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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Spore's Avatar

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    Default Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    "Remember, Arthas. We are Paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do." -Uther the Lightbringer, Warcraft 3, 2002

    In the context the young Paladin Arthas has learned that the Orcs have killed two of his knights and swears to kill them all. The older and more wise Uther reminds Arthas that his duty is to defend (and to strike back) but not to let bloodlust cloud his judgment.

    The quote is from 2002, with 3,5 in full effect and the classical picture of the Paladin (our Devotion Paladin) but it got me thinking. I feel from all the Paladin kits, only the Devotion Paladin is a _REAL_ and proper Paladin after newer (gaming) definitions.

    While the Oath of Ancients might represent art and everything positive in the world and can even be attributed to being a "Fey Knight" it almost has nothing to do with classical good forces like Angels, the Undying Light or similar.

    And while the Oath of Vengeance might pursue noble goals, they usually go get them done with all means necessary. Even if it means bringing suffering - as in torture - or murder to this world. Heck, a Vengeance Paladin could even genocide an Orc Camp and justify it was "the noble deed".

    How are you referring to Ancients or Vengeance Paladins in your games? Are they Fey Knights? Avengers? Are Vengeance Paladins even blinded lackeys of a tyrannical rule? What do your Ancients and Vengeance Paladin PCs (NPCs or DMPCs) differently than standard Paladins?

    And as any thread about Paladins can quickly devolve into a - useless - alignment discussion, just imagine you wouldn't use alignments in the game for a moment.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil. I choose the greater evil.

    Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

    My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.

    If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

    I am the one willing to question authority, to do what I know is right.

    I am vengeance.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    While certainly not "classic" paladins, I would say that the other two core paladin Oaths harken back to classes from D&D's past, including 3.5, as do most if not all of the archetypes for all the classes of 5th edition.

    Oath of the Ancients, to me, harkens back the Paladin of Freedom from 3.5's Unearthed Arcana (I believe), which was mostly a Paladin with less to no "stick up its butt" due to being CG rather than LG.

    Oath of Vengeance harkens back to the Grey Guard prestige class, which basically allowed one to be a "bad cop" Paladin.

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    Devil

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Last I checked, no-one used Warcraft as a measure of what is "real" anyway. Given that the term Paladin has been around since at least 8th Century Frankia, I'm fairly sure that the Paladin in Warcraft is an abortion to what Charlemagne's greatest considered.

    Also, the classes are a bag of mechanics, and use internalised names to make rules reference easier. A Paladin of Devotion isn't a Paladin of Devotion, she's Aaliyah the Healer, Apprentice Sister of the Order of the White Rose, while the Oathbreaker is Krios the Reaver. A Fighter isn't a Fighter - they are Dave the Barman. A Druid isn't a Druid, they are Kath'gor, Arch-Shaman of the Snow Leopard Tribe. A Monk isn't a Monk, they are Sensei Miyagi. A wizard doesn't cast Fireball. The cast "Conflagration of Har Ganeth". A Sorcerer doesn't cast Fireball; they don't even cast Conflagration of Har Ganeth; they simply cast raw magic that appears in the form of a fireball. My Hexblade doesn't call the Curse Bringer Greatsword, he calls "Harvester", a great Scythe.

    I care little about what some dude in an office believes is how something should be run. It's a roleplaying game, and the dude in the office on the other side of the world isn't playing the role, I am. Or the player of the Paladin is. The mechanics represent their abilities in game, not the name dreamed up to flavour some abilities.

    I don't have a problem with someone pulling the abilities of the class and its fluff wholesale if that's how they're roleplaying. They can call themselves a Paladin of Vengeance if they want.

    As to your complaint of what a Vengeance Paladin considers the Greater Good, here you've got the same issue - say that a Party containing both a Devotion Pally and a Vengeance Pally get the same individual that the entire world will be destroyed if a child is born to X tribe of Barbarian Orcs? What greater good is there in the possible genocide of the entire world, if you allow that tribe to live?

