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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    I sincerely hope we get more explanation, cause otherwise what the frick just happened?
    Tony apparently turns into a robot if he's ever with more than one person, and is a decently nice guy when you're alone with him.

    The rest was them being alone together for weeks on end, teenage hormones, and the romantic atmosphere of the amazon.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    what the frick just happened?
    We got a long, boring explanation to a question that didn't need an answer.
    Last edited by Fawkes; 2017-10-20 at 02:13 PM.


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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Even when not in company Tony's no great charmer. Though I guess he has good (non-buff) looks?

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I actually really enjoyed this arc. It felt very legitimate, especially with them being in their teens-early 20s.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I actually really enjoyed this arc. It felt very legitimate, especially with them being in their teens-early 20s.
    It felt a bit long and slow, but then this is GC. That happens regularly, and on re-reading the slow chapters rarely feel that way.

    I'm with you though - it shows quite well what Surma saw in him. Tony is massively anti-social, making him uncomfortable around others and thus acting like a robot. He's still quite stoic around one person, but he does come out of his shell a lot more. He also becomes animated when he's doing something that he loves (in this case, studying insects).

    It shows again that Tony isn't a bad guy at heart. He's just massively screwed up emotionally when it comes to Antimony, which in turn has caused him to act unforgivably towards her. His own actions hurt him so much that ultra-stoic Tony started crying and drank himself unconscious.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    We got a long, boring explanation to a question that didn't need an answer.
    Perhaps. But we DID find out some other things.

    A) Why Eglamore and Surma weren't together seemed like a tragic story of love failed. Now I can say, "Jimmy-Jims, you have NO IDEA how lucky you were."

    B) Tony doesn't answer questions about his parents. Maybe he doesn't have any.

    C) Surma is NOT Antimony. And Annie isn't like her mother. Thank God.

    D) The last time Annie found out bad things about her mother - namely that the shameless hussy had tried to vamp Rey to come over to the Court's side - it set off all sorts of fireworks. God knows what's going to happen now. Anja should stop telling Annie things before it's too late.

    E) Tony is badly messed up. But even so, his behavior towards Annie is unforgivable. And that Kat can relax around him enough to laugh with him should consume her with guilt.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I dunno if anything in this story reflects particularly badly on Surma. It shows that she's somewhat impulsive and hot blooded, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as "seducing Rey to the Court" was.

    Also, I might just be particularly forgiving, or maybe I see too much of myself in Tony, but I do hope he can at least manage to develop a cordial relationship with Annie, if not necessarily a particularly close one. The stuff he's done is really quite bad, but... I dunno. I just don't see it as "unforgivable".
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    Perhaps. But we DID find out some other things.

    A) Why Eglamore and Surma weren't together seemed like a tragic story of love failed. Now I can say, "Jimmy-Jims, you have NO IDEA how lucky you were."

    B) Tony doesn't answer questions about his parents. Maybe he doesn't have any.

    C) Surma is NOT Antimony. And Annie isn't like her mother. Thank God.

    D) The last time Annie found out bad things about her mother - namely that the shameless hussy had tried to vamp Rey to come over to the Court's side - it set off all sorts of fireworks. God knows what's going to happen now. Anja should stop telling Annie things before it's too late.

    E) Tony is badly messed up. But even so, his behavior towards Annie is unforgivable. And that Kat can relax around him enough to laugh with him should consume her with guilt.
    You know, I feel like there's definitely a way to criticize this arc and Surma's character without all the blatant slut-shaming so maybe you wanna stop doing that?
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I'm with you though - it shows quite well what Surma saw in him. Tony is massively anti-social, making him uncomfortable around others and thus acting like a robot. He's still quite stoic around one person, but he does come out of his shell a lot more. He also becomes animated when he's doing something that he loves (in this case, studying insects).
    The only thing illustrated is that Surma was bored and horny and that Tony was there and not actively terrible. There's nothing in this chapter aside from her line about taking care of Eglamore to suggest that this would be anything more than a summer fling.

