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    Default Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    I designed a Dread necromancer awhile back and wanted felt like it was getting close to being ready, I would really like to get some feedback on it, so that I can fix what needs to be fixed to bring it into balance

    The link to the homebrewery is here

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Might want to check that link, at least for me it doesn't work, while my own links to homebrewery do...
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:


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    Writing blue text written in cursive/italics is me being sarcastic or lighthearted, thus not intentionally offensive.

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Might want to check that link, at least for me it doesn't work, while my own links to homebrewery do...
    I forgot to remove the http at the beginning it should work now

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Now that the link is working properly I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the class, if there is anything that feels really off, or if the wording is weird any feedback is appreciated

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    This looks like a straight upgrade from wizards to me. With arcane recovery and the spellbook you get just as many spells known and slots as a wizard but more (and more powerful) class abilities. I suggest removing arcane recovery. Going with a bardic spells known progression might be better for balance too, but I can see how that messes with the flavour a bit. The spell slots is definitely the more pertinent issue that I can see in either case.
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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    This looks like a straight upgrade from wizards to me. With arcane recovery and the spellbook you get just as many spells known and slots as a wizard but more (and more powerful) class abilities. I suggest removing arcane recovery. Going with a bardic spells known progression might be better for balance too, but I can see how that messes with the flavour a bit. The spell slots is definitely the more pertinent issue that I can see in either case.
    It's a full caster, the spell slots are the same for all full casters, but I see what you are saying about the arcane recovery, however I thought it was balanced by the limited number of spells you have to choose from

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    It's not balanced.

    Arcane recovery is a big part of a wizard's power. Druids have to give up turning into a big nasty beasties to get a similar ability.

    A dread necromancer has as many spell slots per day as a wizard, potentially as many spells knows, undead minions using a toned-down version of the necromancer wizard's 14th level ability (that the dread necromancer gets 9 levels earlier), an at-will fear effect that doesn't require an action, a version of the barbarian's relentless rage, the ability to buff your undead minions, and effective immortality.

    That on it's own is a base class more powerful than any wizard archetype.

    Undead lord adds medium armour AC, a better ranger companion (it's undead and can wield weapons), a MUCH more powerful version of the Necromancer wizard's undead thralls ability, effective profficiency with shields, and an at-will damage+paralysis ability.

    A limited spell list doesn't come close to balancing.

    This requires a lot of work (read: nerfing) to be balanced. Most of the abilities need to be tuned down, it needs to lose arcane recovery, and probably full-caster progression too. This would make a great BBEG NPC but i would never allow it for a PC.
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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    It's not balanced.

    Arcane recovery is a big part of a wizard's power. Druids have to give up turning into a big nasty beasties to get a similar ability.
    I removed Arcane Recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    A dread necromancer has as many spell slots per day as a wizard, potentially as many spells knows, undead minions using a toned-down version of the necromancer wizard's 14th level ability (that the dread necromancer gets 9 levels earlier)
    Would it be better if I set a cap on the maximum number of hit die that could be affected, such as half your level rounded down

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    an at-will fear effect that doesn't require an action, a version of the barbarian's relentless rage
    I made this into an action, my thought is to have it be usable a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier a day,

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    the ability to buff your undead minions
    Should I remove the damage, or reduce t

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    effective immortality.
    At level 20, but I can add restrictions, or a higher cost to it

    That on it's own is a base class more powerful than any wizard archetype.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    Undead lord adds medium armour AC
    I can drop this
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    a better ranger companion (it's undead and can wield weapons)
    This is the only feature the archetype gets, I can make it weaker, but I'm not sure exactly how beyond making it into a undead beast, but I feel like this being their only feature (all the other archetype features build on this one) and the fact that they have a lower hit die makes up for the stronger companion
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    a MUCH more powerful version of the Necromancer wizard's undead thralls ability
    I can reduce this down to the wizards version, or just remove it
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    effective profficiency with shields, and an at-will damage+paralysis ability
    at level 15 as a non melee class, I gave the ability to get in close and risk being steam rolled so that you can get in a powerful melee attack

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama513 View Post
    I see what you are saying, I removed the arcane recovery, however I want to keep them as full casters, I will take a look at the other things you have pointed out
    You could consider, instead of making each subclass amazingly effective on it's own, making their abilities enhance the core dread necromancer abilities in different ways.

