s not working. I’m just puzzled.

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
She is actually specifically called out as having not gone to star fleet Academy….

Something else I missed. Now I almost want to see this again—but not enough to sign up for a nearly-empty streaming service.

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
I have hope that the season arc is about Michael earning redemption - that is an arc I would like to see.

It probably will be, but as noted above, Star Trek’s idea of “redemption” is often fiercely contrived.

For my part, I just don’t care enough about the character to even want to see her redeemed. I want her court-martialed and working on a mining barge.

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
Mind you, B5 is pretty much the gold standard for scifi shows in general.

Ahh, perspectives.

For me, B5 is the epitome of mid-90s schlock. I enjoyed the pilot, mainly because it wasn’t Trek, but the first season did nothing to impress me, and I didn’t watch much beyond it. Mediocre writing, subpar acting, not-great effects. I wanted to like it, but never could.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ahh, perspectives.

For me, B5 is the epitome of mid-90s schlock. I enjoyed the pilot, mainly because it wasn’t Trek, but the first season did nothing to impress me, and I didn’t watch much beyond it. Mediocre writing, subpar acting, not-great effects. I wanted to like it, but never could.

The problem with B5, as I have observed before - you can't watch bits of it, you have to watch ALL of it to get the full impact. (You can't have a massive unheaval of the universe without first setting up the universe.) It's a slow burn to start with. The first season was, indeed, nowhere nearly as good as the later seasons (it was, however, better than TNG/DS9/Voyager's first seasons...), but also was required to set everything up. (I liked it from the get-go, admittedly, but I ALSO liked (and equally endlessly rewatched) TNG from the get-go (and oldBSG and Buck Rogars), because I'm easily pleased by starships.)

I'll grant you, in this day and age, unless it was maybe a Netflix series, it'd probably have suffered from the same fate as Crusade or Firefly and been canned because it was not instantly getting All Of The Ratings.

(I think the sub-par acting is a bit unfair, since the actors on the show were all really good, and given the accusation is most often levelled at Michael O'Hare (who was, it was revealed much later, was suffering very badly with mental illness at the time. G'Kar and Lando, for example, more-or-less reversed roles - G'Kar from scenery chewing villain to spiritual leader, and Londo from comic relief to relucatant villain to some sort of redemption. And it was only when those transformations began, you got to see Andreas Katsultas and Peter Jurassic in full form.)

SFDebris's reviews of it are illustrative, if you're interested in seeing what it actually ended up like once it hit its pace; he's also not hugely impressed by B5 season one, either.



But again, if you (the metaphorical you) are the sort of person like my Dad, who considers that arcs are A Bad Thing, because any commitment to TV beyond "watch something if I really have nothing else to do" he considers a waste of time, you won't get much out of it.

[warty goblin]

Yeah. B5 managed somehow to just hit the absolute perfect point in that regard.

The battle in Severed Dreams, in particular, stands out as being one the most intense, edge of your seat ever (helped by the phenominal set-up, of course) - it gets me every time, even after so many viewings.

I think the music really helped B5, there was just something about it that WORKED for me, even more than, for, say (not-new) Star Trek or Star Wars (and they were both GOOD in that respect.)#



Mind you, B5 is pretty much the gold standard for scifi shows in general.

The music and particularly the cinematography is a lot of it; B5's space battles tended to be shot in a way that let you both see what was going on and appreciate the scale of the encounter. It also immensely helped that for most of the fights both sides were representing known characters and factions, and often were at least slightly sympathetic. BSG suffered from the problem of an enemy that had to be both mysterious and threatening, and somehow also total hero character fodder. This does not work.

Also, B5 hit a rare point where you understood why exactly the big ships and the little fighters were important.

Ahh, perspectives.

For me, B5 is the epitome of mid-90s schlock. I enjoyed the pilot, mainly because it wasn’t Trek, but the first season did nothing to impress me, and I didn’t watch much beyond it. Mediocre writing, subpar acting, not-great effects. I wanted to like it, but never could.

