Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXXVI

[daremetoidareyo]

Honestly up until now I thought that disputes were completely about the mechanics of a build that a judge might have pointed out were in error, or mistakes about the mechanics that the judge themselves were wrong in. The fact that the disputes are in fact, in possible regard to everything a judge as said, from power to originality, from Elegance to UoSI, makes the situation significantly more understandable.

Through if I may follow this up with a different question: What do people believe is the harder task, to create a dish, or to judge the dishes?

Judging. When cooking a dish, it becomes your baby. When judging dishes, you are sometimes confronted by ugly babies, or a ton of babies, and in regards to disputes, acknowledgement seeking babies.

The benefits of judging is system mastery. But it takes work. Sometimes work that you don't want to do. When making your build, the number of sources doesn't matter. When judging a build, you sometimes don't want to crack open complete arcane again, especially if there are more than five dishes. Judge fatigue is real.

[Darrin]

Honestly up until now I thought that disputes were completely about the mechanics of a build that a judge might have pointed out were in error, or mistakes about the mechanics that the judge themselves were wrong in. The fact that the disputes are in fact, in possible regard to everything a judge as said, from power to originality, from Elegance to UoSI, makes the situation significantly more understandable.

Ideally, all disputes should be over mechanical issues. When it's over a difference of opinion... that's when the thread can balloon into 15 pages of unrepentant pedantry. But yes, you are correct, there is no ironclad rule that says a judge *must* respond to a dispute, or change a score. The precise manner in which such an issue like that would be resolved would most likely be messy. We've had issues in the past where a judge's rubric or methodology was at severe odds with the rest of the Iron Chef Community, but I'm not sure it'd be all that helpful to look back on those events.

Through if I may follow this up with a different question: What do people believe is the harder task, to create a dish, or to judge the dishes?

Getting an idea or gimmick that works is probably the hardest part. Judging is easier in that you don't have to stumble on that creative spark of imagination to build a dish around. You just have to examine what other people have come up with and determine a score.

I find that my biggest worry about judging is the time requirement. As a judge, you don't have any control over how many entries are submitted. This is a fairly small round, but Anointed Knight had *23* entries. Some judges volunteer at the start of the thread, but most of them volunteer after the builds are posted. If you're worried about the time involved, you can wait to judge until a round comes along with a small number of entries.

Two important things to keep in mind:

1) Regardless of the number of entries, the judge decides entirely on how much time they want to spend on each entry. You can spend hours/days bookdiving on each one, or "eyeball" it after a read-through.

2) The scoring methodology is almost entirely up to the judge. You can add or subtract increments of 0.25 up or down, or use whole numbers, run mock combats (*NOT* recommended), or throw darts at a dart board. At the end of the day, you have to come up with a number between 1 and 5, so in theory it's not nearly as complicated as some judges make it out to be. In practice... um... yeah.

I personally don't think you need to submit a dish before judging... with one caveat: being the *ONLY* judge is much harder, because you have nothing else to compare your numbers to, and if you mess something up, there aren't any other scores to average things out. Also, if there's any disputes, then it's inevitably going to involve you. So if we're looking at a "single judge" round, then I'd prefer that judge to have some experience, either as a chef or a judge. (On the other hand... if we're down to a single judge, odds are good that we're probably desperate for anyone to judge.)

I will say this about judging, though: you learn *MORE* about how to build a better dish by judging than you do by competing. When you understand how every gimmick works, it gives you a much bigger toolbox on future dishes because you have a lot more ideas to sift through.

[Korahir]

Honestly up until now I thought that disputes were completely about the mechanics of a build that a judge might have pointed out were in error, or mistakes about the mechanics that the judge themselves were wrong in. The fact that the disputes are in fact, in possible regard to everything a judge as said, from power to originality, from Elegance to UoSI, makes the situation significantly more understandable.

Through if I may follow this up with a different question: What do people believe is the harder task, to create a dish, or to judge the dishes?

Judging is harder because it requires a broader skill set if it is done properly. You need system mastery to understand all the things the contestant didn't write down (which is usually a lot) and you need social skills which includes mastering English to a degree to deliver judgement in a way that contestants can accept your evaluation. On top it is more time consuming than contesting (at least for me).
Entering the contest is relatively easy in comparison. My builds usually revolve around an idea for a character trait more than a mechanical idea but I prefer if i can fuse both aspects. You don't need to find the newest optimization method to place in these contests. Often it is more likely you place if you build a full character no matter if he/she/it is funny, tragic, horrifying or simply inconceivable. Some of the most praised builds didn't even win.

[WhamBamSam]

Kind of a shame I never got around to hammering out a build, but ah well. The tricks I was considering didn't show up in any of the builds, so I figure I might as well mention some of them now.

You can actually enter Twisted Lord a level early if you can get an unspecified bonus feat to use on Primary Contact at 5th level. Among the ways to do this are Human Paragon 2 (also good for getting Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill on a Cha focused SI with a few ways to render people flat-footed) and Marshal 1 (which also pumps up all the face skills the SI makes use of) when you already have Skill Focus (Diplomacy). I'm actually a little surprised no one went for either of these, especially given the corresponding need for membership in an organization.

I was rather enamored of Twist Target, and wanted to come up with ways of a) setting it up, and b) taking further advantage.

