Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXXVI

[The Blade Wolf]

I think that about wraps it up, unless Zaq and/or Blade Wolf possibly need some time to finish judging?

Sorry, I think I will have to pass on being able to judge this. A pretty nasty cold, followed by an injured wrist that significantly hampered my writing ability... on top of a desire to wait to see what Rizban had to say means I won't be able to complete the judgements in a satisfactory period of time.

[Inevitability]

Sorry, I think I will have to pass on being able to judge this. A pretty nasty cold, followed by an injured wrist that significantly hampered my writing ability... on top of a desire to wait to see what Rizban had to say means I won't be able to complete the judgements in a satisfactory period of time.

I commiserate with you regarding the wrist and cold.

[Thurbane]

If it's not too late, my HM goes to Gajsan.

I don't think I can remember seeing the Mountebank base class used before, and along with Diabolous, two things that appeal to me.

[The Viscount]

I'll second that.

[The Blade Wolf]

My HM goes to the multitasking Diospid, as I love that race. If they win a medal, I will as back Gajsan

[bean illus]

Ok. I was supposed to start a vacation 2 1/2 days ago. I have an embarrassing amount of work in this, and it's totally lame, and i think my other idea was better, but here goes. This is my first Iron Chef entry. I know it's late, and that it cannot qualify for the competition, but i have too much work in it to leave it in a drawer.
I won't be back for a month, but if someone could please 'judge' it. I'm not worried how score, just the experience of the critique. Given another week i would have been a lot more proud of it, but still, it was fun.

Jacques Elenton, Lord Elenton - The Skeleton King
Twisted Lord - Human - Lawful Neutral (any nongood)
8, 10, 12 - 16, 8, 18(+5 =23)
Sorcerer/Marshall /Dread Witch2 /Mindbender/ Nightmare Spinner2 /Twisted Lord10
Main Shtick: Auto Shaken and Panic While Unseen

Spoiler: Sources and Prerequisites

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Sources: PHB, PHBii, MH, HoH, CAr, CM, CS, SGoSG, DotU, Draconomicon
Prereq:
Dread Witch: Will +4, (arcana) 3 ranks, cast cause fear and scare
Mindbender: nongood, Bluff 4, Diplo 4, Intim 4, Sense Motive 4, cast charm person, Arcane CL 5
Nightmare Spinner: Bluff 4, Intim 4, Sense Motive 4, 3rd-level arcane spells; fear, illusion spell.
Twisted Lord: Bluff 9 ranks , Intimidate 5 ranks.

Spoiler: The Story

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Jacques' adventures began with the kind of simple mischief that many boys would find quite believable. Born on the frontier, nothing but myth and legend existed in the vastness beyond the map. His small village was peopled mostly by half orcs, half elves, half humans, and half liars, with the later being nearly the majority.

Of those last, the Elentons were among the oldest families around. His grandfather told that his own great-grandfather had lived near here over 200 years ago. Jack loved his grandfather, who seemed quite young for the size of his brood. A dozen clans came to the annual festivities, and the participants numbered in hundreds.

He was still a boy the night he was caught eavesdropping. Jack had been listening to grandfather's lessons to his father for quite some time. This particular full moon though, he fell asleep, and was discovered napping when his father began his trip home. At first he was roundly scolded, and then questioned as to what he had understood. In the end, his own lessons began the next full moon.

Time passes and the winds of change shift, and one morning the country awoke to war. Jack led a squad for the Marshals that came to bring the kings peace, before switching sides politically and joining the vast majority of his families folk in withdrawal to the wilderness to conduct guerilla warfare against the crown. Before the peace was signed Jack learned a lot of ways to not get killed.

During the war, he made contacts whose wyrd remained woven with his for many years. The last summer of the war He and a fellow spellcaster fell in love with the same beauty She chose Jack, but when the relationship soured Jack and the fellow became fast friends. Filled with ambition the three followed rumors of fame and fortune wherever they led.

