Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIII: You Must Smash Additional Pylons!

[Blackhawk748]

Sure, after they've used their powers once or twice. So is everyone else in the vicinity.

In all seriousness, it helps to decide on one version of the psyker rules that everyone will use since it's so different between games, and that changes the power level of psykers considerably.

I agree. Dark Heresy Psykers probably have the highest ceiling (see Ascension) whereas everyone else is kinda in the same ballpark. It helps that they unified the Psyker casting after Rogue Trader

[bluntpencil]

I agree. Dark Heresy Psykers probably have the highest ceiling (see Ascension) whereas everyone else is kinda in the same ballpark. It helps that they unified the Psyker casting after Rogue Trader

The Vindicare blows the Stormtrooper out of the water, too.

Each character, in effect, at that level, is playing a different game from each other. Ascension sucks, since it isn't really conducive to group play.

[The Glyphstone]

About like you'd expect: with the partial exception of Tech-Priests and Explorators, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader characters are far less resilient than the Deathwatch norm, but in my experience there's no clear winner in damage output across all situations -- and, of course, the normal humans can acquire different skills more easily.

I tend to find Rogue Trader characters (obligatory exception to Explorators) to be the overall-squishiest characters relative to their own content, because their wealth gives them access to Space Marine-level damage and equipment while they remain humans only slightly tougher than Dark Heresy acolytes; with opponents scaling equivalently, it is the most Rocket-Taggy of a very Rocket-Taggy system.

[Grim Portent]

I think RT does have the most utility psychic powers in it as well though, which is a neat bonus to the various psykers you can build in it.

Like that one power you can get which lets you summon a GM determined daemon with lower willpower than you. Because that could never go wrong.

Or more practical, the frost powers that let you put dying party members in stasis or freeze enemies solid, the one that makes you immune to corruption points and the ones that let you buff your whole party's various stats in a psy rating (or was it willpower bonus? I forget which) radius bubble.

Very little is as potentially scary as some Astropaths working together to all get +30 to all their stats, plus bonuses to dodge and hit from Divination.

[Blackhawk748]

So i was watching 40k Theories, and i just discovered the Black Dragons Chapter. How have i not heard of Baraka the Chapter?? Seriously, they have Bone blades that come out of their arms! That is so Metal

[Wraith]

Adamantium-sheathed bone blades, no less.

They've been around a while - there's even a couple of novels with them as the protagonists, I believe - so I don't think it's something obscure that just slipped by. I think it's just that, when talking about borderline-Renegade Chapters, people tend to think of the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels/Blood Angels Successors first, the campaign-based ones (such as the repentant losers of the Badab War, etc) second, and the individual "quirky" guys last.

[Cheesegear]

Seriously, they have Bone blades that come out of their arms! That is so Metal

Death of Antagonis is one of the better Space Marine Battles novels I've ever read. Nothing will ever top Helsreach, but 'Antagonis comes pretty close.

[Drasius]

So i was watching 40k Theories, and i just discovered the Black Dragons Chapter. How have i not heard of Baraka the Chapter?? Seriously, they have Bone blades that come out of their arms! That is so Metal

Or just, ya know, a crappy wolverine knockoff?

I will say that our blackshirt certainly loves death of antagonis almost as much as Cheese though.

[Blackhawk748]

Death of Antagonis is one of the better Space Marine Battles novels I've ever read. Nothing will ever top Helsreach, but 'Antagonis comes pretty close.

Neat, i'll have to check that out.

[DataNinja]

Adamantium-sheathed bone blades, no less.

They've been around a while - there's even a couple of novels with them as the protagonists, I believe - so I don't think it's something obscure that just slipped by. I think it's just that, when talking about borderline-Renegade Chapters, people tend to think of the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels/Blood Angels Successors first, the campaign-based ones (such as the repentant losers of the Badab War, etc) second, and the individual "quirky" guys last.

There's one Deathwatch short story, I believe, with one as the viewpoint character. And the entire point of the group, IIRC, is that it's made of near-Heretical chapters. So that's interesting. I do suggest a read, I've highly enjoyed the Deathwatch story collection, and that story has always made me remember the Black Dragons.

[Grim Portent]

Or just, ya know, a crappy wolverine knockoff?

I don't think they smoke or drink enough to be wolverine knockoffs.

[13_CBS]

I don't think they smoke or drink enough to be wolverine knockoffs.

