The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Agreed. Tom did a good job of making me feel sorry for the guy. That doesn't mean I forgive him, but I no longer wish to punch him in the face. Dude has serious emotional problems, particularly regarding Antimony since on some level he blames her for Surma's death.

    He's a character in need of redemption, and I hope he finds it.
    I acknowledge that Tony has had a rough life, but it's what you do with it that shows a character's mettle. Compare Tony with Zimmy. Both of have had some really nasty events/ongoing events that could make them terrible people. Despite her rudeness and spiteful attitude, when push came to shove Zimmy rescued her friend at great personal risk despite being terrified of the odds. Tony darn near accidentally killed Annie, and then was a horribly abusive/domineering father that crushed Annie underfoot.

    I'll grant that he's improved, but he's still a threat to Annie's well-being. In my book at least, pity for him doesn't equal forgiveness. I think redemption might be in Tony's reach, but you won't find it if we keep banging on the pity drum.

    Besides, I've got this lovely funeral pyre ready to go. Come on Denethor, what's keeping you? :P

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    Tony darn near accidentally killed Annie
    I'd stress the "accidentally" part here. In fact, that might be a slightly misleading word, since it implies he was being negligent or something, not being tricked into it by unknown demonic creatures. Sure, trusting unknown demons may not have been the best idea, but I don't think it really reflects on his moral character (we know he considered whatever Zimmy did to him a worthwhile price for preventing Annie from being harmed and that he deeply regrets the entire incident).

    and then was a horribly abusive/domineering father that crushed Annie underfoot.
    It's not like he had much of a choice, considering the alternative. And even ignoring for the moment the fact that it was this or have her expelled, she was kind of under-disciplined. She cheated in almost all of her classes and failed to attend the detentions they gave her (she even joked about them calling in her parents, in hindsight perhaps that's foreshadowing).

    And since I'm making a post about Tony anyway, I'd just like to point out a page that I think receives much less attention than it deserves. The one where Tony stands up to Coyote the literal god five minutes after he casually destroys an entire building in a show of power, because he's concerned for Annie's safety. That's a man who cares about his daughter.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    He made a deal with the court to keep Annie from being 'banished', and then lashed out at her because she reminded him of her mother. Tony is an awful parent and an awful guardian and should not be allowed anywhere near Antimony.

    (Also, I'm not entirely convinced being banished from the Court would really be a bad thing - the Court is pretty objectively terrible. Also, they were willing to wait until after graduation, so it hardly matters.)
    Last edited by Fawkes; 2017-09-12 at 06:54 PM.


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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    In my book at least, pity for him doesn't equal forgiveness.
    Was that even under debate? I feel like the comic itself was pretty explicit about understanding his reasons not excusing his behaviour.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by SZbNAhL View Post

    It's not like he had much of a choice, considering the alternative. And even ignoring for the moment the fact that it was this or have her expelled, she was kind of under-disciplined. She cheated in almost all of her classes and failed to attend the detentions they gave her (she even joked about them calling in her parents, in hindsight perhaps that's foreshadowing).

    And since I'm making a post about Tony anyway, I'd just like to point out a page that I think receives much less attention than it deserves. The one where Tony stands up to Coyote the literal god five minutes after he casually destroys an entire building in a show of power, because he's concerned for Annie's safety. That's a man who cares about his daughter.
    The deal was that he come back to work for the Court, and that Annie re-take the classes she cheated in.

    Psychologically abusing and traumatizing her was all Tony.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    There's also the earlier neglect and then complete abandonment she suffered before coming to the court. He taught her martial arts when she was a small child (5-6 I guess). Maybe he was a passable parent back then, though it already shows he took an overly authoritarian role with her. But as her mother got sick he closeted himself in his office from both of them and left Annie and her mother alone in her hospital room. There's no sign of him then. And of course once Surma died he disappeared completely. Later he uses his daughter to get the ingredients for Surma's resurrection.

    Calling his current relationship with her 'better' is a stretch. Maybe he's not actively abusing her but there's no warmth or much interaction at all either. And the living arrangements are against terrible. That's not parenting. That's hardly even teacher-student relationship.
    Last edited by guttering flame; 2017-09-13 at 01:46 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Their present relationship is so bad that if anyone unexpectedly says something positive about Anthony, Annie concludes that he brainwashed them. That doesn't necessarily mean that his present behavior is worse than it was in the past, but it's certainly hard to imagine their past relationship being worse than that.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Full disclosure: I actually like Tony as a character, so I've got some bias here.

    But I think that Tony's biggest issue - at least with how he relates to Annie - is that he thinks that he's already burnt his bridges. He thinks he's screwed up so badly that any attempt to reconcile, or to make up for his abuse and neglect, will necessarily fail due to how badly he's screwed up. And, frankly, that might actually be true. But he should still try rather than act like he's screwed up beyond repair.

    Tony is certainly an abusive parents. And that's not arguable. But unlike some abusive parents, he's aware that what he's done is abuse, and that he's screwed up royally in doing so. Unfortunately, he doesn't believe himself capable of being forgiven, or even of being worthy of Annie's love at all, and so he doesn't even try.

    As someone with clinical depression, I can certainly understand that viewpoint, even if I disagree with it. And... trying to make up for stuff that you've done like that is incredibly hard when filtered through the general numbness and lack-of-life that depression gives you. After a certain point, it becomes "I've messed up so irreparably that I can't even conceive of making up for my failures and flaws... so why even try?"

