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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default A list of 30 core spell exploits

    This is a complete list of what in my opinion are some of the spells with the most exploitable potential, a few of which are relatively new and unknown from my searches, others more so, but I deliberately excluded some things which everyone knows about. If anyone can think of original applications with other spells and magical abilities, you're welcome to help me expand this list. I'll sort them out by their potency:

    Completely gamebreaking

    Leomund's Impregnable Fortress ( Leomund's Tiny Hut ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Leomund's Impregnable Fortress ( Leomund's Tiny Hut ) - It's a level 3 spell which takes 1 minute to cast and lasts 8 hours, and the dome prevents all creatures, objects and spells outside of it from passing, but you, any creature and object inside the area at the time of it's creation can pass through freely. Whether you cast that around you and some people during combat, or much more preferably, cast it in safety in a place you can hunker up in on an upcoming battle zone stealthily while drawing enemies there, you could now make ranged attacks ( Objects which are on you can pass freely ) or even melee attacks ( Swinging your weapon through the barrier ) at any creature surrounding the barrier, while they and any other object outside nor spells can get through. You're probably only going to have trouble with beings which can teleport ( Oh wait, you don't. Cast Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum or Forbiddance inside too ). You could block passages completely for 8 hours by casting the hut in front of them, as long as you stay inside ( Some superiority to any other blocking spell in existence, taking no damage nor spell effects, utterly impassable without teleportation ), prevent others from reaching a certain object when casting it around you, use it to block rivers and flood them while standing on the bank or even in the river itself, seeing as the flow will be diverted from you, or shield yourself from unlimited collapse damage if something falls on you within a 1 minute limit, even if it was a whole mountain. A potent combination is along with Arcane Gate. Create a portal inside the hut and the other portal near your enemies, and blindly or using any divination sensor, shoot volleys at your enemies through it. Even once they determine their source, due to the hut encompassing you and the first portal, they cannot enter the area.


    Unwilling teleport ( Teleportation Circle ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You create a 10-foot diameter shimmering portal within a circle, and any creature entering it instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination circle. Good thing it doesn't have to be willing. You could try taking the time to cast it on a creature's ground during combat or take some time while stealthed or out of detection to cast it somewhere in enemy territory or battle scene,then quickly grab a creature with a spell or try pushing it inside the circle at the start of combat, or hide the portal with something such as an illusion and so forth and lure the target into it. Make that destination circle upon an extremely high cliff or pillar with some kind of pressure trap to make whoever appears there next time fall off, or inside an adamantine cell, or a nasty plane, or within any center of civilization where the creature will immediately be attacked.


    Holy supernova ( Forbiddance ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Deal 5d10 necrotic or radiant damage ( Continually to any create beginning it's turn there apparently ) to any celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, or undead within a range of 40,000 square feet of floor space and up to 30 feet height above it that enters the area for the first time or start their turn there so just cast it 40,000 feet flat/30 feet height from a concentration of these begins and they're all completely wiped out. And while multiple spells can't overlap, you could for example cast it in front of you to damage an incoming horde or monster and for 40,000 feet and 30 feet height ahead, then move back, let monsters on the edge cross it, and then cast it again only reaching up to the edge of the first warded area, but still dealing them damage as they enter, and rinse and repeat. Or alternatively move to more elevated ground and cast again.


    Planeshape ( Mirage Arcane/Illusory Reality ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    The powers of Mirage Arcane ( 1 square mile effect/Sight range ) are evident on their own, you could make a whole city go insane or trip and harm themselves until the illusion is dispelled, but with Illusory Reality of the Illusion Wizard ( 1 bonus action, makes object real for 1 minute, but doesn't need recharge, so can be renewed indefinitely with a bonus action ), and specifically since Mirage Arcane states you can add structures where none are present, you could encase a 1 mile area with an Adamantine cage for as long as you can stick around to maintain Illusory Reality over the 10-day period of Mirage Arcane. You could make tiny adamantine cells to eventually suffocate hundreds or thousands of creatures when the air inside their tiny prison begins to run out. Since there is no size limit to either, you could make 1 mile high ramps or staircases You could make a giant prism to focus sunbeams on somewhere. And so forth.


