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2017-06-18, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Captain: Hands out re-roll 1s To Hit. Spam
PlasmaHellblasters. Jump Pack for FLY is nice. Especially since 8th Ed. says that BIKES can't climb stairs anymore.
Librarians: Jump Pack Librarians are important for the SUA (9") into Veil of Time and a first turn Charge. It's not as reliable as other armies', but it is possible.
Techmarines: Heal VEHICLES and explicitly buff Servitors. Supreme Command Detachment with x3 Techmarines and a Terminus Ultra. lol.
Chaplains: Re-roll To Hit in the Fight Phase. Helpful on Assault Terminators who are all going to be packing Thunder Hammers.
Apothecary: Heal an INFANTRY or BIKER for D3 Wounds. Unfortunately for you, none of your Characters are really worth the hassle of carting an Apothecary around.
Primaris Lieutenants: Re-roll 1s To Wound. Sit them next to Sniper Scouts and watch enemy Characters disappear.
Company Ancients: 'F* You Banner'. It's fun when it works. Doesn't work right on Centurions. But is just fine for Hellblasters. Especially when models that blow themselves up count as being destroyed, which means that they get another attack, after their Plasma weapon has exploded. Well done, GW. An Ancient hands out +1 Leadership, which is pretty much identical to using a Chaplain's Leadership, except cheaper and in the Elite slot.
Company Veterans: Take bullets - even Sniper's Mortal Wounds - for your Characters. Giving them Storm Shields is basically pointless since their whole point is to take Mortal Wounds which don't allow Saves. You could always bring an Apothecary - another Character - and bring one back.
Honour Guard: You're paying through the nose for 2+ Saves. Except it doesn't matter 'cause you're taking Mortals. Well played, GW. Honour Guard are trash tier.
Rhino Primaris: Give a unit +1 To Hit. This is extremely strong on Plasma. A '1' still fails, but because of the +1, it counts as a '2', and therefore no explodes. Winnar. It's almost like Space Marine armies for the forseeable future will be built around Hellblasters. The Rhino Primaris has nothing to do with Primaris Marines.
Land Raider Excelsior: +2 To Hit from the Rhino Primaris is neat. Otherwise it's 'Captain Land Raider' - re-roll 1s To Hit.
!Chapter Tactics
Roboute Guilliman: +3 CPs. +1 to Charge and Advance for IMPERIUM units - so he affects everything. If you're Ultramarines, gives both re-rolls To Hit and Wound.
Marnus Calgar: +2 CPs, and throws out the Chapter Master buff; Re-roll all To Hits.
Captain Sicarius: Captain. All Tactical Squads in the aura fight first in the Fight Phase, even if they didn't Charge.
Chaplain Cassius: Every time a model near him dies, on a '6', the unit that did the killing takes a Mortal Wound.
Sergeant Telion: An ULTRAMARINE SCOUT unit near him gets to re-roll To Hit.
Sergeant Chronos: Give a Vehicle BS2+, and heal a wound per turn. Can't even ride in an Excelsior or Ultra.
Captain Lysander: Captain. Models around him get +1 Leadership. An Ancient already does it. Better and cheaper.
Pedro Kantor: Chapter Master. Models around him get +1 Attack.
High Marshal Helbrecht: Chapter Master. Models around him get +1S. Not bad. But not exactly good, either.
Chaplain Grimaldus: Chaplain. BT models that roll a 6+ To Hit near him get another attack. Not quite as good as Pedro. Explicitly buffs Cenobyte Servitors.
Cenobyte Servitors: Black Templars auto-pass Morale checks. That's...Important.
Kayvaan Shrike: Chapter Master. RAVEN GUARD JUMP PACK models get to re-roll Charges. Much more reliable than a Librarian, and also better. As Veil of Time only effects one unit per turn. While Shrike effects every unit around him. So even if one unit fails the Charge, you can still get another one or two goes.
Vulan He'Stan: Captain. Models near him can re-roll To Wound with 'Melta' and 'Flame' weapons. Not totally terrible.
Kor'sarro Khan: Captain. Models near him get +1S, but only when they Charge. Helbrecht called. To tell you you suck! Remember when Kor'sarro was the best?
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2017-06-18, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Yeah, it's the same thing with Shield Drones; their invuls don't matter since their ability inflicts mortal wounds. And it's not like they can really shield your characters against non-sniper fire, since there's only a few of them.
