Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Turalisj]

Since I'm trying to make my Necrons work, while I wait for a Codex Space Marines to come out so I know what colours to paint my new models, I - and the other Necron player - in my meta - and confirmed by Requizen right here in this thread - that Necrons have a lot of things that they need. Unfortunately, it's just not very good, and the improvements made in the Necron army list, doesn't measure up to the improvements made in other army lists.

In short, I'm only running Necrons until the Space Marine Codex comes out.

I'm hoping to give assaultcrons a shot, though I wish they had better transports.

[Requizen]

A couple blobs of Warriors in front of some Crypteks and Nightbringer/Deceiver/Orikan seems like it would be solid. Can't shoot the threats until you've dealt with the Warriors and that's going to take quite a while.

The Forgeworld Wraith variants in particular will probably help the army, since I'm pretty sure you can give them Meltagun equivalents, meaning you can 'Infiltrate' them with the Deciever and have pretty reliable damage output - and they're probably less points than Heavy Destroyers, at least.

Warrior blobs are great. At not dying. But at the end of the day I don't see how strong AP-1 Bolters are. Like, they're better than shooting Bolters at things, but man I really wish I could bring a Meltagun in a squad.

The C'tan, they're good in combat. But they're not that good, 4 attacks for over 200 points is not a lot. And then only a 4++ means that anything with decent attacks back gets through pretty reliably. Mine have died in every game I've used them, though I probably could be more conservative with them. It's not bad, just not the same as like a Broodlord charging in with Genestealers.

I'm hoping Acanthrites are solid, I think I could pass off my converted Wraiths as them pretty easily if I pop a gun on each model. They weren't bad last edition either.

I'm hoping to give assaultcrons a shot, though I wish they had better transports.

I think it coooould work? But it's so, so expensive other than Scarabs, you'll end up with a low model count army with only a couple units that hit hard. Tell me how it works, though, I think it could at least be fun.

[Turalisj]

Lychguard, wraits, scarabs, and flayed ones. I'm thinking... Stormlord, as the HQ? Spam scarab swarms to present a large mass of threats, keeping flayed ones back until the rest of the army is close enough to provide a hammer and anvil style maneuver.

[Gauntlet]

Warrior blobs are great. At not dying. But at the end of the day I don't see how strong AP-1 Bolters are. Like, they're better than shooting Bolters at things, but man I really wish I could bring a Meltagun in a squad.

The C'tan, they're good in combat. But they're not that good, 4 attacks for over 200 points is not a lot. And then only a 4++ means that anything with decent attacks back gets through pretty reliably. Mine have died in every game I've used them, though I probably could be more conservative with them. It's not bad, just not the same as like a Broodlord charging in with Genestealers.

That's probably true. I was thinking more in terms of ability to chop up elites units, since that seems to be what Crons need the most - weight of Gauss and Tesla fire is probably a reasonable way of dealing with infantry. You have access to plenty of ways of chopping up single wound units, at least. In particular, My Will Be Done + Tesla Immortals will absolutely shred any light units it's pointed at.

[Turalisj]

It really seems like non-troops units are your "deal with X". Vehicles.... just swarm scarabs at them, I guess? Surround them so they can't fall back and proceed to just unleash as many attacks as possible.

edit: Destroyers would work well too, I guess. Only strength 5 on gauss cannons is... meh, wounding most vehicles on a 5+, but d3 damage per wound isn't bad.

[Tvtyrant]

Since I'm trying to make my Necrons work, while I wait for a Codex Space Marines to come out so I know what colours to paint my new models, I - and the other Necron player - in my meta - and confirmed by Requizen right here in this thread - that Necrons have a lot of things that they need. Unfortunately, it's just not very good, and the improvements made in the Necron army list, doesn't measure up to the improvements made in other army lists.

In short, I'm only running Necrons until the Space Marine Codex comes out.

Aren't the two of you Maelstrom players? Necrons can abuse the deciever to scout anything they want onto points at the start of the game, and can use command points to try to get as much up there as possible.