It didn't take long for the handsome and exotic young men to get noticed. The Ebon Cabal took particular interest in Jack's unique skillset and discreet demeanor. That winter they were invited to visit the Black Tower, and within the year Jack's knack for handling a situation without breaking things earned him a promotion. His new Cloak of the Cabal reinforced his decision and he eagerly volunteered for some very dangerous missions.

And then the day came that he was asked the question he knew would come eventually ... Will you join us in the hidden knowledge only we possess? Will you be a Twisted Lord of the Ebon Cabal? This short sword is nice!

Jack felt as ease in the Cabal's company, and their pragmatic approach to things. He also appreciated their formal habit of addressing him as Jacques. His social acumen and ability to apply leverage quickly made him the second favorite choice of many powerful people, which eventually led to him becoming first choice of almost everybody else.
Lord Elenton is magnetic, good looking, majestic, and respected by all. Few have ever seen him in his Twisted Form which he reserves for darkest moments and most morbid need (though he can barely resist the chance to prank strangers or tease unattended children).
During festivities Lord Elenton love to present himself decked out in resplendent armor, finely buffed ornaments, and glamorous embellishments.

In a world of crumbling alliances, life long feuds, and tumbling empires the middle road of Lord Jacques Elenton brought stability to the Ebon Cabal, amassing wealth of all kinds. Their influence grew, and the reputation of 'Jack Skeleton' was flung across the continents. "The Skeleton King" became a legend in his own time, and a fable for the ages.

Spoiler: The Build

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Spoiler: Build Table

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Level	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	Sorcerer	+0	+0	+0	+2	Bluff4 Conc4 Diplo1 Hide1 KnoArc3 SlHa4 SpCr1	Precocious Apprentice - Skill Focus (Intim(retrain?))	Metamagic Specialist, +1 casting
2nd	Marshal	+0	+2	+0	+2	Diplo+1(2) List+5	*Listen to This	Skill Focus (Diplo), motivate charisma
3rd	Dread Witch	+0	+2	+0	+6	Intim+2 SlHa+2x(5)	Practiced Spellcaster, *Conceal Spellcasting	Master of Terror, Unnatural Will
4th	Dread Witch2	+1	+2	+0	+7	Conc+1(5) Intim+5(7)	-	Absorb fear, +1 casting2
5th	Dread Witch3	+1	+3	+1	+9	Conc+3(8) Intim+1(8)	*Never Outnumbered	Fearful empower 1/day, +1 casting3
6th	Twisted Lord1	+1	+3	+3	+9	Bluff+2(6) Conc+1(9) Diplo+1(3) Hide+1(2) Intim+1(9) Sensmo+1 Spot+1 UMD+4	Spell Focus (Necro)	Twisted form
7th	Twisted Lord2 +2 +3 +4 +9	+2	+3	+4	+9	Bluff+2(8) Conc+1(10) Hide+1(3) Intim+1(10) Move+1 Sensmo+1(2) UMD+3(8)	*Group Fakeout	+1d6 sneak attack
8th	Dread Witch4	+3	+3	+4	+10	Bluff+2(10) Conc+1(11) Intim+1(11) SpCr+2(3)	-	Delay fear, greater master of terror, +1 casting4
9th	Dread Witch5	+3	+3	+4	+10	Conc+1(12) Intim+1(12) SpCr+2(5)	*Timely Misdirection, Imperious Command	Fearsome Empower 2/day, horrific aura, reflective fear, +1 casting5
10th	Twisted Lord3	+4	+4	+4	+11	Bluff+2(12) Diplo+2(5) Intim+1(13) Sensmo+2(4) UMD+5(13)	-	Improved Feint
11th	Mindbender1 +4 +6 +4 +13 Telepathy	+4	+6	+4	+13	Bluff+2(14) Conc+1(13) Intim+1(14)*Swift Concentration	*Swift Concentration	Telepathy, +1 casting6
12th	Nightmare Spinner	+4	+6	+4	+15	Bluff+1(15) Conc+2(15) Intim+1(15) Sensmo+4(8)	Silent Spell	Bonus spells, immunity to fear, inspire fear
13th	Nightmare Spinner2	+5	+6	+4	+16	Bluff+1(16) Conc+1(16) Intim+1(16) Sensmo+3(11)	*Social Recovery	Nightmare phantasm, +1 casting7
14th	Twisted Lord4 +6 +6 +5 +16	+6	+6	+5	+16	Bluff+1(17) Descr+2 Hide+1(4) Intim+1(17) Move+1(2) Sensmo+2(13) UMD+4(17)	-	Peripheral invisibility
15th	Twisted Lord5	+6	+6	+5	+16	Bluff+1(18) Descr+3(5) Hide+1(5) Intim+1(18) Move+1(3) Sensmo+2(15) Spot+2(3) UMD+1(18)	Frightful Presence	+2d6 sneak attack
16th	Twisted Lord6	+7	+7	+6	+17	Hide+1(6) Intim+1(19) Move+3(6) Sensmo+1(16) Spot+6(9)	-	Improved demoralize
17th	Twisted Lord7	+8	+7	+6	+17	Hide+3(9) Intim+1(20) Move+3(9) Spot+3(12)	*Spot the Weak Point	Twist target
18th	Twisted Lord8	+9	+7	+7	+17	Hide+3(12) Intim+1(21) Move+3(12) Spot+3(15)	*Clarity of Vision, Skill Focus (UMD)	+3d6 sneak attack
19th	Twisted Lord9	+9	+8	+7	+18	Hide+4(16) Intim+1(22) Move+4(16) Spot+3(18)	-	Twist perceptions
20th	Twisted Lord10	+10	+8	+8	+18	Bluff(18) Conc(16) Hide+2(18) Intim+1(23) Move+4(20) Sensmo(16) Spot+3(21) UMD(18) Decipher script(5) Diplo(5) Listen(5) SliHand(5) Spellcraft(5)	-	Twist mind