    Say you're given a child to hold, and you get a vision telling you that if this child reaches adulthood it will bring about the holocaust; it's Hitler, or Pol Pot, or Lenin, or Mao, or Margaret Thatcher, or Donald Trump or whatever individual who causes such damage to the world. Are you trying to suggest that a Devotion Paladin is going to allow that to happen, while a Vengeance Paladin would go all Gregor Clegane on the child?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    It was a way for them to sneak in Avengers and Wardens from 4e, in fluff if not mechanically. I'm not mad.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    The game I run has a Vengeance Paladin PC.

    I generally agree that a Vengeance Paladin truly departs from the core concept of what a Paladin is.
    However, I think we make it work by really RPing and describing the paladin's relationship to his deity, Tyr.
    As a god of justice and punishment of wrong-doers, Tyr directs his servants to find the wicked and bring them to justice.

    Our character is a bit of an extremist who takes this directive to any means necessary short of killing/harming innocents.
    His noble intentions and acts of care for the commonfolk have helped to preserve the righteous protector feel of the Paladin class, even as his butchery of enemies makes the party occaisionally squeamish. :3

    THis is in contrast to a regular Paladin, who would be ALL about second chances, redemption, mercy or honorable quick deaths, etc.

    I haven't played Ancient paladins, but I imagine something like a Fey knight - devoted to the ideals or persona of their patron. Indeed, I view them more like martial warlocks than classic paladins in terms of fluff/RP.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    things from different settings have different meanings, my dude.
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    I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet

    "What are you smiling about?" it says

    "hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"

    the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*

    "Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."

    *barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*


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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Just pretend the class is called 'Oath Warrior' or whatever and not paladin. If that solves your problem, I would argue we don't have a problem

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Vengeance Paladin can be a real paladin... but then, so can a War Cleric, some Fighter/Cleric multiclass, pure Fighter, or, heck, even certain Rogues. But they don't have to be... in my world, paladin is a title you must deserve, not a description of a package of mechanical features. The title brings certain expectations and obligations, but it doesn't matter what path exactly you take to reach that title.

    That said, Arthas is perfect example of Vengeance paladin going too far and turning to Oathbreaker after he fulfilled his Oath.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    It mostly depends how it is played, some Vengeance Paladin may be more of a Paladin than a Devotion Paladin for many (a Devotion can be seen as a Cleric by the people around).

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by HermanTheWize View Post
    Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil. I choose the greater evil.

    Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

    My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.

    If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

    I am the one willing to question authority, to do what I know is right.

    I am vengeance.
    I am the night.

    I am Batman!

    Sorry, couldn't help myself.

    I see a vengeance paladin ass the "gray guard" of 5e. They might have even started out as Devotion paladins, but along the way, they saw the reality. They saw evil could not be defeated with rose colored glasses, but ones that may or may not need to be stained in blood. They know that evil will do what it can and as such, vengeance paladins are trusted to walk a far more dangerous line between dying a hero or seeing themselves become the villain.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    For me, this will always be what a 'real' paladin is.

    I don't really have an issue with alternative paladins, in a lot of ways I see it as ways to play things like the Paladin of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter or the Blackguard which were always popular choices.

    In settings without a cosmic force of good or where divinity is more vague then 'god/not-god', these alternative paladins make a lot of sense. If there are no spells or magic to clearly indicate who is good and who is not, there are going to be people who take power and use it for morally questionable means. If that's a theme of the game, the WoW paladin has no place because power can and will corrupt, which is a pretty damn common theme in fantasy.

    In settings where divinity is less clear, the idea of fey, devils or even genies making paladins makes sense. Divinity won't always be clear to mortals, which is also another common theme. What is a god? Will this powerful entity try to rise to god hood? That is probably a good chunk of modules! Why would a being on the cusp of achieving divinity or having surpassed the gods NOT make holy knights?

    Also in settings where the gods are more animistic or concerned with fertility/nature, the Oath of the Ancients is a pretty good choice for flavor. In Forgotten Realms, even in 3.5, becoming a paladin of Chauntea was an option. I think Ehlonna is NG and I don't think Greyhawk ever had restrictions on making paladins of her for third edition. So nature paladins has been a viable option for a while now.