    For instance: Make the core abilities about summoning and controlling undead

    Undead lord gets a few powers that buff the minions from the back line (but not the AC boosts or companion). Unless you really want to keep the companion in which case I'd suggest making the core abilities less about minions so this subclass can feel more unique.

    Plague blade gets a few powers that let them fight alongside the minion in the front lines (maybe just slightly weaker versions of what you already have).

    Soul caster gets a few powers related to allowing you to summon incorporeal undead instead of just skeletons and zombies.

    (These are all assuming you want the dread necromancer to be a minion class, which is what it looks like once you cut through all the extra extra stuff)

    You could probably move around the levels they learn things and add a few more 'blank' levels too. Check out most of the other full-casters' ability progressions: On levels when they start being able to cast a higher level of spell they don't learn anything else since that's already a pretty cool power boost.

    As for specific changes to specific abilities: Look at abilities other classes get at similar levels (once you've worked out the ability progression to your liking) and just try to balance each against those. If you do that, and don't try to pack in too many powers into the class, it'll balance itself.

    TL;DR: Try giving the core abilities a clear focus, and the subclass abilities powers that boost or complement that core in unique ways. Move around the ability progression and remove some abilities to bring it closer in line with the progression of other full casters. Balance individual abilities against abilities granted to other classes at the same level (but try not to overload them with too many abilities).
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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    You could consider, instead of making each subclass amazingly effective on it's own, making their abilities enhance the core dread necromancer abilities in different ways.

    For instance: Make the core abilities about summoning and controlling undead

    Undead lord gets a few powers that buff the minions from the back line (but not the AC boosts or companion). Unless you really want to keep the companion in which case I'd suggest making the core abilities less about minions so this subclass can feel more unique.

    Plague blade gets a few powers that let them fight alongside the minion in the front lines (maybe just slightly weaker versions of what you already have).

    Soul caster gets a few powers related to allowing you to summon incorporeal undead instead of just skeletons and zombies.

    (These are all assuming you want the dread necromancer to be a minion class, which is what it looks like once you cut through all the extra extra stuff)

    You could probably move around the levels they learn things and add a few more 'blank' levels too. Check out most of the other full-casters' ability progressions: On levels when they start being able to cast a higher level of spell they don't learn anything else since that's already a pretty cool power boost.

    As for specific changes to specific abilities: Look at abilities other classes get at similar levels (once you've worked out the ability progression to your liking) and just try to balance each against those. If you do that, and don't try to pack in too many powers into the class, it'll balance itself.

    TL;DR: Try giving the core abilities a clear focus, and the subclass abilities powers that boost or complement that core in unique ways. Move around the ability progression and remove some abilities to bring it closer in line with the progression of other full casters. Balance individual abilities against abilities granted to other classes at the same level (but try not to overload them with too many abilities).
    Thank you very much for pointing out what you are getting as the feel of the class, since it makes me aware that I goofed, since I don't want it to be minion based, beyond in the archetypes, I will take a look at fixing its ability progression, and adjust the levels where they get abilities, thanks

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    There's nothing wrong with a lot of these powers on their own. I like the capstone a lot, actually. It's just that they get too many of them, and some seem too powerful for the levels they are learned.

    Upon a second reading it looks like you do have a pretty clear focus for what you want each subclass to do. The core class abilities still feel kind of all over the place at times though and do step on the undead lord a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    There's nothing wrong with a lot of these powers on their own. I like the capstone a lot, actually. It's just that they get too many of them, and some seem too powerful for the levels they are learned.

    Upon a second reading it looks like you do have a pretty clear focus for what you want each subclass to do. The core class abilities still feel kind of all over the place at times though and do step on the undead lord a bit.
    I did some tweaking of the base class, and switched up undead lord to work a little bit differently, take a look at it now and tell me what you think

    I do have an idea for the second aspect of undead swarm, having it be a single undead with a cr equal to your proficiency modifier, with the benefits of undead thralls (just on it), but that might be a bit to powerful, the idea being to create an undead general to lead your swarm of undead, as you create your own, and take over others, or simply to have a swarm of creatures

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Now this looks almost like a playable class.

    For the most part it looks like it just needs playtesting and probably number tweaking (damage, number of minions, etc.) on the abilities (which involves a long time flipping through pages, comparing numbers for similar spells and abilities. So that'll be fun for you.)