Setting it up meant going through my usual list of mundane repositioning methods (Bull Rushing and Setting Sun Throws being generally the most reliable).

For taking further advantage, I came up with the Defensive Rebuke maneuver and the Opportunist ability from Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6. Defensive Rebuke has the slight issue that you need to actually strike your opponent to make it work which is somewhat problematic when it takes a standard action to use Twist Target. Ninja of the Crescent Moon requires BAB +6, but it's possible to get to Twisted Lord 9/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6 using the above Primary Contact trick, and making an enemy hit their ally to open up that ally to another attack by you is just funny.

I was also very keen on Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 1 as a way of getting the Insightful Feint spell and Travel Devotion which would have opened up the swift action to feint or move so that the move action could be put toward demoralization or a full-round action of some sort.

Builds I considered...

Dvati Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric/Dungeon Crasher (Thug?) Fighter/Crusader/Twisted Lord. One twin uses Defensive Rebuke, then bull rushes an enemy of choice into an ally and hopefully a wall (which hopefully counts as 'striking' them). The other twin then uses Travel Devotion to move adjacent if necessary or casts Insightful Feint to allow the first twin to feint as a free action, demoralizes as a move action, then uses Twist Target to make the Defensive Rebuked enemy stab his friend. This then provokes an AoO from the first twin which might be against a flat-footed target if Insightful Feint was used. Has some multiclass penalty issues, and I feel I overuse Dvati.

Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 1/Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Monk 2/Hit-and-Run Fighter 1/Marshal 1/Twisted Lord 9/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6. Pretty straightforward Double Hit build with the exception of the Twist Target+Opportunist trick. Didn't really hammer out the stub, but would have likely been very feat-tight and probably couldn't have squeezed in all the tricks I wanted.

Human (Feat?) Rogue 1/Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 2/Human Paragon 2/Twisted Lord 9/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6. Probably less good at the overall schtick, but has a little more casting and Iaijutsu Focus, which the other can't get without a flaw.

[Rizban]

Huh. The half build I had was Beguiler 10/Twisted Lord 10 with a couple of small shenanigans. I knew i wasn't going to have time to finish it though, so I decided to judge. Still, I expected at least someone to have submitted a Beguiler what with the swift action feint and other useful abilities.

I'll get started on judging as soon as I get home this evening.

Human (Feat?) Rogue 1/Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 2/Human Paragon 2/Twisted Lord 9/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6. Probably less good at the overall schtick, but has a little more casting and Iaijutsu Focus, which the other can't get without a flaw.

That actually sounds fun to play. Ninja of the Crescent Moon is also a fantastic class.

[DeTess]

I'm surprised no one did a build with scarlet corsair to try and take advantage of move action mass demoraliziations. This would have basically locked you into sneak attack acf fighter 5/ Scarlet corsair 5/twisted lord 10, but it might have been and interesting idea.

[Inevitability]

I'm surprised no one did a build with scarlet corsair to try and take advantage of move action mass demoraliziations. This would have basically locked you into sneak attack acf fighter 5/ Scarlet corsair 5/twisted lord 10, but it might have been and interesting idea.

I considered it, but as you say getting 5 Scarlet Corsair and 10 Twisted Lord levels proved too problematic. I eventually settled on a different, somewhat more unconventional, build that got me everything I wanted as well, so no harm done there.

[PanosIs]

My own idea was to go Rogue 1/Bard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Nightmare Spinner 2/Twisted Lord 10, with Practiced Spellcaster and Craven to scale to caster level and working with fear escalation, too bad I didn't get to post (exam term sucks). Some builds are interesting but to be honest, I am kind of disinspired with this S.I., it was kind of a weird one.

[The Viscount]

I'm very surprised we didn't see Avenging Executioner, though then again it was something I stayed away from for being "too obvious." Vizzini strikes again!

[Thurbane]

I just realized a huge error in my entry, and have requested it be withdrawn.

I realized it when I woke up this morning, and was hoping we hadn't had the reveal.

[The Viscount]

Are you sure about that? It's possible to be rated well even if there's a hitch in the build, it's happened to me before in the Cipher Adept round.

[Thurbane]

Are you sure about that? It's possible to be rated well even if there's a hitch in the build, it's happened to me before in the Cipher Adept round.

No, I had only submitted a rough draft of my entry to the chair, to show I was working on it.

It was nowhere near finished - had it been just that, I might have let it stand. But the glaring error in the build clinches it for me.

[Sian]

But yes, you are correct, there is no ironclad rule that says a judge *must* respond to a dispute, or change a score.

Eh, I recall a handful or such of judgings that have been binned because the Judge didn't respond to disputes pointing out clear mechanical misunderstandings (for an example detracting points for using some cheese not using it, in particular one that dinged for Dragonwrought, on a build that didn't use it)

[Darkcouch]

I was contemplating a dvati hexblade 4 / binder 3 / Twisted lord 10 / ?? 2 that made liberal use of demoralize and specialized in Twist Mind. Hexblade provides much needed survivability along with debuffs from his hex and dark companion and binding Fulcor gives additional debuffs. Both debuffs are only adjacent squares so they don't effect each other if they stay 5 feet apart. The twins set each other up for sneak attacks and twisted abilities and eventually are able to pretty reliably control 2 enemies each encounter to do the fighting for them.