The pilot is one of the worst things in B5; I have watched it exactly once and that was rather more than was required. First season's slow, but there's a huge number of things that are set up in it. Second season things heat up, third and fourth are the best, and the fifth is an unfortunate casualty of nearly getting cancelled after S4. Honestly I think you could stop after season 4, maybe watch the last episode from S5.

[Darth Ultron]

I watched the first too episodes. So, Spoilers:

The So Called Klingons--Well, they were about as bad as I expected. ''Someone made an alien race'' and just slapped the word ''Klingon'' on them instead of making up a new name. You really must wonder why though? Sure they ''use Klingon'' as they are known, popular and coolz.....but, if your just going to change and re-image them anyway into your own personal spin of ''space warrior aliens''.....then why not just make up your own unique race of space warrior aliens?

How I might have done it is have space warrior race, ''the Rill'', as allies of the Klingons(and have their space be between the Federation and the Klingon empire). Then you can have your ''wacky departments'' go all ''alien'' when they make the Rill stuff. But when they do Klingon, they stick to the standard.

In the 23rd century it would have been nice to see a Classic Trek alien, but no....this is the spot where they say ''screw Trek history we will make up our own special alien race" sigh....

The Look: The show is a mix of Star Trek:Enterprise, the Alternate Timeline movies and a lot of, sigh, ''I don't care about Star Trek at all and hate it and I'm just going to make my own personal space stuff..woohoo!''

Spoiler: The Vulcan Hello

Show

Investigating a damaged satellite near a binary star system on the edge of Federation, space, the crew members of the USS Shenzhou discover an object obscured from their sensors...and um ''Klingons''.

It is nice seeing Sonequa Martin-Green again after the Walking Dead, and she sure cleans up from ''Zombie Apocalypse Walking Dead'' to ''Starfleet Squeaky Clean''.

For one of the very, very, very few times in an Star Trek we see a Worker Bee!

At the very least the ''sound effects person'', whoever that is, at least watched the Original Series, as we hear lots of Original Series sound effects(with little twists). Oddly, we also hear Next generation like ones too....


Things that don't Make Sense

*Backstory-Er, so Michael Burnham's parents were killed in an original idea for a Star Trek Character (nothing like Worf's backstory, for example). But how/why did Sarek adopt her? Where there no humans that could do it? Maybe there is more to the story?

*Mind the Miners-Um, ok so the Federation miners ''caused a drought'' and was going to kill the good aliens? Well, er, why were they even mining so close to the planet? Are not whole pre warp solar systems off limits, for exactly this reason? And still, this feels like a cheep copy of the opening act of Star Trek: Into Darkness to say ''see our characters are just as cool and will violate the Prime Directive!''

*Transporter Troubles-The USS Shenzhou has them awesome touch/wave your hand over transporter controls that are from the Next Generation era TV shows, but The Original Series had physical levers that had to be pushed or pulled.

*Constitution Class?- The USS Shenzhou is a Star Trek:Enterprise era ship (''Walker Class''), but ''10 years before Kirk's Five Year Mission'' the USS Enterprise was around and in service. The same is true for a lot of the Orginal Series design type ships. But guess the USS Shenzhou ''is old''.

*Sensor Glitch- So the sensors of the USS Shenzhou can't tell what damaged the relay? Odd...

*Sensor Glitch 2-But, um the sensors can detect the ''something'' way, way, way, way over in the rocks.

*No Small shuttles- What? Enterprise(NX-01) had ''SUV'' sized shuttle pods, and we have seen them in lots of Trek. The idea that you can ''only do an awesome spacesuit joy ride is just silly'', and yet again this is ''our show is just as cool as them alternative timeline movies woohoo!"

*Zoot Suit- Of course Commander Burnham's space suit is way, way, way, way, way , way more advanced then anything seen in The Original Series, Original Movies or any Next Generation era TV show.

*Health Care-The USS Shenzhou has a super advanced ''sick bay'' with a, um, ''positron de- radiation magic machine way more advanced then anything seen in The Original Series, Original Movies or any Next Generation era TV show.

*Dream a little Dream-So Michael Burnham has the little memory of being a girl in the Vulcan Dome of Doom....just like the alternate timeline movie. Though, true, Spock does use such a computer too in the Trek movies. But how do kids on Vulcan learn anyway, all we see is the testing computers?