    When balancing these abilities: Remember that you're a full caster class! Your strength is in your magic. If you give them powers that the player is always going to choose to use over their spells, then what's the point of giving them full caster progression? If you give them abilities that are super strong on their own PLUS full caster progression, why would anyone want to play any other full caster?

    The core class is much simpler, which is good. The separate spell lists for each sub class is different, but that's not really a bad thing. Bumping the subclass feature progression so you get one on 2, 10 and 18 (removing one of the powers) and aura of terror and deathly constitution on their own on 6 and 14 would make me feel more comfortable that this isn't overshadowing other classes. Either that or severely weaken some of the powers.

    Some specific notes:

    If you decide to go with the ability progression I suggested above, aura of terror being constant looks good. Probably give them an option to suppress it so it's not always on though.

    Undead Lord
    -In undead swarm: At 6th level you learn to use this ability in a different way, you may instead create one undead with total health equal to the total of the swarm you could summon.
    I kind of understand what you're getting at but the wording is very unclear. The ability seems difficult to pull off too (assuming I'm understanding it correctly). Making it something like "You can choose either your proficiency mod worth of X undead, or a single Y undead with the following bonuses" I think would be simpler and easier to understand.

    -Control undead: OK I can definitely tell this is the minion subclass XD I would suggest adding a bit about "if you use this ability again while you control some undead, you lose control of them and gain control of your new targets" just because it specifies 24 hours but recharges on a long rest. Otherwise it could allow "I control this guy right before bedtime! Ok, now I control this other guy first thing in the morning! Double zombie buddies!" shenanigans.

    -Dark healing: specify that minions can choose to allow you to hit them without having to make an attack roll. Maybe say "whenever you cast a spell that hits" just in case there are some bonus-action necrotic spells? I dunno if there are.

    -How long does enhance undead last?

    Plague Blade
    I'd put the proficiencies in their own separate heading called Bonus proficiencies, just to better parallel other subclasses that grant them.

    -Diseased blade: What happens when other people try to use your blood as a poison? I suggest specifying it's only usable by you.

    -Aura of disease: Very cool. Anti-synergy with aura of terror though.

    -Plague Touch: Typo in the title there. Later on you say benefactor when I think you mean recipient (the benefactor would be the person granting the benefit). The restrictions for healing that disease are... horrifying. I can see it being used in like a blackmail type scenario. Cool RP potential and good combat utility. But it would suck pretty hard if a player got infected with it. Maybe make the cure scale with the dread necromancer's level instead of requiring a straight up 8th level spell no matter what.

    Soul Caster
    -Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
    There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
    How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
    Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)

    -Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two sahrds, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.

    -Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.

    -Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.

    I notice that all of the dread necromancer's abilities are combat based. I haven't gone through the spell lists yet, but I personally really enjoy playing classes that can contribute and do cool, unique things in an adventuring or roleplaying setting while also pulling their weight in combat.

    Besides all that, I like it. You for sure will have to do a lot of number tweaking. I mean, I'm no expert on what damage, how minions, etc. are balanced at each level but I think you should go case-by-case through each of your abilities and do this. Just a good idea for any homebrew.
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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    Now this looks almost like a playable class.

    For the most part it looks like it just needs playtesting and probably number tweaking (damage, number of minions, etc.) on the abilities (which involves a long time flipping through pages, comparing numbers for similar spells and abilities. So that'll be fun for you.)

    When balancing these abilities: Remember that you're a full caster class! Your strength is in your magic. If you give them powers that the player is always going to choose to use over their spells, then what's the point of giving them full caster progression? If you give them abilities that are super strong on their own PLUS full caster progression, why would anyone want to play any other full caster?

    The core class is much simpler, which is good. The separate spell lists for each sub class is different, but that's not really a bad thing. Bumping the subclass feature progression so you get one on 2, 10 and 18 (removing one of the powers) and aura of terror and deathly constitution on their own on 6 and 14 would make me feel more comfortable that this isn't overshadowing other classes. Either that or severely weaken some of the powers.

    Some specific notes:

    If you decide to go with the ability progression I suggested above, aura of terror being constant looks good. Probably give them an option to suppress it so it's not always on though.

    Undead Lord
    -In undead swarm: At 6th level you learn to use this ability in a different way, you may instead create one undead with total health equal to the total of the swarm you could summon.
    I kind of understand what you're getting at but the wording is very unclear. The ability seems difficult to pull off too (assuming I'm understanding it correctly). Making it something like "You can choose either your proficiency mod worth of X undead, or a single Y undead with the following bonuses" I think would be simpler and easier to understand.

