Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Hmm. The Raven Guard chapter tactic looks pretty strong. -1 over the course of a battle means a lot less shooting hits. Seems to facilitate long ranged armies, though I guess Shrike and co can swoop in to finish enemies off.

[Brookshw]

Hmm. The Raven Guard chapter tactic looks pretty strong. -1 over the course of a battle means a lot less shooting hits. Seems to facilitate long ranged armies, though I guess Shrike and co can swoop in to finish enemies off.

Next thread title: "New Codex Blues"

[Tvtyrant]

Hmm. The Raven Guard chapter tactic looks pretty strong. -1 over the course of a battle means a lot less shooting hits. Seems to facilitate long ranged armies, though I guess Shrike and co can swoop in to finish enemies off.

Finally an excuse to spam sentry pylons.

[Mystic Muse]

Are you painting all the metallic parts by hand?

I sprayed mine with metallic spray paint then added some washes and rust effects before doing the actual details by hand. Saves an incredible amount of time.

I don't have metallic spray paint, and am not going to have income for like 4 months probably. Some weird part of me also enjoys painting it all by hand.

[Cheesegear]

Next thread title: "New Codex Blues"

I preferred Drasius' from a while back; '40K is dead. Long live 40K.'

[boomwolf]

Did they say if you need your whole army to match in order to gain tactics, or just a detachment?

[Cheesegear]

Did they say if you need your whole army to match in order to gain tactics, or just a detachment?

They repeatedly use the words 'Raven Guard army', but it looks like you'll just have to wait for the Codex. I have a feeling that the only model that will count is your Warlord.

[Turalisj]

What's considered the best crisis suit weapon now? 2 burst cannons and an ATS?

[Drasius]

What's considered the best crisis suit weapon now? 2 burst cannons and an ATS?

Given how good gun drones are, the last thing you need is more str5, especially on an overly expensive platform like crisis. Fusion commander is generally the go and IIRC, against most enemies, another gun > ATS. IIRC, the plasma on the crisis isn't terrible since it's relativly cheap and each suit can fire 6 shots since it can SUA (9"). CIB is also a reasonable compromise between the two, though can be hard to get your hands on some since they're 1/commander kit IIRC. Generally crisis are back to niche roles as they're too expensive to gen the generalists that they were. Missiles are mostly gone since you could grab a broadside for that now that crisis aren't relentless and broadsides can move and fire at only -1.

[Cheesegear]

What's considered the best crisis suit weapon now? 2 burst cannons and an ATS?

Burst Cannons are out. Because that's what Gun Drones and Fire Warriors are for. Crisis Suits can't hold Objectives. 'All 'Suits, all the time', is a dead build. Welcome to 8th.
Strength 5 AP0 isn't anything, and S6 with AP, is available for 1 Point extra. No contest.

Cyclic Ion Blasters are fine if the unit is babysitting or being babysat by a Commander/Ethereal or you're bringing a bunch of Markerlights.

Flamers are out. Fusion Blasters are definitely out (they're now on Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels or Riptides). Missile Pods are done.

Basically all Plasma Rifles, all the time. Sprinkle in a few CIBs if you're brave.

[Tome]

Eh, flamers/fusion blasters still work if you're also running stealth suits with homing beacons, since homing beacons let you come down inside 9".

Flamers in particular can be obscenely powerful, and unlike fusion blasters there's nowhere else in the codex to get them from.

[Wardog]

A few random newbie questions:
1) What is the modern equivalent of Catachan Green?

2) By a strict interpretation of RAW, it looks as though giving your army it's own name prevents it getting the full benefit of the named characters. I presume that isn't actually intended, and I can declare that e.g. "everything counts as Catachans, except for these which are Tempestus"?

3) Heavy Weapon Squads appear to be underpriced compared to Special Weapon Squads. In terms of attacks, wounds, and guns, they are both effectively 6-man squads with 3 lasguns and 3 bigger guns, and cost the same per model. But a HW £ is just 3 models, so comes out at half the price (not counting weapon upgrades). Is that correct, or have I misinterpreted something?

