What are good Attack Bonuses for minions looking at PCs from levels 5 to 10?

[Coidzor]

So we're playing Dungeonkeeper in-game, and I'm trying to get a sense of what sort of minimum Attack Bonus for minions so that I can basically know if it'll be relevant or not going forward.

We just repelled a level party that was somewhere between 5th and 7th level and while I had some numbers wrong, several of the built-as-PCs adventurers we encountered were a lot harder to hit than I had expected, so I'm looking to update my understanding of what I should be aiming for.

Obviously, I'm not expecting the same minions to have relevant chances of hitting PCs at 5th level as at 10th level, but I'm looking for some benchmark numbers so that I can say that a minion has too low of a chance to hit to be a meaningful contributor to an encounter except to soak hits.

I'm aware of the Monster Statistics By CR Table, but that just tells me the expected CR based upon a creature's Attack Bonus.

I've also run into this set of benchmarks comparing three levels of Armor Class and the like against an average monster of each given CR for cases where PC's level = CR, but it's still coming at things from the opposite direction.

Should I be aiming for something like a minimum 25% chance to hit characters with a decent but non-tanky AC for mooks? 40%? It seems like for the most part mooks just aren't going to hit a PC that's focused on pumping AC, at least without targeting touch AC, CMD, or having some ability to force saves.

[Psyren]

Unchained has more detailed general monster stat tables - broken out by "combatant, expert, spellcaster." I would use those. You can also just lift statblocks wholesale from NPC Codex, Villain Codex etc. and just tweak the classes and items they have.

It seems like for the most part mooks just aren't going to hit a PC that's focused on pumping AC, at least without targeting touch AC, CMD, or having some ability to force saves.

Er... should they be? If a PC is pumping their AC, it sounds like their goal ISN'T to be hit, ESPECIALLY by mooks.

[Coidzor]

Unchained has more detailed general monster stat tables - broken out by "combatant, expert, spellcaster." I would use those. You can also just lift statblocks wholesale from NPC Codex, Villain Codex etc. and just tweak the classes and items they have.

If there were a way to hire, train, or make them, that'd be great to know about.

For the most part I'm limited to traps that I can afford, or make by casting spells, roleplaying and rolling for negotiations with the few nearby organizations that could supply hired muscle, a few tribes of primitive humanoids, undead that can be made with Animate Dead, whatever kinds of creatures I can purchase from nearby settlements, and whatever monsters and animals I can catch or attract from the nearby wilderness.

Er... should they be? If a PC is pumping their AC, it sounds like their goal ISN'T to be hit, ESPECIALLY by mooks.

Sure, their goal isn't to be hit very often, I was just surprised at how quickly CR 3 to 5 creatures can only hit on a nat 20 when attacking a guy in full plate with a shield and minimal magical investment into his AC.

It's probably because it's been ages since I've attacked a character built like a PC in this system and after coming back from having played 5e for a while, but it was a bit of a shock to find out how much difficulty even one of my heavier minions had hitting one of the adventurers raiding our dungeon, hence the thread.

[Eldaran]

AC is very easy to scale at low levels. A suit if Full Plate is giving 9 AC at level 2, and 14 AC at level 20. This makes up for how squishy a lot of characters are at low levels.

[Florian]

@Coidzor:

Regulars on this board simply seem to forget how damn efficient martial classes in the 5 to 12 level range are (and that most pregens or NPC use crappy builds).

Try to get you hands on some goblin alchemists and witches, a "Troop, Goblin" and a "Slithering Pit" (the later two are from Bestiary 6)

[Psyren]

Sure, their goal isn't to be hit very often, I was just surprised at how quickly CR 3 to 5 creatures can only hit on a nat 20 when attacking a guy in full plate with a shield and minimal magical investment into his AC.

This might be a communication issue; you said he was "focused on pumping AC" but I wouldn't consider basic "armor + shield" to meet that requirement. That is a bare minimum standard for most martial PCs, especially at 5+ when they can start affording things like Barkskin potions and a Ring of Protection.

Remember also that CR is different in 5e. In 5e, CR 7 means that creature is an appropriate challenge for a party of 7th-level PCs (5e DMG 274.) In 3.PF, CR 7 means that it won't be challenging for that party (CRB 397), and that a party will breeze through it with only a small amount of resources lost if that. You need a few of those, or something of higher CR, if you want it to be more than a speed bump. The problem gets worse if you're throwing a CR 7 encounter at them consisting of multiple lower-CR foes.

[Coidzor]

This might be a communication issue; you said he was "focused on pumping AC" but I wouldn't consider basic "armor + shield" to meet that requirement. That is a bare minimum standard for most martial PCs, especially at 5+ when they can start affording things like Barkskin potions and a Ring of Protection.

