The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign

[Honest Tiefling]

Everyone else was delightfully mad or sardonic or both. As for the thieves' guild, I feel like they were appropriate. I mean, how else would you expect a den of thieves to behave? Sure, I didn't like them, but I also didn't expect to.

Like professionals, not morons who keep sexually harassing each other. No wonder the thieves we send into the city die by the droves, they were too busy arguing with each other to learn how to sneak around. Does the Dragonborn gotta neuter some people?

[Keltest]

Like professionals, not morons who keep sexually harassing each other. No wonder the thieves we send into the city die by the droves, they were too busy arguing with each other to learn how to sneak around. Does the Dragonborn gotta neuter some people?

They aren't professionals though, at least not in the way they are in Oblivion. Theyre a collection of like minded people who bond together over mutual interest and mutual persecution. The guild is significantly more like a third party to most of the thieves than it is in Oblivion.

[Honest Tiefling]

They aren't professionals though, at least not in the way they are in Oblivion. Theyre a collection of like minded people who bond together over mutual interest and mutual persecution. The guild is significantly more like a third party to most of the thieves than it is in Oblivion.

That's correct, except I don't see bonding. I see them constantly harassing each other over their sex lives. Especially given that Sapphire has hints of uh...Rather unpleasant past. That's the opposite of bonding! I feel like the dialog they say when you walk past and the storyline didn't quite line up right.

[Keltest]

That's correct, except I don't see bonding. I see them constantly harassing each other over their sex lives. Especially given that Sapphire has hints of uh...Rather unpleasant past. That's the opposite of bonding! I feel like the dialog they say when you walk past and the storyline didn't quite line up right.

Either your game is bugged in some way or you are grossly exaggerating what is going on. There isn't a constant state of sexual harassment going on, most of the guildmembers just engage in idle banter.

And there aren't that many lady thieves to begin with, at least in the cistern.

[Honest Tiefling]

Either your game is bugged in some way or you are grossly exaggerating what is going on. There isn't a constant state of sexual harassment going on, most of the guildmembers just engage in idle banter.

That's a possibility, Byrnjolf kept telling me he was busy and would have work for me later...When I'm the guildmaster. Don't make me send the Dark Brotherhood after you. The bestiality comment was directed at a male, so the lack of female thieves wasn't a concern. Was that guy (I forget which one) supposed to hit on Sapphire REPEATEDLY?

Kinda makes me wonder if that playthough was buggy.

[Spore]

. Was that guy (I forget which one) supposed to hit on Sapphire REPEATEDLY?

Kinda makes me wonder if that playthough was buggy.

I think so. The vibe I got from Sapphire is that she really does not like flirting and that she shuts down any attempt. So probably a loop or something.

[veti]

Was that guy (I forget which one) supposed to hit on Sapphire REPEATEDLY?

There are only so many lines of dialogue recorded. If you persist in going near the same people again and again, you're gonna hear a lot of repetition.
"mutter mutter arrow to the knee"
"You know what's wrong with Skyrim nowadays?"
"... but worms, writhing in the filth of our own corruption..."

And yes, that dialogue will keep being repeated indefinitely, unless you can figure out some way to stop it.

[Triaxx]

Head to Solstheim with your guildmaster and chat with the Blacksmith.

[Anteros]

Random question. Has anyone tried the skyblivion or skywind mods? How complete are they? Are they worth downloading and playing around in?

I've been wanting to play the older games again, but I'm wondering if I should just wait for these mods. I can't find anything definitive when I google. Short of downloading them and trying myself I guess.

[Rynjin]

They're not in a payable state, last I checked. Skyblivion's overworld map is complete, but none of the quests or game mechanics besides movement and horses are implemented yet.

[Anteros]

They're not in a payable state, last I checked. Skyblivion's overworld map is complete, but none of the quests or game mechanics besides movement and horses are implemented yet.

Oh. That's lame. I thought I had seen a few pages back where someone said one of them was done. Are there any other full game mods for Skyrim out yet? Enderal was excellent (despite the plot being weak) but it's the only one I've played.

[Triaxx]

Open Morrowind is reasonably playable. I'm waiting for the next major release before jumping in, but it's worth a look. There's always Nehrim, the Oblivion edition of Endreal. I hated it, but that's me.