You just lower your standards a bit for the individual units horde armies; with a big army the overall theme is what really makes it look good, not he individual model detail. Plus Guard aren't that much harder to paint than Marines, really.Last edited by Theodoric; 2017-06-18 at 03:22 AM.
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2017-06-18, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
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2017-06-18, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Right near the end of 7th I picked up the Betrayal at Calth box, with the intent of making a Battle Company. Now with 8th here, and the Battle Company dead, I don't know what to do with them. While the box intends for 3 Tactical squads, I have that box, a box of Devastators, a left over Combi Weapon and Grav Gun from another Tactical Squad box, and 5 Storm Shields. I have this slight Idea to make an army that focuses on Devastators and Sternguard. One Sternguard with Storm Shields and Combi Weapons, and another with All Plasma. Then two squads of Devastators, one with LasGrav, another with all Heavy Bolters. The Captain would get the Combi-Melta that he comes stock with and Storm Shield I had left over from a Space Wolf Terminator kit, and would stand near the Sternguard with plasma to give rerolls and for them to tank hits for him. The Shield Stern would Drop Pod or just be else where on the board. Then the 20 other Marines would be tactical squads with Melta and Plasma Cannons. I do have 4 Grav Guns, but that's not quite enough for a Grav Sternguard squad to be fully filled with. Though maybe the last guy could have a Grav Pistol and Melee weapon... Sadly I don't have any good transport for them, as I only have 1 drop pod, and I hear Rhinos are out of style, so foot Marines would be the name of the game.
Not sure what Combi weapons to go for for the Sternguard, and I would love to know if I'm making any huge mistakes. Anyone notice any errors I made?
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2017-06-18, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
I wouldn't say anything about Formations until the Codecies come out. Formations were one of the best things about 7th Ed., both in-game and on the hobby side. Formations are also in AoS and they're really, really useful. Until a Codex comes out, I wont believe that Formations are dead.
I have this slight Idea to make an army that focuses on Devastators and Sternguard.
One Sternguard with Storm Shields and Combi Weapons, and another with All Plasma.
Then two squads of Devastators, one with LasGrav, another with all Heavy Bolters.
Not sure what Combi weapons to go for for the Sternguard, and I would love to know if I'm making any huge mistakes. Anyone notice any errors I made?
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2017-06-18, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
That's odd. The Mathhammer chart here:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/...athhammer.html
shows all greens and whites (high efficiency) for the grav-cannon - the plasma cannon only becomes "green and white across the board" in Supercharge mode.
Against the highest toughnesses, armour saves, and numbers of wounds, the grav-cannon is depicted as better.
EDIT - Apparently the chart's been updated - when I look at the updated version, the grav-cannon exceeds the Plasma Cannon on Supercharge in several places - which might be why it costs more.Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-18 at 04:38 AM.
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2017-06-18, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
And that would be really useful information if you were playing 2000 Points and only had one unit of Devastators in your army and just handed your opponent a ~1800 Point advantage.
Plasma Cannons don't exist in vacuums. Especially when another option that was already mentioned was Sternguard with Combi-Meltas.
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2017-06-18, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
The updated chart shows Grav as better than Plasma against ordinary marines too.
If a weapon is better at cracking both the hardest targets (terminators, heavily armoured tanks) and Marines, the most common targets - the premium may end up being worth paying.
The question being - is the grav-cannon a bit overcosted now for what you get, or not.
There was an overview here:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/spa...warhammer-40k/
and while grav-gun special weapons were characterised as not very good - beaten by plasma guns - grav-cannon heavy weapons were characterised as still very good.
Plasma cannons were described as surprisingly good horde-killers too - comparable to heavy bolters.Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-18 at 05:03 AM.
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2017-06-18, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
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2017-06-18, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Presumably the reason for recommending a different weapon on Devastators is that they get used on higher-priority targets than the weapons in a Tactical Squad do?
Plus - they sit further back and rarely move from the rear of the board- hence, need longer range?Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2017-06-18, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
For my army I bought the Betrayal at Calth Box, a box of Devastators, I have 2 Landspeeder Storms, and 10 Scouts with Bolters and Heavy Bolters. Of the Devs, 2 Las Cannons and 2 Grav Cannons have already been built. From my bits box I pulled a Grav Gun, 3 Plasma Guns, and a Combi set. This leaves me with 5 Heavy Bolters, 2 Plasma Cannons, 2 Multi Meltas, 5 Missiles, a set of 5 Combi weapons, 6 Plasma Guns, 4 Grav Guns, 3 Meltas, 3 Flamers to equip 30 Marines with.