Remember also that CR is different in 5e. In 5e, CR 7 means that creature is an appropriate challenge for a party of 7th-level PCs (5e DMG 274.) In 3.PF, CR 7 means that it won't be challenging for that party (CRB 397), and that a party will breeze through it with only a small amount of resources lost if that. You need a few of those, or something of higher CR, if you want it to be more than a speed bump. The problem gets worse if you're throwing a CR 7 encounter at them consisting of multiple lower-CR foes.

Yeah, I misspoke, sorry. I was looking at some figures that were suggesting 28 AC at level 5 and was comparing that with how many of the things I can make can have attack bonuses of +13 and mixing that together with the actual experience at the table the other night.

I think mostly I underestimated the rate at which foes become less relevant, especially when capabilities jump up over the course of mid-levels. I'm getting a fair number of CR 1/3 to 2 creatures, both between what wild beasts/monsters I can catch and most of the undead I can make that aren't Necrocraft. Without catching or hunting down something like a Dire Bear, the strongest I can currently do are CR 5 Necrocraft or undead cows, and through what is effectively templating I can increase CR by 2-3 on paper for the undead I can make.

I guess with that handicap, I'm just going to have to try to swamp intruders or use them solely as bait/distractions for traps to do the real damage, since the enemies are only going to get higher level and/or more numerous from here on out.

[Florian]

@Coidzor:

I rather think you´ve forgotten what CR means for a PC. Equal CR = easy, CR +4 = hard.
In addition stuff like Animate Dead and Summon Monsters gets a bit over-hyped, as the critters you get are rarely better than simple bags of hp that maybe manage to slow down the opposition a bit, but will never be the decisive factor.

What you can do is use the "Troop" subtype. That exists so lesser enemies can still pose a viable threat by sheer numbers. This way, you get at least some thing like a "Troop, Skeletons" going that can support your Necrocrafts.

[Albertus Magus]

I'm a big fan of paizo's work and generally avoid 3rd party, but I still want to recommend two products:

1) "Mooks" / "Underlings"
Easy to build, easy to adapt/refluff, easy to run. Complete with statistics/lvl.

2) Squads & Scores A simple way to combine 4 & 20 of a single creature type.
You can even combo it with the "Underlings" above!


3) Remember, a single Skald can turn a bunch of underlings into a force to be reckoned with - Rage powers can be scary power multipliers.

Spirit Totem-Lesser, the Linnorm curses, Strength Surge & the Combat maneuver Rage powers...

4) If "hitting the PCs" is your goal, make your mooks Kineticists with an energy blast -> Ranged touch attacks FTW!

Most annoying mook ever: Goblin Pyrokineticist with Roll with it & Burning Infusion: A CR 1/2 critter with a highly accurate blast that sets the target on fire(annoys mages) & who is difficult to kill thanks to "roll with it".

[Coidzor]

In addition stuff like Animate Dead and Summon Monsters gets a bit over-hyped, as the critters you get are rarely better than simple bags of hp that maybe manage to slow down the opposition a bit, but will never be the decisive factor.

Undead are most of what I have at the moment, so I want to maximize my ability to get them to cause an expenditure of resources so that, ideally, enough healing is expended that we don't fight them with them at full hp.

I'm certainly not doing this because I want a mountain of undead.

What you can do is use the "Troop" subtype. That exists so lesser enemies can still pose a viable threat by sheer numbers. This way, you get at least some thing like a "Troop, Skeletons" going that can support your Necrocrafts.

Can I? From what I can gather, it seems like you basically have to make a custom monster for each troop, rather than using a template or even following a set of guidelines.

[ngilop]

This is how I run it. and you may take it or leave it as you wish.

cannon fodder should hit an AC unfocused character 55% of the time.

a mook should hit an AC unfocused character 75% of the time

while a champion should hit an AC unfocused character 95% of the time

and now for the definitions
AC Unfocused character EX: the stereotypical blasty sorcerer who might have mage armor up
The formula for this is as follows a rough estimate 10+ 1/2 Level+Dex Mod

cannon fodder EX: the dozen or so goblin raiders led by a frost giant. these guys are supposed to die and not really do any damage except on guy that are not supposed to be getting hit.
the formula for their attack is as follows a rought estimate 1+1/2 Hit die +Str/Dex Mod

mook EX: the guys that are going to be the main things you encounter, the gnolls inside an abandonded fort. Not meant to be deadly in and of themselves but with the intent to wear you down
The formula for attack is as follows a rough estimate 5+1/2 Hit die +Str/Dex Mod

Champion EX: this is the leader of the cannon fodder/mook group like the goblin war captan these guy are supposed to be deadly and if given the opportunity will make short work of those squishies
The Formula for attack is as follows a rough estimate 9+1/2 Hit die +Str/Dex Mod

of course melee focused skirmishers and the initiators of the group will have different amounts, considering shifting it down by 1 for a skirmisher (rogue, monk, etc) or 2 by the initiator (Fighter, Knight, etc)

[Coidzor]

I'm a big fan of paizo's work and generally avoid 3rd party, but I still want to recommend two products:

1) "Mooks" / "Underlings"
Easy to build, easy to adapt/refluff, easy to run. Complete with statistics/lvl.