Say three ghostarks and the deciever jump on four ppints before the game. The arka drop their troops move 1, then turn sideways end to end to make a wall across the map. Or monolith and ghost scythes, or just three warrior blobs.

[Requizen]

Aren't the two of you Maelstrom players? Necrons can abuse the deciever to scout anything they want onto points at the start of the game, and can use command points to try to get as much up there as possible.

Say three ghostarks and the deciever jump on four ppints before the game. The arka drop their troops move 1, then turn sideways end to end to make a wall across the map. Or monolith and ghost scythes, or just three warrior blobs.

Honestly? It's a bit of a trap. I ran the Deceiver the last weekend and every time I used it to jump on objectives I felt way weaker. Necrons want to clump up - a unit of Warriors by themselves far away from support units is just gonna get shot down unless you're playing with lots of LoS blockers. You want to move in a Phalanx - redundant units of dudes backed by characters buffing them both defensively and offensively. Nothing in the army can really run around independently other than maybe some of the vehicles.

[Parra]

What way do aura abilities work? Like a fire blades extra shot if the unit is within 6". Is it a single model and the unit gets it, only models in range or the entire unit or nothing?

[DaedalusMkV]

What way do aura abilities work? Like a fire blades extra shot if the unit is within 6". Is it a single model and the unit gets it, only models in range or the entire unit or nothing?

As long as one model is in range, the unit is in range for abilities that key off of the unit. Some abilities specify that the entire unit must be in range to get the benefit, but the Fireblade specifically works as long as a single model from the unit is within 6" of him.

[Theodoric]

As long as one model is in range, the unit is in range for abilities that key off of the unit. Some abilities specify that the entire unit must be in range to get the benefit, but the Fireblade specifically works as long as a single model from the unit is within 6" of him.

I'd like to add that these aura abilities also apply to the unit that exudes them itself; though in the case of the Fireblade you'd probably be better off using the Markerlight.

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, phew, Chaos Lords are rather better in close combat when they can roll well. Keeping a Flying character just behind your front lines is a great trick - when your frontline gets charged, Heroic Intervention and attack, then Fall Back across another squad, ready to repeat the trick. Using this method, in comparison with a couple of Melta shots, Zar Kell (lord, jump pack, fist, plasma pistol) was able to punch out a Knight.

[Cheesegear]

Aren't the two of you Maelstrom players? Necrons can abuse the deciever to scout anything they want onto points at the start of the game, and can use command points to try to get as much up there as possible.

The biggest problem is that Secure Objectve X, Supremecy and Domination happen at the end of your turn, whilst Reanimation doesn't happen until the start of the next turn. Which means your opponent can wreck your unit, and control the Objective, score the card, then Reanimation happens, by which point it's too late.

The other problem is that Objectives are controlled by the most models within 3" (smaller bases are better bases), and when it comes to Necrons, there aren't a whole lot of models that you can spam on an Objective - especially as they're on 32s now. Your choices are Warriors, or Flayed Ones. Neither of which are particularly great.

Necrons have a strong early game, but do not survive contact with the enemy.

Keeping a Flying character just behind your front lines is a great trick - when your frontline gets charged, Heroic Intervention and attack, then Fall Back across another squad, ready to repeat the trick. Using this method, in comparison with a couple of Melta shots, Zar Kell (lord, jump pack, fist, plasma pistol) was able to punch out a Knight.

I've found that models with the FLY Keyword are really, really good for picking out Force Multiplying models. As you can jump over the intervening unit, and Charge the Character directly, and units can't perform Heroic Intervention on a Character that's just been charged. So, Jump over the intervening unit, Charge the Character, and the unit in front just...Watches it all happen.

FLY is essentially Sniper for Melee Characters. Unless your opponent is smart, and put the Character inside the unit, rather than behind.

[Theodoric]

FLY is essentially Sniper for Melee Characters. Unless your opponent is smart, and put the Character inside the unit, rather than behind.

Well, if you're willing to risk your sniper-jumper being shot at and/or charged the next turn, of course (although if he survives, Falling back out of combat again shouldn't be a problem). Even if the enemy Character is behind a unit chances are he'd still be within 6" of that.

