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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Digo, was Lonesome Road crashing with NVAC and NVSR? And did you have something like Zan's Auto-purge running?
    Here's my NV mod list:
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    Note: I don't know what the load order is because for whatever reason, LOOT stopped working, so I can't open the list with it. I'm just posting what I see in the data list from the splash screen

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    I also have NVAC and NVAR (so yeah, game was crashing with those active), as well as NVSE and the 4GB memory extender. Tried poking around the map in some areas and still stable. It was just lonesome Road that was crashy.
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2017-08-30 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Forgot to answer the question.
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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    If NV Interiors affects LR, that'll be the culprit.

    You'll see the same issue with AWOP. New Vegas is ludicrously bad at unloading unless it's forced to do so. I bet you'd also run into very slow inventory opening shortly prior to a crash. Basically you need to run PCB every so often so it dumps the memory.
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  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Glass is proverbial for it's fragility, and Concrete is also well known for it's relatively short lifespan as far as a construction material.
    Just to correct you there, it's *reinforced* concrete which generally has problems over a long period of time, because water gradually seeps inside and causes the rebar reinforcement to rust. Rust has a larger volume than the metal it replaces, so the concrete gets forced apart from the inside.

    If your concrete washbasin cracked in less than a year then I would have to say something went wrong while it was being poured, because concrete most definitely shouldn't crack that quickly!

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    I think the problem here is that we're trying to apply real-life science to the Fallout 'verse. Everything in Fallout runs on the logic of 50s sci-fi B-movies, including architectural longevity (e.g. the Statue of Liberty still being intact in the 3900s in Planet of the Apes). We might as well talk about whether radiation can really create giant ants or turn people into ghouls.

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    If NV Interiors affects LR, that'll be the culprit.
    I'll have to check if it does affect any of the DLC. I was thinking Nevada Skies as that does affect the add ons. But that's a project for some other time down the road. Seems stable right now so I'm not gonna mess with it. Just trying to complete the game for once. :>
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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Which is complete horse apples. Look at all the ancient structures still standing. Yes, some are due to perfect climate, but tell me who's doing maintenance on the Sphinx? Or the aqueducts in Italy?
    That would be Egyptians and various Italian peoples respectively (who worshipped and made use of said buildings far longer than we might immediately think). Today, the various ministries of antiquity, in Italy as private-public partnerships, so eg the Collosseum was refurbished recently with money from some fashion label or something like that. I forget the brand.

    The sfinx e.g. has clear patterns of repair from ancient and not so ancient times, it was also covered in sand almost compeltely until the 1800s and the birth of egyptology. Not all ancient monuments are untouched. In fact, few are, though much that hasn't necessarily been restorative.

    Both example you cite are interetingly the more substantial inert stone ones. There are plenty of examples of what happens to modern and near modern buildings left unmaintained, and the result is not that they hang around sort of intact for 50, let alone 200 years.

    Edit: A bit late to the party I noticed now. :P
    There was a documentaryish series, called something Life after humans or simialr which looked at what would happen to our stuff if we just disappeared overnight, no specific catastrophe just one day humanity gone. *poof*.
    They showed some off and on examples of existing structures that had been left well alone (which had been used as examples for extrapolating their computer animation of decay) which shows how most modernish structures are fairly weakly resistant to weathering. It will depend on a lot on local speficis but generally the more engineered something is the less likely to stand the test of time. They buuilt to last way back when, we don't so much nowdays since we expect circumstances and needs to change much more rapidly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SZbNAhL View Post
    I think the problem here is that we're trying to apply real-life science to the Fallout 'verse. Everything in Fallout runs on the logic of 50s sci-fi B-movies, including architectural longevity (e.g. the Statue of Liberty still being intact in the 3900s in Planet of the Apes). We might as well talk about whether radiation can really create giant ants or turn people into ghouls.
    Yea the game is heavily troperrific. Makes it a lot of fun for me. But the food hanging around indefinitely does get me. I can see somethign that was gammaradiated (becasue that's what they'd do I bet) could keep for quite a while. It's just you'd think people would loot the bejuses out of all of that. Pre-war food should be rare and "powerful".
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2017-08-31 at 06:06 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    It's worth noting during discussions like these that the Pyramids and the Sphinx were unimaginably ancient, even at the time of Cleopatra and Julius Caesar. You may also have heard it said that we are closer to Cleopatra than she was to the original building of the Pyramids, so they've probably been looking a little worse for wear for a very long time.