[Gauntlet]

3) Heavy Weapon Squads appear to be underpriced compared to Special Weapon Squads. In terms of attacks, wounds, and guns, they are both effectively 6-man squads with 3 lasguns and 3 bigger guns, and cost the same per model. But a HW £ is just 3 models, so comes out at half the price (not counting weapon upgrades). Is that correct, or have I misinterpreted something?

Rules-wise, yes that's correct. Note that having your wounds spread out over more bodies is generally beneficial - many weapons deal multiple wounds of damage per failed save, which will remove an entire heavy weapon team's base but still only kill one Guardsman. A higher model count on smaller bases also makes the unit better at taking objectives, and your squad doesn't lose much damage output for the first three wounds it takes (since you can take off the lasgun guys first) where the heavy weapons team will begin losing output after two wounds. The six-man squad is, however, more vulnerable to Morale.

In general though, the heavy weapons teams are slightly underpriced, yes.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Grey Knights
Index: Imperium I

Spoiler: Special Rules

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And They Know No Fear: Yep. It's a thing. Unfortunately, you're Grey Knights. By the time you're at the risk of failing Morale tests, your entire unit is dead anyway.

Daemon Hunters: Re-roll To Wound against <Daemons>. What do you want?

Rites of Banishment: Your Grey Knights' Smite range is reduced to 12" - which is basically fine 'cause you're still in SUA (9"). But, the true nerf is that RoB makes it so that your Smite only does 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3, even when you roll a 10+ on the Psychic test. It's kind of a big deal that your Smite is nerfed so hard. But the alternative is that every squad you own would be able to chuck out D3 Mortal Wounds basically at-will... As it is, every single model you own has an at-will Mortal Wound power, just in case. Since Smite automatically hits, and doesn't allow Saves, they're good for chucking at hard-to-hit models (e.g; Supersonic Fliers).

Teleport Strike: Every unit you own can set up anywhere 9" away from enemy models. This immediately puts you in range for your piddly 12" Smite, and it also very quickly puts you in Rapid Fire range for your Storm Bolters that all your models own. At the end of the day, this is an extremely strong ability. If your opponent hasn't brought Infiltrators and is going second, you'll have board control off the bat.

Sanctic Discipline: Nearly all your units have Psychic Powers and can pick one or more of the following Powers.
Purge Soul (5); Pick a unit. Dice battle. Do the difference in Mortal Wounds. Not special. Only reason that this is here is because your Smite sucks.
Gate of Infinity (6); Pick a <Grey Knights> unit and immediately remove it from the board and SUA (9"). This Power can turn the game during the later rounds when there are less models on the board. Combined with Teleport Strike, Gate of Infinity gives your army a huge amount of mobility long after other armies have lost their Transports. Warp Charge 6 is ridiculous.
Hammerhand (6); Pick a <Grey Knights> unit and give it +1 To Wound. Very strong for something that's WC6.

Swords vs. Halberds vs. Falchions vs. Staves (vs. Hammers) - Mathhammer TBD.
Falchions are useful because it allows your small model-count units at least try to cut through hordes.

Spoiler: HQ

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*Librarian in Terminator Armour: Comes with a Nemesis Warding Stave and Frag, Krak and Psyk-Out Grenades! As a Space Marine datasheet, he doesn't get Daemon Hunters. But, on the other hand, at least he doesn't have Rites of Banishment, either, so his Smite works perfectly normally. Unlike the Deathwatch, a GK Librarian actually is allowed to take a Storm Shield, and combined with his Nemesis Force Stave (which is free, by the way, as are all non-Hammer Force Weapons), gives him a 2++ in Melee. Don't take the Daemon Hammer, you ain't no Captain with WS2+rr1.
A Space Marine Librarian with Jump Pack, could still SUA (9") with the rest of your army, and Veil of Time affects <Adeptus Astartes> units - which happens to include Grey Knights. If you take a 'regular' Librarian, you have a not-awful chance of making a first-turn Charge with one or some of your units. The only downside is that these Librarians wont be <Grey Knights>
tagged which means you'll lose out on bonuses handed out by Grand Masters and Brother-Captains. But that's not a huge loss...Veil of Time is pretty good.

*Techmarine: Must bring a Servo-Harness. No Conversion Beamers for Grey Knights. Bring a Techmarine to patch up your inevitable Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts.