Depends on the army of course; assassinating Platoon (or Company!) Commanders with Flyrants, SM jump-pack characters or Farsight shouldn't be a problem.

Okay, phew, Chaos Lords are rather better in close combat when they can roll well.

Don't they hit on a 2+ with the ability to re-roll 1s?

[Gauntlet]

Don't they hit on a 2+ with the ability to re-roll 1s?

3+ RR1 if you're using a Power Fist.

[Mystic Muse]

Assuming they don't go back out of stock in 15 hours, I'll be ordering a Carnifex brood at my FLGS tonight.

[LeSwordfish]

Don't they hit on a 2+ with the ability to re-roll 1s?

As had been said, not with a fist - and you'd be amazed how badly you can flunk a 3+rr1/2+ to wound/5+ save/D3 damage sequence.

[Cheesegear]

Well, if you're willing to risk your sniper-jumper being shot at and/or charged the next turn, of course (although if he survives, Falling back out of combat again shouldn't be a problem). Even if the enemy Character is behind a unit chances are he'd still be within 6" of that.

My Destroyer Lord has racked up a few Character kills in barely a week. While my Deathmarks pick out the rest.
Unfortunately, the rest of my army isn't doing so well.
My Space Marine Captain in Jump Pack, with Power Fist and Storm Shield, is Falcon Punching dudes left and right.

I'm legitimately considering picking up my purple Blood Angels (Hawk Lords) again, due to Jump Infantry/Fly being so strong.

inb4 trash tier; Grey Knights have Jump Infantry that don't have the Fly Keyword. lol.

[Parra]

2 Tau units, both with 'For the Greater Good' and with 6" of each other. A single enemy unit declares a charge against both units, both get the standard Overwatch as they are a target of the charge. Do they then get an immediate second 'FtGG Overwatch' as an allied unit within 6" has been targeted for a charge?

Also does the Cadre fireblades ability to allow an additional shot translate to 2 shots if withing Rapid Fire Range?

[Theodoric]

inb4 trash tier; Grey Knights have Jump Infantry that don't have the Fly Keyword. lol.

Well yeah, they teleport instead. On the plus side, it makes them less susceptible to AA weapons like the hordes of IcarusOnagers I'm building. 'Cause screw T'au.

2 Tau units, both with 'For the Greater Good' and with 6" of each other. A single enemy unit declares a charge against both units, both get the standard Overwatch as they are a target of the charge. Do they then get an immediate second 'FtGG Overwatch' as an allied unit within 6" has been targeted for a charge?

Also does the Cadre fireblades ability to allow an additional shot translate to 2 shots if withing Rapid Fire Range?

-FtGG isn't an extra Overwatch, it's a modified Overwatch. The FtGG Overwatch ability doesn't say it overrides the 1 Overwatch per charge rule.

-Hmm, I'd wager an 'extra shot' is just an 'extra shot', and you don't apply rapid fire-doubling on top of that. Especially since that extra shot only ever applies to rapid fire range anyway. It's not like the weapon becomes Rapid Fire 2.

[Gauntlet]

2 Tau units, both with 'For the Greater Good' and with 6" of each other. A single enemy unit declares a charge against both units, both get the standard Overwatch as they are a target of the charge. Do they then get an immediate second 'FtGG Overwatch' as an allied unit within 6" has been targeted for a charge?

Also does the Cadre fireblades ability to allow an additional shot translate to 2 shots if withing Rapid Fire Range?

1 - No. The 'For the greater good' rule says they may fire Overwatch as if they were also targeted. Since this is already the case, FTGG does nothing for you here.

2 - No. You're always within Rapid Fire range anyway - Fireblades only work if you're within half range. The wording is "Models within <Sept> Units.. may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, rifles and carbines...". Your Rifles and Carbines fire one extra shot. If you have two guns, though (such as on a gun drone) you get two extra shots, since you resolve each gun's shooting entirely separately.

[Parra]

2 - No. You're always within Rapid Fire range anyway - Fireblades only work if you're within half range. The wording is "Models within <Sept> Units.. may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, rifles and carbines...". Your Rifles and Carbines fire one extra shot. If you have two guns, though (such as on a gun drone) you get two extra shots, since you resolve each gun's shooting entirely separately.