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    A) Why Eglamore and Surma weren't together seemed like a tragic story of love failed. Now I can say, "Jimmy-Jims, you have NO IDEA how lucky you were."
    Did it? I don't recall ever feeling that Surma and Eglamore were ever tragic. They dated in high school. High school relationships fail all the time.

    B) Tony doesn't answer questions about his parents. Maybe he doesn't have any.
    Oh God, please don't let there be another chapter about Tony's family. I don't think I could take it.

    It shows again that Tony isn't a bad guy at heart. He's just massively screwed up emotionally when it comes to Antimony, which in turn has caused him to act unforgivably towards her. His own actions hurt him so much that ultra-stoic Tony started crying and drank himself unconscious.
    E) Tony is badly messed up. But even so, his behavior towards Annie is unforgivable. And that Kat can relax around him enough to laugh with him should consume her with guilt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    Also, I might just be particularly forgiving, or maybe I see too much of myself in Tony, but I do hope he can at least manage to develop a cordial relationship with Annie, if not necessarily a particularly close one. The stuff he's done is really quite bad, but... I dunno. I just don't see it as "unforgivable".
    Tony IS a bad guy at heart. He has zero redeeming qualities. The best we have seen of Tony is neutral. The best thing he could do for Annie is to get out of her life and stay out.
    Last edited by Fawkes; 2017-10-21 at 10:09 AM.


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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Tony IS a bad guy at heart. He has zero redeeming qualities. The best we have seen of Tony is neutral. The best thing he could do for Annie is to get out of her life and stay out.
    Strongly disagree, but I doubt we'll ever see eye-to-eye on this.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Ultimately we didn't see anything redeeming, we saw that he can interact normally in one and one situations but being able to do that is essentially neutral and something shared by the vast majority of humanity whether good or bad. But well it is a story of them becoming a couple not of him being redeemed so it accomplish showing that he is at least someone you can get along with.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I guess why I empathize with Tony so much is that I see a lot of myself in him. I react exactly like he does in social situations - shut up, distance myself from the crowd, let others do the talking so that my discomfort isn't revealed. Tony is very human to me after all we've seen of him, and it's very easy to see how he slipped down the depths of despair and misdirected anger at Annie. That he's obviously tearing himself up inside only makes it more painful.

    I used to hate Tony. I don't any more. I pity him.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    Ultimately we didn't see anything redeeming, we saw that he can interact normally in one and one situations but being able to do that is essentially neutral and something shared by the vast majority of humanity whether good or bad. But well it is a story of them becoming a couple not of him being redeemed so it accomplish showing that he is at least someone you can get along with.
    I think what we got was really about Surma. She fell for Tony because the juxtaposition of him being cold and flat around other people and warm around her makes her feel special.

    This makes me wonder if she felt the same way about Antimony? She cut off all ties to other people and basically kept Antimony to herself, might be the same desire to feel uniquely special and loved.

    That would also explain her feels about Tony as adults. If he is obsessing over her dying it fulfills the same need to be singled out.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2017-10-21 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I think what we got was really about Surma. She fell for Tony because the juxtaposition of him being cold and flat around other people and warm around her makes her feel special.
    I thought this chapter made Surma look bad, not because she fell for Tony, but because she was such an unhelpful airhead. Also, no matter how attractive you think a coworker is, you don't just grab them and kiss them if they haven't given any indication that doing so is OK. That's sexual harassment in the USA at least and you can get in serious trouble for doing that.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    They're not co-workers, they're students on a school trip.


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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    I thought this chapter made Surma look bad, not because she fell for Tony, but because she was such an unhelpful airhead. Also, no matter how attractive you think a coworker is, you don't just grab them and kiss them if they haven't given any indication that doing so is OK. That's sexual harassment in the USA at least and you can get in serious trouble for doing that.
    Tony is also afraid of his emotions and likely wouldn't have responded to anything else (if the last girlfriend story about him).
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    They're not co-workers, they're students on a school trip.
    Does that change the morality of the situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Tony is also afraid of his emotions and likely wouldn't have responded to anything else (if the last girlfriend story about him).
    That wouldn't make it OK. If he wasn't attracted to Surma and didn't want to be kissed by her (she didn't know) it might have made him even worse. Also, the problem with Brinnie wasn't that she wasn't aggressive enough. He didn't know what he wanted.
    Last edited by eschmenk; 2017-10-21 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    You know, I feel like there's definitely a way to criticize this arc and Surma's character without all the blatant slut-shaming so maybe you wanna stop doing that?
    Slut (noun) - a lewd, dissolute, or promiscuous woman.

