Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

[Doran]

I don't remember if it's already been pointed out or if it's just too obvious, but Anthony being relaxed and personable if only one person is around is supposed to be how Kat ended up getting along with him so well. But Kat had a much more negative opinion of Anthony than Surma did, so I'm still curious about the particulars.

The weirdness with that is not that Kat found him likeable, but that she didn’t mention to Annie she had changed her opinion on him, or made an attempt at reconciling them both.

She knows Annie hold deeply conflicting feeling about her father, so not even to mention her work on his arm seems bizarre for her.

[Lethologica]

The weirdness with that is not that Kat found him likeable, but that she didn’t mention to Annie she had changed her opinion on him, or made an attempt at reconciling them both.

She knows Annie hold deeply conflicting feeling about her father, so not even to mention her work on his arm seems bizarre for her.

There can be multiple weirdnesses. Several people mentioned that Kat liking Anthony was weird at the time.

[Fawkes]

This is so boring and I hate it.

All right, I'm officially hate-reading Gunnerkrigg now. If I didn't have this forum to complain about it, I would already be out.

As horrifying as the prospect is, we need to get into Tony's head to find out what's going on. (shudder)

If that happens, I think I'd be out for real.

The weirdness with that is not that Kat found him likeable, but that she didn’t mention to Annie she had changed her opinion on him, or made an attempt at reconciling them both.

She knows Annie hold deeply conflicting feeling about her father, so not even to mention her work on his arm seems bizarre for her.

Honestly, this is just stupid to me. Having a major character make a complete 180 on their attitude to another character offscreen is just stupid.

Welp, we certainly agree here. I think Egalmore shows more paternal affection during the comic then Tony.

Through in Tony's defense, he did see a baby suck the life out of his wife. That would probably screw with most people, but he's probably still a big ol' jerk.

Greg Universe came out okay.

For real, women dying from complications from childbirth is something that happens in the real world. It's tragic and horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but if someone held their partner's death against the child that had no say in the matter, and continued to punish and abuse that child into their adolescence for the sin of being born, we would rightly call that monstrous.

[Leewei]

Tony's biggest flaw is his lack of empathy. If he could, for just a moment, put himself in his daughter's shoes, he could at least try to mitigate the horror he's inflicting on Antimony.

Her cheating on tests and homework had to stop. The court was going to throw her out unless he made her repeat a year. (Although, maybe by holding her back, Tony is on some level also trying to keep her from inevitably growing up and dying.)

The makeup that she'd been wearing ever since her introduction served as a painful reminder of her mother to Tony. This, in turn, made him see the road ahead for her, and ultimately her death (as had happened to Surma.)

As bad as that is, though, consider the fire elemental, passing itself on from one generation to the next, damaging every human life it touches as it inevitably leaves its beloved in mourning. Tony's a monster, but whatever set up that situation is far more horrible.

[Tvtyrant]

For real, women dying from complications from childbirth is something that happens in the real world. It's tragic and horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but if someone held their partner's death against the child that had no say in the matter, and continued to punish and abuse that child into their adolescence for the sin of being born, we would rightly call that monstrous.

This isn't what happened though? Tony went off to try to save his wife, then to resurrect her. His daughter went to go live at the court (and has most of the same personality problems Tony does). So far it isn't much different than having your kid go to a boarding school.

When he comes back he finds out that Annie has blown it, is going to be kicked out of the one place that could possibly save her life (since Tony clearly can't with modern medicine), and has been engaging in reckless behavior for years up to and including nearly getting herself killed on multiple occasions. So now Tony is being forced at figurative gunpoint to become a father, which he lacks the ability to do and botches it badly.

But not as badly as Annie does, who literally cripples herself instead of dealing with her emotions. Over the course of the strip Annie has ignored every piece of advice anyone has ever given her, flouted every authority, endangered herself and others, and when hemmed into a corner by her own actions lobotomized herself.