I was having trouble coming up with anything relevant to use as my last 2 levels that didn't impose a multiclassing penalty, but I might have just ate the elegance penalty to grab some utility out of Dragon Shaman and Marshal.

This class was harder than I thought it would be to optimize because most feats and prestige classes I looked at including upstaged the Twisted Lord abilities. I know you can feint/intimidate as a move action, but lets make that irrelevant by taking a swift action feint/intimidate skill. So you can do cool stuff to enemies that are shaken, lets ramp the fear effects and make those skills inapplicable.

[Macabaret]

Well, it looks like I didn't make it in time. Oh, well.
I still wouldn't mind a bit of feedback from those willing.

Spoiler: Parts of what would have been my entry

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Spoiler: Build Table

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Level	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	Ranger 1	+1	+2	+2	+0	4 Bluff 4 4 Gather Information 4 1 K: dungeoneering 1 1 K: geography 1 4 K: local 4 4 K: religion 2 4 Listen 4 4 Sense Motive 4 4 Spot 4 4 Tumble 4	1st: Apprentice (criminal); B: Devil's Favor; B: Urban Tracking	; Rival Organization: Ebon Cabal +2; Voice of the City
2nd	Ranger 2	+2	+3	+3	+0	1 Bluff 5 1 Gather Information 5 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 1 K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 5 - Sense Motive 4 1 Spot 5 1 Tumble 5 2 Skill Trick: Listen To This	--	Combat Style (melee)
3rd	Ranger 3	+3	+3	+3	+1	1 Bluff 6 1 Gather Information 6 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 6 2 Open Lock 1 1 Search 1 1 Sense Motive 5 1 Spot 6 - Tumble 5 - Skill Trick: Listen To This	3rd: Law Devotion; B: Endurance	--
4th	Ranger 4	+4	+4	+4	+1	1 Bluff 7 1 Gather Information 7 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 7 - Open Lock 1 2 Search 3 2 Sense Motive 7 1 Spot 7 - Tumble 5 - Skill Trick: Listen To This	B: Combat Expertise	Urban Companion
5th	Ranger 5	+5	+4	+4	+1	1 Bluff 8 1 Gather Information 8 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 8 - Open Lock 1 1 Search 4 1 Sense Motive 8 1 Spot 8 - Tumble 5 - Skill Trick: Listen To This 2 Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Rival Organization: Ebon Cabal +4, Luminous Order +2
6th	Ranger 6	+6/1	+5	+5	+2	- Bluff 8 1 Gather Information 9 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 2 Search 6 1 Sense Motive 9 1 Spot 9 - Tumble 5 2 Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	6th: Ancestral Relic	Improved Combat Style
7th	Shadowstriker 1	+7/2	+7	+5	+4	- Bluff 8 - Gather Information 9 2 Intimidate 2 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 - Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 - Spot 9 - Tumble 5 2 Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Badge of Office; Luminous Weapon
8th	Uncanny Trickster 1	+7/2	+7	+7	+4	1 Bluff 9 - Gather Information 9 9 Intimidate 11 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 - Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 - Spot 9 - Tumble 5 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Bonus Trick (Never Outnumbered); Favorite Trick (Group Fakeout)
9th	Uncanny Trickster 2	+8/3	+7	+8	+4	3 Bluff 12 3 Gather Information 12 1 Intimidate 12 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 - Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 3 Spot 12 - Tumble 5 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	9th: Devil's Aura	Bonus Trick: Clarity of Vision; Favorite Trick: Never Outnumbered; Smite Evil 1/day; Sun's Blessing
10th	Uncanny Trickster 3	+9/4	+8	+8	+5	1 Bluff 13 1 Gather Information 13 1 Intimidate 13 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 - Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 1 Spot 13 - Tumble 5 6 Use Magical Device 6 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Bonus Trick: Spot the Weakpoint; Favorite Trick: Timely Misdirection; Surge of Piety
11th	Twisted Lord 1	+9/4	+8	+10	+5	1 Bluff 14 1 Gather Information 14 1 Intimidate 14 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 - Listen 9 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 1 Spot 14 - Tumble 5 6 Use Magical Device 12 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Twisted Form
12th	Twisted Lord 2	+10/5	+8	+11	+5	1 Bluff 15 1 Gather Information 15 1 Intimidate 15 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 3 Listen 12 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 1 Spot 15 - Tumble 5 3 Use Magical Device 15 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	12th: Craven	Sneak Attack +1d6
13th	Twisted Lord 3	+11/6/1	+9	+11	+6	1 Bluff 16 1 Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 16 1 Intimidate 16 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 4 Listen 16 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 - Sense Motive 9 1 Spot 16 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 16 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	B: Improved Feint	--
14th	Twisted Lord 4	+12/7/2	+9	+12	+6	1 Bluff 17 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 17 1 Intimidate 17 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 17 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 4 Sense Motive 13 1 Spot 17 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 17 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Peripheral Invisibility
15th	Twisted Lord 5	+12/7/2	+9	+12	+6	1 Bluff 18 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 18 1 Intimidate 18 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 18 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 4 Sense Motive 17 1 Spot 18 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 18 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	15th: Mindsight	Sneak Attack +2d6
16th	Twisted Lord 6	+13/8/3	+10	+13	+7	1 Bluff 19 1 Decipher Script 1 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 19 1 Intimidate 19 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 19 - Open Lock 1 - Search 6 2 Sense Motive 19 1 Sleight of Hand 1 1 Spot 19 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 19 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Improved Demoralize
17th	Twisted Lord 7	+14/9/4	+10	+13	+7	1 Bluff 20 - Decipher Script 1 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 20 1 Intimidate 20 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 20 - Open Lock 1 3 Search 9 1 Sense Motive 20 - Sleight of Hand 1 1 Spot 20 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 20 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Twist Target
18th	Twisted Lord 8	+15/10/5	+10	+14	+7	1 Bluff 21 - Decipher Script 1 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 21 1 Intimidate 21 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 21 - Open Lock 1 3 Search 12 1 Sense Motive 21 - Sleight of Hand 1 1 Spot 21 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 21 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	18th: Devil's Tongue	Sneak Attack +3d6
19th	Twisted Lord 9	+15/10/5	+11	+14	+8	1 Bluff 22 - Decipher Script 1 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 22 1 Intimidate 22 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 22 - Open Lock 1 3 Search 15 1 Sense Motive 22 - Sleight of Hand 1 1 Spot 22 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 22 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Twist Perceptions
20th	Twisted Lord 10	+16/11/6/1	+11	+15	+8	1 Bluff 23 - Decipher Script 1 - Disable Device 1 1 Gather Information 23 1 Intimidate 23 - K: dungeoneering 1 - K: geography 1 - K: local 5 - K: religion 2 1 Listen 23 - Open Lock 1 3 Search 18 1 Sense Motive 23 - Sleight of Hand 1 1 Spot 23 - Tumble 5 1 Use Magical Device 23 - Skill Trick: Collector of Stories - Skill Trick: Group Fake-out - Skill Trick: Listen To This - Skill Trick: Timely Misdirection	--	Twist Mind