    -Control undead: OK I can definitely tell this is the minion subclass XD I would suggest adding a bit about "if you use this ability again while you control some undead, you lose control of them and gain control of your new targets" just because it specifies 24 hours but recharges on a long rest. Otherwise it could allow "I control this guy right before bedtime! Ok, now I control this other guy first thing in the morning! Double zombie buddies!" shenanigans.

    -Dark healing: specify that minions can choose to allow you to hit them without having to make an attack roll. Maybe say "whenever you cast a spell that hits" just in case there are some bonus-action necrotic spells? I dunno if there are.

    -How long does enhance undead last?

    Plague Blade
    I'd put the proficiencies in their own separate heading called Bonus proficiencies, just to better parallel other subclasses that grant them.

    -Diseased blade: What happens when other people try to use your blood as a poison? I suggest specifying it's only usable by you.

    -Aura of disease: Very cool. Anti-synergy with aura of terror though.

    -Plague Touch: Typo in the title there. Later on you say benefactor when I think you mean recipient (the benefactor would be the person granting the benefit). The restrictions for healing that disease are... horrifying. I can see it being used in like a blackmail type scenario. Cool RP potential and good combat utility. But it would suck pretty hard if a player got infected with it. Maybe make the cure scale with the dread necromancer's level instead of requiring a straight up 8th level spell no matter what.

    Soul Caster
    -Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
    There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
    How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
    Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)

    -Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two sahrds, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.

    -Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.

    -Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.

    I notice that all of the dread necromancer's abilities are combat based. I haven't gone through the spell lists yet, but I personally really enjoy playing classes that can contribute and do cool, unique things in an adventuring or roleplaying setting while also pulling their weight in combat.

    Besides all that, I like it. You for sure will have to do a lot of number tweaking. I mean, I'm no expert on what damage, how minions, etc. are balanced at each level but I think you should go case-by-case through each of your abilities and do this. Just a good idea for any homebrew.
    Thank you very much for your help, I will go through and fix what you pointed out, and I will definitely take a look at the progression you suggested, decided to take your suggestion for dropping one of the archetypes abilities as they each had one that was not strictly necessary for them to work, and adjusted the levels, I will take a look at the Soul caster stuff closer when I get a bit more time, but take a look at what I have got thus far, I think it looks much nicer, and the archetypes encapsulate their play style better

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post

    Soul Caster
    -Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
    There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
    How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
    Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)
    I took a look back through this and fixed some of the wording and clarified some details, as for the not taking damage, that is pulled from the sentinel raven of the raven queen warlock UA, which has the same feature
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    -Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two shards, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.
    It says that you can target multiple points with the shards, and I added half your dread necromancer level to the affect
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    -Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.
    I added a few details and made the bullets a little clearer hopefully it clears up your confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    -Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.
    This ability is gone, but the reason I had it cost a spell slot was so that there was a trade off for using a really powerful ability, thus why it was a sixth level slot


    And for non combat abilities, I am not sure if that is covered in the spells, I feel that it might be, but if you don't see that please let me know and I will come up with some exploration features, what those will be I'm not sure, but I will come up with something

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    My brother likes this
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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Made the following changes
    • Changed the weapon proficiency to line up with wizard better
    • Made the affect of aura of terror last for a number of rounds equal to half your dread necromancer levels rounded down
    • Deathly Constitution now grants immunity to poison damage, the poisoned condition, and resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the Undead Nature trait, but you appear to spells and features that detect undead as an undead creature
    • Fix the wording of Undead Swarm so that you can't stack up the undead that you create by adding a duration for the undead you create, 24 hours or until you use this feature again
    • Made plague blade a bonus action to activate
    • made it so you can activate/deactivate Aura of Disease as a bonus action
    • Added a specification that when your shadow kills a creature it doesn't create a new shadow
    • Tweaked the action economy for Power of the Soul, using one shadow shard now is a bonus action to use, using two shards is still an action
    • Adjusted the wording of Shadow Form to clarify confusion about the affect that it has

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    Feel like this class has dramatacly improved since i last saw it. Its great since i loved the Dread Necromancer in 3.5.

    You probably didnt notice but Control Undead is 6th level when according to the table and the other two subclasses its supposed to be 10th level feature.