    I am also amused that not only does the cleric not have to worry about the baggage of alignment restrictions, no one seems to bat an eye at fey clerics or clerics of devils.

    EDIT: WOW has also given us demon corrupted crusaders using holy powers to commit evil, and a dying race killing a being of pure goodness to steal holy powers. Both of which seem like a good fit for the whole Vengeance thing, since one is obsessed with reclaiming their lands, and the others reclaiming their magic.
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2017-05-18 at 04:55 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    I'm glad 5e gave us different types of Paladins to play with. So much more interesting than being limited to a single, one-dimensional view of a class.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Say you're given a child to hold, and you get a vision telling you that if this child reaches adulthood it will bring about the holocaust; it's Hitler, or Pol Pot, or Lenin, or Mao, or Margaret Thatcher, or Donald Trump or whatever individual who causes such damage to the world. Are you trying to suggest that a Devotion Paladin is going to allow that to happen, while a Vengeance Paladin would go all Gregor Clegane on the child?
    You should have quit while you were ahead and not let your bias show, as perhaps I'm showing mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    In forgotten realms, all Paladins, per SCAG, subscribe to an additional set of Tenets to one degree or another. IMO some of those tenets class clash with the Vengeance tenets. I think it'd be very hard for a vengeance paladin in that setting to maintain his tenets. They're very strongly oriented to a 'classical' D&D Paladin, clearly deriving from what would have gone hand in hand with LG alignment concepts in previous versions.

    So for FR, you kinda have a point. For any generic PHB only setting, you're wrong, at least as far as 5e goes. Because the PHB defines what a real Paladin is, and that includes Ancients and Vengeance Paladins.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-05-18 at 06:16 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    You know what annoys me? The only Paladin I see at the AL tables is the Vengeance Paladin. People can't see past the easy advantage to the awesome options of the others.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    You know what annoys me? The only Paladin I see at the AL tables is the Vengeance Paladin. People can't see past the easy advantage to the awesome options of the others.
    Give them time. After testing it for a while they might see that they are probably overestimating it.
    (That said I dont play AL myself)
    Personally I like vengeance plays for the bad cop feel they give me, but I am not a huge fan of their mechanics (ie vow of enmity).
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-05-18 at 06:30 PM.
    Hacks!

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Personally, I wouldn't play a vengeance paladin because they're just not very paladin like. In my mind, the point of the paladin is doing what's right, even when doing what is right is impossible. When you give the paladin a trolley problem he doesn't choose to run over one person or let it run over five, he jumps in front of it and prays for the strength to stop the trolley. When you give the paladin baby Hitler and a prophecy he tries to redeem Hitler, prophecy or not. His job is not to do the most just and noble thing that he thinks he reasonably can, his job is to be more just and noble than the world allows.

    There are lots of ways to interpret that but the vengeance paladin seems too far off the path to me, so I wouldn't play them as a paladin.

    Also, based on my experience at least, it's the CN of paladins, this time with more self-righteousness. What I mean by that is that people play vengeance paladins when they want to do whatever they want to and then let the party deal with the the damage that causes, then say "Well it says right here in my oath that I don't give a crap about working together so I'm just playing my character, deal with it." Devotion paladins can also be played like this, but at least they're less destructive.

    Perhaps it can be done well, both as a paladin and as a team player but I think it does more harm than good as a class.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    I see Vengeance Paladins as the stereotypical It's Evil I Kill It variety. They're going after the demons, devils, chromatic dragons, and undead with side quests against drow, mindflayers, and beholders. Orcs and goblins are just the preliminaries to gain the training (i.e. XP) needed to take on the true enemies. When the Vengeance Paladin is on the scene negotiations are over. They can still be all peace, love, and granola when not in battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Oh Bahamut! I hate these Sacred Cows! I used to not like Paladins because I always thought they were too nice, even when they were being badasses!

    Now with VENGEANCE Paladins, we can be Holy Judge Dredds!

    I also hate humans, and in the age of ancients with grey crags, archtrees and thac0 (also known as AD&D), only humans could be paladins...