    Symbolism ( Symbol ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Requires no concentration, lasts until dispelled, can be as small as you'd like but no larger than 10 feet, triggered by almost anything you want, and has the Death ability to cause 10d10 necrotic damage or half as much on a failed save. As long as you have enough gold you could create dozens of those on any area or objects, you can completely destroy any creature that activates it unless it's immune to necrotic damage. , it might work by inscribing it in some lair surface or near an object by plane-shifting there with non-detection or Greater Invisibility and so forth out of the main target's sight, then returning, resting and doing this for a couple of days, ( Not reason for most target to inspect every single wall or box in their lair all the time especially if you arrive to some side chamber or hall with non-detection ), and then draw them towards it. A combination with an Arcane Gate could work too.


    Abusive Regeneration ( Regeneration ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Quite literal, amusingly enough, not recommended for good-aligned characters. Basically what happened here is that WOTC forgot a rule they've been using for spells like Creation and so on, which is to never, ever let an enterprising mage have the ability to create something out of nothing. They thought nothing could go wrong with body members, but oh boy were they ever so wrong. Basically this spell has no component costs, which means you could capture pretty much any creature with potentially valuable flesh or body parts ( Even an Ox, or something like a Wyvern for it's tail, even Golems or Giants, or any low, medium or even high CR creature you captured which has valuable body members ), cast regeneration on them, and start chopping for an hour with 2 minute breaks.

    The Spice Must Flow ( Plant Growth ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    This is a more potential exploit, it permanently makes all normal plants in a 100-foot radius "thick" and "overgrown". So basically the idea is you buy something like a boatload of Saffron or it's flowers, or any other precious herb for that matter, place it in a clean 100-foot radius and increase your yield, selling far more back than what you bought. Depending on how the spell is interpreted you might even be able to do something like cut the herbs in half, sell the other half, and cast Plant Growth on it again to make them become thick and overgrown again regardless, and rinse and repeat. Either way will work though.

    Contingent Knowledge ( Contingency ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Since the spell will activate under any circumstance you describe, you could choose any event or action, anywhere that you'd like to know about when it happens, and this will inform you.


    Major Alteration ( Alter Self ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Extremely cheesy. So, since Alter Self is transmutation ( Actually affecting the matter it interacts with or reality, unlike Illusion such as Disguise Self, as evidenced by Aquatic Adaption ), then according to the "Change Appearance" option, your limitations are not being able to acquire the characteristics of a different race, you can't appear as a creature of a different size ( But nothing about changing your own size ), and that your "basic shape" ( Subject to DM interpretation, hence the biggest cheese inhibitor, although some would say contradictory to the spell itself ) stays the same, while you can "decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any." So given both what the allowances and prohibitions say about changing your height, you could make myself 1 feet taller or shorter, 5 feet, 5000 feet, you could have an hair length of infinity or a quantizillion quantizillions, instantly destroying the universe through the resulting mass or the biggest RAW killer so far since it would not depend on any interpretation of basic shape or size - Weight. You can decide that your mass weighs as much as the equivalent mass of helium I.E 4.002602 u ± 0.000002 u, or that you weight is a ton, or a quantrillion quantrillion ( etc. ) tons thereby forming a black hole instantly, and so on.


    Omnipotent Caster ( Sight range spells ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    I have recently discovered that you do not need to be within line of sight or within range to maintain concentration on a spell, which means you could use an ability like Find Familiar, Gaze of Two Minds and so forth in order to cast spells like Tsunami and Storm of Vengeance at any location your familiar or creature can see. You could also use it with Scrying, Clairvoyance and so forth despite being concentration. As soon as you cast the Sight spell, the concentration on your Scrying for instance would break, but the second spell's concentration will go on.