Tony isn't likable, granted, but there isn't a shred of difference between him and Annie. Brilliant, unable to relate to others, utterly selfish, and emotionally compromised by their guilt.

[Fawkes]

Are we really going back to saying Tony did nothing wrong?

He left his daughter when she needed him most, disappearing for years and making no attempt to contact her. This is not just 'having your kid go to boarding school'. The other children at the court could visit their parents, speak to them on the phone, write letters. Annie could not, because her mother died, and her father LEFT.

When he returns, he is not acting as a father. He makes no attempt to explain his absence, or reconnect with his daughter. He hands down a punishment for behavior that happened while he was away, and does so I'm his capacity as a member of the court. He is not being a father, he's being a teacher.

The only thing he does different than any teacher would is single Annie out, which we know by his admission he only did because he was upset she looked like Surma.

Annie's difficulty handling her own emotions in no way excuses Tony's treatment of her. If anything, maybe she'd have a stronger emotional maturity if she had a supportive parent around.

Tony is a neglectful and abusive parent and I'm done arguing this point.

[Tvtyrant]

Tony is a neglectful and abusive parent and I'm done arguing this point.

Okay, enjoy then.

[BRC]

This isn't what happened though? Tony went off to try to save his wife, then to resurrect her. His daughter went to go live at the court (and has most of the same personality problems Tony does). So far it isn't much different than having your kid go to a boarding school.

When he comes back he finds out that Annie has blown it, is going to be kicked out of the one place that could possibly save her life (since Tony clearly can't with modern medicine), and has been engaging in reckless behavior for years up to and including nearly getting herself killed on multiple occasions. So now Tony is being forced at figurative gunpoint to become a father, which he lacks the ability to do and botches it badly.

But not as badly as Annie does, who literally cripples herself instead of dealing with her emotions. Over the course of the strip Annie has ignored every piece of advice anyone has ever given her, flouted every authority, endangered herself and others, and when hemmed into a corner by her own actions lobotomized herself.

Tony isn't likable, granted, but there isn't a shred of difference between him and Annie. Brilliant, unable to relate to others, utterly selfish, and emotionally compromised by their guilt.

There's a difference between "Unsuited to being a Father" and "Shows up out of nowhere to publicly humiliate his daughter in front of her peers", which is what Tony did, because Annie reminds him of both Surma, and his failure to save her.

Had he merely "Botched it Badly", he probably would have at least had the courtesy to talk to her before showing up suddenly in class. Would have spoken with her about the cheating in private or with some other teachers. He might have been cold, distant, unsympathetic, and unwilling to discuss what he was doing for all those years while she was waiting at the Court.

But that's not what happened. This makes it pretty clear. He wanted to hurt her, explicitly because she looked so much like Surma.

[Tvtyrant]

There's a difference between "Unsuited to being a Father" and "Shows up out of nowhere to publicly humiliate his daughter in front of her peers", which is what Tony did, because Annie reminds him of both Surma, and his failure to save her.

Had he merely "Botched it Badly", he probably would have at least had the courtesy to talk to her before showing up suddenly in class. Would have spoken with her about the cheating in private or with some other teachers. He might have been cold, distant, unsympathetic, and unwilling to discuss what he was doing for all those years while she was waiting at the Court.

But that's not what happened. This makes it pretty clear. He wanted to hurt her, explicitly because she looked so much like Surma.

Again, no one likes Tony, myself included. But how can he have" at least had the courtesy to talk to her before showing up suddenly in class. Would have spoken with her about the cheating in private or with some other teachers. He might have been cold, distant, unsympathetic, and unwilling to discuss what he was doing for all those years while she was waiting at the Court." if we see right there he doesn't see her until the class started?

Tony never had any plan to meet with her before hand, and freaks out when he does meet her in class. The former is because he has no ability to be a parent, the latter is because he shares Annie's inability to control or moderate his emotions. The guy sucks, no doubt about that, but no more than the majority of the cast from this series. Gunnerkrigg Court is and has always been about tortured people.