    But now, we can have Dragonborn Vengeance Paladins of Bahamut for the glory of the Dragonkind! Death to Tiamat and her spawn!

    We can also be fabulous elven paladins that hunt those man hating drow bitches, we can be paladins of civilization deities that hunt those tree hugging hippies, we can be kalashtar capitalist palandins that hunt those "child eating" "hooved" inspired, you can be someone who hunts <insert anyone that you would like to kill in real life but you can't>!

    OH THIS HATRED! IT FEELS SO GOOD!
    Last edited by DragonSorcererX; 2017-05-18 at 07:43 PM.
    Pardon me for any weird things, I have schizophrenia.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Warcraft is D&D?

    Paladins have changed in every edition. OP points to palaonds "when 3.5 was in full effect"

    Paladins had to be lawful good then.

    Paladins are no longer restricted to a LG alignment. They no longer have a 17 CHA requirement.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    I've pointed out before that a lot of times, the arguments about the various paladins all result from all the connotations that have become associated with the word "paladin" and that if the class had been called something else altogether, it probably wouldn't have as many arguments.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    I mean, if you want to get technical, a "real paladin" is one of the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne's court. Not a Devotion paladin, not an Ancients paladin, not a Vengeance paladin, not an AD&D 1e or 2e paladin, and certainly not a World of Warcraft character.

    EDIT: And TBH, Vengeance actually kinda fits them a bit better than Devotion, since a lot of their schtick was fighting their "sworn enemies," the Saracens and the traitor Ganelon. Oath of the Crown would be the closest conceptually.
    Last edited by JAL_1138; 2017-05-18 at 08:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    No one refers to characters by their meta classes in game anyway so it doesn't really matter. Vengeance paladin would just be "that bounty hunter dude who can explode things with his sword"

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    ...the connotations that have become associated with the word "paladin"...
    A D&D Paladin is based on Holger Carlsen A.K.A. Ogier the Dane from the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Perfectly O.K. If I read the fluff right (1e and 5e only, I don't know the other editions well enough) the important part is that their inspired to do good. As to how important the source of the inspiration (faith, family honor, nation etc.)? Yeah that's probably way too real world to get into here (PM me if you want to know my baseless speculations).
    As to why so many seem prejudiced against Paladins? Hmmm..well in Oe terms while the Cleric started out as sort of undead fighting specialists, they quickly became the party healers, whereas Paladins have always wielded swords and have been sworn to fight Evil. Maybe too many PC's are anxious about what side of the line between good and evil they actually are? Also the 1e Paladin was limited in how much wealth they could retain, which could not be given away to other PC's and people often resent when altruism is directed "outside the tribe".
    Of the three types of 5e Paladins? Well the Devotion Paladin can't lie or cheat, so maybe there's friction when the party wants to fool/trick the bad guys. The Ancients Paladin? Well really, unless you insist on being miserable I really don't see why anyone who was not actually evil would object to them except for...The Vengeance Paladin. Really while I can see why so many raised on Batman and Charles Bronson want to play them, their whole "fight my sworn foes, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST!", is kind of douche. If anyone's going to resist the Ancients Paladins mission to "Kindle the Light" it's them.

    O. K. I think you know more about the subject than me but if you can spare the time, here are some non D&D world films that shape my view of what a "Paladin" is"
    Billy Budd,
    The Grapes of Wrath,
    Saving Private Ryan;
    Schindlers List, and
    Selma (all are probably emotionally PG and R movies).
    O.K. for more DnD like worlds, you've probably seen or read LotR.
    Don't look at Aragorn, Frodo or Gandalf.
    Look again at Sam, humble Sam.
    And if you haven't seen it (don't watch this with young kids, I was 12 or 13),

    Excalibur!

    Did you see it? Take notes?
    Not Arthur, not Lancelot, certainly not Gawain (in this movie and Malory, "Gawain and the Green Knight" is another story),
    Percival.
    The one who achieved the Grail.
    That's a Paladin!
    Does that help?


    Spoiler: A better example
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    You want a real Paladin? You want a symbol of Law and Good, a representation of justice, compassion, and mercy, a pillar of strength, an upright gentleman, and a truly decent soul?

    Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird. For best results, see the 1962 film starring Gregory Peck.

    Good father. Pillar of the community. Moral man in a corrupt world. Educated man in a backwards time. Standing tall in the face of adversity, advocating for justice and compassion.

    For a generation of people, Atticus Finch represented what it meant to be a good father, a good lawyer, a good citizen, a good human being. He was a paragon of virtue and principle.

    That's a Paladin.


    Now as far as Paladins from history (Charlemagne's retinue) slayers of Saracens and Saxons
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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    I tend to define classes more by their broad concept than by their abilities. Paladins in D&D don't resemble the Peers or Arthurian Knights in ability (I don't recall Lancelot ever shooting lightning bolts from his sword, or possessing miraculous healing powers), but Devotion Paladins do seem to resemble them in code. If I wanted to play an Arthurian Knight, Fighter and Devotion Paladin would be the first places I'd look. (edit: I forgot about Oath of the Crown because I don't really own anything beyond the core books)

    But, D&D has taken old concepts and given them new perspective. Oath of Ancients may be a deviation from what was expected in previous editions, but it takes the concept of an Oath and finds new territory. I can appreciate a bit of a spin, and I've actually just rolled up an Oath of Ancients Paladin just to give it a go. The character still has a slight Arthurian bent, actually; but the source of his power comes somewhat from the service of a benevolent Fey patron. He does what's good and righteous, but in more of an intuitive sense than something so structured as you'd expect from Oath of Devotion, and has a strong love for natural beings of the forest. I like referring to him more as a Green Knight than a Paladin, though.

    Oath of Vengeance is another deviation from the norm. I actually don't like it. It feels too Grim-Dark too me. Nevertheless, it grants another alternative in the realm of Guys Who Fight With Swords For Sworn Causes for the people who want it. You can still evoke popular literature and folklore with other class archetypes like this; actually, I think we've got it now so that we can cover more of those areas.

    Because I'm not fond of them, and nobody has ever played one at my table, I've never thought of whether or not I'd qualify an Oath of Vengeance Paladin as a Paladin. I'd probably sooner call them Black Knights. But, you can call them whatever you want. For broad classification purposes, Oath of Vengeance Paladin is fine. If in your game you and your players want to say they're Not Real Paladins, then do it. You and your friends should decide how your game deals with that kind of stuff.

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins


    Let me see if I got it right (because this was the subject of my philosophy class and I passed on philosophy without doing nothing more than a text saiyng that philosophy was hippie bull****, wich the teacher didn't read):

    Person A: "No paladin is a badass edgy murderhobo."
    Person B: "But in 5e they can be."
    Person A: "No TRUE paladin is a badass edgy murderhobo."

    So, what Person A is saying is a load of crap, yes?
    Last edited by DragonSorcererX; 2017-05-18 at 09:39 PM.
    Pardon me for any weird things, I have schizophrenia.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Specter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    You're getting caught up in only one side of the semantics of what's a paladin. A paladin could be a guy in heavy armor. Or someone chivalrous. Or a divine warrior. Or someone favored by the gods. Or someone who fights honoring a god's way. Or all of them.

    Older editions don't mean anything, because otherwise you would have elves as a class, not a race, and rogues would be the only ones who could find traps. "Yeah, but..." But nothing. You either take the argument all the way, or you don't take it anywhere.

    According to 5e, a paladin is a divine warrior bound by an oath. And that's it.
    Last edited by Specter; 2017-05-18 at 09:39 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Vengeance Paladins are not real Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    A D&D Paladin is based on Holger Carlsen A.K.A. Ogier the Dane from the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions.





    Now as far as Paladins from history (Charlemagne's retinue) slayers of Saracens and Saxons


    Honest Tiefling
    is pretty much right
    Three Hearts and Three Lions! Flashback. Yeah that would have been a Paladin to me when the concept was introduced in the OD&D supplement. Always sad that book disappeared during the divorce. Great fantasy story for that time.

    And the 17 CH always seemed hokey but YMMV.
    With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.

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