  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Chernobyl might be a more recent example of unmaintained modern architecture that hasn't dissolved.

    That said, while maintenance is a force which no longer be acting on it, neither is human use. IE roadways might not be maintained, but neither will we see cars driven on them constantly damaging them. What you'd see would be the asphalt breaking into chunks which float with seasonal expansion and contraction.

    On the other hand, immediate thermal forces from the nuclear detonations would be very detrimental to the concrete, causing raipd expansion then slow cooling. Basically the prolonged nuclear war (2-hours being a long time in nuclear war terms) would drastically, if temporarily alter the local climate. That kind of heat will be trapped and absorbed by large thermal masses and only released as the temperature of surrounding mass reduces enough to allow it. So you'd still have hot spots radiating heat in the early stages of Nuclear Winter. Possibly even prolonging it to an extent.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Chernobyl might be a more recent example of unmaintained modern architecture that hasn't dissolved.
    Presumably you mean Pripyat (the deserted town near the Chernobyl reactor) rather than the reactor itself? Mind you, the reactor is an example of things decaying quickly even when maintained--the original concrete "sarcophagus" built around the destroyed reactor was in such a bad state that they've recently had to replace it with a steel structure.

    If you do mean Pripyat, by the way, I think you'd be surprised just how bad a state that place is in. It's only been deserted 30 years and yet nature is already taking over.

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Presumably you mean Pripyat (the deserted town near the Chernobyl reactor) rather than the reactor itself? Mind you, the reactor is an example of things decaying quickly even when maintained--the original concrete "sarcophagus" built around the destroyed reactor was in such a bad state that they've recently had to replace it with a steel structure.

    If you do mean Pripyat, by the way, I think you'd be surprised just how bad a state that place is in. It's only been deserted 30 years and yet nature is already taking over.
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  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    The concrete Sarcophagus wasn't well built to begin with. If I'm recalling correctly, it was poured rapidly to contain things, and always meant to be replaced with something more sturdy which didn't happen until very recently.

    Looks like it's in about the shape I'd expect, and actually fits with F3's original narrative of being 20 years post war. That said, those are somewhat more substantially built than the big high-rises. The same with the Fallout Architecture, which isn't designed with the very thin, light weight materials necessary for modern sky scrapers.

    It's all a bit moot though, given that the designs are all extrapolated from what the 1950's thought the future was supposed to look like.
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  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Looks like it's in about the shape I'd expect, and actually fits with F3's original narrative of being 20 years post war.
    Just a pity that F3 as released was set 200 years post-war, in that case...

  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Reading comprehension: Original Narrative, meaning it was meant to be set twenty years after originally then the timeline was changed to 200. The fact that it no longer fits isn't the point I was making.
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  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Reading comprehension: Original Narrative, meaning it was meant to be set twenty years after originally then the timeline was changed to 200. The fact that it no longer fits isn't the point I was making.
    I'm fully aware what you meant, but considering this entire conversation started over how the bomb in Megaton is far more intact than it should be after 200 years, I think the original concept is kind of irrelevant. They should have changed the concept when they decided to project everything nearly 2 centuries into the future.

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I think we can all agree Bethesda's a bit lazy.
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I'm fully aware what you meant, but considering this entire conversation started over how the bomb in Megaton is far more intact than it should be after 200 years, I think the original concept is kind of irrelevant. They should have changed the concept when they decided to project everything nearly 2 centuries into the future.
    Depending on how the bomb casing was made, 20 years or 200 years wouldn't make much of a difference for the casing. Even IRL, bomb casings are made of...well crap..can't remember the exact alloy at the moment (it's been over 20 years since I've handled one)...but it's an alloy, not steel....they resist rust and corrosion pretty damn good on their own. Throw in a bunch of bomb worshiping loonies to clean and care for the holy bomb, and that thing will stick around forever.
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  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    We were talking architecture, not munitions. Though I admit on the surface building a bomb that durable seems self-defeating. Though a Nuke presumably dissolves it's own casing efficiently enough for it not to matter.