[Lethologica]

For real, women dying from complications from childbirth is something that happens in the real world. It's tragic and horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but if someone held their partner's death against the child that had no say in the matter, and continued to punish and abuse that child into their adolescence for the sin of being born, we would rightly call that monstrous.

This is the exact plot of the backstory of my last D&D character.

[Fawkes]

This is the exact plot of the backstory of my last D&D character.

Your D&D character was Tyrion Lannister?

[Rodin]

I've gone back and read the last couple pages of the thread, and I couldn't find anyone saying "Tony has done nothing wrong". He's done a helluva lot wrong, and he's hurt himself, Annie, Donald and Anja, and a number of other people in the process. Like Donald himself says, nothing excuses what he did.

It's just that Tony isn't some slavering monster from a children's book trying to destroy everything he touches for the lulz. There's a real, human person in there, and I find that type of character far more interesting than the cackling madman who is being a villain just for the sake of being a villain.

When he was first introduced, I was firmly in the "burn him to ash Annie" camp. Now, I want to see him actually get his head together and mend his relationships. What he did should not be forgiven and certainly shouldn't be forgotten, but at some point you have to move forward.

[Lethologica]

Your D&D character was Tyrion Lannister?

As much as Annie is, anyway.

[NEO|Phyte]

My thoughts: Tony has been making super ****ty choices, but Coyote didn't call him Broken Man because he's short a hand and has some scars.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Tony has severely screwed up in his treatment of Annie. Severely.

But as someone who has can empathize with some of the problems Tony has shown - difficulty to connect with people, difficulty with emotions, and depression and self loathing - he drives me to pity more than to scorn.

Tony's problem isn't that he's a terrible dad. I mean, he is, he really is. His problem is that he's a terrible dad and he knows it, and he wants to change, but due to his emotional problems and difficulty relating with people, he can't change, even though he wants too.

I've spent my entire life living with people with mental illness and people who are not neurotypical. And while none of them have been AS bad as Tony, I know real people who screw up being parents or siblings or even just friends because of their mental illness - which they are aware of, and are making attempts to remedy, but still can't just because of how screwed up they are.

That's why I like Tony. Because I think he's a good reflection of people who do exist, and he's also somewhat tragic.

[eschmenk]

Honestly, this is just stupid to me. Having a major character make a complete 180 on their attitude to another character offscreen is just stupid.

A person's opinion can change 180 degrees, depending on why they thought whatever they thought. The problem in this case is that Kat disliked Tony because of the harm he caused to Kat's best friend. Even if it turns out he is fun to be with in one-on-one situations, that wouldn't excuse or erase the harm he caused Annie. It's as if Kat forgot all about that or Kat had no loyalty to Annie or something. I agree that doesn't seem realistic, given what we know of Kat. I am rather used to GK characters not seeming realistic, so it's not a big deal to me. I just don't worry about it anymore.

I don't remember if it's already been pointed out or if it's just too obvious, but Anthony being relaxed and personable if only one person is around is supposed to be how Kat ended up getting along with him so well. But Kat had a much more negative opinion of Anthony than Surma did, so I'm still curious about the particulars.

I don't blame you for wanting to know, but I will be surprised if we ever get a decent explanation.

[guttering flame]

A person's opinion can change 180 degrees, depending on why they thought whatever they thought. The problem in this case is that Kat disliked Tony because of the harm he caused to Kat's best friend. Even if it turns out he is fun to be with in one-on-one situations, that wouldn't excuse or erase the harm he caused Annie. It's as if Kat forgot all about that or Kat had no loyalty to Annie or something. I agree that doesn't seem realistic, given what we know of Kat. I am rather used to GK characters not seeming realistic, so it's not a big deal to me. I just don't worry about it anymore.



I don't blame you for wanting to know, but I will be surprised if we ever get a decent explanation.

I expect the next chapter returns to the present and answer these questions.

[danelsan]

Would someone be willing to drop me a message when this chapter is over? I'm tired of hoping the next page will be the last just to be disappointed again.