    Significant Benefit

    Size Queen
    ( Enlarge/Reduce ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You could use enlarge to block a creature from entering somewhere, such as an hallway which can fit it, but a doorway that can't, Or a dragon which is suddenly going to have trouble entering some tunnel or area of his cavern. Since there's no limit to the objects you can target, you could reduce entire houses or castles, crushing their inhabitants. You could also reduce a creature's size, lure it into a confined space too small for his normal form, and then when he attempts to return to normal size, he will be crushed as well. You could extend bridges, you could reduce something and throw it into a creature's maw, there is no limit to the things you can do with this spell. Using the Reduce ability, you could also make yourself light enough to be carried by Mage Hand if you're a Small creature, and with Spell Mastery, you could that perpetually if you don't want to spend a spell slot on something like fly or it's not enough for some reason.


    Fantastic Force ( Phantasmal Force ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    One of the best illusion spells around. Make targets fall down into chasms or walk into hazards. Make their deity or important figure appear to them and give them any order you want. Have particularly devout or obedient creature be told by their deity or leader that they have failed him and must committ suicide to avoid being punished in the Planes.


    Extradimensional Tarzan ( Rope Trick ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Quickly disappear from any dangerous situation. Reach your hand out through the opening after pulling the rope up or descend a little bit to make an attack or spell, then quickly retract yourself back inside.


    Tenser's Machinations ( Tenser's Floating Disk ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Have someone else with flight cast it and then it will carry a few people through the air, use it to construct a flying machine, or put a large boulder to it, take it as high up to the sky as possible and drop it on your enemies.


    Economic Divination
    ( Divination ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    A truthful reply from a deity? Ask a deity of trade about value increases in poducts or worthy investments. Ask a deity of luck about the results of a gambling match such as a horse race, cards or a fight.


    Otiluke's Greater Sphere ( Wall of Force ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Can be cast around any creature as a sphere for what is essentially Otiluke's Resilient Sphere for 10 minutes and without any of the disadvantages to the other spell.


    Illusory World ( Programmed Illusion ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Since it lasts until dispelled, requires no concentration, re-activates after 10 minutes, and can be cast infinitely, you could fill the entire world with your illusions eventually, for whichever purpose you could think of.


    Plant Hurl ( Transport Via Plants) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Same trick as teleportation circle potentially, but faster.


    Legions of the Dead ( Finger of Death ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Do you like an endless zombie armies? I do.


    Gravitational Slam
    ( Reverse Gravity ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    There is no size limit. You could lift up and crash a Tarrasque. You could lift up the heaviest object possible and have it fall down within the zone.


    Simulacrum Pawn
    ( Simulacrum ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Apart from the obvious uses, you could use this to capture, then kill or dispose of any humanoid figure in the world and replace him with your pawn with all of it's statistics. BBEG had a change of mind. He works for you now.


    Summon Swapper ( Polymorph/True Polymorph ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You can use this on any summoned creature to turn them into a beast of equivalent CR or lower, such as Giant Bats or Owls for riding, or for a certain time, under some conditions, into any creature with equivalent CR using True Polymorph.

    Terrorism ( Teleport ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Teleport a gunpowder barrel or any other exploding material with a burning string or a box of acid into an enemy lair, or teleport your conjured or controlled beings into enemy lairs, or an object launched with high level catapult, or use multiple Cordons of Arrows, or a Delayed Fireball bead.


    Minimus Infiltration ( Imprisonment ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Although it may not seem like it on first glance, "Imprisonment's" Minimus Containment is the best infiltration tool possible, as long as you have an inside agent, when cast on yourself. As long as it is hidden in so much as a pouch, a pocket, within clothes, even worn loosely covered and not closely inspect, it allows you to pass unnoticed through Truesight, divination sensors, even Detect Magic if the gem is imbured with Nystul's Magic Aura, which lets you infiltrate the most guarded of strongholds ( Including those warded against teleportation and planar travel ), as long as you have controlled or dominated a certain creature allowed inside ( Such as a Devil with say Planar Binding ) and let him carry the gem. Upon arrival at the exact spot you seek to infiltrate, you can specify it as the condition under which the spell will end, and you will appear there.