    Also, started recording New Vegas again. Passed two Legion Spawn' with nary a football helmet in sight. It just feels wrong not having them turn up.
    Last edited by Triaxx; 2017-09-01 at 10:41 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Though I admit on the surface building a bomb that durable seems self-defeating.
    The reason for that is that you want your "deterrent" to be able to go at any time. When the enemy bombers are incoming, you can't say, "Can you just hold off a day or two while I get my response up and running?". So, making your bombs (or missiles, as the case may be) so they require the least maintenance possible is a good thing.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    True, plus the last thing you want is a leak from your nukes.
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  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I think we can all agree Bethesda's a bit lazy.
    To an extent, Bethesda is hampered by choices made by Interplay, then by wanting to keep a lot of elements of the first two Fallouts. Fallout was 100 years post bombb; Fallout 2 was a few generations after that (I think the CO is the great grandchild of the VD). If you want FO3 to have the BoS, then the BoS has to be an organization capable of sending a sizable force to the East Coast.
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2017-09-03 at 12:12 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Fallout 3 is a retelling of Fallout 1. It's absolutely built to be a reboot of the series. The fact that it's on the east coast and not the already desert west coast, is why several of the story elements don't fit, such as the whining about water, which makes sense in Fallout 1, since you're in the middle of a desert. Fallout 3, not so much.
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  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    It's more than just being in the Desert. Fallout 1 has a pretty elaborate water-distribution apparatus via the Water Merchants, it's just Vault 13 that's having problems because of a recent change. Meanwhile, in Fallout 3, it seems like nobody ever has had water (except Megaton) but only two people appear to be having actual problems with it.

    Same deal with the caps, really. Caps work as currency in Fallout 1 because they're backed by water. That is to say, the Water Merchants take them and everyone else just rolled with it. Caps work as currency in Fallout 3...just...because. And then you find them literally everywhere. You can find stray caps in Fallout 1, but they're fairly uncommon unless you're looting bodies. Usually you have to scavenge extra weapons or whatever and find a merchant to stockpile currency.
    Last edited by BladeofObliviom; 2017-09-03 at 02:34 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    It's worth noting during discussions like these that the Pyramids and the Sphinx were unimaginably ancient, even at the time of Cleopatra and Julius Caesar. You may also have heard it said that we are closer to Cleopatra than she was to the original building of the Pyramids, so they've probably been looking a little worse for wear for a very long time.
    Here's one, forget Julia Caesar. Lets talk Tutankhamen c. 1332–1323 BCE. The Pyramids were ancient to him. Like as ancient as August Caesar would be to us. You have to remember they're nearly 4000 years old, and the Great Pyramid was built around 2550 BCE.

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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    To an extent, Bethesda is hampered by choices made by Interplay, then by wanting to keep a lot of elements of the first two Fallouts. Fallout was 100 years post bombb; Fallout 2 was a few generations after that (I think the CO is the great grandchild of the VD). If you want FO3 to have the BoS, then the BoS has to be an organization capable of sending a sizable force to the East Coast.
    Fallout 1 was only 84 years post-war, FYI, and Fallout 2 is another 80 years after that. Thing is, you never see random skeletons from the war lying around in places where people are actually living in those two games--that's a specifically Bethesda feature that doesn't make a lot of sense; "Oh, I live here, but I'm not going to bother clearing away these 200-year-old skeletons or anything like that because I can't be bothered". Or, "This military bunker would be an amazingly good place to live considering the general state of buildings in the Commonwealth, but the player character is apparently the first person to find it in 2 centuries".

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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Here's one, forget Julia Caesar. Lets talk Tutankhamen c. 1332–1323 BCE. The Pyramids were ancient to him. Like as ancient as August Caesar would be to us. You have to remember they're nearly 4000 years old, and the Great Pyramid was built around 2550 BCE.
    Tutankhamun to Khufu is still a ridiculously long time of course, but as it's 'only' 1200 years, that's from us to Charlemagne, not to Augustus.