The implied meaning of 'within raid fire range' is that you are with half the range anyway and the rapid fire feature is activated. My question then is a 'one extra shot' one use of the weapon or +1 to the number of shots with the weapon. So with Rapid fire 1, you fire 1 shot and 2 shots when at half range. Does the Fireblade then make that 3 shots or 4, when in half range?

[Theodoric]

The implied meaning of 'within raid fire range' is that you are with half the range anyway and the rapid fire feature is activated. My question then is a 'one extra shot' one use of the weapon or +1 to the number of shots with the weapon. So with Rapid fire 1, you fire 1 shot and 2 shots when at half range. Does the Fireblade then make that 3 shots or 4, when in half range?

The rule says 'models fire one extra shot with listed weapons in half range', not 'your weapon's ability to fire shots is boosted by one'. It doesn't interact with Rapid fire at all.

[Requizen]

My Destroyer Lord has racked up a few Character kills in barely a week. While my Deathmarks pick out the rest.

I'd love to run a DLord but honestly having trouble fitting him in. I want at least one or two Crypteks and then at least one Overlord for MWBD and then oh my I've spent a lot on Characters already. Though maybe having a beatstick character is worth it.

inb4 trash tier; Grey Knights have Jump Infantry that don't have the Fly Keyword. lol.

Do people really think GK are trash? They hit so freaking hard! And lots of teleporting and Psychics, I really dig them.

[Gauntlet]

I'd love to run a DLord but honestly having trouble fitting him in. I want at least one or two Crypteks and then at least one Overlord for MWBD and then oh my I've spent a lot on Characters already. Though maybe having a beatstick character is worth it.

Do people really think GK are trash? They hit so freaking hard! And lots of teleporting and Psychics, I really dig them.

Orikan is both a Cryptek and a beatstick, might work okay in that sort of slot.

I wrote up a reply taking about Knights, but the forum ate it, so here's a shortened version.

- Terminator Librarians are actually cheaper than Marine ones and do similar things (though with a worse power list). They seem like a solid choice for GKs.

- Strike squads have 4 bolter shots per model if you teleport into rapid fire range. Seems okay, though you're spending quite a lot of points on relatively flimsy guys.


It seems like Knights have some good tools, but they would really benefit from allying in some Guard or similar stuff. Something that can sit on objectives (since numbers help there, and Knights need to be using all their guys to get stuck ing). They would also benefit from more long-range firepower.

[Cheesegear]

Do people really think GK are trash? They hit so freaking hard! And lots of teleporting and Psychics, I really dig them.

Individual GK units are really strong - and, in actual fact, Interceptors are one of the strongest units in the list, missing <Fly> Keyword included. The problem is that many people think that they can or should take Grey Knights as a solo faction - and those people are wrong. Grey Knights are missing some fundamental, key aspects of what makes 8th Ed. lists work. To get that, GKs actually need Allies. Inquisition Acolytes would be the obvious choice (because that's how it was done in 5th). But Guard/MT is the better choice.

Because some people flat out refuse Allies (including "I only like one thing, and one thing only." which I find actually quite sad), they are un/knowingly causing GKs to be trash.
Necrons can't Ally. It's not their fault. But, any refusal to bring Allies to a Grey Knight party is purely arbitrary on the players' part.

My 'GK List' would be a huge Paladin & Apothecary star unit. Back up by Space Marine Scouts with Rifles (or possibly Ratlings, depending on how many points I spend on the Paladins), with MTs SUAing with Melta/Plasma for the rest. If I've got points I might splurge on a Company Commander with a Heavy Weapon Squad - or two - to bring Lascannons so I can hit Vehicles from range. Seems solid enough. But, no-one in their right mind would call it a 'GK List'. But, the individual GK unit in the list, is very strong.

[Requizen]

I think I may enjoy GK plus Guard (aka Inquisitorial Acolytes but actual Inq seems pretty rubbish) as a list. Might try writing something up...