[Leewei]

This isn't what happened though? Tony went off to try to save his wife, then to resurrect her. His daughter went to go live at the court (and has most of the same personality problems Tony does). So far it isn't much different than having your kid go to a boarding school.

When he comes back he finds out that Annie has blown it, is going to be kicked out of the one place that could possibly save her life (since Tony clearly can't with modern medicine), and has been engaging in reckless behavior for years up to and including nearly getting herself killed on multiple occasions. So now Tony is being forced at figurative gunpoint to become a father, which he lacks the ability to do and botches it badly.

But not as badly as Annie does, who literally cripples herself instead of dealing with her emotions. Over the course of the strip Annie has ignored every piece of advice anyone has ever given her, flouted every authority, endangered herself and others, and when hemmed into a corner by her own actions lobotomized herself.

Tony isn't likable, granted, but there isn't a shred of difference between him and Annie. Brilliant, unable to relate to others, utterly selfish, and emotionally compromised by their guilt.

I mostly agree with what you've been writing. Did Tony not benefit from having parents, as well? That may have been hinted at. If Tony had parents, though, that puts him at a large relative advantage compared to Annie, who has had to fend for herself in his absence.

[Lethologica]

James Status: Not Dealt With

[Shadow of the Sun]

For them as were complaining of boredom, this might be a bit more interesting.

[eee]

It's that guy!

Well, at least we're out of the jungle.

Not a joke, Jimmy-Jims. Mind control. Brain damage. A hoax, a dream, an imaginary story.

Reality sucks.

[Typewriter]

I'm really surprised at the amount of hatred people here have for this arc (and the writing of Tony in general). I didn't like this web-comic at first but a few years ago someone on this forum (angrily) ranted at me about how Gunnerkrigg Court was a better web-comic than others because of its complex characters and intertwining story which resulted in me giving it a second chance and really enjoying it. Tony is a complex character with multiple facets. He is well written. His story is one that has been a key part of the story for the duration but one that they've only really delved into in any depth recently. He's a monster but not in the ways that were expected. Would people prefer it if he was a 1-dimensional monster or if he was simply a loving father like every other? That's not this story - that's never been the story they've hinted at.

[Doran]

I don't hate this arc, or the writing of Tony. I'm just getting antsy about the behavior of Kat at the start of this chapter, and the waiting until we know why. Plus the lampshading via Annie of the reader's reaction to such a 180 on Kat's opinion of Tony with no foreshadowing.

I mean it could be as simple as Tony swore Kat to secrecy about their meetings to fix his prosthetic because he didn't want to be mistaken by Annie as trying to control and influence every part of her life. A simple goal taken to an irrational extreme would be in character for him.

Then once working together, Tony could ask questions about Kat about Annie, showing he's a deeply flawed father who is still trying to change, increasing her opinion of him.

Finally all it takes is Annie bursting in on their meeting and Tony instantly turning into Stoneface out of panic.

It could be all of this or another plausible explanation but the waiting is still nerve-racking.

[Typewriter]

I don't hate this arc, or the writing of Tony. I'm just getting antsy about the behavior of Kat at the start of this chapter, and the waiting until we know why. Plus the lampshading via Annie of the reader's reaction to such a 180 on Kat's opinion of Tony with no foreshadowing.

I mean it could be as simple as Tony swore Kat to secrecy about their meetings to fix his prosthetic because he didn't want to be mistaken by Annie as trying to control and influence every part of her life. A simple goal taken to an irrational extreme would be in character for him.

Then once working together, Tony could ask questions about Kat about Annie, showing he's a deeply flawed father who is still trying to change, increasing her opinion of him.

Finally all it takes is Annie bursting in on their meeting and Tony instantly turning into Stoneface out of panic.

It could be all of this or another plausible explanation but the waiting is still nerve-racking.