    Your word.

    Let's consider.

    Surma was apparently in a committed (at least on his part) relationship with Eglamore. After a few weeks in close company with Tony, with him giving little indication that he was smitten by her, she changed her focus, tossed Eglamore, and used Tony as a chair.

    (As an aside, I find it interesting that socially inept Tony realized instantly what her blatant come-on meant, also had little qualms about it - beyond understandable worries about Eglamore - and was good with taking up with Surma without apparent reservation.)

    From what we have seen, Surma pretty strongly hinted to Rey she was in love with him; with the implication that if he left the Forest and Coyote and came with her... And she did this, not because she actually felt that way about him, but as part of a Court plan.

    You can call it slut shaming if you wish. I call it character assessment. I'm sure Surma has admirable qualities. Honesty, integrity, and empathy don't seem to be among them. So thank you for your advice, but I think I will continue as I have been.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    Does that change the morality of the situation?



    That wouldn't make it OK. If he wasn't attracted to Surma and didn't want to be kissed by her (she didn't know) it might have made him even worse. Also, the problem with Brinnie wasn't that she wasn't aggressive enough. He didn't know what he wanted.
    Any system of morality that makes all involved more unhappy is IMO a wrong one. Rules about consent are meant to protect people, but they shouldn't be applied as a straitjacket. People's actual happiness is more important than societal rules.
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    I thought this chapter made Surma look bad, not because she fell for Tony, but because she was such an unhelpful airhead. Also, no matter how attractive you think a coworker is, you don't just grab them and kiss them if they haven't given any indication that doing so is OK. That's sexual harassment in the USA at least and you can get in serious trouble for doing that.
    1) She volunteered to do something she has no training for. If she hadn't gone, it would have been cancelled. Her only job was to literally show up so higher ups would allow it. In that capacity, she's doing just fine. Expecting someone to adjust quickly to a demanding trip they had little preparation for is a bit much.

    2) It's shown later on that she's learned to focus better to become helpful, even if she had troubles earlier.

    3) You also don't call your coworkers sexy, which he did.

    4) As stated, they're not coworkers, they're students in the same social circle.

    As for the Egalmore thing, I thought it was established that he had a crush on Antimony? If so, she's done nothing wrong. Could have been handled better, as she could have talked to him, but for all we know, she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    Also, I might just be particularly forgiving, or maybe I see too much of myself in Tony, but I do hope he can at least manage to develop a cordial relationship with Annie, if not necessarily a particularly close one. The stuff he's done is really quite bad, but... I dunno. I just don't see it as "unforgivable".
    Pretty sure abandoning your grieving child is pretty unforgivable. That might even qualify for outright 'neglect'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I think what we got was really about Surma. She fell for Tony because the juxtaposition of him being cold and flat around other people and warm around her makes her feel special.

    This makes me wonder if she felt the same way about Antimony? She cut off all ties to other people and basically kept Antimony to herself, might be the same desire to feel uniquely special and loved.

    That would also explain her feels about Tony as adults. If he is obsessing over her dying it fulfills the same need to be singled out.
    I...Think that's extrapolating a lot. The need to feel special to a romantic partner shouldn't be assumed to be the same as a form of control that borders on child abuse. Antimony speaks of it that it was a mutual decision, and her father was also at the hospital. Considering how outgoing she is with the psychopomps (literally grabbing one to play with his tail) and the boy she meets, it doesn't seem like she's been conditioned to not to reach out to others. I think it was more likely that since one parent worked there, they got special accommodations since the mother was terminal.