The concept here would have been to be a lawful good member of the Luminous Order going undercover to infiltrate (and eventually expose and take down) the Ebon Cabal.
So, what better than a Hellbred? Good, but yet somehow tainted. Fully aware of what real terror is and willing to let you see it reflected in his eyes.
Some points of interest:

• The Urban Class Features web article gives the ranger a Rival Organization instead of a Favored Enemy. It changes the skills for the granted bonus to a list which includes both Bluff and Intimidate.
• Urban Class Features also allows a shift from an Animal Companion to an Urban Companion, which functions like a familiar but with more hit points. The raven can use the hellbred's skill ranks for intimidate (but as a tiny creature with a horrible Cha, it won't have a great chance to demoralize.) It can also take a crack at using UMD to use a wand of Manifest Nightmare (Heroes of Horror). It's the perfect spell for a Twisted Lord's familiar. A successful save (which is probably going to happen off of a wand) means the target is shaken for the round. And that save is repeated every round for the duration (which is based off of concentration). So, a little birdie uses the wand and continues to concentrate round after round. The foe is shaken. The Twisted Lord uses Twist Target or Twist Perceptions. The foe is no longer shaken. The foe has to make another save (and probably will) and thus goes back to being shaken. Rinse. Repeat.
• At sixth level, about the time he's hitting an affiliation score of 5 in the Ebon Cabal, he gets an Ancestral Relic. Yup, that Cloak of the Ebon Cabal was his father's! Eventually, there will be room enough in the Cloak's price to add on a few uses per day of Schism. Hellbred can use telepathy at 15th level, making the act of commanding someone (via Twist Target or Twist Perceptions or Twist Mind) a purely mental action. (Though, I will admit, that term is rather ill defined in game terms, but it seems likely to work in this manner at most tables.)
• Shadowstriker 3 (gained via Uncanny Trickster 3) grants Surge of Piety, which offers a mechanic to make undead creatures count as shaken. I was imagining the Ebon Cabal as being run by a lich. How satisfying to use Surge of Piety followed up with Twist Mind and tell the lich to get his phylactery and destroy it?

[Darrin]

Sounds like a lot of good ideas that didn't quite get into a full entry.

Streblobial Magistration

Entry	Alignment/Race	Stub	Schtick	Judge: Rizban
Handsome Malcolm (link)	NE Silverbrow Human	SA Zhent Thug Fighter 9/Chameleon 1/Twisted Lord 10	Absorb Weapon Feintmancy	15.25
Vreeb Veebilbrixt (link)	NE Insectile Diopsid	Thug Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Twisted Lord 5/Warblade +1/Twisted Lord +5	Armed and Multitasked	13.75
Two-Faced Ivan (link)	LE Desert Half-Orc	Thug Fighter 2/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Menacing Brute 5/Twisted Lord 10	Gazed and Confused	12.75
Gajsan (link)	CN Diabolus	Mountebank 6/Twisted Lord 10/Uncanny Trickster 3	Satanic Panic	8
Grim Maven (link)	TN/CN Whisper Gnome	Rogue 7/Swordsage 2/Twisted Lord 10/Swordsage +1	TWF Stabbiness	7.75

I only see one confirmed judge: Rizban. Any other hats in the ring?

