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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    S@tanicoaldo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togath View Post
    Statements like this bother me. As long as an animal isn't being hurt, I see no problem at all for training it. The fact is, if the animal doesn't mind(and a non-abused trained one really generally doesn't mind), why is it a bad thing?
    Is training a dog to fetch is bad? What about training a horse to be ridden? A chicken to play tic tac toe?
    (Also if "living beings should never entertain" is true, then what about humans? Is a dude doing non offensive stand-up comedy a bad thing?)
    Sure, let me put you on a cage and whip you to do silly and stupid tricks in front of an audience, whatever you want it or not.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Sure, let me put you on a cage and whip you to do silly and stupid tricks in front of an audience, whatever you want it or not.
    That isn't what Togath said. How about you answer his actual point? Well, at least that comment. Togath has said they didn't care about the abuse in another post.

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    That isn't what Togath said. How about you answer his actual point? Well, at least that comment. Togath has said they didn't care about the abuse in another post.
    Ok.

    -The fact is, if the animal doesn't mind(and a non-abused trained one really generally doesn't mind), why is it a bad thing?
    How can you tell if they mind or not, can you talk to animals? No? Oh well.

    -Is training a dog to fetch is bad? What about training a horse to be ridden? A chicken to play tic tac toe?
    That's different, is a form of affection, you are not using it to gain money.

    -Also if "living beings should never entertain" is true, then what about humans? Is a dude doing non offensive stand-up comedy a bad thing?
    It's not a bad thing as long as they are not forced to do it.
    Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2017-05-23 at 09:05 PM.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Ok.

    -The fact is, if the animal doesn't mind(and a non-abused trained one really generally doesn't mind), why is it a bad thing?
    How can you tell if they mind or not, can you talk to animals? No? Oh well.
    Because cats and dogs have evolved alongside humans since the dawn of our species and we've evolved to understand their body language and vocalizations insofar as them liking things and not liking things. Is there parity? No. But we're pretty good, as good as you'd expect really considering dogs and cats don't have human level intelligence and thus talking to them when they're not able to process the world like us is a really difficult task on its face.

    I know when my dog likes something. I know when it doesn't like something. It's as simple as a tail wag as opposed to it barking and running away. Like it does to the vacuum. You know my dog really likes? Treats. If it does a task and gets a treat, it's happy. It enjoys that. I know because of those body language things I mentioned. Guess how many treats it gets if it does it and earns me money? All the treats. My dog gets all the treats if it's a major method of me getting money. Not just treats but a huge back yard to run around in and other dog friends to play with. It reaps the benefits of our agreement. Better than me honestly, the dog can't book it's own shows or manage its career.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    -Is training a dog to fetch is bad? What about training a horse to be ridden? A chicken to play tic tac toe?
    That's different, is a form of affection, you are not using it to gain money.
    No kidding. Which is what Togath is asking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    -Also if "living beings should never entertain" is true, then what about humans? Is a dude doing non offensive stand-up comedy a bad thing?
    It's not a bad thing as long as they are not forced to do it.
    So if the animals enjoy performing and they're treated ethically there's no problem?

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    So if the animals enjoy performing and they're treated ethically there's no problem?
    No, because, first they can't decide for themselves and second you are profiting by the exploration of this animals who have no say if they want to spend their entire life doing tricks to amuse a bunch of humans. But nothing that I say will change your mind or opinion about me so why bother?
    Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2017-05-23 at 09:30 PM.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    No, because, first they can't decide for themselves and second you are profiting by the exploration of this animals who have no say if they want to spend their entire life doing tricks to amuse a bunch of humans.
    I think that's pretty judgmental of you. Are you saying animals are incapable of making choices? Because my dog makes choices all the time. It's not exploitation if the animal is enjoying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    But nothing that I say will change your mind or opinion about me so why bother?
    What are you talking about? I don't have an opinion about you...like at all...and even if I did what would that have to do with what you're saying? Don't you also think it's rather dishonest, when confronted with someone who disagrees with you, to immediately throw up your hands and act like the other party is being unreasonable? Because I sure think it is. If the facts are on your side, I'll change my mind. I already don't approve of the circus abusing animals. So I clearly am almost at your level.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    I think that's pretty judgmental of you. Are you saying animals are incapable of making choices? Because my dog makes choices all the time. It's not exploitation if the animal is enjoying it.
    Sure I bet your dog is a great source of empirical information. :p

    I bet he choose his owner, the lifestyle he has and the place he lives.