That certainly is interesting, but I suspect that I won't be able to make use of it given that it's 3PP. :V Even if I could, I really don't want to burn a feat just to be able to create Undead Underlings in the first place, that really feels counter-intuitive to the apparent goal of simplifying things.

2) Squads & Scores A simple way to combine 4 & 20 of a single creature type.
You can even combo it with the "Underlings" above!

Now, Squads definitely seem exactly the sort of thing I'd want, since I was initially thinking of units of 4 anyway.

Scores would also be very tasty and far more manageable than swarms.

Alas, that 3PP is verboten at present.

3) Remember, a single Skald can turn a bunch of underlings into a force to be reckoned with - Rage powers can be scary power multipliers.

Spirit Totem-Lesser, the Linnorm curses, Strength Surge & the Combat maneuver Rage powers...

Skalds are pretty nice, yeah. Working on potentially recruiting a Bard lieutenant, at least, but I don't think we'll encounter any Skalds unless we make them in this specific case.

4) If "hitting the PCs" is your goal, make your mooks Kineticists with an energy blast -> Ranged touch attacks FTW!

Most annoying mook ever: Goblin Pyrokineticist with Roll with it & Burning Infusion: A CR 1/2 critter with a highly accurate blast that sets the target on fire(annoys mages) & who is difficult to kill thanks to "roll with it".

Heh. Well, Retraining does turn a character with an NPC class into one with a PC class in 3 days. I'll have to keep that in mind for later when I get more living mooks.

[Florian]

Can I? From what I can gather, it seems like you basically have to make a custom monster for each troop, rather than using a template or even following a set of guidelines.

Sure.

It looks unintuitive unless you have used the Mass Combat rules, which explain the actual conversion process. Instead of adding a template, you more or less strip down the base creature and only keep the parts the conversion process needs. It´s pretty quick once you get the hang of it.

Edit - Example:

Using the sample Bestiary Skeleton, only things that´ll change are the following:
NE Medium undead (troop)
Defensive Abilities: DR 5/Bludgeoning, Undead Traits, Troop Traits, Immune: Cold
Melee: Troop (1d6+2)
Space: 20ft Reach 5ft.

And that´s it.

Now if you´d outfit them with Longsbows, you´d know by the mass battle rules that this gives a special attack, so:

Special Attack: Volley

Volley (Ex) A Skeleton Archer troop can fire a volley of arrows as a standard action. This attack takes the form of up to two lines with a range of 100 feet. These lines can each start from the corner of any square in the troop’s space. Each creature in any of these lines take 1d8 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC 12 half). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

[Godskook]

I have a Knight PC with 29-34 AC depending on if he's feeling safe enough to not use Combat Expertise.

First, let me cover a few potential DM-problems, and then I'll cover my opinions on how to handle it.

1.As others have mentioned, CR+0 encounters are not "challenging" as most people view the word challenging. More accurately, they're "resource draining". In general, a 4x CR+0 encounters should leave your PCs feeling quite drained and out of their "good" options.

2.D&D is *REALLY* balanced around "heroic fantasy", which means that on average, PCs are stupidly strong, and are more limited by themselves than they are their foes. The easiest way to see this is to look at how a CR+4 encounter is balanced: That's an equal amount of NPCs of the same level as the PCs without full PC WBL. Yeah.....

3.AC optimization is such that I'd say to not take away your PC's shiny. He's geared to be unhittable. That's fine. Let him be nigh-unhittable. Getting into an arms race with your PC will not only frustrate him about his own investment but frustrate the team about *THEIR* investments, as suddenly, a reasonable AC investment is now useless against the foes the other guy optimized.

Second, some tips:

1.Bards or bard-replacements(Marshal lacks support in 3.5, but you can just hot-swap Bard support concepts for roughly equal value onto their chassis and be fine) should be more common. Wardrums are a common trope for a reason. For 3.5, this alone gives a +5ish to AC for relatively cheap efforts.

2.NPCs use potions more than PCs because they prefer strong solutions over efficient ones. PCs buy +2 Belts of Strength because htey'll upgrade it later. NPCs buy Bull's Strength because they expect to -die- if they drink that potion and it doesn't work. Note: This also rewards PC who can effectively ambush the NPCs before they drink their potions, as the NPCs will either waste actions quaffing, or fight below par. The Full Plate team-member will not be there for this on his own.