[The Blade Wolf]

If Rizban follows through, I will likely through together a rough one myself.

[Rizban]

I've got the first three judged. Still working my way through the list though. I've ended up having a much busier week than I anticipated.

[Darrin]

Well. Still kinda quiet in this thread.

I noticed a flaw in the adventure. I'll SPOILER it for those of you who don't want to know the details of the plot:

Spoiler

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The succubus should be the one in charge. Laurazhi is presented to the PCs as a "damsel in distress", and depending on the results of a Diplomacy check, she can either aid the PCs, betray them, or do both. Regardless of whether the PCs expose her true form, all she cares about is getting back to the Abyss. To open the gate, you need the Ark of the Resurgent Mountain, the sigil completed by the derro, and the Tome of Slaughtergarde. According to the adventure, she's nominally working for Gashkarr, but he's apparently trying to extort her to "earn her way back". But the puzzling thing is... Gashkarr's Will save is only +4. Laurazhi's charm monster SLA is at will and the DC is 22. So Laurazhi can charm him with an 85% success rate. In fact, she can charm darn near everything in the module with a pretty good success rate.

The derro have already finished the missing sigil. It's not clear if the gnolls know it's finished... it doesn't look like it, but all Gashkarr or Laurazhi would have to do is walk into the room and ask for it. The Ark is also ready to go... why hasn't it been moved into the gate room already? If Laurazhi asks them to move it and they refuse... well, she can step out of the room, change shape into Gashkarr, and order them to do it *NOW*! If that doesn't work, she can turn on the charm. The only thing she'd need after that would be the Tome of Slaughtergarde. And it's not like Gashkarr isn't already planning to open the gate... his efforts to threaten or extort something from Laurazhi would be short-lived. At best, he may get lucky and roll 18+ on his Will save, but since it's something she can do at will, he's still just a standard action away from being wrapped around her finger: "Hey, Gashkarr sweetums, let me borrow your booky-wook..."

So. Yeah. I don't think the designers understood the full implications of putting a succubus into the adventure.

[Zaq]

Man. I Vizzini'd myself right out of a Dread Necromancer entry. It qualifies easily since it gets the necessary skills, and that fear aura is a great way to impose shaken as a free action (leaving a move action for getting near the victim and a standard action for invoking Twist Whatever). But I thought that it was way too obvious, so I talked myself out of it.

I . . . might judge. I am uncomfortable committing just yet, but I think it would be fun if I can keep myself sufficiently organized.

[Inevitability]

Man. I Vizzini'd myself right out of a Dread Necromancer entry. It qualifies easily since it gets the necessary skills, and that fear aura is a great way to impose shaken as a free action (leaving a move action for getting near the victim and a standard action for invoking Twist Whatever). But I thought that it was way too obvious, so I talked myself out of it.

I . . . might judge. I am uncomfortable committing just yet, but I think it would be fun if I can keep myself sufficiently organized.

First, thanks for (maybe) judging.

Secondly, I must've said Dread Necromancer never crossed my mind. I did very briefly consider a build that would enter both Twisted Lord and Dark Scholar and would therefore have quite a bit of casting, but never considered using DN for the casting part.

[KrimsonNekros]

Damn wish I'd gotten my idea put together for this. I was looking at a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny build.

[Zaq]

First, thanks for (maybe) judging.

Secondly, I must've said Dread Necromancer never crossed my mind. I did very briefly consider a build that would enter both Twisted Lord and Dark Scholar and would therefore have quite a bit of casting, but never considered using DN for the casting part.

Don't thank me until I actually do it. With regards to the other parts of my life, I've accomplished less in the last few days than I had anticipated, so I might not have as much free time as I'd like over the next week or two.

Using Dark Scholar and Twisted Lord together would certainly be amusing, though I think I can see why you didn't go for it (they don't actually have any mechanical synergy to speak of). Did you get far enough to come up with a stub to share, or was it just a vague idea that didn't get far enough to turn into a skeleton?

[Inevitability]

Using Dark Scholar and Twisted Lord together would certainly be amusing, though I think I can see why you didn't go for it (they don't actually have any mechanical synergy to speak of). Did you get far enough to come up with a stub to share, or was it just a vague idea that didn't get far enough to turn into a skeleton?

Just a vague idea.

[Rizban]

I've just got one more to go through. I should have it done this evening when I get home.

[Rizban]

I'm going to start out my judging by listing the things I expect to see in the builds. At the time of writing this preface, I haven't looked at any of the builds, because they haven't yet been posted.

Originality – The most obvious entry here is Rogue with the most obvious secondary being SA/Thug Fighter. Rogue is a bit more expected, because it also boosts Affiliation score and has better skill points. I also expect to see a Beguiler and perhaps also a Hexblade focused on stacking debuffs.
I expect to see Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered, because it is both obvious and effective.
That said, I want see characters, not just builds. I want to see some fluff to the build and some internal logic for why the character goes the direction it does, most specifically why the character chose the path of the secret ingredient over something else.