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    Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2017-05-23 at 09:47 PM.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Sure I bet your dog is a great source of empirical information. :p
    Well no, it's anecdotal but I didn't think we were holding ourselves in academic rigor here. Least of all because you've not given empirical data either.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    I bet he choose his owner, the lifestyle he has and the place he lives.
    He chose as much as I chose who my parents were. His lifestyle is FAR FAR better than it would be were he in the wild. Even with playing fetch and all the other things. He has a nice warm apartment to live in. He's not hunted by other wild animals. When he's sick he gets taken to the vet instead of suffering and probably dying. He gets to eat far far better than he would in the wild. On a consistent basis no less. Not only does he not have to worry about being hunted, he doesn't have to worry about hunting. Of course that's not EVERY dog but you acting like a domesticated animal is somehow worse off than their undomesticated peers just because they have to jump through some hoops is rather absurd.

    The reason I don't agree with you isn't because I'm just stubborn and obstinate. I don't agree with you because you're making terrible points and using terrible arguments to back them up. For the record.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
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    Yeah, my dog is neutered. It was done when he was a puppy? He has no memory of the event, no mental scarring, no nothing. You know what's the best part about my dog being neutered? Why I chose a dog who was over one who wasn't? The best part is he's not making puppies that don't need to be in this world. Because dogs are, sadly, not smart enough to not bone every available female they can. We have a massive problem with stray dogs and cats in the country I live in. I imagine you do too.

    I'd rather clip my dog than have thirty puppies who may or may not be able to find a home. And the ones who don't be put into shelters where they may or may not find a home. And if they can't do either of those things, they get killed. You're starting to sound less and less like someone who actually cares about animals and more and more like someone who just thinks humans are out to abuse them. Which you're fundamentally doing if you're serious about spaying and neutering your pets.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I'm sure that @Razade's dog had as much choice about that as I got to choose being born working-class in Oakland, California, or the starving millions around the world had a choice of their station in life.

    Oh wait...

    News flash!

    Most humans have little power either.

    But I'll bite, are you suggesting that the dog would be better off "wild and free", i.e. unsheltered and starving?
    Yeah, pretty much everything he's saying.
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-05-23 at 10:11 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    How can you tell if they mind or not, can you talk to animals? No? Oh well.
    Just wanted to point out that, unnecessary snark aside, we can actually communicate with animals pretty well. There have been studies ([[REDACTED]]) that show that interspecies communication is totally a thing; dogs can recognize a ticked-off cat and will react differently to the same command given in different tones of voice, rats make a sound that is recognizably laughter -- once pitched down enough that we can hear it -- when you tickle them, cats do know we want them to do things and just don't care, and the list goes on and on. Heck, we can tell when elephants are mourning their dead and watch their family relationships evolve.

    So yes, actually, we can talk to animals. Not precisely enough to discuss philosophy, perhaps, but if you're going to argue that we should stop working with animals altogether because nobody can tell what they're feeling, you are demonstrably wrong. You might not be able to talk to animals (although if you can't, how do you know they don't like being abused?), but people better-informed about animal behavior can certainly tell the difference between a happy animal having fun performing tricks and one that's been abused into doing things and there's no real reason to immediately discount people's intuition on the matter given the studies I described above.

    As it happens, I don't like the use of animals in circus-type performances, let alone at places like Seaworld; it is absolutely the case that the economics trumps the animals' welfare way too often. I don't think that means that it's never okay to train them, though, even to perform tricks -- and I'm hopeful that as our ability to communicate with animals becomes more sophisticated, we can find more equitable ways of interacting with them, and perhaps there will be something like a circus again.
    Last edited by Trekkin; 2017-05-28 at 12:46 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    There have been studies (which I know you don't believe in, S@tanicoaldo, but the rest of the Playground might)
    Wait what? What are these studies and why does S@tanicoaldo not believe in them?