"Breathe deeply from the Holy Incense Stick, Brothers, and let its smoky essence fill you with the Emperor's glory."

[lord_khaine]

I don't think they smoke or drink enough to be wolverine knockoffs.

They could if they wanted to.. being Space Marines and all..

But whats funny is that in the absurd universe of 40K, then Wolverines adamantium spurs are just another melee weapon.
I mean yes it is the hardest material the Imperium knows. But its just blades, not a chainsaw.. or encases in a field of energy that disrupt molecular bounds.

[Cheesegear]

But its just blades...

But it looks cool.
You may as well just say 'Carcharadons just have black eyes and razor teeth.' When what you really mean is...

"SPACE SHARKS!!! have black eyes like the blank, staring, black pit of death, and their razor-sharp smile is the last thing you'll ever see before they tear out your jugular with their teeth, because they can. SPACE SHARKS!!!"

But wouldn't a Chainsword basically do the same thing?
Missing. The. Point.

[Drasius]

But it looks cool.
You may as well just say 'Carcharadons just have black eyes and razor teeth.' When what you really mean is...

"SPACE SHARKS!!! have black eyes like the blank, staring, black pit of death, and their razor-sharp smile is the last thing you'll ever see before they tear out your jugular with their teeth, because they can. SPACE SHARKS!!!"

But wouldn't a Chainsword basically do the same thing?
Missing. The. Point.

I'm going to go with a rather unpopular opinion here - Spess sharks are horribly over-rated and aren't cooler in any way than any other marine chapter. Except Spess woofs, who aren't cool at all.

[Wraith]

The Space Sharks are a meme, drilled into the ground and buried with piles of dead, beaten horses just like every other thing on the internet that even vaguely resembles a "joke".

The Carcharodons, however, when played straight and written in a context that actually shows what they're about, rather than what people THINK they're about, are pretty damn cool. They are almost literally Loyalist Night Lords, which is just lots of fun.

[Drasius]

The Space Sharks are a meme, drilled into the ground and buried with piles of dead, beaten horses just like every other thing on the internet that even vaguely resembles a "joke".

The Carcharodons, however, when played straight and written in a context that actually shows what they're about, rather than what people THINK they're about, are pretty damn cool. They are almost literally Loyalist Night Lords, which is just lots of fun.

Meh, I wasn't impressed by their latest book at all, though it could be argued that it was the writing rather than the story/characters/setting.

[lord_khaine]

But it looks cool.
You may as well just say 'Carcharadons just have black eyes and razor teeth.' When what you really mean is...

"SPACE SHARKS!!! have black eyes like the blank, staring, black pit of death, and their razor-sharp smile is the last thing you'll ever see before they tear out your jugular with their teeth, because they can. SPACE SHARKS!!!"

Well.. sharks are not that scary.. and the Space Sharks should be careful they are not fished to engangered status by Space Humans

But wouldn't a Chainsword basically do the same thing?
Missing. The. Point.

Yeah i guess that happens a lot, or else there would not be need for the 2 additional blades?

[Cheesegear]

I'm going to go with a rather unpopular opinion here - Spess sharks are horribly over-rated and aren't cooler in any way than any other marine chapter. Except Spess woofs, who aren't cool at all.

I'm not saying I disagree. But, my point was that Black Dragons don't 'just have arm blades' (forgetting that some of them also have have horns, many of them have scaly skin, and they breathe fire instead of acid), anymore than Carcharadons 'just have razor teeth'. In many ways, all Space Marine Chapters are lame, because every single one of them is just more 'Power Armour and Boltguns'. What makes Chapters - and Legions - interesting is the personality, emotions, and personal character behind them. Judging from Death of Antagonis, the Black Dragons are so much more than 'arm blades' (and horns, scaly skin and fire breathing), they're abominations, and half the Chapter wants to do MOAR mutations, and half the Chapter wants to execute the other half. They have to steal gene-seed from their dead allies because their gene-seed (Salamanders?) is ****ed (a la Flesh Tearers).

Appearance is superficial, much like screaming 'SPACE SHARKS!!!' is. If your only focus is on arm blades and razor teeth, then no. Those things don't really serve any practical purpose at all. Why the arm blades? Why the razor teeth? What's so special about Raven Guard? Well, nothing, really. Except for the fact that everyone sucks except them.