    Flood ( Arcane Gate ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Create it on a riverbed or even sea floor near shore and another portal where you would like to flood an area.


    Expulsion ( Maze ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Maze a target, and then Wish a Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum ( "Planar travel is blocked within the warded area." ) or even more grandiose, Forbiddance, both of which could pretty much cover entire battle maps and further than that. Which would basically expel any creature with no saving throw to either a deliberately non-warded area of your choosing or a very far distance away ( As a house rule ), or the target would remain stuck in the Maze. If you're fighting someone on a Demiplane and you do that, he has nowhere to go. Maybe he appears in the Astral Sea. Or if you're going through a dungeon or very deep cavern and doing your best to collapse/occupy the space ( with anything ) of everywhere you've passed, then do it in the boss's lair. He could end up being expelled all the way to the beginning for the nearest unoccupied space or even up to the surface from within some extremely deep singular cavern.


    Moderate Benefit

    Perpetual Levitation ( Levitate/Spell Mastery ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Lift up a 500 pounds object and change it's altitude 20 feet downward on a target. With spell mastery or other Levitate at will abilities, you can then end concentration and keep doing it perpetually, stacking objects on the target or hitting him with the same thing. You could quickly clear up rubble or build anything you want from surrounding objects. Create perpetual motion machines by moving heavy objects up and down repeatedly against some kind of wheel or turbine to generate infinite motion energy.

    Here and Gone ( Misty Step/Spell Mastery ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Teleport 30 feet at will during combat as a bonus action, and move by constantly teleporting outside of it.


    Undead Entourage ( Animate Dead ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Equip your undead with armor and weapons. Employ undead guards. Use them as a meatshield by surrounding you and holding shields. Have them take watches while you're resting. Have them carry you in a cart while you're resting to reach somewhere.


    March of the Ents ( Awaken ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    8 hours casting and charmed for 30 days? You could have up to 56 Trees marching with you for about 2 days if you have enough gold to do this multiple times.


    Undead proxies ( Create Undead ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    If you create two wights, they can use their Life Drain to control up to 24 zombies.


    Defensive Forcecage ( Forcecage ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You could cast it on yourself instead to become unharmed for an hour.


    They'll Take Care Of It
    ( Planeshift ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Banish creatures to the Elemental Chaos, Evil creatures to Mount Celestia, or good creatures to the Abyss.


    Offensive Sequester ( Sequester ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Depending on your DM's interpretation of "Object", you could render entire buildings invisible, such that you can view their occupants from outside and the occupants become disoriented, unable to navigate inside as they can see nothing, or make a favored trap invisible, or a thrown weapon invisible for stealth attacks and harder dodging for enemies.


    Minor Benefit

    Defeaning Onslaught ( Magic Mouth ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You can cast this at any object, no concentration, infinite duration, and it can repeat your messages, in your voice and at the volume at which you spoke. All you need to do is scream as hard as you can into any unlimited number of objects, possibly increasing your volume such as with thaumaturgy or shapechanging into a creature with much louder volume, and use this to completely deafen any number of enemies. You could even cast it on a grain of sand or something small and throw it or put it into a creature's ear to deafen it permanently until it can get it out.


    Farmer's Champion ( Plant Growth ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Lend your services to farmers for quick gold.


    Mud Box ( Transmute Rock ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Bring along a lot of mud to you to essentially have 40-foot cube area of stone where you want it. Or turn ceilings and floor into mud to make your enemies fall down and crash.


    Arcane Volley
    ( Arcane Gate ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    You could make ranged attacks against creatures from one side of the portal.

    Drawmij's Tracker ( Drawmij's Instant Summons ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Most useful for tracking down a creature carrying the item. Not a divination spell, so can locate a lot of creatures who couldn't otherwise be located.

    Stone Grasp ( Stone Shape ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    Good for sprouting spikes on enemy ground or grounding their legs in stone.