I could make a bunch of Sternguard, but only one unit of them can have Combi Weapons, while the other has to settle for Plasma or Grav, though comments make me think Grav Guns are in no way able to compete with Plasma Guns. I could make two Squads of Plasma Tactical Marines, but that only leaves me 10 Marines to play with for extra Stern/Devs. Which can be half for HB Devs, and the rest are Combi Melta/Plasma Stern.
Or I just ignore the idea of Tactical Squads, rely on my Scouts for Troops, and do Combi Plasma Stern, Plasma Stern, Missile Devs, HB Devs, Grav Stern with a Grav Pistol to make up numbers, and I guess a unit of Stern with the fanciest Bolters I can find for Special Issue Boltguns. This is all not counting the Terminators and Dreadnought I have too, but that's easy to figure out.
Almost want to find another BaC box for another batch of marines... Or maybe just another box of Devs.
Any advice on which to do? Or some mix of the two?
EDIT: Now seeing that Grav Tacticals would be better then Plasma Tacticals. That would work well I guess, but then I'm lost on where to put my Plasma Cannons...
EDIT 2: I'm now thinking 2 Grav Equipped Tactical Squads, a Plasma Sternguard Squad, a Dev Squad with Heavy Bolters, and a Dev Squad with 2 Lascannons and 2 Plasma Cannons. Though my Force of multiple Stern and Dev Squads still sounds cool... Can Sternguard take Heavy Weapons? I'm thinking not...Last edited by Saambell; 2017-06-18 at 06:02 AM.
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2017-06-18, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
One of the main rules of asking for advice, is that 'lists of models' don't actually help.
Your job, is to organise your list into workable squads. Upgrades and all, into what you think you want. Maybe at the end, you can put in a list of Special/Heavy subs you have available to you.
Any advice on which to do?
Now seeing that Grav Tacticals would be better then Plasma Tacticals.
Can Sternguard take Heavy Weapons? I'm thinking not...
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2017-06-18, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
If the rule said 'unmodified 1', then I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, RAW being what it is, means it's impossible to roll a '1' while you have +1 To Hit.
Sigmar plays it this way, too. That said, if you 'Do a thing on a 6', and you have a +1, then you're doing it on a 5+, etc.
It works both ways.
EDIT: One of the biggest and more infamous rules is "Re-rolls happen before modifiers..." (Rulebook, page 178).
So, if you have +1 To Hit, and a re-roll, the first roll could be a '2'. Now, if you have +1 To Hit, that should equal 3, and your Space Marine hits with his Boltgun. Unfortunately, the re-roll happens first, which means the '2' is a miss, but, the next shot will hit on a 2 (+1=3). FLG or WHTV has directly said that this rule is under review - on the block to be Errata'd.
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2017-06-18, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Looks like an autocannon predator or two is a sensible next purchase for my Death Guard. I'm thinking of trying to split two boxes of Dark Imperium with someone, convert one of the Plague Lords into a warpsmith, and then take a list which looks like:
Typhus
Sixty Poxwalkers
Bell Dude
Two squads of plague marines in rhinos
Warpsmith
2 Vindicators
2 Predators
2 Bloat-Drones
Land Raider
Tanks for days, bubblewrapped by t4 5+DR Poxwalkers. I've also got bikes and terminators for flavour.- Avatar by LCP -
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2017-06-18, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Also note that negative modifiers work the same way. So for example if you take the -1 penalty for moving and firing with heavy weapons, your chance from to die from supercharged shots doubles.
Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.
General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.
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2017-06-18, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Partially true, the reroll sidebar confirms that special rules can take place before modifiers are applied (perhaps they only meant this to ne an exception), and establishes that there must be a distinction between a roll, and a roll w/ modifiers. Unfortunately they didn't clarify beyond that and neither reading re: plasma, and whether the effect triggers on the roll or modified roll, has yet been confirmed by the devs to the best of my knowledge.
AoS may be informative, but it's not authorative.
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2017-06-18, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
There aren't too many people who are going to run around with their Devastators.
The real one is the -1 To Hit for using both profiles on a Combi-Weapon. However, you know this is a rule. So if you're spamming Combi-Plasmas on your Sergeants and/or Sternguard...Just don't do it?
