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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    VariSami's Avatar

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    Default Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Hello,

    While I have ran a few 5e campaigns after moving from 3.5, I have only played in a single campaign and will start playing in another campaign next week. My only character thus far was... *whistles* Okay, it was a Sailor Half-Elf Lore Bard. I wanted to test Half-Elves and Bards in the new edition since they had been powered up, and the Sailor bit was actually just because I enjoyed the idea of testing a seafarer. Honestly, I only learned how that is basically every casual optimiser's first character in this edition afterwards.

    Back to the topic. So, I have limited experience with the system as a player. However, having delved very deep to 3.5, this edition just seems very shallow mechanically (as a player). Personally, I enjoy mechanically interesting and deep builds even if they are not necessarily optimal. As such, I would be interested in some ideas on builds with synergistic and preferably widely applicable abilities. The idea is a bit hard to explain but I do not like one trick ponies - builds which can only do one thing well and which apply that to everything. When I say widely applicable abilities, I mean something a bit more like looting (draw a card and then discard a card) effects in Magic: the Gathering. That simple ability is so general that it interacts with a very wide set of other effects which provides a kind of emergent mechanical depth when multiple such abilities or a few alongside a variety of more niche abilities with payoffs come together.

    The game in question has been described as Out of the Abyss with modifications and we start at level 2. I have no idea about the rest of the party yet and I would like to at least try and be a team player so having a few options would be optimal.

    Some ideas I have been mulling over include:

    Goliath Great Fey Tomelock:
    Honestly, this was more of a concept I thought up when I wrongly remembered Shillelagh as stacking rather than replacing the ability scores for attacks. This was more of a story idea, where the Goliath would have been born with no markings/destiny and had made a pact with a coven of hags where the tome would have been a kind of necklace or set of prayer beads made using symbolically appropriate things to represent the spells absorbed from scrolls (e.g. an old elf's ear for Comprehend Languages).

    Kobold Swashbuckler Rogue:
    Kobold has a few interesting abilities and sunlight sensitivity is likely to be less of a problem in the Underdark. What interests me most is the interaction between Pack Tactics and the Swashbuckler's manoeuvrability plus widened spread of sneak attack opportunities. I also just kind of like this idea of a wretch of a dirty fighting 'duelist' which plays up the grovelling aspect of kobolds since it subverts the notion of swashbuckler's as suave.

    Fallen Aasimar Oath of the Ancients Paladin:
    No, this is not because as my profile pic shows, I can seem like an edgelord at times. Rather, I was interested in Paladins, Oath of the Ancients seemed the most interesting, and I wanted to see if Aasimars' daily nova could be worth the spent action. Not only did Fallen Aasimar interest me most mechanically but I also thought it would be worthwhile to explore a character who is genuinely good but whose 'fall' was because they thought they should be free to express their morality rather than the tenets of the divine will. The idea for the nova I have is more of an Aura of Emptiness or Sorrow - it causes existential dread and the reason is the severed but essential connection to the divine. (Okay, fine - it sounds pretty damn edgy, I get it. But it is not about simply the aesthetic but more about the philosophical ideas.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Joestar (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
    OH! MY! GOD!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    If it's a diverse skill set and mechanically interesting, while being very much a team-player...I can heartily recommend Thief Rogue/Wolf Totem Barbarian. As a build, it starts taking off from about level 3 (Barbarian 1/Rogue 2) and doesn't really slow down with gaining interesting features until...well, ever.

    To explain;

    1st level; Barbarian. You get 12hp, the oh-so-precious Con Save proficiency, all Martial weapons (more on that later) and Medium Armour (if you don't fancy going nekkid, which is also an option/back-up plan).

    Level 2; Rogue. You get Sneak Attack and Expertise. Athletics is a must, because it opens up grapples and shoves as a completely viable option. Where Rage gave you Advantage on these things, Expertise makes you better than, well, anyone. The additional Skill proficiency and Thieves Tools gives you more options and spotlight time.

    Level 3; Rogue. Cunning Action means you can do what yoy want, when you want, wherever you want to do it. Rock on, this is when the build really gets fun, because almost no-one can say "no" to whatever it is you're doing.

    Level 4+; Options. From here on you have some choices to make, none of which are bad:

    - Taking another level of Rogue (going Thief), you get Fast Hands, which means you can put that awesome Athletics score to food use wrecking terrain and manipulating the battlefield...as a Bonus Action. Do not underestimate the power and utility of this. If you go down this route, you probably want to stick with Rogue for a couple of levels to get that ASI and Uncanny Dodge to increase your tankiness. Staying the course to Rogue 7 for Evasion may also be worth it, to weather the friendly AoE's your party members are going to be throwing around by that time.