* Being Space Marines, rather than Grey Knights, they're allowed to bring Combi-Weapons. Specifically, Combi-Plasmas. However note that on a Librarian it competes with a Storm Shield.

Grand Master: Standard Space Marine re-roll 1s To Hit aura. He comes with an Iron Halo, combined with a Nemesis Stave gives you a 'Storm Shield' in combat. Giving him a Psycannon gives him some strong ranged output, albeit at -1 To Hit because you'll be moving and/or Gating around the board with impunity. The -1 To Hit, doesn't matter so much on all Space Marine Captains, as they all have 2+ combat stats as standard and then give themselves re-rolling 1s. So, yeah. Not bad. As a character-killer, you'll want to give him a Daemon Hammer...Oh wait...

Grand Master Voldus: A...Grand Master...He's got a Storm Bolter and Daemon Hammer. He pays an extra 15 Points to be 'mastery level 3', and his Hammer doesn't have -1 To Hit. Unfortunately Voldus makes regular Grand Masters kind of pointless, because 15 Points really isn't that much. Unless your Grand Master is carrying a Psycannon - and Stave. Point is, Voldus is pretty good.
...and if you buy him, you probably had to buy Roboute Guilliman as well (oh noes...), and he's not bad.

Lord Kaldor Draigo: At 50 Points above Voldus - who is already good enough - Draigo's Sword is only 1 AP better than Voldus' Hammer. Instead of Iron Halo, Draigo brought a Storm Shield. Draigo, being a 'Chapter Master', lets GKs around him re-roll all To Hits, instead of just 1s, and allows GKs in the same aura to re-roll Damage against <Daemons>, which you can take or leave.
If you don't have the cash to buy Guilliman Voldus, Draigo will serve you alright for a while. Voldus is cheaper in points, and that actually does go a long way in your Grey Knights' army. Or you could just take the Librarian.

Brother-Captain: They're not real Captains, since they don't even hand out the rr1 aura. No, their job is to double the range of Smite on GK units around them. This puts Smite with a range of 24", which you can punt from your own DZ, and your Librarians will have a whopping range of 36"! It's a shame that you can't actually pick out Characters with it. He doesn't have the rr1, so definitely stay away from the Daemon Hammer and the Heavy weapons - no point paying Points to miss.

Brother-Captain Stern: Pay 5 Points to roll <Daemons> with Smite, and gain a re-roll per turn for Stern. The problem is, every time you use Stern's 'special' re-roll for his use only, your opponent gets a re-roll for anything they want. Certainly not worth using. Still, if you want a Brother-Captain with a Sword and Storm Bolter, you can always pay 5 Points for an extra mastery level.

Brotherhood Champion: He doesn't have Teleport Strike, and he's locked into a Force Sword. Sad face. In Melee, in can do one of two things; +1 To Wound (with Hammerhand makes +2!), or have +1 to his Saving Throws. Which brings his Armour Save to 1+, and his Invulnerable to 3+. A fairly strong model and always gets to attack, even if he dies, which means Interruptions don't hurt as much. It still hurts. But not as badly.

Castellan Crowe: Pay 10 Points to be garbage.

Spoiler: Troops

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Strike Squad: Power Armour doesn't mean you can't Teleport Strike. Hooray! Put yourself into Storm Bolter/Smite range on Turn 1, and Charge on Turn 2. Psycannons are great, but the -1 To Hit does hurt. Maybe put Incinerators on your Strike Squads to keep them cheap...So you can have more of them. They are 21 Points each to begin with, and you'll probably end up throwing in a Hammer or two. Unfortunately, as strong as those Force Swords are, only have 1 Attack at a time is...Real bad. Luckily Falchions give you an extra attack, and the User Strength can be offset by Hammerhand, or just like...Be rad.

Terminator Squad: 46 Points per model is Emperor-damned awful for a Troops unit. 2+ Armour doesn't mean what you think it means, because AP is always useful. The saving grace on Terminators should be that they have 2 Wounds each. But two Strike Knights (2 Wounds) only costs 42 Points, and does double the firepower as Terminators, and more models on the board is more important than more Wounds - it's just not the same thing. Strike Knights can still SUA (9") thanks to Teleport Strike, so that doesn't matter. The only thing that Terminators really have going for them is the 5+ Invulnerable save. So...If you want to give every single Terminator you own a Force Stave, that'd be cool...