Spoiler: Spells

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Spells per Day

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd
1st	5	4	(1)	-
2nd	6	5+1	(1)	-
3rd	6	6+1	(1)	-
4th	6	7+1	5+1	-
5th	6	7+1	6+1	-
6th	6	7+1	8+1	4+1
7th	6	7+1	8+1	5+1

Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd
1st	4	2	-	-
2nd	5	2	-	-
3rd	5	3	-	-
4th	6	3	1	-
5th	6	4	2	-
6th	7	4	2	1
7th	7	5	3	2

Mage Armor, Cause Fear, True Strike(3), Charm Person(5), Silent Image(7)
Scare(1), Invisibility(5), Minor Image(7)
Invisibility Sphere(6), Nondetection(7)

Spoiler: Summary by levels

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My premise is that Rogue 5/Twisted Lord 10 is ECL 15, and that the level of PO should consider this the proper power baseline for the campaign. I enter TW early as possible for two levels while the module is still valid, and use TW intemittently to shore up skills.
Liberal use of Skill Tricks allows several ways per encounter to get/stay close to a Target/touch, or support the secondary focus of Cha Face with the max Bluff, Intim, high Sense Motive and decent Diplo, all supported by 2xCha.

The build is crap for BAB, but has a lot of touch attack and several invisibilities and other sneaks, debuffs, and niches. In the end his BAB is same as a Sorc20. Damage is unacceptably low, but his character just needs a custom magic item generating cabal to work with, and has one.

Spoiler: Levels 1-5 & 6-10

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Levels 1-5 are nice enough. SAD Cha makes Jack a natural face at low level, and he actually gets his first 2nd level spell early, as well as enters Dread Witch early. Mage Armor, True Strike, Cause Fear, and high Con support the staple of illusions and fear spells. Master of Terror and Practiced Spellcaster Work to early advantage. Unnatural Will and Fearsome Empower anticipate the fear campaign that the SI suggest, while Absorb Fear is a spell/day generator if the guess is true.
Never Outnumbered early at 5th with Intim(19) prebuff. Throw an escalation and clear the room, with most cowering.