    Im assuming your sig has the spell list for the class, I do have a question of why list separate spell list for subclasses. In the features you word it like its an entire different spell list, this is before im reading the spell list so i assume you just had them gain some bonus spells (but the undead lord doesn't get any weird). Ill edit this if its not appropriate after reading the spell list.


    Edit: So yeah Undead Lord is missing the 'access to X spell list' in his 2nd level feature. Is access just the ability to choose the spells? This is a very odd approach (and is unprecidented in 5e) though Im doubting weather or not it breaks anything. Probably not, its just odd.
    Last edited by Mortis_Elrod; 2017-09-29 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    I will fix that, and yeah its just that you can choose those spells, I felt that each archetype had a unique role and thus would tailor there spells accordingly, but since the class focuses on specific spells I felt splitting the lists by archetype fit better with the class as a whole,

    As for the control undead table I had not noticed that, and am realising that it presents a problem in terms of the CR that you can control, and am not sure exactly how to fix it, I can either drop the CR 4 or lower category, place it at level 20, or simply have the table start at CR 1 or lower and reach CR 4 or lower at 19, I like the 3 level progression

    Also sorry about the delay classes have started back up and so I've been busy

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Have you thought about going a Diablo II necromancer route with the subclasses instead?

    Maybe focus one on summons, one on curses, one on dark offensive magic?

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    I had not, and while I like that idea, I really like the subclasses that I have come up with, and may design others in the future, at least for the curses, since I feel that I have both summons and offensive dark magic covered

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Upon looking at the spells that other casters have for summoning minions I have decided to put control of CR 1 or lower at level 10 for control undead with the CR increasing by 1 every three levels, I think this is balanced out by the availability of undead that powerful at those levels and that the undead get a save to resist

    However if playtesting reveals this to be too strong I will adjust as necessary

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    This class used the best kind of necromamy thread necromancy
    Do you know why the songbird cries?it's because she is caged alone.
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    linklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortis_Elrod View Post
    So yeah Undead Lord is missing the 'access to X spell list' in his 2nd level feature. Is access just the ability to choose the spells? This is a very odd approach (and is unprecidented in 5e) though Im doubting weather or not it breaks anything. Probably not, its just odd.
    Fixed Undead Lord missing access to their spell list, do you think it would work better if I went with an expanded spell list and only went to 5th level, because that is the way I am thinking about the the spell lists as an extension of the expanded spell list feature of other classes archetypes

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Have you thought about going a Diablo II necromancer route with the subclasses instead?

    Maybe focus one on summons, one on curses, one on dark offensive magic?
    I will look at the Diablo II necromancer closer when I have time, but with what I have now what do you feel is missing to have something similar to its archetypes, so that I know what you are looking for so that I have a base for designing the archetypes when I get time

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    Post Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    At first glance it seems mostly pretty balanced, the only feature that seems overpowered is aura of terror.
    I would reccomend putting some limitations on aura of terror so that you can only use it an X number of times before you have to rest to use it again. And the fact that once a target fails the save they don't get to remake it causes this to be devastating too. It lasts much too long for them to not be able to remake the saving throw. Aura of terror needs some toning down, or else it will suffer some major abuse.

    My main problem with this class though is why would I pick dread necromancer over wizard? They have the same HP, proficiencies (aside from skills), spellcasting modifier, number of spell slots, number of prepared spells, ability score improvements and a relatively similar spell list.

    The only advantages of playing a dread necromancer I see are a longer list of skill proficiencies, the ability to change spell selections after a short-rest, and some extremely situational abilities (among the dead, deathly constitution, lichdom).

    Most of The archetypes are a little lacking too. The undead lord is kind of bland, it really only improves your capability of controlling and raising the dead, which is the classe's focus anyway so the archetype is kind of redundant. Plague blade is cool, but it relies on you entering melee with an opponent, which is bad considering that they only have a D6 health. Plague touch is the archetype's only useful feature and necrotic rot is cool flavor wise, but in truth, necrotic Rot is really only useful as a way to take care of re-occurring villains, which seems like a lousy way to influence the plot.

    The only reason I would play this class is if I wanted to be a soul caster. Their shadow familiar is awesome and shadow form is an amazing addition. Soul caster seems like an interesting and solid choice that I would totally pick. I think it would probably make a better wizard archetype though.

    Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if you can make it more different than the wizard? Otherwise, I would never play this class unless I was a soul caster.
    Last edited by Requilac; 2017-10-13 at 08:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    At first glance it seems mostly pretty balanced, the only feature that seems overpowered is aura of terror.
    I would reccomend putting some limitations on aura of terror so that you can only use it an X number of times before you have to rest to use it again. And the fact that once a target fails the save they don't get to remake it causes this to be devastating too. It lasts much too long for them to not be able to remake the saving throw. Aura of terror needs some toning down, or else it will suffer some major abuse.
    I made it so that they get a save when you are not in their line of sight

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    My main problem with this class though is why would I pick dread necromancer over wizard? They have the same HP, proficiencies (aside from skills), spellcasting modifier, number of spell slots, number of prepared spells, ability score improvements and a relatively similar spell list.

    The only advantages of playing a dread necromancer I see are a longer list of skill proficiencies, the ability to change spell selections after a short-rest, and some extremely situational abilities (among the dead, deathly constitution, lichdom).
    This is meant to feel a lot like a wizard as it is devised for those who didn't like the necromancy wizard arcane tradition, will look at raising the hit dice if enough people feel it is necessary, but I am wary of doing so. As for the abililities from the base class being very situational and utility that was done on purpose as much of the full casters power comes from their spells and archetype features, as a result I made the base class simply representative of moving towards becoming an lich and the transitions ones body would undergo

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    Most of The archetypes are a little lacking too. The undead lord is kind of bland, it really only improves your capability of controlling and raising the dead, which is the classe's focus anyway so the archetype is kind of redundant.
    As I stated above the base class is not built around controlling undead its abilities are about becoming undead, I would like to know which abilities you feel point towards controlling undead so that I can tweak or remove them as that is not the base classes goal, and the control and empowerment of undead is the focus of the undead lord

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    Plague blade is cool, but it relies on you entering melee with an opponent, which is bad considering that they only have a D6 health. Plague touch is the archetype's only useful feature and necrotic rot is cool flavor wise, but in truth, necrotic Rot is really only useful as a way to take care of re-occurring villains, which seems like a lousy way to influence the plot.
    I get what you are saying about not wanting to go into melee with a d6 health, which would be fixed with raising the hit dice, or giving them something to boost their AC which I don't really have a problem with doing, what I don't understand is your assertion that the only useful ability is plague touch, when their other abilities are designed to allow them to better work in melee combat with access to armor and martial weapons, diseased blade helps your melee attacks be more effective, I can see either removing having to damage yourself to activate its affect or adding additional damage dealt by the attack under its affect, and Aura of Disease gives you passive damage while in melee range so I don't see how those are useless to a melee centric archetype

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    The only reason I would play this class is if I wanted to be a soul caster. Their shadow familiar is awesome and shadow form is an amazing addition. Soul caster seems like an interesting and solid choice that I would totally pick. I think it would probably make a better wizard archetype though.

    Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if you can make it more different than the wizard? Otherwise, I would never play this class unless I was a soul caster.
    I am glad that you like the Soul caster, however as the purpose of this class is to fill the necromancer role better then the wizard necromancy school does the only reason I would turn this into a wizard archetype would be to replace the necromancy school, but then it would be neglecting the other three branches of necromancy, thus the purpose of this class and its archetypes, you have the undead lord, the summoner of undead minions, the Plague blade, the creater of diseases and spreader of plagues, and the soul caster, the user of powerful dark magic to obliterate their foes

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama513 View Post
    I will look at the Diablo II necromancer closer when I have time, but with what I have now what do you feel is missing to have something similar to its archetypes, so that I know what you are looking for so that I have a base for designing the archetypes when I get time
    One thing that I remember as very cool about diablo 2 (and now 3) necromancer was that their armor would always sport skulls, bones, etc.

    If you're not set on the Dread Necromancer's armor proficiencies, I think giving them similar armor proficiency (with same restrictions) as druids have would be really cool. Hide armor especially made from bones and assorted pieces of leather would paint quite sinister and dreadful image.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-10-14 at 05:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    One thing that I remember as very cool about diablo 2 (and now 3) necromancer was that their armor would always sport skulls, bones, etc.

    If you're not set on the Dread Necromancer's armor proficiencies, I think giving them similar armor proficiency (with same restrictions) as druids have would be really cool. Hide armor especially made from bones and assorted pieces of leather would paint quite sinister and dreadful image.
    Just checking that I understand your suggestion, its to give them light armor but no metal armors correct, or was it the full druid spread, and with that change what should I do for the plague blade

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