Spoiler: Elites

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Dreadnought: Similar to Deathwatch, your Troops are really expensive, and don't carry Heavy weapons that they can actually use. Ergo, your Dreadoughts are going to be your Heavy weapon platforms and their job is to drop that Power Fist immediately...And then basically take any weapon you want that isn't the Heavy Flamer. As a <Grey Knights> unit, a Dreadnought actually is a viable target for Gate of Infinity, which allows another unit to slingshot a Dreadnought across the battlefield in Melta range on the Multi-Melta. Dreadnoughts also happen to know Smite as well, and that's a good trick.

Servitors: I heard you like Plasma Cannons...And you desperately need them because you're Grey Knights and bringing nothing but Storm Bolters. A Techmarine isn't even bad, especially if you're bringing a load of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks for gun platforms.

Venerable Dreadnought: 20 Points more than the Dreadnought, except has 2+/2+ on its combat stats and sits next to a Grand Master to re-roll 1s, because obviously. Can also ignore Wounds on a '6'. There really isn't a need to take Dreadnoughts when Venerables aren't even that more expensive and better. However, once your start taking your fourth Venerable Dreadnought, you might consider dropping them all down to regular Dreads to keep the cost down...But only when you get up to your fourth. Because your fourth Venerable Dreadnought could be a fifth regular Dreadnought. Think about it.

Brotherhood Ancient: Teleport down behind your Strike Knights and force multiply their Falchions through the roof. Units near the Ancient get +1Ld and +1 Attack. As with all Melee-based Force Multipliers, it really sucks when the unit in front of him makes their Charge (because they're closer), but he doesn't. Remember that your Ancient gets to throw out Psychic Powers too. But a Perils will make him really sad, as he loses more than half his Wounds in one go. Remember that Hammerhand doesn't have to be cast on the casting unit. So if the Strike Knights want to cast something else (Smite/Purge Soul), the Ancient can manifest Hammerhand on the unit in front 'cause they're going to make the Charge. He carries one Falchion...Still AP -2, and does D3 Damage, and then Banner gives himself +1 Attack anyway.

Purifier Squad: 5 Points over your Strike Knights to lose Teleport Strike, but 'gain' a 3" Smite (pffft) that actually does D6 Mortal Wounds. Is the D6 MWs enough to make up for the tiny range? For 5 more Points per model, and no Teleport? So you're relying on a either a Rhino - which costs more points - or a Librarian to slingshot the unit across the board with Gate of Infinity. Except none of that matters, 'cause Purifiers' stat-line aren't even better than Strike Knights'. So...Why?

Paladin Squad: All's a Paladin needs to do is be less than 63 Points per model...*Phew*...They're only 55 Points. So...At least they're cost-efficient. Not a lot to say. Once you take five of 'em, you can take two Heavy weapons. Except there are cheaper ways to do that, because -1 To Hit hurts everyone equally. So...Yeah. How badly do you need that 5+ Invulnerable save? See, the thing is, regular Space Marines carry Boltguns, they just don't have the option for Storm Bolters, or Assault Cannons. Space Marine Terminators can bring Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons, so their offensive output is actually different for the increased points cost. Strike Knights carry Storm Bolters. They have the same Storm Bolters. What's the point of Paladins? Extra Wounds? But you do that with Strike Knights by taking extra models, which is more important. Who cares? Just take the 3. The Paragon hits on 2+, so you can give him a Hammer if you want.
The only reason you have Paladins is because you had to buy the box to get to the delicious Ancient inside, which means you're down from 5 anyway.

Paladin Ancient: Pay 12 Points over the Brotherhood Ancient for WS2+, and an extra attack. Except you're only equipped with a Falchion, so who cares? But you do get the option for a Heavy weapon, so you can actually do something whilst you're hiding behind Strike Knights. Unfortunately, the BS didn't change, and you're paying the 12 Points whether you take the Special Weapon or not. Ugh. Just...Why?