    Illusory Discord
    ( Illusory Script ) -
    Spoiler: Spoilers
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    This works against any species that may communicate through writing and whose message you might intercept or quickly get a hold of, along with some decent forgery skills. If you have the time, create a forgery of the message, but add a subtle insult or sedition to it somewhere along the lines. If on short time, then incorporate it to the existing paper by making it seem hidden somewhere, perhaps even bold certain letters which form the insult. Cast "Illusory Script" and designate yourself, as well as every other creature, to see the writing as normal, except for the deliverer who then becomes "all others" save for the creatures you designated. To him, cause the writing to be an "entirely different message", which is in fact the original paper without the insult or sedition interjected in place of one of the words. For good measure, cast "Nystul's Magic Aura" on it to make it appear non-magical. Now when the deliverer next insects his message, he will notice no change. Everyone else however, especially the recipient, will see the insult. To everyone else it will then seem like the deliverer is playing dumb when claiming there is nothing of the sort there, and most certainly if the insult was hidden cleverly such as by underlining or bolding letters, yet enough to be discovered, and the deliverer then tries to claim that this isn't the case. This is going to cause him some trouble. If you intercepted a message between lords and kingdoms, it could even spell a cause for war or the breaking of treaties through dire insult.


    That's all I have for the time being. Any additions or corrections will be included.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-10-20 at 10:19 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Glyph of Warding + [Raise Dead/Death Ward/Cure Wounds/etc.] comes to mind. Especially useful if there is only one healer in the party. Bard casts Glyph of Warding + Raise Dead and tells his buddies, "If you die, I'll Raise you. If I die, take me back here ASAP and I'll Raise myself."

    Contingency + Cure Wounds V is a nifty way to gain something akin to half-orc Relentless Endurance: if you have 80 HP, and the dragon breaths on you for 130 points of damage, instead of dropping to 0 HP and making death saves, you drop to ~20 HP (and lose concentration on your spells from going briefly unconscious) and keep fighting--or more likely, run away.
    I like the way AD&D PCs are grounded in mythic fantasy archetypes. 5E has too much HP inflation and too few consequences... In AD&D 2nd edition, a high-level fighter can potentially fall from orbit and survive the 20d6 HP of damage (plus saving throw vs. death) that entails, and be perfectly healthy again only a few weeks later; in 5E, a 6th level wizard can fall from orbit and not only survive but be perfectly healthy again only a few hours later. I feel the AD&D way leads to better adventures.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    A shoutout has to go to Moonbeam. The sheer scale of the single-target damage that spell can do is somewhat mindboggling with the right party.

    As a 2nd level spell, taken at face value, it doesn't appear that impressive, but upcast it and add some party push/pull shenanigans and it really starts getting into "silly damage" territory. The AoE isn't impressive, but that actually plays to its advantage if we're considering the single-target potential; it allows the party to bust out those push/pull tricks in a much smaller space and without having to move around so much as, say, Spike Growth.

    It's not exactly innovative or unknown, but it's definitely up there with the big boys as a powerful tool in any spellcasters book (if they can get their mitts on it). So yeah, Orbital Death Laser Moonbeam gets my vote.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2017-05-31 at 06:27 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Glyph of Warding + [Raise Dead/Death Ward/Cure Wounds/etc.] comes to mind. Especially useful if there is only one healer in the party. Bard casts Glyph of Warding + Raise Dead and tells his buddies, "If you die, I'll Raise you. If I die, take me back here ASAP and I'll Raise myself."
    See, now that is a really good idea and is actually useful. It might not technically work, depending on how much mechanical weight you assign to the first sentence of the Glyph of Warding description: "you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures...".

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Can you target dimensional limbo with Planeshift? Shoving an enemy into the void between dimensions is an even meaner way to get rid of them, AND you spare yourself the risk of annoying a bunch of outsiders by dumping one of their hated enemies on their front lawn.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    Can you target dimensional limbo with Planeshift? Shoving an enemy into the void between dimensions is an even meaner way to get rid of them, AND you spare yourself the risk of annoying a bunch of outsiders by dumping one of their hated enemies on their front lawn.
    Well, it isn't a core plane ( Core transitive planes being the Astral and Ethereal ), so it would probably need to be done in homebrew question. However, if it's the "Void between Dimensions", is it actually a Plane or a space between Planes? No idea. I think the closest equivalent in core lore would be to throw an enemy to The Far Realm. Even though it says there are no portals to there, but it doesn't say you can't teleport yourself or someone to there through spells.

