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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    I was thinking of a way to "fix" two weapon fightin]g and figured a feat similar to the power level of GWM or Sharpshooter will be needed. This will be in addition to the Dual Wielder feat in the book and not instead of. The version as written might be massively overpowered but I will explain each ability. Let me know what you think about it.

    Dual Blade Mastery
    You have mastered the art of fighting with two blades and use skill to press your advantage. Your blades swirl and confuse your opponent, acting as a single weapon. You gain the following benefits
    -While holding a separate weapon in each hand each attack you make has advantage. [Auto ADV is insane but not when it is limited to a one handed weapon in each hand (and light without the other feat). No GWM or Sharpshooter makes ADV less abusable IMO. While possibly not historical fighting accurate I picture it being more difficult for an opponent to fend off someone with two weapons. This also help support the best TWF subclass in The Champion while giving other classes a reason to use it]
    -While holding a separate weapon in each hand each attack you make adds your proficiency score to damage. [TWF needs a damage help to justify giving up a bonus action or GWM/Sharpshooter. I did not want a -5/+10 ability as those are known for being over powered. As TWF is a style that begins strong and becomes less competitive as time passes. At 20th lvl, a fighter gets +30 to damage from this ability. Which is less than the +50 possible from GWM or Sharpshooter when combined with PAM or Cross Bow Mastery and 10 less without the feat. The weapon dice also become a factor when comparing just GWM and Sharpshooter to this feat without a second weapons feat. This ability implies the character is channeling their skills into the attacks which I like.]
    -If one of the two weapons you are holding is magical, you may treat attacks made with the other weapon as if it was made with the magical one except for damage type. You may only do this with one magic item you wield. [This one is the most awkwardly worded of the three. Basically, if one of your weapons is a plus 3 or flametongue you can treat the other weapon as if it was one. A big drawback to TWF is the need for two magic items. This is especially telling with magical polearms or handcrossbows that get the benefit of TWF with only one weapon]

    So how over power did I make this? I considered dropping the 2nd benefit to half the proficiency score and thought about improving critical chance over advantage. I also thought of adding damage dice to either all attacks or to the bonus action attack to just make it a powerful swing but could not decide on a simple scaling way that won't be broken with V Human taking at lvl 1. I also considered making the feat require two different types of weapons but that seemed concept limiting or giving special bonuses for weapon types (such as an warhammer and warpick somehow giving a different benefit than hammer and sword).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
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    Greece
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    Male

    Default Re: Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    I was thinking of a way to "fix" two weapon fightin]g and figured a feat similar to the power level of GWM or Sharpshooter will be needed.
    Perhaps the wisest move would be to nerf these two feats, but I am getting off topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    This will be in addition to the Dual Wielder feat in the book and not instead of.
    A better way would be just to boost dual wielder and the two-weapon fighting style. Adding more feats will just make it awkward for non-fighters (especially for palys, rangers, bards, and generally any class that is MAD and doesnt get extra ASIs).


    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    -While holding a separate weapon in each hand each attack you make has advantage.
    This is massive on a rogue. Especially for a rogue who has BB. This part of the feat simply needs to die...


    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    -While holding a separate weapon in each hand each attack you make adds your proficiency score to damage.
    I like this part. It plays well with the fighter's multiple extra attacks, and this is the direction in which a good twf feat should move, since as it is, the fighter is actually the worst chassis to apply twf on.
    (Every time I see a twf fighter I die a little inside, and I blame the game mechanics for it, as I love the twf style)


    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    -(snip)
    [This one is the most awkwardly worded of the three. Basically, if one of your weapons is a plus 3 or flametongue you can treat the other weapon as if it was one. A big drawback to TWF is the need for two magic items. This is especially telling with magical polearms or handcrossbows that get the benefit of TWF with only one weapon]
    Mmmmm...... too campaign dependent. For example, the campaigns I play in are very light on magic items. So I would prefer build defining feats (which come at a serious expense, as feats come by at a cost), as all weapon feats are, to not have any benefit of such situational value, built in them. But that is just mostly preference.
    Also, there is something bugging me about how you fluff something like this. I mean, if it was a feat that related more with magic or sth it could be justified, but this is just a weapon/fighting feat, and it just wouldnt feel right, if say, a ''mundane'' fighter could perform sth like this, which from a fluff perspective falls more into a bladelock's, bladesinger's or eldritch knight's teritory.
    Hacks!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post

    A better way would be just to boost dual wielder and the two-weapon fighting style. Adding more feats will just make it awkward for non-fighters (especially for palys, rangers, bards, and generally any class that is MAD and doesnt get extra ASIs).
    I tried to make it so using two light weapons will equally get a buff. Also I think the optimized weapon specific builds require 2 feats for them (GWM/PAM and SS/CBM) so I was going with that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post

    This is massive on a rogue. Especially for a rogue who has BB. This part of the feat simply needs to die...
    I did not think of that interaction. Agreed then. I was debating whether to go with just adv or just the damage boost and this tells me which direction to focus on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post

    Mmmmm...... too campaign dependent. For example, the campaigns I play in are very light on magic items. So I would prefer build defining feats (which come at a serious expense, as feats come by at a cost), as all weapon feats are, to not have any benefit of such situational value, built in them. But that is just mostly preference.
    Also, there is something bugging me about how you fluff something like this. I mean, if it was a feat that related more with magic or sth it could be justified, but this is just a weapon/fighting feat, and it just wouldnt feel right, if say, a ''mundane'' fighter could perform sth like this, which from a fluff perspective falls more into a bladelock's, bladesinger's or eldritch knight's teritory.
    Because it is campaign dependent is why I thought it'll be ok. It won't matter where it doesn't matter and a lot of people do complain about this. As for fluff, I saw it a bit as using the weapons in such perfectly harmony that the two hit as one almost and blur together.
    Last edited by suplee215; 2017-05-25 at 10:54 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Massachusetts

    Default Re: Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    We use two-weapon rend at our table.