    I see a lot of myself in Tony - which, perhaps not coincidentally is why I don't think I'm ready to have children and question whether I'll ever be ready to have children. And perhaps Tony did think he was ready to have a child, but was found completely unprepared when it actually occurred. I've known people like that, too.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Tony is the great-grandson of Jeeves and inheritor of the formula for his anti-hangover morning 'pick-me-up'.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    It's too late. He's administered the mind control potion under the guise of coffee. There's no hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by stsasser View Post
    Tony is the great-grandson of Jeeves and inheritor of the formula for his anti-hangover morning 'pick-me-up'.
    I'm a fan of P.G. Wodehouse, and I get that reference!

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    It's too late. He's administered the mind control potion under the guise of coffee. There's no hope.
    Knowing Tom I wouldn't rule anything out. But for now it really does look like the two of them just learned to get along while alone together in the jungle. He does seem a lot less stiff and awkward compared to the start of the chapter. And easier to get along with. This could be how he bonds with people; over something work-related.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    I see a lot of myself in Tony - which, perhaps not coincidentally is why I don't think I'm ready to have children and question whether I'll ever be ready to have children. And perhaps Tony did think he was ready to have a child, but was found completely unprepared when it actually occurred. I've known people like that, too.
    I also get a strong impression that Tony did not believe in the whole "fire elemental" business. He thought it a disease that could be cured, and encountering something etheric that no amount of science could address was pretty shattering.

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Surma is not a scientist.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I also get a strong impression that Tony did not believe in the whole "fire elemental" business. He thought it a disease that could be cured, and encountering something etheric that no amount of science could address was pretty shattering.
    Is tony? He's an OK observer but somehow I doubt he's got the necessary originality.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I don't know. I can totally see Tony as a SCP scientist. Sorta just winging it and recording everything. I bet he is the meticulous type.

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Tony isn't a scientist yet, or if he is, he's a very junior one. He's out in the field taking observations apparently under the direction of scientists who remained back at the court. He apparently gained more independence and originality when he got older.

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance


  18. - Top - End - #228
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    As someone who has done a fair amount of scientific work, I can confirm. Waiting for something to happen and staring at it until that something does is a large part of certain scientific endeavors.

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    guttering flame's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    But Surma isn't there to perform scientific experiments. She's just stuck hanging with friend-of-a-friend Tony. Even for a scientific experiment this was a bit sketchy. In a usual scenario you'd go into the experiment with an idea of what you're doing, what to expect and what's the significance of the experiment in the first place. This was just "Go to a random spot on the map and wait for something to happen." Might as well hang a camcorder in their place.

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    Might as well hang a camcorder in their place.
    Except that Tony said that they both had to be awake, so maybe both had to be there? Maybe they want to test if Surma could see something that Tony couldn't or visa-versa?

    BTW, the shirt Tony wore on the first trip to the tree looks like it might have the Shadow Men insignia on it. It was just a regular shirt otherwise, though.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    Except that Tony said that they both had to be awake, so maybe both had to be there? Maybe they want to test if Surma could see something that Tony couldn't or visa-versa?
    In other words they're test subjects, not scientists. Surma wasn't supposed to be there originally though it was a two men expedition.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    One person to witness the event and the other person to corroborate the story. As for "why not camcorder?" The phenomena that the Court are chiefly interested in are aetheric in nature. Mechanical vs. Human observation might not be a variable they want to test at this juncture.
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    In other words they're test subjects, not scientists.
    I never thought they were scientists. They seem more like college students. Yes, IRL it would be weird that studnets would be sent on a private plane on a trip like that, but it doesn't seem out of place in GK.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    Might as well hang a camcorder in their place.
    That only works if the your experiment doesn't require monitoring and maintenance. I remember for the vast majorty of my experimental research nothing would happen, but there was always that one run in a hundred where the accelerator would fail and you had to shut everything down. Or the one run in 2-3thousand where something would go really wrong and you had to reboot the DAQ and then troubleshoot everything.

    edit: According to my cousin in EEB it's even worse for biological field research where your subjects tend to wander off if you aren't careful.
    Last edited by Ronnoc; 2017-09-21 at 05:36 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    My prediction: Something's been happening this entire time, but it's purely etheric so it is going unnoticed until Surma gets bored and takes a look.
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  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Uh-oh. When a hornet's nest gets whacked, even unintentionally, even by a branch falling on it naturally, the hornets come out and 'discuss' the matter with anyone around. Is this the equivalent of whacking a nest, and what will be the result?

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Bored Surma is looking for something as a distraction.
    Tony is looking like a distraction.
    Bored Surma is a horny Surma.
    Cunning Tony!
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  28. - Top - End - #238
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    I would imagine these are children leaving their mother on whose body they've been living, and striking out on their own. (Or something like mosquitoes and human bot flies; careful looking it up, it's disturbing). If the mother dies afterwards, having sacrificed herself to give her children life, Surma might apply that to her own situation.

    Of course the main thing is, she didn't emit a scream of cosmic horror and incinerate bug and clipboard immediately. She's apparently being desensitized out of her dislike.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

    Anime Surma is excellent.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance

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    She is about to push him over that rock, then they will fall together and realize their feelings for one another

    Also, I was about to say it feels like we are spending too much time establishing that these two characters fell for each other, but then I remembered it hasn't actually been that many strips it just feels that way because the comic only updates three times a week. Reminds me of why I switched to only reading OOTS when the books come out.
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