3.If your PC has optimized AC, but a 1-2 more anti-tank opponents into the fight. Grappling, Tripping, Sundering, as well as Touch AC and Saves all work to threaten him if his only good defense is his AC.

4.There's a reason the book has a ****-ton of bonuses in it for various situations. Prone, Flanking, Cowering, Charge, Blind, Stun and Entangled are all viable options to affect this player, without violating #3 from the first section.

5.When NPCs have a near-nothing chance to hit, Aid-another becomes a *REALLY* good use of an action, relatively speaking.

6.More lower-CR opponents have an easier time keeping up with AC and offer you as the DM more opportunities to flank, aid another, or use speciality tricks to debuff due to action economy.

[Coidzor]

Sure.

It looks unintuitive unless you have used the Mass Combat rules, which explain the actual conversion process. Instead of adding a template, you more or less strip down the base creature and only keep the parts the conversion process needs. It´s pretty quick once you get the hang of it.

Edit - Example:

Using the sample Bestiary Skeleton, only things that´ll change are the following:
NE Medium undead (troop)
Defensive Abilities: DR 5/Bludgeoning, Undead Traits, Troop Traits, Immune: Cold
Melee: Troop (1d6+2)
Space: 20ft Reach 5ft.

And that´s it.

Now if you´d outfit them with Longsbows, you´d know by the mass battle rules that this gives a special attack, so:

Special Attack: Volley

Volley (Ex) A Skeleton Archer troop can fire a volley of arrows as a standard action. This attack takes the form of up to two lines with a range of 100 feet. These lines can each start from the corner of any square in the troop’s space. Each creature in any of these lines take 1d8 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC 12 half). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Where are these rules located?

What I can find definitely doesn't have any reference to the Volley special attack.

You'd make a Troop of Skeletons have the same single HD as an individual one?

-snip-

Thank you, I had actually forgotten about Aid Another completely. I'll definitely be keeping some of these in mind.

-snip-

Thank you for the food for thought.

[Florian]

@Coidzor:

Look at the "Special Abilities" section. Only abilities that´re listed there will get converted in any way, but again based on HD and not on what´s listed with the original creature.

There´re available templates for this, like "Volley", "Magic Attack", "Bombs", "Overwhelm", "Heal", "Harm", and so on.

(And no, I wouldn't´t actually do it with a 1HD skellie. I just used that as an example)

The main advantage still is that a troop can share space with enemy and friend at the same time. That´s why I wrote that supporting a more robust undead like a Necrocraft with a swarm of skeletons or zombies will significantly work towards reducing the difference in CR.

[Coidzor]

@Coidzor:

Look at the "Special Abilities" section. Only abilities that´re listed there will get converted in any way, but again based on HD and not on what´s listed with the original creature.

There´re available templates for this, like "Volley", "Magic Attack", "Bombs", "Overwhelm", "Heal", "Harm", and so on.

Where, though? I don't see anything like that in the Mass Combat rules that I can find. I can find an example of a Troop of Axers that have a Volley special attack, but it provides no real way to derive how it works from that example.

I'm guessing a troop with ranged weapons has a number of volleys equal to the number of d6s of swarm damage and it deals the d6s of swarm damage without any modifier?

(And no, I wouldn't´t actually do it with a 1HD skellie. I just used that as an example)

The main advantage still is that a troop can share space with enemy and friend at the same time. That´s why I wrote that supporting a more robust undead like a Necrocraft with a swarm of skeletons or zombies will significantly work towards reducing the difference in CR.

I was mostly trying to tell if you meant that it would keep the same number of hit dice or if the hit dice would increase to match whatever CR a troop comprised of that kind of creature would have?

That's definitely a nice perk, I agree. I'm just still trying to figure out how that would work.

[Florian]

Where, though?

Most examples are in the bestiary section of the APs that use troops, so Hell´s Rebels and Ironfang Invasion, as well as Lands of Conflict. Bestiary 6 provides some further special abilities, like Advanced or Phalanx troops.

Conversion to a troop doesn´t change the HD of the base creature. Only thing that changes is that CR = HD.

[Coidzor]

Conversion to a troop doesn´t change the HD of the base creature. Only thing that changes is that CR = HD.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you were saying that a Troop should have the same number of HD as the base creature, because that seems very much incorrect going off of the examples I can find.

Where are you getting that the number of HD a Troop has is equal to its CR? What I've seen is that it should have around the recommended amount for its Type determined by its CR. So a Troop of Humanoids of CR 7 is expected to have around 10 HD, modified to hit around a target of 85 HP for a CR 7 creature.