Apothecary: Fun to have around. Hide them behind your HQs. 2+/5++ means that they probably wont even die and they could just heal themselves.

Spoiler: Fast Attack / Fliers

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Stormraven: One of the very best models in the game. Bring a mess-ton of firepower (especially with the Hurricane Bolters), your opponent is at -1 To Hit. It moves the entire board in one turn, and can Transport both Infantry models and a Dreadnought. As a Transport it's bananas. As a gun platform it's also bananas since it's got Power of the Machine Spirit and doesn't take the -1 To Hit when it moves - because it has to move. All for less than 300 Points. What a joke. You should always have at least one on the board. Two if possible. If you have three (or more!) on the board and you still have friends to play with, you're doing better than most.

Interceptor Squad: At 2 Points over a Strike Knight, gain a 12" Move, and once per game, get a free !Gate of Infinity. If you're not interested in the CPs out of a Battalion Detachment, then Outrider Detachments are the way to go, and just drop Interceptors all over the board. At 23 points per model, your army slightly more strapped for models. But it is worth it... If you don't care about CPs.
Interceptors are not <Jump Pack> models, and you can fit as many as you can in a Stormraven.

Spoiler: Heavy Support

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Land Raider: 356 Points is way too much. Twin Lascannons are overpriced. You could have 3 Razorbacks, with Twin Lascannons each, plus Storm Bolters, for less points. What even? Don't bother.

Land Raider Crusader: Like a regular Land Raider. But instead of 50 Point sponson weapons, has 4 Point sponson weapons and carries more models. No contest. Unfortunately, Land Raider Crusaders aren't Stormravens.

Land Raider Redeemer: Didn't you read? Hurricane Bolters are 4 Points, and Crusaders carry more models...And you're still not a Stormraven.

Purgation Squad: Lose Teleport Strike. Gain four Special weapons per five models. That's it. Since Strike Knights and Interceptors will be moving all around the board with Teleport shenanigans, that -1 To Hit on all your weapons will get old, fast. What you can do, is drop all your Special weapons into one squad, make them a Heavy Support choice, and there's your Purgation Squad. The Justiciar will end up being the only model with Melee weapons, so make 'em count (i.e; Falchions).

Nemesis Dreadknight: Similar to a Dreadnought, the Dreadfists are already costing your 35 Points - as such, take 10 Points off the other Melee weapons a Dreadknight can take. Pay the 10 Points to give yourself SUA (9"). So just off the bat, your Dreadknight is going to be 155 Points base, and will be ~170 no matter what Melee weapon you give them. Remember that you'll be taking -1 To Hit every time you move - which will be as much as possible - so a Gatling Psilencer gives you an arseload of shots, and two of them is...Ludicrous firepower. But it is S4, AP0, so it's...Nothing. But it is cheap...The other option is a Heavy Incinerator, which has a range of 12", which means that it is actually perfectly usable on Turn 1, because SUA (9") actually puts you in range of a 'flame' weapon for once. As far as the Heavy Psycannons go...Leave that kind of thing to your Twin Autocannon Dreadnoughts that wont move around so much.

Spoiler: Transports

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Rhino: Does what a Rhino does. Transports 10 dudes around the battlefield. Which you don't even need, because you have Teleport Strike and Gate of Infinity to do whatever you want, and the guys that don't Teleport - Purifiers - you aren't even taking, so there's no problem! If you have to, throw on another Storm Bolter for +2 Points (oh noes!), and drive around mowing down hordes...But why even bother? Doesn't every model you own pack a Storm Bolter? What are two more going to do on a 70 Point platform?

Razorback: You can take one 'for each other unit'. That means Characters and even other Vehicles. Even if your Grand Master is teleporting around with 9 other guys, you can still bring a Razorback. Even if you brought a Dreadnought, you can still bring a Razorback. You guessed it. Razorback! However, because Razorbacks don't have to pay for two weapons, they are actually a cheaper fire platforms for Twin Lascannons - or Lascannon and Twin Plasmagun - than your Dreadnoughts...Which you also took, with Assault Cannon and Missile Launcher, and then Razorback with Twin Lascannons, and now you have all the Heavy weapons that you could possibly need.

The rules for how Dedicated Transports are taken is broken.