Power – My baseline expectation for Power is Move Action Demoralize, Swift Action Feint, Standard Action Attack. With several different ways to achieve this and the class lending itself particularly well towards this tactic, I feel it makes a good metric for judging Power. If you can't do this or something else more effective than this routine, expect a ding. Anything added to this routine or more efficient will be given a higher score, and anything that's a focus of the build that is less efficient than this will be given lower. Simply having other options doesn't ding you unless you've invested heavily into doing something lesser.
Since this is my baseline expectation on Power, I will not be dinging points on Originality for aiming a build at this routine.

Elegance – I like even numbers and simplicity. The fewer sources and options you need to pull off your main shtick, the higher the Elegance score will typically be. I also like really convoluted, twisted, and strange ideas that hit you from out of nowhere designed to accomplish a particular esoteric goal. If you have a weird, bizarre solution to something that can't be easily achieved any other way, you'll also gain points in Elegance for your quirky optimization. Make it simple and sleek or make it beautiful in its complexity, and you gain points. Meandering through things without accomplishing anything meaningful or grabbing random tidbits to fill an empty slot without adding anything to the build will ding you.
I don't consider "table readiness" a factor in Elegance unless your build would outright destroy a campaign. If your build is an obvious fun killer, then it'll get a ding, otherwise it's based entirely on the skillfulness of the design.

Use of SI – I expect full levels in the Secret Ingredient. Each missed level will ding you for points. To earn full points, you must have every level of the SI and make use of all or most of the SI's features. The more central to your build concept, the better your score. If the SI isn't meaningful to your build or taking it actually hurts the build, then you'll lose points.
If you fail to qualify for the PrC before entering it, you'll get a ding.

---

Grim Maven (7.75)

Spoiler

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Originality (1.5)
You don't really have a character here. The build is nice enough, but there's no real characterization. (-1)

Rogue is the most obvious entry (-0.5)

Power (2.25)
You don't hit my Power baseline (-0.5), but you do make up for it in other ways, primarily using martial maneuvers to make extra attacks (+0.25)

You have meaningful Sneak Attack damage at +9d6 and can potentially make numerous attacks (+0.25).

You take Dodge+Titan Fighting, two feats to gain +4 dodge AC against a single Medium+ sized target. I don't understand the choice here. The benefit isn't really worth the two feats when you already have +5 or more from Dex, nor do you mention either feat anywhere in your build. (-0.5)

Two-Weapon Fighting is useful, since you're focused on using two weapons through various means, but I'm not sure what ITWF and GTWF will be adding to most encounters. Yes, it gives more attacks to utilize your SA damage, but you don't have a full attack build here. The vast majority of the time, you'll be using standard action attacks and maneuvers that gain no benefit from the other two feats. I don't see a reliable method of setting up full attacks if you aren't already in position. With the emphasis on Jump and Tiger Claw maneuvers, I was frankly surprised that you did not take Sudden Leap. (-0.25)

Elegance (2)
I don't see how you qualify for the PrC in the first place. You have no back story increasing your affiliation score, and I count a score of only 5 when you enter the class. (-1)

I had trouble checking your skills, as you made several mistakes throughout the table, usually with not actually increasing the skill ranks at levels that you clearly meant to. Your BAB is also misnumbered. (-0.25)

You use only two base classes and the SI, which is simple enough. (+0.25)

Use of Secret Ingredient (2)
You take all 10 levels of Twisted Lord. (0)

While you do mention using the abilities, the main one you mention using is Peripheral Invisibility, which just duplicates something you already have. You focus some on Twist Perceptions and Twist Mind, but with only a +1 Cha and nothing else in the build that supports them, that's a DC 21 vs a +15 or higher Will save, i.e. not useless but not reliable. (-1)

It seems that the only thing this build benefits from is the sneak attack progression, and there are better classes for doing that. You do, however, make use of some of the features, and taking Twisted Lord doesn't unduly hurt your build. While it does give you some options, none of them really seem better than what you already have. (0)

Handsome Malcolm (15.25)

Spoiler

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Originality (2.5)
SA/Thug Fighter is the obvious entry (-0.5)
You also take Imperious Command+Never Outnumbered, which was expected (-0.5)

Your build approaches from a direction I did not expect at all (+0.5)

Power (4.5)
You hit my baseline Power metric with your build, albeit with swift action demoralize rather than with a swift action feint. With magic, however, you manage to get a free action feint, leaving you with an open move action. Action economy is king. (+1)

You use the only method I know of to easily get a 24 hour demoralize on someone, as a swift action, and you can hit an entire group, making them all cower for 1 round then be shaken for a day, allowing for using your Twisted Lord abilities or for easier fear escalation later. That's about the best Intimidate can get. (+0.75)

And all of that only costs you nine levels of Fighter... (-0.25)

You have meaningful Sneak Attack damage at +8d6+20 and can make good use of it in combat by incapacitating foes. (+0.25).