    When you hit with both your main hand and off hand, you can use your reaction to rend your opponent. You add twice your proficiency bonus in damage.

    It levels appropriately 2-6, +4 to +12 damage and you have to give up your reaction which is valuable to do it.

    I swear this works, and players are quite happy with it.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    1. Two Weapon Fighter is always ahead from levels 1-4, and as good or better up to 11th if you have at least an 18 in Str/Dex.
    --this is assuming that you do not have Great Weapon Master as an option.

    2. Dual Wielder is underpowered because the swap from a d6 Scimitar to a d8 Rapier, is only +1 damage on average. It is vastly more important to get Two Weapon Fighter, which is usually a total of +3 damage from the offhand.

    So the problem is the balance of PAM/GWM, and the availability of TWF.

    The first and easiest, least invasive fix at my table was to swap Dual Wielder and Two Weapon Fighter.
    In this version, taking Dual Wielder would let you add your Ability to damage on the off hand. Two Weapon Fighter let's you use a bigger weapon.

    This fixes 2 problems. First, it lets people dual wield without first dipping either Fighter or Ranger for the style. Second, it pushes back the balance of dual wielding so that it is not overshadowing at lower levels.

    Now, as far as Great Weapon Master...
    There are really only 3 classes who can abuse GWM: Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin.
    >> Fighter does it through number of attacks.
    >> Barbarian does it by offsetting the -5 with Reckless.
    >> Paladin does it because even at -5, a 20 still autohits and crits, and they only Smite on Crits.

    Conversely, the other "melee" classes who want to dual-wield usually have another means to keep up damage.
    >> Rogue is the only pure melee of the dual-wielders, and gets Sneak Attack dice to keep their damage competitive.
    >> Ranger is the next most melee oriented, and as such, gets TWF out of the gates. They also have access to Hunter's Mark for +d6 per hit.
    >> Warlock is your last candidate, particularly only Blade Pact and/or Hexblade. They get Hex/Curse damage added per hit.
    >> An edge case can be made for Valor Bards, but they have never had truly competitive melee damage, since they lack a way to scale their attacks beyond just Extra Attack.

    So really, GWM isn't as problematic as people make it out to be IF you allow Ability on the Offhand attack. In terms of optimization, if you're not a Fighter, you either get 2 Attacks with GWM exploits, or you get 2+Bonus Attacks with Dual Wielder and a "booster". Bear in mind that the classes who favor dual-wielding are also not "primary" melee combatants, they are bringing something else to the table and don't need to also be dealing the most damage in the party.
    Nothing is stopping you from building a dual-axe Barbarian, but understand that this is a choice of "form over function" and you will not be bleeding-edge optimized for raw damage. And that's fine.

    The real abomination here, is Polearm Master.
    D10+D4 is equal to d8+d6, and the bonus attack still benefits from your ability score. Also, as it's all a single weapon, it's the last way to get "double weapon" shenanigans in the game, with a single buff applied to one weapon affecting both attacks. A +1 Polearm is better than a pair of +1 Short Swords.
    This alone wouldn't be so bad, except that polearms also benefit from GWM, and RAW indicates that they benefit with both ends.

    My group's fix for this is, likewise, massively simple: we drop the butt-end attack entirely.
    In it's place, you have a choice: either +1 Strength, or you can get +1AC.

    The last major offender for "martial" balance, is Sharp Shooter.
    To fix this (and not double-tax those who wish to use XBows) we rule that Sharpshooter can only be used on a single shot per turn. Again, very simple fix.
    "If it's just Dailies done, they'll press on; Fighter cussing monsters, Ranger and Rogue cussing Fighter, and the Cleric cussing everyone. They're only down to about 70% HAIR (hard a** indicative rating) anyway, and probably have yet to run across any sand-paper"

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Homebrew Dual Wielder Feat

    I'd look at Matthew Mercer's Blood Hunter class, simply because two-weapon fighting is extremely powerful with their Crimson Rite feature. That only adds a single die - scaling from 1d4 at level 1 up to 1d10 at 16 - and makes it viable.

    So I think proficiency bonus to damage is the right direction, for a feat. The advantage on all attacks is just too good - but I do like having advantage on just the offhand attack. That's the thing that makes TWF different from everything else, so focusing on making the offhand attack the 'big thing' for the build makes sense. Unfortunately, that method favours Rogues more than classes with Extra Attack (especially Fighter) so that may not be a good idea either.

    The third feature, I feel is just too complicated to work. Not to mention, it's campaign/DM specific - the official materials try to avoid referencing magic items in player options as well, so it doesn't feel like something you'd see officially. I'd drop it, and maybe instead replacing it with something like the Bladelock feature or the Wild Druid/Monk features that make your attacks count as 'magical' for ignoring weapon resistances. That's useful even in a low magic campaign - even more so, actually.

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