Spoiler: Allies

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What Grey Knights don't have;

• Cheap Heavy weapons.
• Cheap/Spammable models with which to hold Objectives against hordes.
• SUA (9") during Deployment - as opposed to at the end of any Movement phase.
• Snipers
• Roboute Guilliman. Who you get when you buy Grand Master Voldus.

What Grey Knights can do;

• Paladins would be real great to drop into an army that doesn't have a 'brick' and already has enough models to hold Objectives.

[Brookshw]

I preferred Drasius' from a while back; '40K is dead. Long live 40K.'

"Flamers are the new hotness" was another good one. We'll see in a few pages!

[Cheesegear]

"Flamers are the new hotness" was another good one...

...They're not though.

[Gauntlet]

@Cheesegear:

Might be worth mentioning that a Grey Knight librarian is actually cheaper in points than a Marine one with the same wargear, since a Nemesis force weapon is free while a Marine's force weapon costs points.

[Cheesegear]

Might be worth mentioning that a Grey Knight librarian is actually cheaper in points than a Marine one with the same wargear, since a Nemesis force weapon is free while a Marine's force weapon costs points.

That's actually a really good point. Don't know why I didn't mention it.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

2) By a strict interpretation of RAW, it looks as though giving your army it's own name prevents it getting the full benefit of the named characters. I presume that isn't actually intended, and I can declare that e.g. "everything counts as Catachans, except for these which are Tempestus"?

Yes, I think.

Source: Death Guard booklet in Dark Imperium. They present a whole bunch of "Vectoriums" for the Death Guard, each of which have different names and color schemes. I presume they function mechanically as <DEATH GUARD> since well it's the Death Guard booklet, but allow for different names and color schemes. As long as everyone knows you're running a recolored/renamed Catachan force it should be fine.

IMHO you shouldn't be running around with an army called "Catachan" anyway. It should be "Xth Catachan Face Eaters" or "Y's Machete Killers" or somesuch. Just put <CATACHAN> in the <REGIMENT> box and you're good to go.

[Drasius]

2) By a strict interpretation of RAW, it looks as though giving your army it's own name prevents it getting the full benefit of the named characters. I presume that isn't actually intended, and I can declare that e.g. "everything counts as Catachans, except for these which are Tempestus"?

It's intended. You can definately take an army with guard and tempestus though, since the only thing you need for your army is for them to share a keyword, so anything with <imperium> is fine, though as noted, character abilities are limited to certain things. IIRC, stormtroopers can still be part of a guard army though?

[Brookshw]

...They're not though.

I can tell you that a bunch of skorcha's ruined my nids day, maybe army dependent.

[Turalisj]

Burst Cannons are out. Because that's what Gun Drones and Fire Warriors are for. Crisis Suits can't hold Objectives. 'All 'Suits, all the time', is a dead build. Welcome to 8th.
Strength 5 AP0 isn't anything, and S6 with AP, is available for 1 Point extra. No contest.

Cyclic Ion Blasters are fine if the unit is babysitting or being babysat by a Commander/Ethereal or you're bringing a bunch of Markerlights.

Flamers are out. Fusion Blasters are definitely out (they're now on Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels or Riptides). Missile Pods are done.

Basically all Plasma Rifles, all the time. Sprinkle in a few CIBs if you're brave.

*proceeds to start hacking off all the missile pods and fusion blasters from his suits*

[Yaktan]

On crisis suits: They are horribly overcosted for what they do now. (consider that if they were 3+ BS commanders would still out-damage and out-tank them, and commanders are not out of line compared to what other armies can bring--compare a commander to a venerable dreadnought the dread is about the same price for the same firepower, but has +2 wounds and +2 toughness and damage reduction, vs the commander being a character and being able to deep strike)

The only way to take crisis suits without gimping yourself is to run them with flamers. Since stealth suits provide nice board control and a good platform for a Drone controller, you can pop a homing beacon on them and drop in a unit of flamer suits and drones.

I also laugh at Cheese saying the twin lascannon is overpriced. Say hello to the heavy rail rifle.