Unfortunately, your Will save is rather low, and that extra -2 to fear from Craven means you're likely to be as afraid of them as they are of you. (-0.25)

Elegance (4)
You pick up two skill tricks at level 13, which is a rules violation, though you could have shuffled one of them to another level and been okay. (-0.5)

You use only one base class and the SI, which is simple enough, and the abilities work together almost seamlessly. (+1.5)

The one-level dip into Chameleon is a bit jarring to the simplicity of it, but you do it for very good reasons. (0)

Use of Secret Ingredient (4.25)
You take all 10 levels of Twisted Lord. (0)

You make good use of the bonuses from twisted form, sneak attack, and Improved Feint, but you gain little from improved demoralize. You're already doing it faster, but being able to demoralize with any action type you need is pretty good. (+1)

You keep your foes shaken for 24 hours at a time, so you're perfectly setup to use the three high level twists whenever you need them without extra actions needed to demoralize your target, and you have the Cha mod to make them usually stick (DC 26, before magic); however, I would have liked to have seen how you would use them rather than just saying that you can. (+0.5)

Peripheral Invisibility seems to be the only class feature you don't readily use. (-0.25)

Gajsan (8)

Spoiler

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Originality (3.25)
You take Imperious Command+Never Outnumbered, which was expected (-0.5)

Mountebank was completely unexpected. (+0.75)

Power (2)
You don't hit my Power baseline (-0.5)

The build doesn't really seem to have anything particularly good as far as power goes. It has low precision damage (5d6+20) and a minor debuff trick and not much else. When you factor in that half of your precision damage comes from having a mere +4 Will save vs fear at level 20 and no methods of overcoming that, you're pretty much not going to be able to even act against anything even remotely scary, which is supposed to be your shtick. (-1)

You have access to alter self shenanigans on an Outsider. You mention a few forms, but there's nothing really explaining how those forms really contribute to the build. Still, it's probably the strongest aspect of your build. (+0.5)

Elegance (1.75)
I'm pretty sure that Uncanny Trickster doesn't work like that. It effectively progresses the class features of a class you have by one level. It doesn't just add extra sneak attack dice. (-1)

Knowledge (local) isn't a class skill for Uncanny Trickster, so your skills are off on your final two levels. (-0.25)

Your build invested resources into several options that look like it was setting up to do a few different things, but then it never really followed through with anything I would expect to see, Assassin's Stance for example.

Use of Secret Ingredient (1)
You take all 10 levels of Twisted Lord. (0)

I'm really not sure what Twisted Lord adds to this build. Yes, it's also mostly Charisma based, but other than ability synergy, I don't see it. Beguiling Stare works with the deceptive attack and sneak attack, so that's fine. He has a "demoralize engine," but it doesn't stack with Beguiling, because Intimidate doesn't offer a save but an opposed level check. You mention twisted form helps, but you don't mention any of the higher twists at all, and admit that feinting is useless if they're under a beguiling effect. It really seems as though the two halves of your build work against each rather than for each other. (-2)

Two-Faced Ivan (12.75)

Spoiler

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Originality (2.5)
Thug Fighter is one of the expected entries (-0.5)
You take Imperious Command+Never Outnumbered, which was expected (-0.5)

Despite the Charisma focus, I did not expect to see any Paladins. (+0.5)

Power (3)
You manage to hit my Power baseline. (0)

Using the brow bind on Fearsome Mask, you get a non-action, automatic effect to impose the Shaken condition. (+0.5)
Unfortunately, the save DC on your gaze is a mere 13, meaning that it's going to happen fairly infrequently at level 12+ when you do get it working, and people can simply just not look at you to avoid it. (-0.25)

You spend a fair bit of time talking about sneak attacks, but you have very low damage at only 4d6. (-0.25)

Elegance (3.5)
You manage to complete two PrCs. I always like that. (+0.5)

Use of Secret Ingredient (3.75)
You take all 10 levels of Twisted Lord. (0)

You have multiple ways to inflict the shaken condition, so you can reliably use your higher level twists and a high enough save with them to make them worth using. (+0.5)

Improved demoralize combos well with some of your other features, and you've found a way to more reliably get use of peripheral invisibility. (+0.25)

You do make use of the sneak attack, the feinting, and twisted form, though nothing special. (0)

Vreeb Veebilbrixt (13.75)

Spoiler

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Originality (2.75)
Thug Fighter is one of the expected entries (-0.5)
Never Outnumbered (-0.25)

You have a good character entry that meshes well with the lore surrounding the SI. (+0.5)

Power (3.75)
Craven seems like a significant mistake to me. You have an effective Will save of +1 vs fear, which seems like a pretty significant drawback that's going to shut you down against pretty much anything. (-0.25)

You have multiple ways to demoralize an opponent, several as free actions or as part of other actions. This meets my Power baseline. (0)

Multitasking with 10 arms and lots of options. (+1)

Elegance (3)
You don't meet the regional prerequisite on Dreadful Wrath. (-0.25)

Lots of class dips, the insectile template on an insect, and an utterly alien and twisted build. Seems fitting. (+0.5)

Cheese, much cheese, though definitely not the most egregious use of it I've seen. (-0.25)

Use of Secret Ingredient (4.25)
You work the Ebon Cabal into your back story enough that you actually meet the affiliation prerequisite without a stretch, including use of the other affiliation rewards. (+0.5)

You have several abilities that make use of the feinting and demoralizing from twisted lord and have good bonuses on each. (+0.25)
You have good ability to use the Twists. Although the save is a little low to be reliable, you can potentially use them often enough to make them meaningful. (+0.25)
Twisted form works mechanically and thematically, which is nice. (+0.25)
Peripheral invisibility and the sneak attack seem almost an afterthought and don't really feature in the build much, although with the rest of the build, they're not useless. (0)

[The Viscount]

Thank you for judging, Rizban!

