Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[lord_khaine]

I especially like that the main body looks like the front of a (blocky) gunship, which definitely fits the imperial vibe. Also, the torso mounted guns make a lot of sense, and the legs make it look like it could actually walk (as opposed to the waddling I always imagined regular Dreadnoughts doing).

Funny story, they had to slightly adjust the Dreadnoughts in Dawn of war to make them able to walk :P

[Drasius]

Well, it is supposed to be only a rough outline.

The inceptors cost 53 each, so a team is 159.
Divide by 8, you got 19.875 points per power level.


Other known factor, the hellblasters, 40 each power level 12. so we hit 16.666 point per power level.
It seems like 1 power level=roughly 16-20 points? seems about right?

The captain though, power level 7 and costs 148, so that's 21.143 points per power level.
So...power level and points so not translate all that easily. we got 4.46 points-per-power-level difference between our highest and our lowest example-and these might not be the biggest edge cases, as we've seen a really small number so far.
Its a VERY rough outline, one that should never be used to compare units if you know your stuff. 4.46 difference between current edge cases, rounding down to 4 means the rubric squad might cost 127 points fully equipped-and still be within power level logic.


And even if for some reason we are looking on pure power level, are rubrics as good as inceptors? not quite.
HOWEVER, a few missing factors:
Faction spells can really change the value of the sorcerer.
The icon of flame does something unknown, and power level assumes you took it. it might be something valuable.
The flamers are scary powerful when used properly, and the power level assumes you got those too.



TL;DR-Power level is a very rough estimate, not fully consistant, and we don't actually know everything the rubrics have yet.

Word is (from my blackshirt) that the Aspiring sorceror doesn't get factions spells, though he does admit that there could be something he didn't spot if certain conditions are met that gives it to them, though from what he saw, there IS a way to power up their smite back to full power (not saying much), either through a special character (read: Ahriman) or, and this is my supposition too, via having all models in your army have the Thousand Sons chapter legion keyword.

Speaking of Chapter Keyword - Another tidbit is that apparently bonii from an Ultramarine Commander (ie the rr1's aura) doesn't affect models with the (for example) Imperial Fists Keyword, though apparently you CAN choose to make every unit in your army have a different chapter/legion/klan/hive fleet/craftworld/regiment/[whatever] should you so choose. Hopefully this is true as I always felt that while you could reasonably expect an Imperial Fist and a Raven Guard to work together if required, they certainly wouldn't be well enough versed in each others tactical subtleties to make use of their specific rites and chapter specific way of warfare, much like how it didn't make sense to have Azrael always kicking around with his 50 guard besties instead of terminators/honour guard from the DA elite.

The issue with having a power level of 16-20 points per power level is that there's a huge, HUGE difference between them. 20 points per power level is a full 25% MORE than 16 point per. Now, granted, that only means anything worth a damn if the points are balanced in the first place, but how would you feel if your opponent got 25% more points than you for a game? Spoiler - It already happened in 7.5 with war convo and gladius and neither were even remotely fair even though most of their "free points" were trashy overpriced junk that you'd never take in a million years normally. In an edition that's meant to actually be remotely balanced, I'm fairly sure that if one side gets ~25% more points than the other, the outcome is such a foregone conclusion that the "game" isn't worth playing because it's incredibly obvious who it going to faceroll with no real recourse beyond weighted dice or acts of god/s, sometimes not even then.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still hyped for 8th (even though I am almost certain I'm going to be disapointed, true to the saying we all know and love), but open play/narrative/power levels are a complete and utter waste of time for the vast majority of the 40k community, and for the folks who DO play those style of games, I'd wager that most of them already have enough of an idea on how to balance (or imbalance depending on scenario) a narrative game that they don't need the GW "balance" system anyway. The handful of people I know who actually play narrative in AoS use the points system to balance their forces and simply throw out whatever they call their force org chart and since they're all on the same wavelength about running narrative events, it works for them.

[lord_khaine]

Speaking of Chapter Keyword - Another tidbit is that apparently bonii from an Ultramarine Commander (ie the rr1's aura) doesn't affect models with the (for example) Imperial Fists Keyword, though apparently you CAN choose to make every unit in your army have a different chapter/legion/klan/hive fleet/craftworld/regiment/[whatever] should you so choose. Hopefully this is true as I always felt that while you could reasonably expect an Imperial Fist and a Raven Guard to work together if required, they certainly wouldn't be well enough versed in each others tactical subtleties to make use of their specific rites and chapter specific way of warfare, much like how it didn't make sense to have Azrael always kicking around with his 50 guard besties instead of terminators/honour guard from the DA elite.