Let us compare a broadside with heavy-rail rife and plasma rifles, with two shield drones, to 3 armored sentinals, with two lascannons and a plasma cannon (since twin lascannons just cost twice a lascannon)

I order to kill the sentinals, you need to hit with 7 lascannons. To kill the broadside you need to hit with 5 lascannons. The heavy rail rifle does the same damage as the lascannons to knights, and 25% more to predators. But the plasma cannon has 36 inch range, and +1 strength over the plasma rifles, even without overcharge, so against a backline tank, like a quad-las predator, it makes up the difference. (and the broadside rifles do nothing, since they will be out of range)

And, to top it off, the sentinels are 175 points, while the broadside is 181. So I pay more points for the same damage and 2/3 the durability....

[bluntpencil]

The rest of the Chapter Tactics have been leaked...

Black Templars: Re-roll failed charges.
Salamanders: Re-roll one failed attack and one failed Wound roll each time the unit fights or shoots. MSU ahoy?
Iron Hands: Ignore each Wound suffered on a 6.
Imperial Fists: Ignore Cover, re-roll wounds vs. buildings. What happened to defending?

I'm thinking Salamanders are boring, but somewhat strong, reducing the need for Lieutenants and Captains a bit. Black Templars look solid, and will be pretty good with Assault Terminators and Drop Pod Crusader Squads. Iron Hands are a bit meh. Ultramarines, White Scars and Raven Guard are all pretty solid - White Scar Dreadnoughts and Assault Terminators are going to be hilarious, kiting out of combat with hordes to punch weaker targets. Imperial Fists are trash tier.

[boomwolf]

Salamandar ability is good for guns with low shot count and high damage output.

Like melta.


Fitting, isn't it?


(though lascannons also gain just as much)

[bluntpencil]

Salamandar ability is good for guns with low shot count and high damage output.

Like melta.


Fitting, isn't it?


(though lascannons also gain just as much)

But pretty crap for Flamers.

Still, it's decent enough.

Imperial Fists are going to be sad, I think. I think they should at least get +1 Ld like Ultramarines do, or a bonus to their own cover saves.

[Brookshw]

White scars are looking pretty brutal. Fall back and charge? Yes please!

[bluntpencil]

White scars are looking pretty brutal. Fall back and charge? Yes please!

Good for Bike mounted characters and command squads. Good for Jump Packs. Not so good for regular Bikes. It's good for Deathwatch Bikers, but they can spam power weapons, and have a Veteran profile.

Funnily enough, awesome for Ironclad Dreadnoughts...

[Cheesegear]

*proceeds to start hacking off all the missile pods and fusion blasters from his suits*

Fusion Blasters you can keep if you're also running MSU Stealth Suits.
But yeah, Missile Pods are out. 24 Points to a Plasma Rifle's 11 is a joke.

I can tell you that a bunch of skorcha's ruined my nids day, maybe army dependent.

Skorchas are Heavy Flamers, not regular Flamers.

I also laugh at Cheese saying the twin lascannon is overpriced. Say hello to the heavy rail rifle.

Oh, believe me. I'm aware how bad T'au are. I'll get to them one day, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Good for Jump Packs.

White Scars have the best Jump Infantry, able to shoot and charge on a turn they Fall Back.

The reason Chapter Tactics are so incredibly boring is because the real power is going to come from Stratagems. *fingers crossed they were serious*

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler: WS3+, 1 Attack

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See, the thing about the new Wound table and AP affecting everyone equally, means [stuff] like this is now the norm, except you're supposed to take points cost into consideration - not Grey Knights!
You could throw out buffs like rr1, or +1 To Wound (Hammerhand), or just be Terminators/Paladins/Banners with extra attacks. But those are universal to all GK units, so it will affect everything equally and ratios would all stay the same.
All GK weapons are free and do D3 damage - except Hammers - so the only thing that matters is the hard maths. The extra attack on the Falchions is super helpful.
Staves are pretty bad. That's why they only belong on your Force Multipliers so they don't die in Melee.

Hammers are 13 Points to deal 3 damage, instead of D3. The -1 To Hit really hurts. So only use it to kill Characters and Vehicles (i.e; Models with 3 or more Wounds).

I think I might remove T5/2+, it's not common enough. Should probably switch it to T5/3+, or T4/2+.