I really like explanation for your rubic.

[Heliomance]

Just one dispute this time, and given that you've had four days to PM me since the scores were posted, I think I'll assume there are no more and we can move on as soon as this one is addressed.

Two things I wanted to clear up:

1. The DC for Fearsome Mask is not high, but it is still relevant because the save is forced every round, and enemies within 10 feet are rolling at -2 from PoT. Also, looking away reduces to a 50% chance for a save, not full protection, and this gives me concealment, which is a helpful miss chance that I can use to Hide. To be completely protected they need to shut their eyes, which means total concealment.

2. It's true that I don't do as much sneak attack damage as some of the other entries, I talk about sneak attack a lot because in addition to bonus damage, it is a vehicle for terrifying strike. This is an effect that there is no save for, and it can be repeated every round, which is why I bring it up, as my goal in the build was to constantly be generating shaken targets.

Thank you for your time

[Rizban]

Two things I wanted to clear up:

1. The DC for Fearsome Mask is not high, but it is still relevant because the save is forced every round, and enemies within 10 feet are rolling at -2 from PoT. Also, looking away reduces to a 50% chance for a save, not full protection, and this gives me concealment, which is a helpful miss chance that I can use to Hide. To be completely protected they need to shut their eyes, which means total concealment.

For 500gp, a Crystal of Bent Sight removes the concealment granted to you by them averting their eyes. Shadow mask and a few other 2nd-level and lower spells can also give significant bonuses against gaze attacks. It's not a bad ability at all, which is why it gave a boost to power. It just comes online a bit late (level 12) compared to when defenses against it can be reasonably acquired, and the DC is rather low, making it less reliable.

Let's look at the average Will save of creatures from the SRD at relevant levels.

CR	Avg.	Max
10	9.11	14
11	10.3	14
12	9.08	15
13	12.4	16
14	14.0	18

Since you gain this at level 12 and assuming an on CR monster, on average, the creature will need to roll a 3 or lower on its Will save to succumb to the gaze attack. That changes to a 5 or lower if it's within 10 feet. Assuming a CR 12 creature is averting it's eyes and within 10 feet, that's only a 12.5% chance that the gaze attack hits.

At CR 13, the very next level, the average Will save is 12. That means that, on average, any creature you face will fail only on a 1. That reduces you chance of having a successful gaze attack on any given creature that is averting its eyes to 2.5%, or 7.5% if within 10 feet.

At CR 14, the average creature will fail only on a 1, regardless of distance. This isn't what I'd really consider reliable.

Secondly, I question the interpretation that a creature averting its eyes grants you concealment for the purposes of hiding. Yes, you get concealment against the one creature averting its eyes, but you don't have the "generic" concealment that I think is necessary for using Hide. If your DM does rule that it applies, all it takes is one creature in the group to not avert its eyes to completely ruin your ability to hide. Considering your gaze attack only has a range of 30 feet, any creature looking at you from outside of that range is safe from your gaze and prevents you from using Hide.

On the other hand, it does give you concealment for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage against any creature averting its gaze, so that's a benefit. The ability to more reliably deal SA damage without flanking or even using an action is partly why I rated this higher. (Edit: Actually, just having concealment doesn't grant SA. Not sure why I thought it did when responding to the dispute, other than to say I was distracted by my mother-in-law calling about the time I was writing this paragraph.) Also, from my reading of the abilities, I believe that does allow you to use peripheral invisibility against any creature averting its gaze from you, because you can use it "if no one's staring right at you." However, it goes on to further define this by saying, "you can't use peripheral invisibility if anyone succeeded on a Spot check against you or attacked you in the previous round." The RAW on this is a bit sketchy, but I'd allow it in games I run and thus gave you the benefit of the doubt. (Edit: Oh, I was conflating the two abilities, allowing for concealment to grant peripheral invisibility to grant sneak attack. So, yeah, I got that right, just explained incorrectly.)

Overall, I feel that the cumulative score on Power from this particular ability is accurate.

2. It's true that I don't do as much sneak attack damage as some of the other entries, I talk about sneak attack a lot because in addition to bonus damage, it is a vehicle for terrifying strike. This is an effect that there is no save for, and it can be repeated every round, which is why I bring it up, as my goal in the build was to constantly be generating shaken targets.

Thank you for your time

As far as the Power score goes, I evaluated Sneak Attack within the realms of using SA. Your damage is pretty low, and while Terrifying Strike does render a target shaken, it's explicitly for only 1 round and does not escalate fear in any way whatsoever. It's neat but you invested just enough resources to have cost you something without investing enough to see a meaningful return.

However, I did go on to note in the Use of the Secret Ingredient section that you have multiple ways to inflict the Shaken condition. Your SA/Terrifying Strike ability was taken into consideration there and awarded a higher score. Also, having some resources invested into it kept you from losing points in that section due to simply ignoring that aspect of the SI.

Ultimately, I think this was a fair way to interpret this particular ability insofar as this character build goes and don't think the score should be adjusted unless there is a further dispute regarding something that I'm missing.

[Darrin]

I think that about wraps it up, unless Zaq and/or Blade Wolf possibly need some time to finish judging?