That is the most reasonable changes in the entire edition. If those Aura bonues can be made selective though keywords then they do have the option to make them much more interesting as well.

[thedavo]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.

[boomwolf]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.

Wonna bet people will still cry tau are OP, despite even orks beating them? (seriously though, that one requires an explanation XD)

[Requizen]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.

Was that 7th or 8th?

[Grim Portent]

Spoiler

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That Redemptor Dread is huge.

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

[Blackhawk748]

Spoiler

Show

That Redemptor Dread is huge.

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

Holy crap that thing is massive. Like, i think its almost as tall as a Dreadknight

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'm digging that size. It would make for a nice, intimidating centerpiece for my marines along with my now hopefully relevant land raiders. It also would cool to use it to designate an extra special dreadnought.

"This isn't one of those new-fangled Primaris dreadnoughts, no sir. This is our <insert number> Chapter Master, to whom we gave an extra awesome Dreadnought shell."

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, got that game in. His list wasn't quite as advertised after some revision; he was running a multi-Dreadnought list that gave me points for blowing up Dreadnoughts, a Land Raider containing a Master of the Forge Terminator equivalent and a Legion Praetorian in Terminator armor, some outflanking Tactical Marines of some kind, a bunch of footslogging Terminators, and a footslogging tactical squad.

The mission was a zone control based one, where your deployment zone was worth 5 points, no man's land worth 6, and the enemy deployment zone worth 7 if you had scoring units in it and the other guy did not. So he basically had to come to me.

It went how you might expect. I spent three turns bombarding the hell out of the advancing Marines, and he kind of fizzled when he reached my line. Even with my forgetting to roll for Reserves on turn 3 with four units still in reserve, he never really had a chance. I felt kind of bad about it. The only point he got was Slay the Warlord on a last-turn Dreadnought/Praetorian charge on my tank commander, and I wound up with three from Last Man Standing and killing two of the five Dreadnoughts. (That Invulnerable save on Contemptors is a pain.)

[Drasius]

Spoiler

Show

That Redemptor Dread is huge.

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

Wow, I didn't think it was possible to like the new dread even less, but not only is it apparently comically oversized, it also looks even worse with the different weapons. Good job GW!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Wow. When you put it next to another dread it really does look huge. Nothing mini about that miniature lol.

That probably means a proportional price tag too huh

[Wraith]

Funny story, they had to slightly adjust the Dreadnoughts in Dawn of war to make them able to walk :P

Oh yeah, I remember that. They 3D scanned one of the older metal Dreadnoughts and compiled it in the game, but the physics engine took one look at it and pretty much imploded. I'm pretty sure it led to a redesign of actual miniatures in the future because of it; GW aren't much for "reality" in their games, but for some reason they decided that Dreadnoughts ought to be mechanically viable.

As for the new Primaris Dreadnought - I like the heroic size of the thing, but I think it looks very plain. I know the Primaris Marines in general are all about smooth lines and flat plates, but I think I preferred to have some of the baroque detail and filigree of the older ones; especially the Ancient Dreadnoughts with all their finery to mark them out as special.

[Blackhawk748]

Personally im a fan of the Pimp-Noght

[Theodoric]

As for the new Primaris Dreadnought - I like the heroic size of the thing, but I think it looks very plain. I know the Primaris Marines in general are all about smooth lines and flat plates, but I think I preferred to have some of the baroque detail and filigree of the older ones; especially the Ancient Dreadnoughts with all their finery to mark them out as special.

Kind-of the downside of Primaris, they haven't been around for long enough to accumulate enough bling to get Venerable status. Though I don't quite see how Primarines Marines stand out as far as having smooth lines and flat plates; most vanilla marine models have that too.

[Drasius]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.

[thedavo]

Wonna bet people will still cry tau are OP, despite even orks beating them? (seriously though, that one requires an explanation XD)

The Ork player is one of the guys from my club. We have a saying: "Never play (Ork Player) at a game of dice". He's good at games in general, and generally rolls well. He ran the Ork Mek list from IA. His only loss was when he conceded in turn 1 against a massively cheesy Eldar list he couldn't be bothered to play. Otherwise he might have won the whole thing.

The "Chaos Marines" list was Magnus and 3 Daemon Princes.