*Skin Scene- So why was the door to the magic machine not locked? and why did Commander Burnham feel she had to run all the way to the bridge to talk when she could have just made the call from her bed? Of course, this was all a set up to show some skin.....

*Klingon God Sensors-So like seconds after the USS Shenzhou targets the beacon...the Klingon's detect it and uncloak? Wow, they must have good senors?

*Klingon Drift- Um, they uncloak and then just sit there? Very odd behavior for Klingons.

*Cookie Klingons-When asking for someone to be torchbearer, a dark skinned Klingon named Or'eo steps forward. From House Nabis'Co, no doubt.

*The Beacon of Kahless?- So guess this was built on Qo'noS by Kahless in like the 9th century(like in the year 850?) And then launched into space and forgotten about?

*Light of Kahless- So the centuries old ''light'' sends out a subspace negative something or other wedgie electromagnetic signal across the quadrant?

*Holo- Calls- The USS Shenzhou has a super advanced real time holographic communications device way more advanced then anything seen in The Original Series, Original Movies or any Next Generation era TV show(It's even better then the lame one used on DS9, um, twice).

*Calvary is coming- Adrimarl Anderson is like ''all of Starfleet will be there in a hour or so. '' Wait, what, why? Nothing is going on really. So why is the whole fleet warping over?

*Movie Warp-Of course the Warp Effect is the Alternate timeline movie warp effect...but I guess we have seen it from time to time in the TV shows too....

*Does not Compute- The USS Shenzhou has and advanced voice activated computer , but The Original Series had a computer that was...a joke.

*Working-Commander Burnham tells the computer to do something and it gives a slight ''working'' answer...just like The Original Series. Assuming the person who wrote that never watched The Original Series. First, wonder why the USS Shenzhou does not have them little plastic data cards? Second, The Original Series computers were like: Kirk: "Computer, give me the answer for the math problem what is two plus two. Kirk takes data card, slides into slot and makes a huge CH-LUNK. Computer: "working" as some nice vintage 1060's computer/typing/data tape sounds are made. And after five minutes and a commercial break the computer will give the answer "four".

*Call home-Commander Burnham makes a Holo call from her quarters? Guess the awesome holo- communicator is installed everywhere? Yet this was not common for 24th century ships(see any episode of Voyager).

*Space Verizon- Well, guess it was lucky that Sarek, who is like light years away in another time zone was awake and sitting at his holo phone.

*Take a Seat-So....um...Holo Sarek walks over and sits on Commander Burnham's desk/table. What? Or was the real Sarek sitting on a real table on Vulcan that just happened to...um,,,be at the same spot on the USS Shenzhou or something?

*We come in Peace, Shoot to Kill, Shoot to Kill- The Vulcans shoot first? The VULCANS? Did the writer here have never heard or seen a Vulcan in Star Trek before?

*Federation Lite- And, um, are not the Vulcan's part of the Federation now? So like the ''Vulcan database'' would be part of the ''Federation data base'', right? So does no body in Starfleet or on the USS Shenzhou read that?

*Privacy-The USS Shenzhou has some really cool shading doors/windows to make the captains ready room private,more advanced then anything seen in The Original Series, Original Movies or any Next Generation era TV show.

*What alien race?- Of course none of the Kinglon ships that warp in at the end look anything like any other Klingon ships ever seen.

Final- C. It was not a bad sci fi show....for a generic sci fi show. But it gets a bad grade for being no so good Star Trek. And sure it is a ''pilot'' that they forgot to name ''Pilot'', but really huge bit of the show feel like they were written by someone who has never watched Star Trek.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darth Ultron
The Look: The show is a mix of Star Trek:Enterprise, the Alternate Timeline movies and a lot of, sigh, ''I don't care about Star Trek at all and hate it and I'm just going to make my own personal space stuff..woohoo!''

You know, I think this sums it up pretty well.

Originally Posted by Darth Ultron
We come in Peace, Shoot to Kill, Shoot to Kill….

Thanks for the laugh there. So, so true.

Pretty much all of your spoilered points are spot-on. It does feel written by people who don’t know or care about Trek. Any Trek.