I'm curious to find out some details about why nobody told Annie but as far as the 'why' of Kat liking Tony I think we're sort of being shown that in this story right now. Tony is good in 1-1 situations and likable when he is doing something he enjoys. We're seeing that with Surma right now and I think we're supposed to assume it's a similar (if less romantic) version of that. If they had shown that with Kat then turned around and shown us the flashback with Surma it would have been redundant.

My guess in regards to 'why didn't anyone tell Annie' is that it's going to be something fairly simple and straightforward - like maybe Annie hasn't gone to hang out with Kat in a couple days and in those couple days Kat came around to liking him while they worked together. Doesn't have to have been a secret for Annie to have not found out yet.

[eschmenk]

I'm curious to find out some details about why nobody told Annie but as far as the 'why' of Kat liking Tony I think we're sort of being shown that in this story right now. Tony is good in 1-1 situations and likable when he is doing something he enjoys. We're seeing that with Surma right now and I think we're supposed to assume it's a similar (if less romantic) version of that. If they had shown that with Kat then turned around and shown us the flashback with Surma it would have been redundant.

I don't see how Tony being good in one-on-one relationships would cause Kat to forgive Tony for the harm he had been causing and continues to cause to Annie. Why doesn't Kat resent Tony for that?

[eee]

I don't see how Tony being good in one-on-one relationships would cause Kat to forgive Tony for the harm he had been causing and continues to cause to Annie. Why doesn't Kat resent Tony for that?

Hear hear. This confuses me. I understand why Annie looks at this situation and thinks "Mind control". Unless Tony explained himself so well and so fully to Kat that it changed her opinion about everything, she should still regard him with loathing.

(I can see a MAJOR problem coming with all this talk of how personable and likeable Tony is in one on one situations. Annie and he have been together alone many times. And yet, from what we've seen, he's always cold, formal, and distant with her. Nothing likeable there. If, with Surma, Kat, Donald, etc, he's great; but with her, he's a jerk, she's going to start to wonder why.

If the idea that he hates her because she caused Surma's death enters her head...)

[Honest Tiefling]

I think there's a difference between finding a character sympathetic and finding them 'good'. I can sympathize that Tony has been a terrible father because of his own pain and failure to save his wife and possible search to save his daughter. It doesn't make him any better of a father, he's absolute crap at it, and he's done horrible things to his daughter. He's no less of a 'villian' as much as this story has one (other then Diego) then before, but it does shed some light on the 'why' of it.

[Fawkes]

I'm really surprised at the amount of hatred people here have for this arc (and the writing of Tony in general). I didn't like this web-comic at first but a few years ago someone on this forum (angrily) ranted at me about how Gunnerkrigg Court was a better web-comic than others because of its complex characters and intertwining story which resulted in me giving it a second chance and really enjoying it. Tony is a complex character with multiple facets. He is well written. His story is one that has been a key part of the story for the duration but one that they've only really delved into in any depth recently. He's a monster but not in the ways that were expected. Would people prefer it if he was a 1-dimensional monster or if he was simply a loving father like every other? That's not this story - that's never been the story they've hinted at.

I don't find Tony that complex, at least not in any way that interests me. I find his whole schtick unpleasant and dull.

The thing that attracted me to Gunnerkrigg was the combination of elements: a story that was both dark and brooding as well as whimsical and magical. Tony's introduction introduction took anything that was fun or whimsical and shoved it in a box, and buried it under the font of human misery that is Anthony Carver.

Those first three chapters when he returned - The Tree, Sneak, and Annie in the Fire - were excruciatingly miserable. An the conclusion to that mini-arc - the one-page chapter The Breakout - was an unsatisfying conclusion that seemed to be more designed to troll the audience than to tell a good story.

Thankfully, we got a return to some whimsy in the bowling trip in Get It Together and the forest nonsense in Big Day, and a return to adventure and a conclusion to a much more interesting plotline in Jeanne and The Other Shore. And then, while The Shadow Men gave us interesting new characters in Juliette and Arthur, it also brought back Tony to make everything miserable again.