Level 6-10 Twist Form works uberboost the demoralize, with Focus Necro coming on line. The build still looks for ways to not melee, but with the Cabal's help his unique skillset is used correctly. UMD becomes available with cheap items? AND LOANER ITEMS? A CUSTOM ITEM LIBRARY? !! Let's max UMD fo sho.
Finish DW for Horrific Aura: All peons with a brain are politely dismissed from the room for the rest of the campaign, AND (even better) a touch att that panics any HD even those immune to fear cha/day. Let's keep 'em flat footed ... oh! Improved Feint!
This is a pretty sweet spot for this build, and a lot of campaigns and teams could find a use for him.

Spoiler: Levels 11-20

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Level 11-15, Mindbender works well. Low prereqs and Telepathy to advance casting, and barely squeezes Nightmare Spinner in. Jack gets tired of other folks bluffing him, and begins to boost Sense Motive. Spellcraft and Decipher script boost a max UMD. NS delivers bigly with one extra illus spell for each level, immunity to fear (for when i'm in the presence of greatness), and another way to cause fear. Though many types of fear become less effective as we go, it's nice fluff to look at someone from 30' away and scare them.
NS2 ALSO gives the tasty Nightmare Phantasm, making every glammer of figment Jack cast trigger a will save at disbelief (and the build focuses less on concentration from now on in response. It's not truly powerful, but very thematic. Fueled by the Cantrip Ghost Sound Cha/day, anyone who has a Will save is shaken. Boom.
This synergizes (i believe) with most SI features. Hide/Periph/invis/illusion/shaken/touch/panic/cower all before the surpise round and hopefully without the opponent even knowing how that happened. Btw, Peripheral invis is kinda cool. All day long invis as a (Su); if you don't stare at him forever he will disappear. Fun character, several tricks that he's better at than anybody.

Level 16-20, TW6 comes on a bit late, but oh well. Improved Feint and Improved Demoralize are fully on line and can be spammed all day. The build now has about 100 ways to not be in melee, and in fact even doing damage sans UMD, but that's about to change.
The targets come pre-shaken now thanks to NS2/Frightful Presence/Fearful Empowerment, and that's what we like. Twist Target turns the enemies damage against it's allies, Twist Perceptions stuns them indefinitely, and Twist Mind just gives you absolute control of anyone who fails DC32 will save (Did i mention that i now RUN a custom magic item library?).

Spoiler: Summary

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Obviously this build only works if the DM wants it to. It's not a stand alone build, but a crew member in a mid power campaign. Nevertheless, it seems to fill a few niches well. It's an Ebon Cabal build. With a UMD of 37 for scrolls, even 9th level spells automatic. It's certainly a UMD build, but the SI calls for that.
I stopped most of the Cha skills at 18+12, but of course can easily buff that higher. I set Move Silent above Hide because i have invisibility. Sense Motive is lower, but few folks have a bluff that will dog my 16, AND want to kill me, And is immune to fear, And can keep me from touching them. Intimidate is maxed at 23+12+3, which should shake anybody that doesn't have maxed/doubled saves and has a brain. Illusions for the brainless. Diplo comes in at 5+3+12=20, even gather info is at 12 unbuffed without a rank.

After the details are ironed out with the dm, it might go something like this:
Hide, move silently, peripheral invisibility (possibly backed up by invis/etc), spot, silent spell ghost sound/illusion triggers nightmare phantasm, delay fear, inspire fear, end delay (is an attack?), trigger frightful presence ... everybody drops everything they have and runs without having ever seen me.

OR ..Get them shaken without being seen with nightmare phantasm, and go straight to the Twisted line (would twist target/mind leave me invis?), possibly triggering frightful presence.

When forced to melee, use improved feint, and horrific touch.

Actually this is possibly the sweetest spot. The ability to make most flee in panic without revealing oneself is cool, and so is fear touch on anything that has a will, but the ability to just take over the dm's characters seems nearly plot breaking (Will save 32 unbuffed)

[Darrin]

I won't be back for a month, but if someone could please 'judge' it.

Once the final scores are posted, I'll be happy to score your build. However, I'm not sure how that would compare to Rizban's scores.