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
The problem with B5, as I have observed before - you can't watch bits of it, you have to watch ALL of it to get the full impact.

Well, obviously, you have to watch the full anything to get the full impact. But the first bits have to keep you engaged enough to keep watching. B5 just didn’t do that for me.

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
But again, if you (the metaphorical you) are the sort of person like my Dad, who considers that arcs are A Bad Thing….

I love story arcs, and most of BSG was a tapestry of story arcs. So that’s not really a deciding factor for me.

But yes, I do know people who absolutely hate story arcs. I had a friend who liked TNG, but detested DS9 because, as he put it, “it’s like a soap opera” with all the continuing storylines. He just wanted self-contained episodes.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
BSG suffered from the problem of an enemy that had to be both mysterious and threatening, and somehow also total hero character fodder. This does not work.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here, but I didn’t see this problem. Certainly worked for me.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Also, B5 hit a rare point where you understood why exactly the big ships and the little fighters were important.

Again, I never had this problem with BSG. The vessels were easy to tell apart, and I never had any trouble understanding the context.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
The pilot is one of the worst things in B5….

I actually thought the pilot was at least promising, but the first season utterly failed to deliver on any aspect of that promise, so I saw no reason to keep watching.

That’s pretty much how Voyager was, too. I quit watching when they discovered Amelia Earhart, which I think was the first episode of the second season.

[warty goblin]

I love story arcs, and most of BSG was a tapestry of story arcs. So that’s not really a deciding factor for me.

But yes, I do know people who absolutely hate story arcs. I had a friend who liked TNG, but detested DS9 because, as he put it, “it’s like a soap opera” with all the continuing storylines. He just wanted self-contained episodes.

I think the difference, from the little bit of BSG that I watched, is that the story arc in B5 is very much history-flavored, in the sense that it's a story about a particular sequence of events in a particular place, and how those events impact the people who live there. It's not that the personalities don't matter, it's that they're only one moving piece in a very big galaxy filled with moving pieces. So sure it's important that character X relapses into alcoholism or whatever, but that importance is put into the context of the much larger picture. That it somehow managed to do this with a really quite small cast is quite impressive. It's a perspective that I wish more shows would take.

It also usually avoided the miserable plot gyrations of so many continuity-driven shows where every episode ends with some huge startling revelation and everything's always just at the boiling point and the plot ends up a scrambled hot mess if you actually try to map it all out. These can be a lot of fun don't get me wrong, but the requirements of constant maximum drama really impact what a story can do.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here, but I didn’t see this problem. Certainly worked for me.

What I mean is that BSG (or at least the little bit of it that I watched) never seemed particularly firm about what exactly the Cylons could do. Their entire setup was that nobody understood anything about them, so they were mysterious and threatening. And then the protagonists went and mowed down their ships left right and center. So they were supposed to be scary and at the same time hero fodder, which sort of doesn't work for me.

Again, I never had this problem with BSG. The vessels were easy to tell apart, and I never had any trouble understanding the context.

Oh they were easy to tell apart, there just wasn't much sense of strategy that I could get. In B5, the fighters had several clear roles, forming a defensive screen for the capital ships and shooting out incoming fire, closing inside the effective point defense range of enemy capital ships and destroying them in detail, and engaging other fighters to keep them from doing the same. Capital ships meanwhile usually hang back behind the fighter screens and use their heavier weapons to try to destroy each other, or else close the gap to fight at very close range where interceptors and fighter screens don't work. Later on you get things like the White Stars that sort of operate as very light capital ships or ultra-heavy fighters depending on the scenario.

Part of what I really loved about the fights in B5 is that they aren't laser-focused on how cool and heroic any one fighter pilot is. There's certainly bits of heroism, but the fights are multi-ship actions (or outright fleet engagements), and its the fate of the entire combat group that matters. It's a rather unusual focus for a space battle show, where usually it's about how excellent a pilot their hotshot pilot is, and reinforces the more 'historical' feeling the show is has.