There was also a Tau guy who turned up with TWO supremacy suits.

Requizen - was a 7th Ed tournament.

[Brookshw]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.

That's a nasty Explodes rule on that land raider!

[Renegade Paladin]

That's a nasty Explodes rule on that land raider!

Yeah. It remains to be seen if that's the standard or if it gets a nastier one because of daemonic possession.

[Blackhawk748]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.

Huh, Land Raiders have 16 wounds. Glad to see the Orkanaught are tougher in that respect.

[Drasius]

Huh, Land Raiders have 16 wounds. Glad to see the Orkanaught are tougher in that respect.

Land Raiders have a 2+ though vs a 3+ on the orkanaughts, so it's relative to what weapon you're using as to who is tougher.

[Blackhawk748]

Land Raiders have a 2+ though vs a 3+ on the orkanaughts, so it's relative to what weapon you're using as to who is tougher.

Of course, this does seem to confirm my suspicion that Ork vehicles will be more durable wound wise than their other counterparts.

[Drasius]

SoB leaks:

Acts of Faith
Hand of the Emperor: The unit can immediately move as if it were the Movement phase.
Divine Guidance: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the Shooting phase.
The Passion: The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, immediately pile in and attack as if it were the Fight phase.
Spirit of the Martyr: One model in the unit recovers D3 lost wounds, or you can return a single slain model to the unit with 1 wound remaining.

Points costs:
Arco 15
Battle Sisters 9
Canoness 45
Celestian 11
Crusaders 11
Death Cult 17
Dialogus 15
Dominion 10
Exorcist 160
Hospitaller 30
Imagifier 40
Immolator 68
Priest 35
Mistress of Repentance 35
Penitent Engine 55
Repentia 17
Retributor 9
Seraphim 11
Sororitas Rhino 73

Celestine 150
-Geminae Superia 50each
Uriah Jacobus 100

Melee weapons, if weapon isn't mentioned it's points cost is 0
Eviscerator 22
Neural Whips 3
Penitent buzz-blades 40
Power axe 5
Power Maul 4
Power Sword 4

Ranged Weapons, if weapon isn't mentioned it's points cost is 0
Combi - flamer 11 melta 19 plasma 15
Condemnor boltgun 1 - Same as a regular bolter but D3 damage vs psykers
Flamer 9
Hand Flamer 6
Heavy Bolter 10
Heavy Fmaler 17
Hunter killer missile 6
Immolation Flamer 35
Inferno pistol 12
Meltagun 17
Plasma gun 13 pistol 7
Storm Bolter 4
Twin Heavy bolter 17
Twin multi-melta 54

Shield of Faith: 6+ Inv save and can deny one psychic power in each
enemy psychic phase in the same manner as a psyker but on D6 instead of 2D6.

Zealot: re-roll failed to hit rolls in a turn which the unit charged,
made a heroic intervention or was charged by an enemy unit.

Uriah Jacobus
4++
Banner of Sanctity: +1Ld to ministorum and AM units within 6"

All Priests
4++
M6"
War Hymns: You can add 1 to the Attack characteristics of all friendly Ministorum and astra militarum infantry within 6" of any friendly ministorum priest.

Crusaders
M6" WS3 S3 A2
Zealot
Acts of Faith

Death Cult Assassins
M7" WS3 S4 A4
5+ 5++
Zealot
Death Cult Power blades are AP -2

Arco-Flagellants
M7" WS3 S4 A2
7+ 5++
Zealot
Arco flails: +1S and D3 attacks instead of 1

Penitent Engine
M7" WS3 S5 T6 W7 A4 Ld8 4+
Zealot
Desperate for Redemption: Roll a D6 after completing the first set of
attacks for units of Penitent Engines in each Fight phase. On a roll of
4+, the unit can immediately pile in and attack for a second time.
Penitent Buzz-Blades S2x Ap-3 Damage 3

Celestine
12" 2+2+3+3+7 6 9 2+ 4++
Beacon of Faith: +1 Shield of Faith Inv 6" bubble, Astra militarum and ministorum gain 6+ inv save.
The Armour of Saint Katherine: 4++ for her and Geminae
Saintly Blessings: Unit within 6" can perform an Act of Faith.
Healing Tears: Resurrect 1 geminae at start of each movement phase
Miraculous Intervention: Resurrection of Celestine once per game with full wounds.