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    A shoutout has to go to Moonbeam. The sheer scale of the single-target damage that spell can do is somewhat mindboggling with the right party.

    As a 2nd level spell, taken at face value, it doesn't appear that impressive, but upcast it and add some party push/pull shenanigans and it really starts getting into "silly damage" territory.
    Moonbeam is an ok spell, but the view that it is super powerful comes from an incorrect understanding of the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/719945997036572673
    Moonbeam, spirit guardians & the like work the same way: a creature, not the spell effect, does the entering.
    Quote Originally Posted by https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/713166889409642496
    Moonbeam is meant to get you when you enter the light (not when it passes over you) or start your turn in it
    It does apply for being pushed into it:
    Quote Originally Posted by https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/716072740965392384
    If you get hurled into an effect, you have entered it. This is true for moonbeam and similar spell effects.
    But the amount of damage it puts out isn't out of this world amazing for the amount of investment required unless you also misread the move over as damaging.

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    Can you target dimensional limbo with Planeshift? Shoving an enemy into the void between dimensions is an even meaner way to get rid of them, AND you spare yourself the risk of annoying a bunch of outsiders by dumping one of their hated enemies on their front lawn.
    Sounds like the makings of a vestige.
    Roll for it
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Very interesting thread! Thank you!
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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Moonbeam is an ok spell, but the view that it is super powerful comes from an incorrect understanding of the rules.
    I feel like Crawford is saying "we had intended it to function this way" as though the spells said that when a creature moves into the area of Moonbeam or Spirit Guardians.

    while i do agree though that 26 squares of AoE is pretty much the reason its considered powerful
    Last edited by toapat; 2017-05-31 at 09:26 PM.
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    I think Fabricate is broken as worded.
    If you have proficiency in blacksmith's tools, you can take any lump of metal and turn it into a finely crafted piece of armor. Sell for high solar in a big city and get rich enough to fund anything.
    Mix with Cleric's Knowledge of the Ages and you can make ANYTHING you need, provided you have materials and it isn't too big.
    Need to make an exact replica of something? Check.
    Need to get a town drunk with free beer? Check.
    Turn a rough gem and a gold piece into a wedding ring? Check.
    Need to cook a perfect meal in under 10 minutes? Check.
    Need to craft a key for a keyhole? Arguably.
    I could go on...

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    I'm pretty sure regardless of whether you can see a place remotely, it still must be within the casting range of you, the caster. The only exception I can think of would be the Invoke Duplicity Trickery Cleric Ability which specifically states you can cast through the illusion (though must use your senses).

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    edit: this was one really awful wall of text before i fixed it.

    so, before i get started on debunking most of these (if i didn't mention it, i probably didn't feel it was really worth mentioning), i feel like i should put the one interesting use i found in the entire list: magic mouth. that one is pretty interesting. i mean, it still requires you to jam something into a person's ear, but at least it's got some potential. you could even make sound-canceling headphones for yourself that way to protect you from harpy attacks (recommended you use white noise instead of you screaming though).

    leomund's tiny hut: the caster must stay inside or the spell ends. it's still good, don't get me wrong, but you're not going to create a place to retreat to unless the caster is not going to be contributing to the fight beyond providing a place to retreat to. you aren't going to make a dozen of them to block off a wide opening, or making a chain of huts. it's also debatable at best whether you can even cast the spell while in a river (since you need to be inside it), considering you'd need to meet the requirements for casting the spell for 10 minutes. not to mention anything worthy of being called a river is much wider than a leomund's tiny hut.