Marines is Marines is Marines. Unless you don't want them to be. Except Space Wolves, who suck.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not saying I disagree. But, my point was that Black Dragons don't 'just have arm blades' (forgetting that some of them also have have horns, many of them have scaly skin, and they breathe fire instead of acid), anymore than Carcharadons 'just have razor teeth'. In many ways, all Space Marine Chapters are lame, because every single one of them is just more 'Power Armour and Boltguns'. What makes Chapters - and Legions - interesting is the personality, emotions, and personal character behind them. Judging from Death of Antagonis, the Black Dragons are so much more than 'arm blades' (and horns, scaly skin and fire breathing), they're abominations, and half the Chapter wants to do MOAR mutations, and half the Chapter wants to execute the other half. They have to steal gene-seed from their dead allies because their gene-seed (Salamanders?) is ****ed (a la Flesh Tearers).

Appearance is superficial, much like screaming 'SPACE SHARKS!!!' is. If your only focus is on arm blades and razor teeth, then no. Those things don't really serve any practical purpose at all. Why the arm blades? Why the razor teeth? What's so special about Raven Guard? Well, nothing, really. Except for the fact that everyone sucks except them.

Marines is Marines is Marines. Unless you don't want them to be. Except Space Wolves, who suck.

Agreed, the arm blades just help draw attention to them, cuz they are weird. Then i read about the Dragon Claws in their Chapter and i went "These guys are even more cool than i thought. Super Sized Dragon Marines, Metal!" Then you get into all the other weird crap going on with them and they get even more interesting.

[Mr. E]

Isn't that more generally a mark of good or bad 40k fluff? The characters/events may look cool, but if the writers don't give them personalities to match (which they frequently don't) they are boring pretty quick. That said, when they do get personalities, it really does work quite well.


Also, what is the gender balance of the Militarum Tempestus? I would imagine that not every female member of the Schola Progenium would display the requisite qualities to become a Sister of Battle (extreme zealotry, etc) and thus some must end up in the Storm Troopers, but how many? If any books state the numbers (or state outright that all females become Sisters of Battle) that would be ideal, but I'm guessing they don't. Alternatively, I could assume that the qualities that make good Sisters of Battle also make good Commissars. In that case, assuming that all males who display extreme loyalty and an uncaring nature become Commissars, and all females that display similar characteristics display become Sisters of Battle, then comparing the number of Sisters of Battle to number of Commissars would allow me to calculate what proportion get left behind (assuming that equal numbers of orphans of each gender). Does anybody know either number? Please help.

[Cheesegear]

Also, what is the gender balance of the Militarum Tempestus?

Not a clue. Schola Progeniums teach the children of the Imperium. Specifically, orphans in the Imperium - especially of ranking officials - are streamlined into the following...

- [Arbites]
- Storm Troopers
- Commissars
- Imperial Navy Officers
- Imperial Assassins
- The Inquisition
- Sisters of Battle

Some schools are even recruiting grounds for Space Marine Chapters (especially in Ultramar). While anyone could potentially join any organisation in the list, Orphans, are nearly always drafted, because they don't have a Family, and so they get drafted to the Imperium, because who else even cares about them?
So, yes. Female Scions could exist, but I can't think of any examples. Meanwhile, I can list females of every other position.

I would imagine that not every female member of the Schola Progenium would display the requisite qualities to become a Sister of Battle

What is 'indoctrination'?

Does anybody know either number?

The numbers of orphans in each organisation is decided by plot.

[Trekkin]

every single one of them is just more 'Power Armour and Boltguns'. What makes Chapters - and Legions - interesting is the personality, emotions, and personal character behind them.

It occurs to me that this is what I've never been able to put my finger on about why I don't like Space Marines fluff: so much of their narrative space is defined by what they are that it's hard to make them unique without making them not Space Marines. They are an entire army of paladins; they either fight and die gloriously in glorious boring bloodshed, or they risk falling and then angst about risking falling and then fall or die gloriously as previously mentioned. All the angst about genetic purity just adds a racism-y flavor to the existing, and tired, purity angst already running through paladins of all types.