Haven't heard of anything else though. I assume you've done Falskaar?

[Anteros]

Open Morrowind is reasonably playable. I'm waiting for the next major release before jumping in, but it's worth a look. There's always Nehrim, the Oblivion edition of Endreal. I hated it, but that's me.

Haven't heard of anything else though. I assume you've done Falskaar?

No. I'll Google it and check it out. I haven't touched Skyrim outside of playing Enderal for probably 5 years or so.

[Triaxx]

Falskaar

Have you played Skyrim with Enai Siaion's mods? Start with Ordinator and work from there.

[Inarius]

Well one plus side to TES 6 being a long way off is that Skywind and Skyblivion will probably actually release in a decent state before TES 6 comes out.

[veti]

Well one plus side to TES 6 being a long way off is that Skywind and Skyblivion will probably actually release in a decent state before TES 6 comes out.

It's theoretically possible. But I wouldn't go as far as "probably".

The whole project relies on enthusiasm. It's easy to be enthusiastic when you're at the initial, madly creative stage, with ideas and plans all bubbling through your brain like a kid blowing through a straw. It's hard to sustain that enthusiasm through countless repetitive, processor-intensive hours of filling in land, structures and areas that are already designed, where your brief is to be as faithful (uncreative) as possible to the original. It gets even harder when you get to recreating quests, and you realise that half the ideas you had back at stage one don't work, and half the quests just can't be coded at all, without changes, in this engine, so you have to rewrite bits of them, which you hadn't realised and budgeted for, and the bit of dungeon that you crafted so painstakingly is going to have to be done again, and this little quest that you promised to the (also unpaid) testers this week is going to take you a month to finish, and you'll have to document the changes you made separately. And then you have to map and plot dialogue for every possible branch the quest can take. And that's before anyone has even started to record all that dialogue.

It's the kind of project calculated to make you realise why there are professionals who do these things - as in, whole teams of highly skilled people who are paid to work, forty hours a week, for years on end. And even they will generally lose interest before it's done, which is one reason why it gets released unfinished.

[Ogremindes]

So, I'm about to start up a new game of Skyrim (SE), and so, as I'm preparing my mod list, I would like to ask if anyone has any cool mod suggestions. I'll type up what I have so far soon, but suffice to say for now that the core of my list is Enai Siaion's overhauls (Ordinator et al), Chesko's survival mods (Frostfall amongst others), and various mods by Arthmoor (Unofficial Patch, Live Another Life etc.).

What I look for in a mod is something that's immersive, well integrated (I like a mod that could be part of the base game if I didn't know better), balanced, and performant (I don't have much performance to spare).

Edit: Before I log out for the night, here's my mod list so far:

Spoiler: List of Mods

Show

A Quality World Map - 9.0.1 A Quality World Map - Vivid with Flat Roads
A Quality World Map - A Quality World Map - Clear Map Skies
Alternate Start - Live Another Life - Alternate Start - Live Another Life
Amazing Follower Tweaks SE - AFT_NoDances
Amazing Follower Tweaks SE - Amazing Follower Tweaks
Apocalypse - Magic of Skyrim - Apocalypse - Ordinator Compatibility Patch WHY DO I HAVE TO CHANGE THE NAME
Apocalypse - Magic of Skyrim - Apocalypse v945
Ars Metallica - Smithing Enhancement - Ars Metallica - Smithing Enhancement
Audio Overhaul for Skyrim SE - Audio Overhaul Skyrim All-In-One Installer
Aurora - Standing Stones of Skyrim - Aurora v307
Belt-Fastened Quivers - Belt-Fastened Quivers 1.3 SE
Campfire - Complete Camping System - Campfire 1.11SE Release
Castle Volkihar Rebuilt - Castle Volkihar Rebuilt
Cloaks of Skyrim - Cloaks of Skyrim SSE - v1.2.1
Cutting Room Floor - Cutting Room Floor
EasierRider's Dungeon Pack - EasierRider's Dungeon Pack SSE v1.3
FallrimTools - Script cleaner and more - FallrimTools 2.9.4 (beta)
Forgotten Dungeons (SSE) - Forgotten DungeonsSSE
Frostfall - Hypothermia Camping Survival - Frostfall 3.4.1 SE Release
Hearthfire Display Case Fix by Krucify - main
Hunterborn SE - Hunterborn
Immersive Armors - Immersive Armors 8.1 SSE Test
Immersive Citizens - AI Overhaul
Immersive Patrols SE - Immersive Patrols SE
Immersive Upgrade Leveled Items - ImmersiveUpgradeLeveledItems_1.0.2.7z
Imperious - Races of Skyrim - Imperious v724
iNeed - Food Water and Sleep - iNeed v1_83
Lore-Based Loading Screens - Lore-Based Loading Screens 1.2
Moonlight Tales Special Edition - Werewolf and Werebear Overhaul - Moonlight Tales SE 1_35
Non-Automatic Skill Books - NASB
Not So Fast - Mage Guild - NotSoFast-MageGuildV14
Not So Fast - Main Quest - NotSoFast-MainQuestV16
Ordinator - Perks of Skyrim - Ordinator v926
Ordinator - Perks of Skyrim - Thief Skills Rebalance for Ordinator
Point The Way - Point The Way
Realistic Lighting Overhaul (RLO) SSE All-In-One Installer
Relationship Dialogue Overhaul - RDO SE - RDO - AFT Patch Final
Relationship Dialogue Overhaul - RDO SE - RDO Patches Final
Relationship Dialogue Overhaul - RDO SE - Relationship Dialogue Overhaul - RDO Final
Sacrosanct - Vampires of Skyrim - Sacrosanct v405
Slower Companions Advancement Remade
Smilodon - Combat of Skyrim - Smilodon v200
Summermyst - Enchantments of Skyrim - Summermyst v304
The Paarthurnax Dilemma - The Paarthurnax Dilemma
Thunderchild - Epic Shouts and Immersion - Thunderchild v411
True Storms Special Edition - Thunder Rain and Weather Redone - True Storms Special Edition v1.01
Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch - Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch
VioLens - A Killmove Mod SE - VioLens - A Killmove Mod SE 2.0
Wearable Lanterns - Wearable Lanterns 4.0.3 Release
Wet and Cold - Wet and Cold v2_15

[Ogremindes]

I don't suppose anyone's seen a slower progression mod for the Thieves' Guild for SSE?

[The_Jackal]

I don't suppose anyone's seen a slower progression mod for the Thieves' Guild for SSE?

What are you trying to accomplish? Require more radiant missions to unlock the perks for re-establishing the guild in various holds?

[Ogremindes]

Requiring doing some radiant missions before getting new plot missions where it makes sense. It's not a big deal, as unlike the Companions and College it doesn't feel jarring.

[Enixon]

Yes, verisimilitude refers to something having the appearance of reality (essentially fitting in well with its own setting).

Though in my opinion it seems like more often it's used to mean "I don't like this fantasy thing in this fantasy setting but want to give my opinion some kind of moral high ground so I'll use the V word to present my opinion as objective fact and to let me sneer down my nose at the uncultured swine that point out the Grand Canyon sized hole in my pet theory as to why -this- fantasy thing is an abomination but -this- other equaly unlikely fantasy thing is perfectly acceptable"

[Temotei]

Though in my opinion it seems like more often it's used to mean "I don't like this fantasy thing in this fantasy setting but want to give my opinion some kind of moral high ground so I'll use the V word to present my opinion as objective fact and to let me sneer down my nose at the uncultured swine that point out the Grand Canyon sized hole in my pet theory as to why -this- fantasy thing is an abomination but -this- other equaly unlikely fantasy thing is perfectly acceptable"

Sounds like a problem with its use, not the word itself.

[The_Jackal]

Sounds like a problem with its use, not the word itself.

Well, the problem really crops up when you expose any fantasy or science fiction setting to close scrutiny and apply reason. They just fall apart, because a good story doesn't flesh out all those details, they just distract you from them, and a game doesn't have the luxury of foregoing details, because in many ways, details are what makes a game immersive and deep.

Take Star Wars. In particular, look at how Yoda and Obi Wan talk about Vader and his journey to the dark side. They don't talk specifics. They don't say what he did, they just say that he was seduced by the Dark Side. No kind of analysis on what might have motivated him to break from the Jedi, or what Ben or Yoda might have tried to fight back. But the fact is, that this was exposition, and any backstory on what led to now just slows down the plot, because 'show don't tell'. The minute you start to explain things, the cart leaves the rails, ie: midichlorians.