Speaking of final scores...

[Heliomance]

And scores! Thanks for the table, Darrin.

Entry	Chef	Alignment/Race	Stub	Schtick	Judge: Rizban
Handsome Malcolm (link)	Inevitability	NE Silverbrow Human	SA Zhent Thug Fighter 9/Chameleon 1/Twisted Lord 10	Absorb Weapon Feintmancy	15.25
Vreeb Veebilbrixt (link)	Darrin	NE Insectile Diopsid	Thug Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Twisted Lord 5/Warblade +1/Twisted Lord +5	Armed and Multitasked	13.75
Two-Faced Ivan (link)	The Viscount	LE Desert Half-Orc	Thug Fighter 2/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Menacing Brute 5/Twisted Lord 10	Gazed and Confused	12.75
Gajsan (link)	Korahir	CN Diabolus	Mountebank 6/Twisted Lord 10/Uncanny Trickster 3	Satanic Panic	8
Grim Maven (link)	Randuir	TN/CN Whisper Gnome	Rogue 7/Swordsage 2/Twisted Lord 10/Swordsage +1	TWF Stabbiness	7.75

Congratulations to Inevitability, Darrin, and The Viscount for their places on the podium! And by my count Honourable Mention goes to Gajsan, so congratulations Korahir!

[danielxcutter]

Congratulations to all contestants!

[Thurbane]

Well done everyone.

Very disappointed in myself that I dragged my heels on getting my entry in.

Next time the SI appeals to me, I'm going to try harder to beat the deadline.

[The Blade Wolf]

Congrats to the contestants!

Can't wait to see what Prc we are dealing with next!

Is there any rules when it comes to suggestions for the PrC btw? Official or not.

[The Viscount]

Good round, everyone. Glad to see we went in different directions, and nobody took the easy route with Avenging Executioner.

As for suggestions for PrCs, there's no real rules for it, other than no repeats of ingredients we've already done. The PrC should be 10 levels long, though we've done a special 5 level one in the past, so we might do that again or do 2 5 level prcs for bonus fun. In general it should be something mediocre to poor, though every once in a while we have a fairly good ingredient like Twisted Lord. This will of course be followed by a poor ingredient, like Shadowsmith for this round. It helps if it's something distinctive or weird as well as or in place of just being bad. The list of previous rounds in the OP should give you an idea.

[The Blade Wolf]

So... more generic Prestige Classes like the Iaijutsu Master, the Kensai, the Warshaper and... every single full-caster PrC are not really options for the Special Ingredient?

... Have to admit, I would like to see the former two used (especially Iaijutsu Master, very curious to see who might actually get used out of it past level 5), but those classes are a bit too powerful from the sounds of it. Though I really hope that one day, we'll see the Psychic Weapon Master. It has the potential to be really, really good. BUT the fact it has SIX feats as a prerequisite and the fact half of its abilities have are bland and limited at best means that it's not exactly easy to use to its full potential.

[Darrin]

So... more generic Prestige Classes like the Iaijutsu Master, the Kensai, the Warshaper and... every single full-caster PrC are not really options for the Special Ingredient?

It's not so much whether it's "generic" but the class features are underpowered, underwhelming, or just poorly thought out. The idea is to take a PrC that is mostly garbage and see if you can make anything decent out of it. PrCs that have 1-2 good levels (popular for dipping) but really lousy levels after that can also make good ingredients.

Iaijatsu Master might work as an ingredient... but that's got a huge neon sign flashing "One Trick Pony" on top of it. I don't think we could get a good variety of builds out of that one.

Kensai might be a good ingredient, as few people take it out to all 10 levels. Lots of weird things you can do there. That would be an interesting round.

Warshaper is unlikely because it's only 5 levels long... and the shorter PrCs generally don't work for IC because they tend to get overwhelmed by all the other non-SI levels. However, a "Warshaper + Nature's Warrior" round might work. There are a few oddballs out there... 7 or 8 levels long, there's one that's 13, and I think a 15.