Canoness
6" 2+ 2+ 3 3 5 4 9 3+4++
Now has Rosarius as standard
Lead the Righteous mentioned above
Can't take jump pack

Imagifier
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
AoF, SoF (Shield of Faith)
Simulacrum Imperialis: D6 start of turn on 4+ unit within 6" can perform Act of Faith

Hospitaller
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 4 2 8 3+
Chirurgeons tools S user -1AP
Aof, SoF
Healer: End of movement. Adepta Sororitas Infantry unit within 3", roll D6. On 4+ one model recovers D3 lost wounds (IG medipack recovers 1 wound), if no wounded 1 slain model can be returned to the unit with 1 wound. A unit can only be targeted once per turn.

Dialogus
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 4 2 8 6+
Dialogus staff +1S -1To Hit
6" Adepta Sororitas re-roll morale bubble

Battle Sisters
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per unit

Seraphim
12" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before

Celestian
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 3+
2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per UNIT
Bodyguard: Character within 3" transfers a wound to unit on 2+, this wound becomes a Mortal Wound

Mistress of Repentance
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
Neural Whips S User, -2AP Damage1 Add 1 to the wound rolls for attacks made with this weapon if the target unit's highest LD is less than 8 excluding vehicles.
Driven Onwards: re-roll advance, charge and hit rolls for friendly Repentia within 6" of this model.

Repentia Squad
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 7+
Penitent Eviscerator SX2 -2AP Damage 2 -1 To Hit
Aof, SoF

Retributor Squad
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before, max 4 heavy weapons per unit
Aof, SoF

Dominion: 5 + 4 for 5 more models
Same as above but 4 special weapons
AoF, SoF
Vanguard: After deployment, before first turn, move as in movement phase. If all models inside transport has this rule then transport may move instead.

Rhino and Immolator
T7 W10

Exorcist
T8 W12

[LeSwordfish]

I like that new Machine Spirit rule - makes Land Raiders pretty effective as transports now, since they can fire all their weapons on the move.

[Renegade Paladin]

Leman Russes have a 3+ save if I'm not mistaken, which leads me to guess 2+ vehicles will be rare if 14/14/14 is what it takes to translate into that.

Edit: Space Marine faction focus. The big news is that grav has been toned down; S5, AP -3, 1 damage. Damage increases to d3 if the target has 3+ or better save. (This raises a question; since cover increases Sv, does being in cover increase the damage you take from grav?) Predators are T7, 11W, though they didn't show the profile so we don't know how damage degrades them.

[Blackhawk748]

So how do we activate the AoF? Cuz thats rather important, also im not impressed by the Repetnia, cuz there is no reason why an Eviscerator should be AP -2 instead of AP -3, cuz they've always basically been Power Fists.

Wow, Multi Meltas got expensive, no more free swaps for us. Also, Power weapons are freakin cheap.

Oh my god, can non-priests finally take Plasma weapons?

Hospitallier is amazing btw

[Renegade Paladin]

So how do we activate the AoF? Cuz thats rather important, also im not impressed by the Repetnia, cuz there is no reason why an Eviscerator should be AP -2 instead of AP -3, cuz they've always basically been Power Fists.

Wow, Multi Meltas got expensive, no more free swaps for us. Also, Power weapons are freakin cheap.

Oh my god, can non-priests finally take Plasma weapons?

Hospitallier is amazing btw

Where have you seen Sisters leaks? Also, they said a few weeks ago that multimeltas are the most expensive upgrade a Marine tactical squad can take, at 27 points, so them being expensive across the board is no surprise.

[Blackhawk748]

Where have you seen Sisters leaks? Also, they said a few weeks ago that multimeltas are the most expensive upgrade a Marine tactical squad can take, at 27 points, so them being expensive across the board is no surprise.

Drasius posted them literally 3 posts above you, not sure where he got them from. And im not surprised that it happened (i kinda am but meh) im just used to Immolaters having a free weapon swap.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh. I somehow missed that. When I come to the thread I use the "Go to First New Post" button, and it never popped to that one; it seems to have gotten marked as read somehow. Sorry.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Grav still looks pretty nasty, and it will still eff up vehicles when fired en mass (though not nearly as much as before). It seems like 3+ is fairly standard among the reasonably tough vehicles, so grav will be getting 4 S5 shots that reduce said save to a 6+, and each of those attacks will be doing d3 damage.