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Wait what? What are these studies and why does S@tanicoaldo not believe in them?
    Dogs have body language: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4494300/
    Dogs understand tones of voice: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6303/1030
    Tickled rats laugh: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/6313/757
    Elephants mourn: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617198/
    Dogs recognize faces: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0143047
    Cats recognize faces: http://link.springer.com/article/10....071-015-0927-4
    Sad baboons, just because: https://news.upenn.edu/news/baboons-...-among-friends
    Also, cats learn how to meow to get their owners, specifically, to do stuff: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12735363

    I'm away from my citations right now and this is totally not my field, but I hope my slapdash Googling has provided some indication of the kind of studies I mean: saying we can't talk to animals and therefore have no insight into their emotional state flies in the face of a growing body of scholarship.
    [[REDACTED BY REQUEST]]
    Last edited by Trekkin; 2017-05-28 at 12:46 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    That quote...makes my head hurt. Glad I'm a cool human and can communicate that pain in text. Sure does explain a whole heck of a lot though.
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-05-23 at 10:47 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    That quote...makes my head hurt. Glad I'm a cool human and can communicate that pain in text. Sure does explain a whole heck of a lot though.
    I'm not trying to explain anything except why I'm trying to use scientific papers (and a news article, apparently. eugh.) to refute the claims of someone who presumably wouldn't consider that a valid means of argumentation, because some people on these boards read the entirety of a post containing a quote of theirs as a response to them alone, they respond accordingly, and then the threads get hard for people to follow.

    My point remains, though: whatever value you assign to it, the science is there to suggest that animals can communicate emotions in ways we can recognize, and if you go look at the figures it's surprising how well our intuition about what a distressed animal looks like correlates with how animals communicate distress. In other words, if a dog looks happy to jump through some hoops, they're probably happy -- so I'm reluctant to say that all trained animals are miserable just because I can't get them to say how happy they are in English.
    Last edited by Trekkin; 2017-05-23 at 10:59 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    There's also the fact that modern ethical animal training follows the carrot approach rather than the stick approach. So if the animal really doesn't want to do the trick, it can presumably not perform the trick. It's just that it earns an extra reward for performing the desired trick.
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    I should also clarify... I am against abusing animals. I just view training(as long as it's stuff like what WarKitty described, where the training causes no harm*) as a perfectly fine acceptable thing to do. Especially because it is possible to tell if an animal is unhappy.

    *though harm in the form of something like "brief mild harmless zap from an electrically charged fence used to keep large animals(cattle, elephants) in/out of an area" is more okay since it's very brief mild thing that's much safer than the alternatives.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Everything of value that could be said about this topic has already been said. If I'm wrong, do let me know, but this tends to be the point where the thread just devolves into endless back-and-forth arguments of escalating pedantry and self-justification, and every important point is made until everyone is blue in the face.
    I do not think the way you think. If you try to apply your own mindset to the things I say, there will be miscommunications. If something I say seems odd to you or feels like it's missing steps, ask for clarification. I'm not some unreasonable, unknowable entity beyond your mortal comprehension, I'm just autistic and have memory problems.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    Everything of value that could be said about this topic has already been said. If I'm wrong, do let me know, but this tends to be the point where the thread just devolves into endless back-and-forth arguments of escalating pedantry and self-justification, and every important point is made until everyone is blue in the face.
    It's good that we've got you to referee for us Taffy.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    I believe that animals do have rights. Well very limited ones but they do have rights.

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    I think the biggest problem with "Oh they are happy so is fine" is that they have no frame of reference. They don't know what life is like without being slaves so they can't complain.

    Of curse you going to to be happy, you don't know any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    That isn't what Togath said. How about you answer his actual point? Well, at least that comment. Togath has said they didn't care about the abuse in another post.
    HER actual point. The venus symbol is also the female sign.
    Last edited by The Eye; 2017-05-24 at 08:14 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    Dogs have body language: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4494300/
    Dogs understand tones of voice: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6303/1030
    Tickled rats laugh: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/6313/757
    Elephants mourn: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617198/
    Dogs recognize faces: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0143047
    Cats recognize faces: http://link.springer.com/article/10....071-015-0927-4
    Sad baboons, just because: https://news.upenn.edu/news/baboons-...-among-friends
    Also, cats learn how to meow to get their owners, specifically, to do stuff: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12735363

    I'm away from my citations right now and this is totally not my field, but I hope my slapdash Googling has provided some indication of the kind of studies I mean: saying we can't talk to animals and therefore have no insight into their emotional state flies in the face of a growing body of scholarship.