Really, Space Marines are expensive servitors; they're a replaceable part of a killing machine made of ceramite and mass-reactive shells and overgrown kids with a bunch of extra organs and hypno-brainwashing. They know no fear, and so cannot have character arcs that involve overcoming fears; they don't have enough free time to believably have non-war interests, let alone aspirations beyond "kill a bunch of stuff and then die for the Emperor." They don't set up illicit stills in the Chapel-Barracks, they don't play cards for lho-sticks, and they don't even use contractions (at least according to the FFG RPG). Their war will never end except in their (glorious) death, they don't have families, they don't get old and weary or sick... it's just hard to come up with many distinct personalities for them, let alone for a subset of them even more restricted by needing to be a distinctive Chapter. At least the Traitor Marines can have a range of ambitions and experience emotions other than anger and self-righteousness.

I don't mean to say that the Marines are a bad faction or that anyone's wrong for liking them. I just don't see why we need nearly as many Chapters as we have when "Space Marine" is already so narratively limiting.

[Tehnar]

It occurs to me that this is what I've never been able to put my finger on about why I don't like Space Marines fluff: so much of their narrative space is defined by what they are that it's hard to make them unique without making them not Space Marines. They are an entire army of paladins; they either fight and die gloriously in glorious boring bloodshed, or they risk falling and then angst about risking falling and then fall or die gloriously as previously mentioned. All the angst about genetic purity just adds a racism-y flavor to the existing, and tired, purity angst already running through paladins of all types.

Really, Space Marines are expensive servitors; they're a replaceable part of a killing machine made of ceramite and mass-reactive shells and overgrown kids with a bunch of extra organs and hypno-brainwashing. They know no fear, and so cannot have character arcs that involve overcoming fears; they don't have enough free time to believably have non-war interests, let alone aspirations beyond "kill a bunch of stuff and then die for the Emperor." They don't set up illicit stills in the Chapel-Barracks, they don't play cards for lho-sticks, and they don't even use contractions (at least according to the FFG RPG). Their war will never end except in their (glorious) death, they don't have families, they don't get old and weary or sick... it's just hard to come up with many distinct personalities for them, let alone for a subset of them even more restricted by needing to be a distinctive Chapter. At least the Traitor Marines can have a range of ambitions and experience emotions other than anger and self-righteousness.

I don't mean to say that the Marines are a bad faction or that anyone's wrong for liking them. I just don't see why we need nearly as many Chapters as we have when "Space Marine" is already so narratively limiting.

+1 to this. Apart from Orks or Tyranids there is no faction that its harder to write compelling stories about.

[bluntpencil]

I imagine that the numbers of females sent to the Sororitas (and graduates sent to the Ministorum) depends on the influence of the church in the area, proximity to convents etc.

If there's pressing need for Tempestus Scions, I imagine we'd get more, particularly if the head teacher was a former Tempestor Prime or something.

[LeSwordfish]

There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't see Female Scions. (I know of, and sympathise with, people who say the primaris marines were a missed opportunity to introduce female marines in the same no-fuss way they did for the stormcast.) I have some Statuesque Miniatures female veteran heads - sunglasses, beanie caps, cigars - and I'm deciding what to do with them: put them on Iron Armour to make alt-sororitas? or on Genestealer Cults to make a cool rebel alliance force (which could act as cultists or Inquisition equally well.) Or just make lady Scions.

[lord_khaine]

There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't see Female Scions. (I know of, and sympathise with, people who say the primaris marines were a missed opportunity to introduce female marines in the same no-fuss way they did for the stormcast.

This i do agree with, its a new method, a new breed of Marine, and there are no reason for why old limitations would stick here.
But again i guess GW dont see to much of a need for this, when they have Sisters of Battle?

Perhaps it would actually not be needet if Sisters actually became playable in the rebbot?

[bluntpencil]

This i do agree with, its a new method, a new breed of Marine, and there are no reason for why old limitations would stick here.
But again i guess GW dont see to much of a need for this, when they have Sisters of Battle?

Perhaps it would actually not be needet if Sisters actually became playable in the rebbot?

Fully agree, missed opportunity.

I understand that the Primarchs represent both the strengths and frailties of masculinity (just like the Knights of the Round Table), but it's not that big a deal.

[Drasius]

Please, can we not start the insanity that is/was the female marines argument again?

[Tome]

Maybe they have? We haven't seen their full fluff yet and if they've gone the "there's basically no way to tell the difference post-augmentation unless you strip them naked" route we'd have no indications from the models. This improved process would make a perfect excuse to quietly slip that in.

I mean, I know that if they said I can have my primaris marines be female, considering that the minis look way less horrible than the old models, I'd probably start an army of them.