    - Alternatively, go Barbarian. Reckless Attack means every attack is a Sneak Attack. Pursuing this route to Barbarian 5 for Wolf Totem (your allies will love you for giving them Advantage just for standing next to their target) and Extra Attack (if DPR is of any concern to you) is probably the "optimal" route. Having said that, getting to character level 6 as Rogue 3/Barbarian 3 isn't a bad character and has all the tools you want for an absolute blast of a gaming experience.


    Race:

    V.Human is definitely your go-to for this. I recommend Shield Master as your Bonus Feat. Whilst it "competes" with Cunning Action for your Bonus Action, it's another option available on your turn. Starting as a Barbarian, the bonus on Dex Saves to make up for your lack of Proficiency is nice and tasty. It also takes the pressure off of main-lining Rogue for Evasion.

    Dwarves make really good Barbarian/Rogues too. The Bonus Con helps with the tanking (and don't mistake; thisnis a tank build) and if you go Hill Dwarf you'll have even more HP. Resistance to Poison means your HP go even further and helps immensely against traps, which a Rogue, you may encounter more of than most characters). Darkvision doesn't hurt and Stonecunning is an interesting ability to have with the right GM. More Tool profs don't hurt either (More options! More spotlight!). Going Dwarf will delay getting Shield Master though.

    Half-Orc also works; tanky, strong, intimidatin'. What's not to like?


    Feats:

    Shield Master - As I mention above, this feat is your first go-to because it just opens up a ton of combat utility, both active and passive, offensivd and defensive.

    Sentinel - Your next ASI goes on Sentinel. Not only does it increase the odds of getting more Sneak Attack (on OA's), but solidifies your role as a Tank.


    Stats, Equipment and the rest:

    Str>Dex>Con>Wis=Cha=Int

    One-Handed Finesse Weapon (I recommend a Whip; the additional Reach gives you a much greater "presence" on the battlefield and Sneak Attack and Rage mitigates the lower damage die to the point of insignificance).

    Breastplate Armour (when you can afford it) and Shield.

    Pack some back-up finesse, ranged and/or light weapons. Dual wielding is always an option, as is chucking a knife/axe/dart. Don't feel too obligated about the special weapon features; you're super-buff and are using Str to attack, not Dex; you can lug a Maul with you for kicks (and skeleton smashing) if you really want.

    Background: Take your pick. I like Outlander, for a more outdoorsy feel with Survival proficiency, but it's just a personal preference. Entertainer (Gladiator) could also work well with this build, for the "exotic" weapon prof, if you wanted to go Rogue at 1st level (if you want an extra Skill prof more than the HP and Con Save proficiency).
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    If it's a diverse skill set and mechanically interesting, while being very much a team-player...I can heartily recommend Thief Rogue/Wolf Totem Barbarian. As a build, it starts taking off from about level 3 (Barbarian 1/Rogue 2) and doesn't really slow down with gaining interesting features until...well, ever.

    To explain;

    1st level; Barbarian. You get 12hp, the oh-so-precious Con Save proficiency, all Martial weapons (more on that later) and Medium Armour (if you don't fancy going nekkid, which is also an option/back-up plan).

    Level 2; Rogue. You get Sneak Attack and Expertise. Athletics is a must, because it opens up grapples and shoves as a completely viable option. Where Rage gave you Advantage on these things, Expertise makes you better than, well, anyone. The additional Skill proficiency and Thieves Tools gives you more options and spotlight time.

    Level 3; Rogue. Cunning Action means you can do what yoy want, when you want, wherever you want to do it. Rock on, this is when the build really gets fun, because almost no-one can say "no" to whatever it is you're doing.

    Level 4+; Options. From here on you have some choices to make, none of which are bad:

    - Taking another level of Rogue (going Thief), you get Fast Hands, which means you can put that awesome Athletics score to food use wrecking terrain and manipulating the battlefield...as a Bonus Action. Do not underestimate the power and utility of this. If you go down this route, you probably want to stick with Rogue for a couple of levels to get that ASI and Uncanny Dodge to increase your tankiness. Staying the course to Rogue 7 for Evasion may also be worth it, to weather the friendly AoE's your party members are going to be throwing around by that time.

    - Alternatively, go Barbarian. Reckless Attack means every attack is a Sneak Attack. Pursuing this route to Barbarian 5 for Wolf Totem (your allies will love you for giving them Advantage just for standing next to their target) and Extra Attack (if DPR is of any concern to you) is probably the "optimal" route. Having said that, getting to character level 6 as Rogue 3/Barbarian 3 isn't a bad character and has all the tools you want for an absolute blast of a gaming experience.


    Race:

    V.Human is definitely your go-to for this. I recommend Shield Master as your Bonus Feat. Whilst it "competes" with Cunning Action for your Bonus Action, it's another option available on your turn. Starting as a Barbarian, the bonus on Dex Saves to make up for your lack of Proficiency is nice and tasty. It also takes the pressure off of main-lining Rogue for Evasion.