[Velaryon]

From what others are saying, a lot of my issues with Michael's presentation can be attributed to the fact that CBS only put half the pilot on free TV. All of her unprofessional acts, emotional outbursts, etc. seem like they're dealt with properly after the first episode, but since I never got to see that, it left me with a negative impression. It inclines me to think that she will hopefully not be as insufferable as she at first appeared, which is good.

That still leaves the other two problems I have with Discovery, though. I hate their take on Klingons, and I'm still not paying for another streaming service for just one show. So maybe if/when they release it to DVD and I can get it from the library, I'll think about watching more.

[JadedDM]

*We come in Peace, Shoot to Kill, Shoot to Kill- The Vulcans shoot first? The VULCANS? Did the writer here have never heard or seen a Vulcan in Star Trek before?

A.) The Vulcans did not shoot first. They only started doing that after the Klingons blew up a Vulcan ship first. After that happened, they always shot first. To try and negotiate with a species that immediately attacks you would be 'illogical.'

B.) ENT established that the Vulcans were quite different when they made first contact with humans, and Vulcans first made contacts with Klingons long before that.

[Yora]

Part of what I really loved about the fights in B5 is that they aren't laser-focused on how cool and heroic any one fighter pilot is. There's certainly bits of heroism, but the fights are multi-ship actions (or outright fleet engagements), and its the fate of the entire combat group that matters. It's a rather unusual focus for a space battle show, where usually it's about how excellent a pilot their hotshot pilot is, and reinforces the more 'historical' feeling the show is has.

Babylon 5 was never about action scenes. It was about dealing with conflicts and making risky decisions.

And so was Star Trek.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the difference, from the little bit of BSG that I watched, is that the story arc in B5 is very much history-flavored, in the sense that it's a story about a particular sequence of events in a particular place, and how those events impact the people who live there. It's not that the personalities don't matter, it's that they're only one moving piece in a very big galaxy filled with moving pieces. So sure it's important that character X relapses into alcoholism or whatever, but that importance is put into the context of the much larger picture. That it somehow managed to do this with a really quite small cast is quite impressive. It's a perspective that I wish more shows would take.

It also usually avoided the miserable plot gyrations of so many continuity-driven shows where every episode ends with some huge startling revelation and everything's always just at the boiling point and the plot ends up a scrambled hot mess if you actually try to map it all out. These can be a lot of fun don't get me wrong, but the requirements of constant maximum drama really impact what a story can do.

To boil it down a bit more, it was the Stuff That Was Being Done (i.e. the events/ story arc) that was more important, whereas Who Was Doing It (the characters in that arc) was less important¹. (In B5's case, literally in a way, since MJS had had to plan ahead and around the cast changes (which did, of course, occur!)) BSG sounded to me always that it was very much more about Who Was Doing Stuff, not What Stuff Was Being Done. Star Trek, actually, even Discovery, even, was always had more of that focus to it.

Funnily enough, the former is exactly the way I run my quests; I run my quests and the characters follow the adventure (within the margin of "players are involved"); the characters do not determine the adventure. It's basically a bit of a module-verses-freeform sort of differentiation, I think.

B5 set out to tell ONE story, with a beginning middle and end - (up until season 5, anyway), whereas Trek (or Stargate, to a large extent, though that was more of a middle ground) tends to tell lots of stories (usually one per episode). Sort of the difference between Lord of the Rings or the Belgariad verses Discworld or, I dunno, the chronicles of Valdemar or something.



As I have said before, human drama holds inherently less than zero appeal for me. It's like a seasoning. When added in the appropriate amounts, it makes things better, but you wouldn't eat a meal of it. Basically, if you want me to care about two characters having some sort of interpersonal difficulty or whatever, you had better have garnered my attention with somethines else first. (Starships, shootin' things, humour, Undead (except for vampires (unless Slayers are involved) and zombies), superpowers, magic... Whatever. But "this is a deep and engaging drama about people struggling with something" won't even get me to look in that direction.) Once you HAVE my attention, you will quite likely have me along for most of the ride for whatever you want to do, within reason... But if all you have offer me is a plate of sauce, you ain't even gonna get started.

B5 absolutely did grab my attention first, and why I forgave it for the one or two times it was a little bit too clever/arty for its own good, to be honest. (Though frankly, I forgive almost anything for That One Scene with Vir - fellow fans, you know which one! - which is probably the best single moment of anything ever.)