An Elder Scrolls game doesn't work like that. Those books that litter the bookshelves have words in them, so that's what the writers use to do their exposition on backstory, and lots of the in-game story dump is caught up in tutorial, faux interaction, or on-ramps for missions. And because you have some agency in teasing out the story, you don't feel quite like you're just being bludgeoned with the plot.

[veti]

Well, the problem really crops up when you expose any fantasy or science fiction setting to close scrutiny and apply reason. They just fall apart, because a good story doesn't flesh out all those details, they just distract you from them, and a game doesn't have the luxury of foregoing details, because in many ways, details are what makes a game immersive and deep.

A good story doesn't flesh out all those details, but it does leave room for them. We don't need to be introduced to farmers and see them growing food; but if the story paints a picture of a blighted desert landscape isolated from civilisation and patrolled by inhuman raiders (Star Wars, I'm looking at you), then - it starts to become a pressing question.

[factotum]

We don't need to be introduced to farmers and see them growing food; but if the story paints a picture of a blighted desert landscape isolated from civilisation and patrolled by inhuman raiders (Star Wars, I'm looking at you), then - it starts to become a pressing question.

The farmers in Star Wars are explicitly referred to as "moisture farmers", which kind of implies they produce water rather than crops?

[Triaxx]

Not to mention as an intergalactic society with FTL travel and clean energy, you can have entire world's dedicated to farming food, and have it be no more difficult to move around than trucking Twinkies.

[The_Jackal]

A good story doesn't flesh out all those details, but it does leave room for them. We don't need to be introduced to farmers and see them growing food; but if the story paints a picture of a blighted desert landscape isolated from civilisation and patrolled by inhuman raiders (Star Wars, I'm looking at you), then - it starts to become a pressing question.

Sure, but you can't really get away with that in a big sandbox that's trying to present an immersive experience. Of course, you don't get nearly enough farms to actually satisfy anything like realism, but then you also have, like, one latrine in the entire country. Riften and the College of Winterhold have sewer systems (of a sort), but no facilities to connect to them.

The farmers in Star Wars are explicitly referred to as "moisture farmers", which kind of implies they produce water rather than crops?

My assumption is they use something like a high-tech dew trap to capture moisture, with which they can grow crops (as well as get drinking water). Again, this is a concept that crumbles under scrutiny. Why would anyone choose to go into business farming in a place with no access to water? No answer, and no one is really expected to ask the question.

Not to mention as an intergalactic society with FTL travel and clean energy, you can have entire world's dedicated to farming food, and have it be no more difficult to move around than trucking Twinkies.

Yes. At the levels of technology available in Star Wars, there's no reason farming shouldn't be entirely mechanized, if food production isn't completely synthetic.

[factotum]

Why would anyone choose to go into business farming in a place with no access to water?

Tatooine is supposed to be a desert planet, so water generally is scarce there; so, as long as you want to live on the planet *at all*, you have to do stuff like that. Of course, this doesn't explain where the oxygen in the atmosphere comes from (Frank Herbert's "Dune" has a similar problem).

[The_Jackal]

Tatooine is supposed to be a desert planet, so water generally is scarce there; so, as long as you want to live on the planet *at all*, you have to do stuff like that. Of course, this doesn't explain where the oxygen in the atmosphere comes from (Frank Herbert's "Dune" has a similar problem).

Which would beg the question, what's so expensive on a sand world to warrant people trying to survive there? At least Dune answers this. Star Wars just blows right past it.

[Talion]

Which would beg the question, what's so expensive on a sand world to warrant people trying to survive there? At least Dune answers this. Star Wars just blows right past it.

Per the old Droidworks video game, Tatooine did at least have at least one Phrik (a borderline indestructible material) mine. Indestructible enough to survive a planetary explosion at least. Other than that though there's not much to be had that hasn't been picked clean over the thousands of years of the saga. So for all intents and purposes its economy runs on the black market and gambling, and whatever it takes to support that without the clients drawing unwanted attention to themselves. That and self-sufficient loners who want to be left alone and/or are too poor to make it off world. Which could be literally any other backwater planet with even a hint more water or suitability for any form of life. Like..Hoth.