    As to why S@tanicoaldo doesn't believe in them, I was referring to this recent post of theirs:



    Which would lead me to believe they wouldn't accept those as evidence. Other posters might, though.
    There are studies for this stuff? Couldn't just get themselves a pet? With the exception of wild animals, the rest is pretty damn evident, if you own a dog or a cat.
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    There are studies for this stuff? Couldn't just get themselves a pet? With the exception of wild animals, the rest is pretty damn evident, if you own a dog or a cat.
    But then people criticise the evidence as anecdotal and claim it doesn't count.

    Not to mention that some stuff that's "common knowledge" or "readily apparent" isn't actually true and it's taken rigorous study to debunk.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    But then people criticise the evidence as anecdotal and claim it doesn't count.

    Not to mention that some stuff that's "common knowledge" or "readily apparent" isn't actually true and it's taken rigorous study to debunk.
    I have to say I laughed though. The little miss is pretty darn clear when I'm supposed to stop screwing around on the computer and pet her.
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    There are studies for this stuff? Couldn't just get themselves a pet? With the exception of wild animals, the rest is pretty damn evident, if you own a dog or a cat.
    That's like, the whole point of science! To prove and disprove stuff no matter how obvious it may look.

    Just like at a time it was pretty damn evident the world was flat.
    Last edited by The Eye; 2017-05-24 at 08:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Excellent Chaotic Evil "roleplaying" The Eye. "The only people responsible for the welfare of or harm dealt to others are people who aren't me."
    "A clear horizon — nothing to worry about on your plate, only things that are creative and not destructive… I can’t bear quarreling, I can’t bear feelings between people — I think hatred is wasted energy, and it’s all non-productive." - Alfred Hitchcock

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    I think the biggest problem with "Oh they are happy so is fine" is that they have no frame of reference. They don't know what life is like without being slaves so they can't complain.

    Of curse you going to to be happy, you don't know any better.
    Question, do you have sufficient frame of reference to compare being raised as a neolithic hunter-gatherer to whatever upbringing you had? Can you say you're happier in your current life than you'd be in that one? Is it then fair to say that you're just a slave to modernity, because you lack the ability to make a meaningful comparison?
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    So many people here whould be ok with being pets to the more advanced alien overlords if they ever show up.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    So many people here whould be ok with being pets to the more advanced alien overlords if they ever show up.
    Probably. I mean given how easily the human brain is kept occupied with the various forms of entertainment we've already come up with, it's arguable we're essentially our own pets as it is. If the Zargons are smart, they won't bother fighting humanity for control of Earth, they'll just offer free hypernet access. Once the direct neural stimulation packages come online, nobody's throwing a war even if they wanted to. "Sorry sir, we were gonna show up for that whole battle thing, but the new season of Interactive Sex Gods just dropped, so everybody was, uh, in their bunks."
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Troll in the Playground
     
    FinnLassie's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    So many people here whould be ok with being pets to the more advanced alien overlords if they ever show up.
    I'm already a slave of modern technology. It's fun! All this artificial intelligence that is above my own level is giving me loads and loads of entertainment. It even lets me pick what I wanna watch out of all of the suggestions!
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac
    aah yes, alligators
    the most anime of creatures
    ~Extended Signature~

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    So many people here whould be ok with being pets to the more advanced alien overlords if they ever show up.

    Well...



    The 1988 film "They Live" had the ruling class actually being aliens in disguise.

    Also:


  29. - Top - End - #59
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    Just like at a time it was pretty damn evident the world was flat.
    Tangentially, I kinda wonder when that was, since the Earth has a round shadow during moon eclipses. Pre-Greek Mediterranean?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    S@tanicoaldo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey have closed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Tangentially, I kinda wonder when that was, since the Earth has a round shadow during moon eclipses. Pre-Greek Mediterranean?
    Sure, cause that's what normal people pay attention to during the eclipses.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning"

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