[Typewriter]

I don't see how Tony being good in one-on-one relationships would cause Kat to forgive Tony for the harm he had been causing and continues to cause to Annie. Why doesn't Kat resent Tony for that?

I don't think we've seen any indication that Kat has 'forgiven' him though have we? She's in a position where she had to work with him, she learned to see that there are multiple sides of him. You can find someone funny/charming/interesting without forgiving them for past activities.

Hear hear. This confuses me. I understand why Annie looks at this situation and thinks "Mind control". Unless Tony explained himself so well and so fully to Kat that it changed her opinion about everything, she should still regard him with loathing.

(I can see a MAJOR problem coming with all this talk of how personable and likeable Tony is in one on one situations. Annie and he have been together alone many times. And yet, from what we've seen, he's always cold, formal, and distant with her. Nothing likeable there. If, with Surma, Kat, Donald, etc, he's great; but with her, he's a jerk, she's going to start to wonder why.

If the idea that he hates her because she caused Surma's death enters her head...)

I don't think he hates Annie, I think he hates being around Annie because he doesn't know what to do around her. She reminds him of his wife whom he failed to save, she reminds him of his failures, she reminds him that he abandoned her and I think he's ashamed of that. He knows he's made mistakes and he knows the only way to atone for those mistakes is to be good to his daughter but he looks at her and sees his wife and he can't bring himself to be kind to her.

I really hope Annie starts to question why and that it leads to a confrontation with her dad. She's been told, several times, that he was better in 1-1 situations, she saw, through her blinker stone, him being emotionally vulnerable and hurting, she's seen how her best friend - her defender - can come around to liking him, and now she's hearing the story of how her mother fell in love with him. I really think a confrontation is coming (and I really hope it doesn't end with her forgiving him for past actions).

I think there's a difference between finding a character sympathetic and finding them 'good'. I can sympathize that Tony has been a terrible father because of his own pain and failure to save his wife and possible search to save his daughter. It doesn't make him any better of a father, he's absolute crap at it, and he's done horrible things to his daughter. He's no less of a 'villian' as much as this story has one (other then Diego) then before, but it does shed some light on the 'why' of it.

I find him well written. I don't think he's a good person - I think he wants to be, but I think he's bad at it.

I don't find Tony that complex, at least not in any way that interests me. I find his whole schtick unpleasant and dull.

The thing that attracted me to Gunnerkrigg was the combination of elements: a story that was both dark and brooding as well as whimsical and magical. Tony's introduction introduction took anything that was fun or whimsical and shoved it in a box, and buried it under the font of human misery that is Anthony Carver.

Those first three chapters when he returned - The Tree, Sneak, and Annie in the Fire - were excruciatingly miserable. An the conclusion to that mini-arc - the one-page chapter The Breakout - was an unsatisfying conclusion that seemed to be more designed to troll the audience than to tell a good story.

Thankfully, we got a return to some whimsy in the bowling trip in Get It Together and the forest nonsense in Big Day, and a return to adventure and a conclusion to a much more interesting plotline in Jeanne and The Other Shore. And then, while The Shadow Men gave us interesting new characters in Juliette and Arthur, it also brought back Tony to make everything miserable again.

See, I feel very different from you in a lot of ways. While I like the story for the whimsy and magic I will also admit that I've never particularly cared for Antimony herself. She's always been boring to me because it feels like the plot warps around her desires. Not quite a Mary Sue, but close enough to be frustrating at times. She is OP as hell. And then a character shows up who has been teased through the entire duration of the comic and he shuts her down completely - simply by existing in her presence. We see her struggling - trying to accomplish something that is, for the moment at least, unobtainable. We see how she retreats within herself - away from herself - before finally starting to grow again. I feel like this is the first time I've really seen Antimony have to work for something and so it makes her growth feel more real to me.

As for 'the breakout' - I found it rather amusing personally. Was it a troll or was it simply a play on peoples expectations? Tony is monstrous towards Annie so people are continually expecting every interaction with him to be some sort of strife when the fact is that he's simply not the monster people want him to be.