Assuming T8 and 3+ save for all targets

Spoiler: Calculations

Show

The grav cannon gets 4 shots at 3+ BS = 2.668 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .891 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .743 wounds actually go through. Each wound deals d3 damage, so that ends up being an average of 1.485 wounds per shooting phase (for one weapon).

If you get lucky on the to wound rolls (which could massively increase the potential wounds), grav devastators could outright erase vehicles in one salvo. Each single wound that goes through is actually going to do 2 damage on average (provided target has a 3+, and targets like that abound in most armies with the new vehicles rules), so with 4 devs armed with grav cannons this could be extremely dangerous to special characters or vehicles.

Compare to a heavy bolter (which is quite a bit lower on the food chain, but still).
3 shots at 3+ BS = 2 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .668 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 4+, so .334 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .334.

Heavy Flamer (I inferred the stats for this one based on the normal flamer they showed us)
3.5 average hits, which wound on a 5+, so 1.169 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 4+, so .585 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .585.

Plasma gun (on normal mode)
2 shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .446 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .372 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Of course, you'll probably want turbo mode for vehicles. Average damage per shooting phase: .372.

Plasma gun (on turbo mode)
2 shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .667 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .556 wounds actually go through, dealing 2 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.111.

Lascannon
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hit wounds on a 3+, so .445 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .371 wounds actually go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each, leading to an average damage per shooting phase of 1.30.

Plasma Cannon
Average of 2 (D3) shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .446 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .371 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .371.

Turbocharged Plasma Cannon
Average of 2 (D3) shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .667 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .556 wounds actually go through, dealing 2 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.111.

Meltagun
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hits wounds on a 4+, so .334 wounds. These wounds are saved on nothing (suck it, vehicles), so .334 wounds go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each or 7 average damage each if within half range. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.17 if farther than 6" away, 2.334 if 6" or closer.

Multimelta
Same as meltagun; only difference is range is doubled (Surprise, surprise).

Missile Launcher (assuming krak)
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .334 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 5+, so .223 wounds go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .780.

Of course, grav weapons could still be extremely expensive weapons, which would potentially compensate for their impressive destructive potential. Atm, though, it seems like they are still better at anti-MEQ and better at vehicle popping than anything else. The Lascannons seeming two saving graces are the 48" range and the potential for really devastating single shots (even more so than the grav cannon).

My (primitive) power rankings for antivehicle (again, assuming T8 and 3+) from the classic Space Marine special/heavy weapons are:
(Note: w/sp = wounds/shooting phase)
Melta/Multimelta in <half range: 2.334 w/sp (17/27 points)
Grav cannon: 1.485 w/sp (28 points)
Lascannon: 1.30 w/sp (25 points)
Melta/Multimelta in >half range: 1.17 w/sp (see above)
Turbo Plasma Gun: 1.111 w/sp (13 points)
Turbo Plasma Cannon: 1.111 w/sp (21 points)
Missile Launcher: .780 w/sp (25 points)
Heavy Flamer: .585 w/sp (17 points)
Regular Plasma Gun: .372 w/sp (see above)
Regular Plasma Cannon: .371 w/sp (see above)
Heavy Bolter: .334 w/sp (10 points)

This doesn't take into account range, weapon type or how effective these weapons are against T7 or T6 vehicles (thought the only weapons that would really change for those two are the two plasma modes, which would become more effective; regular plasma in particular should be much better against T7 and T6).

As far as points go, the missile launchers seem to be drastically overpriced. Frag missiles aren't all that good (d6 S4 hits. Woo) and krak missiles straight up suck for how much you're paying. The big three (lascannons, grav cannons and both meltas) seem right-ish in points cost, though the Grav cannon should probably cost most considering it is far better at wasting infantry than either of the other two. Plasma cannons suck hard against T8, but it seems they will do just fine against T7 and below, so I think its just a matter of niche rather than that plasma weapons are terrible. Plasma cannons are a little overpriced, though, and they are only marginally better than plasma guns (range and slightly higher number of potential hits), though the calculations do assume rapid fire range for the plasma guns. The nerfing of Gets Hot helps as well, especially against T6 and below. Unsurprisingly, suicide melta squads are still pretty damn effective and are (IMO) the top dog. With decent rolling, you will do far more than 2.334 damage per melta, and the only thing really keeping it in check is that meltas only wound T8 vehicles on 4's now, with their previous bonus to penetrate armor now represented in damage. Multimeltas are a bit too pricey for what they bring - just get lascannons and pop them from across the board.

I eagerly await spamming plasma like never before.