    It is also highly likely that Surma wished to pass down certain knowledge (hence the episode with the psychopomps) that would be difficult to have another person teach. Antimony's powers aren't well explained, but it does seem to be implied that they are very rare so it's not like she could have gotten a tutor to instruct that.
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2017-10-21 at 11:42 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    1) She volunteered to do something she has no training for. If she hadn't gone, it would have been cancelled. Her only job was to literally show up so higher ups would allow it. In that capacity, she's doing just fine. Expecting someone to adjust quickly to a demanding trip they had little preparation for is a bit much.
    It's not just that she wasn't fully up to speed; She had no idea at all about what they were going to do. She didn't even know that it involved insects! She must not have asked any questions or tried to find out anything at all. I agree with your point #2; she improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    3) You also don't call your coworkers sexy, which he did.
    Sure you can. You can even date coworkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    4) As stated, they're not coworkers, they're students in the same social circle.
    They are getting no academic benefit out of their work on the Omega project. It just seems to be some sort of a job for them. Even you used the terms "job" and "higher ups" as if it was work. Even if it's not work, the morality should still be the same, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    As for the Egalmore thing, I thought it was established that he had a crush on Antimony? If so, she's done nothing wrong. Could have been handled better, as she could have talked to him, but for all we know, she did.
    It apparently wasn't just a one-sided crush. She gave him a knife with a inscription that said "James, with love, Surma."
    Last edited by eschmenk; 2017-10-22 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    Sure you can. You can even date coworkers.
    But then TONY showed the sexual/romantic interest first, so Surma's reaction wasn't without basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    They are getting no academic benefit out of their work on the Omega project. It just seems to be some sort of a job for them. Even you used the terms "job" and "higher ups" as if it was work. Even if it's not work, the morality should still be the same, IMO.
    Kinda yes, kinda no. I get your point that it's probably the time to be professional-ish, but I think that point is moot if she's doing it as a favor because they're in the same social circle. Since they know each other outside of the project, I don't think it applies in the same way. If a friend shows up to help me with a job and indicates a possibility of yar-yar-hump hump time, I think that is different from hitting on someone you ONLY know as a coworker.

    I missed the part with the knife, but...We don't know if the inscription was meant as a sign of romantic or familial love. Also, the time does make a difference, which we don't know when he got that knife. I wouldn't put it past someone to give someone an inscription like that as a familial thing when they are a teenager, which would also make sense because it's a knife. That's a weird romantic gift to begin with. Greetings, romantic partner, as a symbol of my love, have this cutting implement.
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    But then TONY showed the sexual/romantic interest first, so Surma's reaction wasn't without basis.
    But he also laughed at her whenever she screwed up which seemed to indicate the opposite. Also, you can think something or someone is sexy without wanting to act upon it.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    But he also laughed at her whenever she screwed up which seemed to indicate the opposite. Also, you can think something or someone is sexy without wanting to act upon it.
    And yet he was fine with it, and fell in love because of it.
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    And yet he was fine with it, and fell in love because of it.
    Did he? Tony's motivations and feelings are totally unclear here. If he has been pining for Surma since he met her and just doing a very good job of hiding it, that's one thing, And might explain his reaction to Brinnie, But aside from his comment about the makeup, I don't recall we've seen anything the past few strips to show he was developing or had any interest in Surma...

    As horrifying as the prospect is, we need to get into Tony's head to find out what's going on. (shudder)

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    Did he? Tony's motivations and feelings are totally unclear here. If he has been pining for Surma since he met her and just doing a very good job of hiding it, that's one thing, And might explain his reaction to Brinnie, But aside from his comment about the makeup, I don't recall we've seen anything the past few strips to show he was developing or had any interest in Surma...
    When Brinnie tried to hit on him, she went all out with a flashy outfit and didn't ask him directly. He admitted to having difficulties interacting with people in a group, so the group date probably wasn't the best idea. To make matters worse...He really does seem like the type of guy to say he had work and mean it.

    When Surma hit on him, the two had interacted one on one. In addition, she showed dedication to her friends, a willingness to learn and hard work, traits he might like or liked in the past. If he's attracted to someone who is hard-working, that might explain his poor reaction to Antimony (since he might expect her to be able to do so much more as he might see her mother in her), as well as his pseudo-reaction to Brinnie, as he would have expected her to be more understanding of a genuine problem he had.