We do occasionally get a full caster PrC. Winterhaunt of Iborighu was the last one. The danger there is once you've got 9th level spells in the build, there are way too many "I Win" buttons that can overwhelm anything the SI can do.

You also want to avoid a PrC that only has one entry method. I wasn't involved in the round, but I still hear people complaining about Initiate of Pistis Sophia...

[The Blade Wolf]

It's not so much whether it's "generic" but the class features are underpowered, underwhelming, or just poorly thought out. The idea is to take a PrC that is mostly garbage and see if you can make anything decent out of it. PrCs that have 1-2 good levels (popular for dipping) but really lousy levels after that can also make good ingredients.

Hmm... alright that does help explain things pretty well, thank you, Darr

Iaijatsu Master might work as an ingredient... but that's got a huge neon sign flashing "One Trick Pony" on top of it. I don't think we could get a good variety of builds out of that one.

Honestly, that would kinda be the fun. Iaijutsu is a very... odd mechanic, and personally, I would love to see how people chose to use it! Though again, that might just be me and the builds me be far too similar for it to be any actual good.

Kensai might be a good ingredient, as few people take it out to all 10 levels. Lots of weird things you can do there. That would be an interesting round.

Yeaaaah... Kensai's a fairly weird class. A popular class from what I have seen, and the flavour is very well enjoyed, but the mechanics are... odd. But potentially very powerful, Power Surge especially.

Warshaper is unlikely because it's only 5 levels long... and the shorter PrCs generally don't work for IC because they tend to get overwhelmed by all the other non-SI levels. However, a "Warshaper + Nature's Warrior" round might work. There are a few oddballs out there... 7 or 8 levels long, there's one that's 13, and I think a 15.

I think I've seen a few of the odd level ones before... isn't Moonspeaker like, 12 levels itself?

We do occasionally get a full caster PrC. Winterhaunt of Iborighu was the last one. The danger there is once you've got 9th level spells in the build, there are way too many "I Win" buttons that can overwhelm anything the SI can do.

Yeeeeeeeah, I don't see full caster Prc's appearing that often in all honestly...

You also want to avoid a PrC that only has one entry method. I wasn't involved in the round, but I still hear people complaining about Initiate of Pistis Sophia...

... How many PrC' only have one actual method of entry? I haven't heard of a PrC being THAT hard to get into before!

And what did you think of the Psychic Weapon Master suggestion anyhow?

[The Viscount]

A certain number of PrCs have if not 1 method of entry, than a very specific list of requirements that makes entry any other means difficult.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia's requirements are remembered because sanctify ki strike requires ki strike lawful, which monks get at level 10 (or monk and ninja with ascetic stalker). Because it's a 10 level PrC, you would need a feat at 10, and the only conceivable way to do that is Vow of Poverty. There is one other way to get in, and that's Shim Shoo Monk, which grants ki strike early. So there's really only 3 means of entry, only 2 of which make sense. We saw both in entering the PrC.

There are not that many PrCs that can only be entered 1 way, but there are a decent number that make it very clear how they want you to enter. For example, Shintao Monk requires the still mind class feature, so you must enter by Archivist or Monk.

The more ways there are to enter, the better an ingredient generally is for the competition, because that encourages variety. True Necromancer, for example is unlikely to become an ingredient because you'll spend all your time qualifying, then 14 levels of drek. Ravager is easy to enter but gives you next to nothing.

Ronin is a class with a clear expected entry, but it's not too difficult to enter, so might be worthwhile. Hexer is full casting and pretty limited in terms of entry (I count 4 or so ways in) so is unlikely to see use.

The legend in terms of entry is Magelord, you have to pretty much do what the Man wants if you want to make it in on time.

Psionic Weapon Master is a bit difficult to enter, but I could see it being used.

[Rizban]

Psionic Weapon Master has Psychic Warrior 7 as the expected entry. It's certainly not the only method, but it gives you exactly the prerequisites for the class with absolutely no variability. It would be very easy to end up with multiple identical builds. There are multiple other entry methods though, so I'm in favor of it just to see what people can figure out.