[Gauntlet]

Individual GK units are really strong - and, in actual fact, Interceptors are one of the strongest units in the list, missing <Fly> Keyword included. The problem is that many people think that they can or should take Grey Knights as a solo faction - and those people are wrong. Grey Knights are missing some fundamental, key aspects of what makes 8th Ed. lists work. To get that, GKs actually need Allies. Inquisition Acolytes would be the obvious choice (because that's how it was done in 5th). But Guard/MT is the better choice.

Because some people flat out refuse Allies (including "I only like one thing, and one thing only." which I find actually quite sad), they are un/knowingly causing GKs to be trash.
Necrons can't Ally. It's not their fault. But, any refusal to bring Allies to a Grey Knight party is purely arbitrary on the players' part.

My 'GK List' would be a huge Paladin & Apothecary star unit. Back up by Space Marine Scouts with Rifles (or possibly Ratlings, depending on how many points I spend on the Paladins), with MTs SUAing with Melta/Plasma for the rest. If I've got points I might splurge on a Company Commander with a Heavy Weapon Squad - or two - to bring Lascannons so I can hit Vehicles from range. Seems solid enough. But, no-one in their right mind would call it a 'GK List'. But, the individual GK unit in the list, is very strong.

Grey Knight Terminators also seem like a solid midfield Troops choice that helps you get something out of your Troops slots that the sixth Guardsmen squad doesn't really do. It's 230 points for five Terminators, and they will appear in the middle of the field and put out a reasonable number of shots before demanding some real dedicated firepower to take down.

Brigade Detachment (3 Command Points) 777 points

GK Terminator Librarian - 147
Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Halberd or Warding Stave

GK Apothecary - 90
Nemesis Force Halberd or Warding Stave

GK Terminators (100) - 460
Misc melee weapons - probably Halberds, a Stave, and maybe a few Falchions

Guardsmen (10) - 40

Guardsmen (10) - 40

Command Points, bubblewrap for anything scary the enemy does, reasonable fire power, very durable. Three units to hold objectives, can Combat Squad into more.

Note that while Grey Knight psykers must generate their powers from the Sanctic discipline, they still have the Adeptus Astartes faction keyword, which means you can target them with Veil of Time and Might of Heroes. I could see a non-GK Marine Librarian on Bike or Jump Pack being a mainstay in a lot of lists, since their buffs are solid and Null Zone is an amazing tool to have available also. Jump Pack gives you ability to go up stairs and lets you disengage from combat more easily, whereas Bike makes you a bit more resistant to snipers and slightly faster for positioning that Null Zone bubble.

[Parra]

The rule says 'models fire one extra shot with listed weapons in half range', not 'your weapon's ability to fire shots is boosted by one'. It doesn't interact with Rapid fire at all.

But it does. Fireblade ability gives you one extra shot with the listed weapons when at half range. So a 1 shot becomes 2.

Rapid Fire doubles the number of attacks it makes ifs its target is withing half the weapons range.

When in Rapid Fire Range, which is the same as the Fireblade activation range is it:
[Weapon 1 + Fireblade 1]x2 = 4 shots.
OR
[Weapon 1]x2 +Fireblade 1 = 3 shots.

[Tome]

But it does. Fireblade ability gives you one extra shot with the listed weapons when at half range. So a 1 shot becomes 2.

Rapid Fire doubles the number of attacks it makes ifs its target is withing half the weapons range.

When in Rapid Fire Range, which is the same as the Fireblade activation range is it:
[Weapon 1 + Fireblade 1]x2 = 4 shots.
OR
[Weapon 1]x2 +Fireblade 1 = 3 shots.

You always multiply before addition or subtraction (sidebar on page 175 of the big rulebook, second paragraph), so it's three shots.

[Theodoric]

But it does. Fireblade ability gives you one extra shot with the listed weapons when at half range. So a 1 shot becomes 2.

No, it gives the model the ability to fire one extra shot - with the listed weapons - when the models fire at a target within half their weapon's range. It doesn't make their pulse rifles 'Rapid fire 2 but only for half the range'; don't forget it also works on pulse carbines and pulse pistols. It doesn't modify the weapons, it modifies the soldiers carrying them.