¹Note: LESS not UNimportant. That's is a critical distinction.

[Darth Ultron]

All of her unprofessional acts, emotional outbursts, etc. seem like they're dealt with properly after the first episode,

Well....that does not happen yet, at least not as of Episode 2.

I'm still not paying for another streaming service for just one show.

I guess CBS did get ''record'' sign ups for their service. But..ok, Star Trek fans will pay for new Star Trek content...wow, that is not news. So sure they sign up, watch the show for the couple of weeks, then cancel...so, wow, CBS makes a ton of money? But then what?

A.) The Vulcans did not shoot first. They only started doing that after the Klingons blew up a Vulcan ship first. After that happened, they always shot first. To try and negotiate with a species that immediately attacks you would be 'illogical.'

B.) ENT established that the Vulcans were quite different when they made first contact with humans, and Vulcans first made contacts with Klingons long before that.

Well...

A) ''Logic'' does not automatically give a person a ''what to do''. And I'm not sure it is ''logical'' to ''attack the crazy warrior race''. Maybe it would just be more logical to get away?

And sense when do the Vulcan's have Battlestars or any other dedicated warships? It would seem the average Vulcan ship would be very outmatched by a Klingon battle anything.

B) Did you watch ENT? Vulcans where ''on the road to bad'' because they were being manipulated by the Romulans to be ''evil'' as part of their Unification plan. Once that was stopped, they became good again.

And the shows was not talking about the contact Vulcans had with Klingons centuries ago, she mentions one only 40 years ago.

And it's just odd no one mentions Enterprise or Captain Archer and the lots of Klingon encounters they had.

[JadedDM]

And the shows was not talking about the contact Vulcans had with Klingons centuries ago, she mentions one only 40 years ago.

No, they (Sarek and Michael) were specifically talking about Vulcan's first contact with the Klingons in the H'atoria system in 2016 (which would have been 240 years ago). That's where the whole 'Vulcan Hello' thing came from.

[Olinser]

Well....that does not happen yet, at least not as of Episode 2.



I guess CBS did get ''record'' sign ups for their service. But..ok, Star Trek fans will pay for new Star Trek content...wow, that is not news. So sure they sign up, watch the show for the couple of weeks, then cancel...so, wow, CBS makes a ton of money? But then what?



Well...

A) ''Logic'' does not automatically give a person a ''what to do''. And I'm not sure it is ''logical'' to ''attack the crazy warrior race''. Maybe it would just be more logical to get away?

And sense when do the Vulcan's have Battlestars or any other dedicated warships? It would seem the average Vulcan ship would be very outmatched by a Klingon battle anything.

B) Did you watch ENT? Vulcans where ''on the road to bad'' because they were being manipulated by the Romulans to be ''evil'' as part of their Unification plan. Once that was stopped, they became good again.

And the shows was not talking about the contact Vulcans had with Klingons centuries ago, she mentions one only 40 years ago.

And it's just odd no one mentions Enterprise or Captain Archer and the lots of Klingon encounters they had.

Given how poorly their subscriptions were faring, if they don't release actual numbers you can bet that 'record' signups means 'pathetically below expectations'.

After all if you were only averaging 100 new people a week signing up and you got 500 that week, thats 'record'.

[SuperPanda]

I enjoyed it. I want to see more. I am living outside the US until mid Nov and can watch till then without paying for a new service. I like what I've seen - I would not pay for a service just for this though.

As to why the Character is named Michael - there is no in universe discussion about it at any point. I just took it as future Trek thing such as how Jean Luc Picard had he most British accent ever.

I have no idea if it is suppose to be progressive or an element of the setting. I've taught ESL enough years to know that not every culture today gets the concept of gendered names. It is more than plausible to me that parents in the future will be just as arbitrary as parents in the present about names so I always read it as her parents wanting to ensure she's was special - this reading is unlikely to be challenged because there is no sign she even remembers them.

[JadedDM]

Bryan Fuller, the original showrunner, frequently has female protagonists with traditionally male names. Supposedly it's his 'signature move.'