I have no idea what you're looking at. Please quote the rule. Or a page number and where it is on the page. The re-roll sidebar (Page 178, or the Psychic Phase page) only says that re-rolls take place before modifers. It says nothing about special rules. The Sequencing rule then says if two things happen at the same time, the player gets to choose the order. In which case I choose the modifier to happen first, and exploding never triggers.
and establishes that there must be a distinction between a roll, and a roll w/ modifiers.
It's not that I don't believe you. It's that we don't seem to be on the same page - literally.
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2017-06-18, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-18, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Yes. Combi-Weapons are not single shot. They're literally now two weapons strapped together. The difference between a Special Weapon and Combi-Weapon is now +2 Points (the cost of a Storm Bolter tacked onto the Special Weapon), instead of whatever was going on before.
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2017-06-18, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Moving with Heavy weapons was just the first universal example that came to mind. You pointed out combi-weapons. There are also Hard to Hit modifiers from aircraft, Tau stealth modifiers (especially a Ghostkeel), Miasma of Pestilence, etc, which you might not know if you don't routinely play/play against those things.
But yeah, a little awareness will prevent any problems.Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.
General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.
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2017-06-18, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Second person to do an 8th Ed Battle Report! My night lords came back with a vengeance to refight the Thramas Crusade.
Armies and Setup.
SpoilerNight Lords
Daemon Prince - 2x Malefic Talons, Warp Bolter, Wings
Chaos Lord - Powerfist, Plasma Pistol, Jump Pack
Chaos Lord - Power Sword, Jump Pack
Sorceror in Terminator Armor
Sorceror in Terminator Armor
10x Chaos Space Marines - Plasma Gun, Power Sword, Missile Launcher
10x Chaos Space Marines - Plasma Gun, Power Maul, Missile Launcher
10x Raptors - Powerfist, 2x Flamers
5x Raptors - Power sword, 2x Meltas
5x Raptors - Lightning Claw, 2x Plasma
5x Warp Talons
Heldrake - Baleflamer
Helbrute - Reaper Autocannon
This is near enough all my Night Lords models, and comes to a shade over 100 Power Points. It's great to take everything in my list all at once, though I suspect I'm overloaded on small squads and individual models - my next few purchases are going to be more Raptors, to get to a total of three squads of ten. That should make them noticably more killy and survivable.
All three of my Psykers pick up Warptime, and the sorcerors also take the extra Mortal Wounds powers. Chaos psychic powers are pretty good - a shooty buff, a movement buff, and a damage-dealer. Warptime + Deep Strike is what I want though, to pull off a first-turn charge with my Raptors - and with my Warp Talons, who prevent people from firing Overwatch the turn they arrive.
Dark Angels
Librarian
Librarian
Interrogator-Chaplain
10x Space Marines - Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Heavy Bolter
10x Space Marines - Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Thunder Hammer, Heavy Bolter
5x Deathwing Knights
Vindicator
5x Devastators - 2x Lascannon, 2x Missile Launcher, Combi-Plasma
Imperial Knight - Thermal Cannon, Gatling Cannon
For scenario we choose Ambush - I deploy in secret around him, he tries to push through to the other side of the board and get more than half his force off. This will almost certainly mean his knight, but I have almost no weapons that can do anything but scratch it, so... so, let's try killing everything else. My CSM set up on either side of his escape route, ready to take positions in the buildings and shoot down - and also charge if needed - while my Prince, Drake, and Brute all set up to his left, ready to charge in alongside the Deep Strikers. He tries to Sieze but fails. We both forgot Warlord Traits.
Turn One
My Prince and Helbrute swoop in towards one of his tactical squads, my Marines head to the ruins they wanted, and my Reserves come on. For now, I choose to bring in only my Warp Talons, the ten-man squad of Raptors, and the Sorcerors to boost them in, plus my Terminators. For some reason his Vindicator is right at the back of the board, so the Terminators come in near that and take a few hull points off with their combi-meltas. He's got two chances to Deny my powers, so I start off raining Smites on his head, which he ignores and lets happen, and then the castings of Warptime... one fails, succeeds on a ten, and then a double-six is rolled to deny. Dammit. That means even the flamers aren't in range, and blunts my alpha strike significantly. The Helbrute and Daemon Prince charge the nearest tactical squad, and pour enough attacks into it to kill all but the sargeant, who then attacks back with the Thunder Hammer and nearly kills the Helbrute straight-up.