    Also, you probably don't become a doctor without that work stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
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    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  27. - Top - End - #297
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    guttering flame's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    new comic

    Spoiler: spoiler
    Show

    Is that a piece of the Courts protruding in the background?

    (also, these two sure packed a lot of clothes)

  28. - Top - End - #298
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    If it wasn't that I'm not very fond of either of these two now, and we know how this turns out, and what this is going to do to Jimmy-Jims, this would be kind of nice.

    And how many clothes DID Surma take on this trip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post

    <snip>

    I missed the part with the knife, but...We don't know if the inscription was meant as a sign of romantic or familial love. Also, the time does make a difference, which we don't know when he got that knife. I wouldn't put it past someone to give someone an inscription like that as a familial thing when they are a teenager, which would also make sense because it's a knife. That's a weird romantic gift to begin with. Greetings, romantic partner, as a symbol of my love, have this cutting implement.
    He's a dragon slayer. Weapons are his specialty. You don't get a dragon slayer a tea cozy. Well, you CAN, especially if he likes tea. But it's not the sort of gift that comes to mind...

    Also:

    When Coyote first met Annie, after mistaking her for Surma, he assumed she was Surma and Eglamore's child. When he learned Anthony was the father he exploded in laughter about how awkward that was.

    In the flashback to the photo shoot, we learned Surma did not want Jones in the picture and in fact doesn't seem to like her. As Jones doesn't usually go out of her way to irritate people, the logical explanation is that Surma was jealous of how close Eglamore and Jones were.

    In the flashback to Anja and Surma leaving the warehouse full of deactivated robots, Surma was wistful about James being away so much and indicated she wanted him with her.

    When dealing with Brinnie's crush on Tony, Donald tried to arrange the triple date as Surma and Eglamore, he and Anja, and Tony and Brinnie. But Tony refused to go along.

    Jones had to caution Eglamore not think of Annie as Carver's child, but rather Surma's daughter and a person in her own right. That wouldn't have been necessary if James weren't bitter about Tony.

    Occam's Razor: Surma and Eglamore were in love and everyone including them expected it to lead to marriage and baby carriage. And then Tony, and Surma's callowness, messed things up.

    I wonder what Surma and Eglamore's daughter would have been like. Not like Annie, I'm sure. And her father wouldn't have dumped her and run off after Surma died, no matter how emotionally devastated he was.

  29. - Top - End - #299
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I don't remember if it's already been pointed out or if it's just too obvious, but Anthony being relaxed and personable if only one person is around is supposed to be how Kat ended up getting along with him so well. But Kat had a much more negative opinion of Anthony than Surma did, so I'm still curious about the particulars.

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    He's a dragon slayer. Weapons are his specialty. You don't get a dragon slayer a tea cozy. Well, you CAN, especially if he likes tea. But it's not the sort of gift that comes to mind...
    You don't get a plumber a pipe cutter, you don't get a lawyer a briefcase, and you don't get a chef cooking utensils. And you don't engrave them if they're going to be banging them against dragon scale. Furthermore, given the shape of it, it looks more like a utility knife rather then a actual weapon. Also, one would assume that most shops don't carry dragon-slaying supplies, so it's probably just an average knife.

    Also, he's British, so the tea cozy thing might apply more.

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    When Coyote first met Annie, after mistaking her for Surma, he assumed she was Surma and Eglamore's child. When he learned Anthony was the father he exploded in laughter about how awkward that was.
    Coyote is a known trickster, and might have been trying to get under her skin, so I wouldn't put much stock into what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    I wonder what Surma and Eglamore's daughter would have been like. Not like Annie, I'm sure. And her father wouldn't have dumped her and run off after Surma died, no matter how emotionally devastated he was.
    Welp, we certainly agree here. I think Egalmore shows more paternal affection during the comic then Tony.

    Through in Tony's defense, he did see a baby suck the life out of his wife. That would probably screw with most people, but he's probably still a big ol' jerk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

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