    Dwarves make really good Barbarian/Rogues too. The Bonus Con helps with the tanking (and don't mistake; thisnis a tank build) and if you go Hill Dwarf you'll have even more HP. Resistance to Poison means your HP go even further and helps immensely against traps, which a Rogue, you may encounter more of than most characters). Darkvision doesn't hurt and Stonecunning is an interesting ability to have with the right GM. More Tool profs don't hurt either (More options! More spotlight!). Going Dwarf will delay getting Shield Master though.

    Half-Orc also works; tanky, strong, intimidatin'. What's not to like?


    Feats:

    Shield Master - As I mention above, this feat is your first go-to because it just opens up a ton of combat utility, both active and passive, offensivd and defensive.

    Sentinel - Your next ASI goes on Sentinel. Not only does it increase the odds of getting more Sneak Attack (on OA's), but solidifies your role as a Tank.


    Stats, Equipment and the rest:

    Str>Dex>Con>Wis=Cha=Int

    One-Handed Finesse Weapon (I recommend a Whip; the additional Reach gives you a much greater "presence" on the battlefield and Sneak Attack and Rage mitigates the lower damage die to the point of insignificance).

    Breastplate Armour (when you can afford it) and Shield.

    Pack some back-up finesse, ranged and/or light weapons. Dual wielding is always an option, as is chucking a knife/axe/dart. Don't feel too obligated about the special weapon features; you're super-buff and are using Str to attack, not Dex; you can lug a Maul with you for kicks (and skeleton smashing) if you really want.

    Background: Take your pick. I like Outlander, for a more outdoorsy feel with Survival proficiency, but it's just a personal preference. Entertainer (Gladiator) could also work well with this build, for the "exotic" weapon prof, if you wanted to go Rogue at 1st level (if you want an extra Skill prof more than the HP and Con Save proficiency).
    I also would recommend the Barbarian Rogue, alternative choices are Bear at level 3 for the damage resistance, and Goliath or Bugbear.

    Goliath is a more "user" friendly choice, which gets athletics as a given proficiency, +2 str +1 con, and powerful build.. and grappling and shoving are different ways of Lifting/Dragging/or Pushing. so it may be applicable. A decent defensive ability and more socially accepted.

    Bugbear is more mechanically offensively optimized than goliath, and has useful features with +2 str, and +1 dex, but comes with the much sought after darkvision, stealth as a proficiency, 5ft extra reach, the same powerful build, and an extra 2d6 on a surprise attack once per combat, which is decently useful. This one is more difficult because of the in game social stigmas.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Hmmm, the two of you make a good case for the Bar/Rog. I had tried avoiding multi-classing during the planning stage since I do not know which rules the DM is going to allow (however, SCAG and Volo's have been defined as available but under DM discretion). I will look into the abilities mentioned such as those of the Thief (which I had honestly just been ignoring). If I can sneak it past him, I will likely go Bugbear since that was actually one of the races I was interested in playing when I first started thinking of a character. Just the extra reach on the offence is one of those abilities that potentially have surprisingly extensive effects on the space of possibilities available to the character.

    I had also forgotten how funny the fact that you *can* use Str with Finesse weapons to get both the benefit of Sneak Attack and Reckless Attack is. I will have to think of the Barbarian Path (since I will likely at least try to go 5 levels deep for the extra attack) I want most, since I know how good the Bear Totem is but I do not enjoy the fact that it is just obviously the best choice to the extent that no matter what the rest of your build looks like, the rest will be unable to compete.

    Thanks for the ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Joestar (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
    OH! MY! GOD!

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by VariSami View Post
    since I know how good the Bear Totem is but I do not enjoy the fact that it is just obviously the best choice to the extent that no matter what the rest of your build looks like, the rest will be unable to compete.
    By no means is this the case. Bear Totem is great, no doubt, but it's not the clear outlier you seem to think it is. All Barbarians resist B/P/S damage in Rage, all Bear does is add the other types (bar Psychic). How often do you face non-B/P/S damage in your average session? How often are you likely to be standing next to a foe when your ally attacks it? If the latter number is higher than the first, that's how much more frequently Wolf Totem is seeing use compared to Bear.

    Now add Evasion. Most non-B/P/S damage you see will be from AoE...which come Rogue 7, you can largely ignore. If it comes from a more direct attack; Uncanny Dodge. For the Barbarian/Rogue, Bear Totem isn't just a little dull (it's entirely passive), it's actually somewhat sub-optimal because of the large amount of overlap it presents with other features.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    By no means is this the case. Bear Totem is great, no doubt, but it's not the clear outlier you seem to think it is. All Barbarians resist B/P/S damage in Rage, all Bear does is add the other types (bar Psychic). How often do you face non-B/P/S damage in your average session? How often are you likely to be standing next to a foe when your ally attacks it? If the latter number is higher than the first, that's how much more frequently Wolf Totem is seeing use compared to Bear.