In his turn one, the Sargeant retreats from combat, allowing everything in the army to shoot my Prince and Heldrake, and they completely evaporate under the Knight's fire. Three of the Warp Talons die to Lascannons, and half the big squad of Raptors is killed by bolt fire, including scarily accurate shots from the Librarians. The Heldrake takes only a single wound from one squad's heavy bolter, but three of the Terminators die under a Demolisher shell.
Turn Two
I bring more of my reserves on - one of the small squads of Raptors, with a lord for backup, and the other Lord to support the warp talons. The Heldrake swoops over the devastators, baleflamering three of them, and the Sorceror fires his combi-bolter to kill the third. There are a lot of half-squads wandering around, and if I can kill them and a couple of characters, I can get him below the 50% marker and deny victory. Once again I try to cast Warptime, and once again it completely fails. I can, however, now make normal charges. The Warp Talons charge the Devastator, but one dies to Overwatch and the Librarian makes a heroic intervention, and kills the other after the devastator has been cut down. The Powerfist Raptors flame and then multicharge the interrogator-chaplain and thunder hammer sargeant... to no effect whatsoever. The terminators melta and then charge the Vindicator - that should be an easy kill point at least - to no effect. Oh. Crap. One also dies to an Overwatching Demolisher cannon.
In his turn, the Knight lifts its Gatling cannon a little and effortlessly wipes out the Heldrake, one squad of Raptors, and the last Warp Talon - and it would have got the sorceror too, had the Character rule not prevented him from assigning shots to it until the Warp talon died. The Deathwing Knights arrive and menacingly march towards my newest arrivals. It looks like we might soon start running out of time, so the next turn will be our last.
Turn Three
My last reserves - the melta-squad - come on, and fire double meltas into one librarian, and miss. There's one marine in cover preventing me from firing a ton of plasma at his other librarian, and that marine takes about twenty shots - including both missile launchers - before I can kill it with the Lord's plasma pistol. This allows me to fire two overcharged plasma guns into the librarian... to no effect whatsoever. Two lords charge the librarian and interrogator-chaplain respectively... and neither gets a kill. Man, everything has so many more wounds and nothing has more attacks. Characters need multi-damage weapons or they're not going to pull off assaults on other characters. Power X's are cheap, but hot garbage - if you have any way to mitigate the -1 to hit, take the fist (or hammer etc) instead.
In his turn - the last - one of his librarians rolls a max-damage Smite to kill my sorceror, while the knight kills both Chaos Lords. I'm down to the two squads of CSM, one Sorceror, and a few scattered raptors, while he has his Knight, three undamaged characters, and a squad of Deathwing Knights. Ultimately, we decide to call it a draw.
Aftermath
It was, at least, fun to take everything. I think I got diced here - had I pulled off either of those first-turn charges I could have wiped the units I was charging, and had I had better luck fighting his characters I could have taken one or both of them out and argued that I was on track for a victory. A baleflamer + two flamers + seven bolt pistols + ten charging raptors should have taken out a marine squad, and would have thrown so many targets in his face he wouldn't have been able to deal with them all with the knight. But 'twas not to be. Or maybe building my entire battle plan around two powers won't work? (Certainly not in Matched play - where I think a better plan is to take a big block of ten warp talons, buff them with prescience, and then warptime them in.)- Avatar by LCP -
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2017-06-18, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
I can confirm that this is true from the couple of games I played yesterday. If you can't bring numbers, bring a way to kill numbers.
With that said, I'm trying to figure out the best way to set up my Grey Knights force. I am super disappointed in how psykers work now, there's almost no point to try and use their powers.
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2017-06-18, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark
Alright, got a list, seems like something I'm ok with.
Spoiler: Battalion
HQ
Captain in Cataphractii: Chain Fist, Combi Melta
Chaplain: Bolt Pistol
Troops
Scout Squad: Bolters, Heavy Bolter
Scout Squad: Bolters, Heavy Bolter
Tactical: Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun
Elites
Contemptor: Assault Cannon
Sternguard: 4 Combi Plasma, Plasma Cannon
Heavy Support
Devastator: 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator: 4 Heavy Bolters, Cherub
Devastator: 2 Lascannon, 2 Grav Cannon
Transport
Landspeeder Storm
Landspeeder Storm
1500 points on a relative budget. $380 CAD before tax. With models left over, so there's room for growth without even buying any more. Still have another unit of Sternguard and Terminators I could add. Once there's a stand alone box for Incepters I plan to pick one or two of those up.
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2017-06-18, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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