  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I think we can all agree Bethesda's a bit lazy.
    I wish I could say for certain that it actually is just laziness, and not incompetence or misunderstanding source material. There's a lot of elements that make me feel it's the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    To an extent, Bethesda is hampered by choices made by Interplay, then by wanting to keep a lot of elements of the first two Fallouts. Fallout was 100 years post bombb; Fallout 2 was a few generations after that (I think the CO is the great grandchild of the VD). If you want FO3 to have the BoS, then the BoS has to be an organization capable of sending a sizable force to the East Coast.
    I would argue that these are only limitations if you're determined to make Fallout 3 a direct linear sequel to Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics. You can have Fallout before the Vault Dweller blows up the Master. You can have Fallout without the Brotherhood of Steel being shoehorned in. In fact, I'd even say that I'd rather have a new faction done poorly instead of an existing faction that's written nonsensically. With the former, it's just a bit of a shame, but the latter requires us to accept that the faction with whom we've already seen and interacted are acting stupidly for no reason whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Fallout 3 is a retelling of Fallout 1. It's absolutely built to be a reboot of the series. The fact that it's on the east coast and not the already desert west coast, is why several of the story elements don't fit, such as the whining about water, which makes sense in Fallout 1, since you're in the middle of a desert. Fallout 3, not so much.
    I'm okay with reboots, so long as they're willing to commit to actually being a reboot instead of just shamelessly shoehorning factions into places and patterns of behavior that aren't fitting for them. That's one of the major issues I see with Fallout 3; Bethesda played it safe by ripping off as many story elements as possible from the first two games, but then didn't make it pay off. They took existing factions and moved them to a new location, but then didn't change their modus operandi or motivation to match. Factions are there because somebody decided that you need Brotherhood, Enclave, Super Mutants, but couldn't be bothered to provide a reason that actually makes sense for them being there.

    It's just... If you're going to do a reboot, then do a reboot. Go all out. Declare the previous games non-canonical, and build your own in that setting, with factions that make sense, that are creative. Any one of the factions could have been better done by replacing them with something novel instead of forcing existing factions to conform to nonsensical behaviors.
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  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Yes and no, your point about factions being out of character is taken but if they are adding even broad strokes of tactics the BOS aren't out of character.

    I know most people skipped Tactics, but the short explanation is that the group sent east were dissenters from the Western Core. They wanted to help the Wasteland, rather than simply hoard tech for themselves. So they were sent east as a Splinter group basically because the old style Western Brotherhood didn't want to deal with them. So they are acting in character for those sent east.
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  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Yes and no, your point about factions being out of character is taken but if they are adding even broad strokes of tactics the BOS aren't out of character.

    I know most people skipped Tactics, but the short explanation is that the group sent east were dissenters from the Western Core. They wanted to help the Wasteland, rather than simply hoard tech for themselves. So they were sent east as a Splinter group basically because the old style Western Brotherhood didn't want to deal with them. So they are acting in character for those sent east.
    True, but that just highlights how easy it would have been for Lyons' BoS chapter to make sense. Finishing off the Calculator in 2198 would leave plenty of time for the Midwestern BoS to come east from Chicago, and it'd only have to be 120ish years instead of 200. Still a long time, but more plausible than 200. It'd make much more sense for an entrenched group, already used to working with the population and pulling from them for new members, to decide to expand to DC.

    Instead, Bethesda decided that Lyons' group would come from the isolationist Western BoS, the group that decided against letting outsiders join, and then immediately on arrival started throwing troops death-squad style into a place where nobody benefits from their deaths.
    Last edited by Balmas; 2017-09-03 at 05:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    The really weird part is that Fallout 3 actually acknowledges the Midwestern Brotherhood, briefly. One of the scribes, I forget which, offhandedly mentions a rogue chapter in the Chicago area.

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    Default Re: Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

    I believe it's the holotag scribe, but I believe the computer also makes mention of it. I may be mistaken, but I believe Lyons group was the 'Control' group of the core who were sent along so the 'rebel' elements didn't get too far out of hand. The real break is having only a single elder instead of F1's council of elders approach. In the west it's sensible, because after the war with the NCR, they were spread thin. In the east though where they were on the strength, Lyons seems to have seized power.

    Also, I was having an issue with my weapon textures in New Vegas. Seems turning Archive Invalidation off and then back on again fixed it.
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