    Now add Evasion. Most non-B/P/S damage you see will be from AoE...which come Rogue 7, you can largely ignore. If it comes from a more direct attack; Uncanny Dodge. For the Barbarian/Rogue, Bear Totem isn't just a little dull (it's entirely passive), it's actually somewhat sub-optimal because of the large amount of overlap it presents with other features.
    Making an excellent point. I didn't think about the overlap of uncanny dodge and evasion as much as I should have.

    I would have to ask, though I think it unlikely. Would Bear at level 6 stack with powerful build? It is not a direct combat related thing, but having the ability to lift/pull/drag quadruple the weight capacity of a human would be incredibly amusing.


    A lot of interesting mechanics come from multiclassing. Examples are Warlock/Shadow monk. cast darkness and you can see through it with devil Sight.

    Shadow monk/Rogue. Best hiding capabilities means more sneak attacks.

    Battle master Fighter/ UA Revised-Spell-less Ranger. Combines two non exclusive mechanically UA on the ranger. Take only up to 4 levels, deepstalker being a good one but so is hunter. The Spell-less variant nets you two more maneuvers and 4 more superiority dice, as well as a second fighting style and the probably overpowered for a level 1 Natural Explorer.

    Barbarian/Champion Fighter: Can get some big and/or consistent crits. if you are an elf or half elf, and can take the UA feat Elven Accuracy, it improves even further.

    Wizard or Sorc/War or Tempest Cleric, or Knowledge cleric: Can get heavy armor and martial weapons, knowledge is best on the wizard because of their high INT, but also channel divinities that are useful.

    Another interesting build, to me is Yuanti Bear Barbarian, or Ancient Paladin.

    This is assuming of course, that if you have to roll for something to halve damage, and you have resistance you take 1/4 damage.

    Yuanti Pureblood gets magic resist, which is advantage on all saves vs spells. Many of these cause half damage.

    Bear barbarian gets resistance to all except psychic,

    and Ancient Paladin gets resistance to all spell damage. Bonus, it uses CHA as the main stat

    That and an emotionless Yuanti Barbarian raging is amusing to me.

    Paladin meshes well with Sorc(more slot/higher level spells) and Warlock(best cantrip, higher level slots on short cooldown). If UA is available, consider Hexblade Warlock.

    start with a 6 paladin/12 caster split.

    In these two builds you must decide if you want 13/14 Warlock or Sorc, or 7/8 Paladin. 14 is when they get their final Archetype feature, and 13 is their 7th level spell. 7 is the Warding Aura, or Cha to damage if you can take Oathbreaker. 8 is the ASI.
    Last edited by Khrysaes; 2017-05-22 at 07:00 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    The Drow Coffee Lock (Warlock 1/Sorcerer 2) starts at 3rd level - feed your warlock spells into spell slots every short rest, and never sleep (only meditate) and every long rest = 4 short rests.

    Note that All other races can do this at Warlock 2/Sorcerer 2 if they pick Fae patron and the UA invocation Aspect of the Moon, where you don't even need to meditate - so long rest = 8 short rests.

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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Not optimized but fun flavor:
    Gnome wizard who used to make their own acid type drug and now does acid damage (acid splash and similar spells) but also had a weird psychic connection to the world from former LSD trips (detect thoughts and crown of madness and other similar spells)

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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Open Hand Monk 5/Rogue X. Expertise allows for grapples and shoves. Stun means auto grapple. Multiple attacks allows for multiple attempts to grapple or shove. Use the unarmed attacks to grapple and weapon attacks to Sneak Attack. You are fast and mobile on a battlefield. Booming Blade can add more damage or control. It makes for a character that doesn't run out of resources quickly other than Ki, but you don't need Ki to function.

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    Default Re: Practical, Mechanically Interesting Low Level Builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    The Drow Coffee Lock (Warlock 1/Sorcerer 2) starts at 3rd level - feed your warlock spells into spell slots every short rest, and never sleep (only meditate) and every long rest = 4 short rests.
    You get 2 SP per short rest, which gives you a single 1st slot. Once you are sorcerer 3, you can get 1 SP + a single 2nd slot out of 2 short rests. You can get pretty far with a week of rest even if it isn't efficient.


    Draconic 3 / tomelock 3 can twin BB (using Cha) 4 times every short rest, and has the same trick. I'm partial to draconic 3 / swashbuckler 3 for the similar reasons.

    I second the barbarogue luchador.
    Last edited by bid; 2017-05-22 at 10:03 PM.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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