    mordenkainen's hound: the hound attacks things within 5 feet of it and doesn't move. there are certainly some potential uses there, but it really isn't very impressive without a lot of setup. for example, if you cast the spell and then someone else surrounds the hound (and a bunch of enemies) in a wall of force so they're trapped within its reach, good times. if you dig a pit trap, put a hound at the bottom, grease the sides, and bait an enemy to fall in, good times. if you just cast the spell someplace with nothing to hold people there when they get there, well, first off the hound will warn them before they get close, and secondly you probably won't get many attacks in since it doesn't do anything to force them to stay there. so while it can be useful, i'm not convinced it's useful the way you're describing it.

    teleportation circle: it has a 1 minute casting time and a 1 round duration. i don't know what you're fighting that lets you spend a minute casting right next to them without noticing you or moving away, but i don't think i've ever fought one. as to teleporting things to a cliff... i'm curious as to why someone spent 18,250 gp to put a destination circle on a cliff. honestly, i'm not even sure of the mechanics of that... they have to place it on the ground, which i think most would agree is not a cliff face, so... did they pull a lex luthor and sink the coast right next to where the circle was with incredible precision? these uses seem pretty questionable at best...

    forbiddance: has a 10 minute casting time (20 minutes if you try to ritual cast it). it only damages creatures of one specific type chosen from a limited group of types. you're not going to drop this on anyone. but at least it lasts long enough that you can reasonably cast the spell and try to lure enemies into the area. i doubt any meaningfully challenging opponent is going to run into a whole bunch of them one after the other just to accomadate you by the time you can cast this, though.

    mirage arcane: illusory reality lets you choose one object. not as many as you want. most generous reading would allow you to do this with up to 10 objects (one per bonus action you have in a minute). a more literal reading would tell you that the ability lets you choose one object, when you cast the spell, and that is the only object you can make (semi) real. with that said, i don't know why you brought it up: mirage arcane has physical components to the illusion, and even seeing the illusion for an illusion doesn't let you pass through the illusion. on a related note, you aren't going to make anyone trip over stuff they can't see, because the stuff they can see has a physical presence. if it looks like flat, open terrain, it *is* flat, open terrain. you seem to be swiping this idea from someone else without properly understanding what the significant illusionist ability is... the interesting one is malleable illusion, which lets you change the illusion after casting it so long as you can see it.

    symbol: is a level 7 rather expensive spell (so you don't get many per day and you need to find a source of infinite gold first). with yet another very long casting time. and the spell is immobile. if you're going to abuse this, it probably has a lot more to do with abusing wish than abusing symbol, but seriously... the most broken use you can find is the damage? the spell has completely crippling effects that target your choice of wis, con, int, or cha, with no concentration requirement, no limit to the number of creatures it works on, a massive area of effect, and you're salivating over 10d10 damage? you call that abuse? this spell features an int-save effect which removes the target's ability to take actions, understand things, read, say anything but gibberish, and it can only move erratically and not under its own control. *that* is a ridiculously powerful effect. 10d10 damage to an enemy you're facing when you can actually use this spell is chump change (unless, as with the hound earlier, you have something to hold it in place, unable to leave).

    enlarge/reduce: that's not an exploit, that's what the spell does. it is pretty versatile, i admit. it's questionable at best using the spell to crush things, however. getting things stuck by expanding them as large as they can until no space is left fits in with the spell description, but it is important to mention that the target does get a con save to resist if it's an unwilling creature, so good luck getting a dragon stuck in anything with this spell, the dragon will probably make the save and then some.

    phantasmal force: it may require an int save to resist it, but that doesn't mean it turns the person you cast it on turn into a drooling idiot. honestly, this spell is so subject to DM interpretation, it isn't even clear what it can do until you talk to your DM anyways. in any event, whatever you create can't be bigger than a 10 foot cube, and can't move out of that spot (not even for an illusionist, who must be able to see illusions to use malleable illusion on them), so i'm having a hard time imagining how you're going to get someone to walk into a chasm unless the chasm was already disguised in the first place (in which case you didn't need an illusion to cover it up).

    rope trick: it's completely immobile. and if you're ducking in and out, you've just told your enemy where they need to set up their next attack from. while you're climbing down the rope, by the way. so while climbing up (to get in the first time) and down (to get out when it ends), it's safe to say your melee characters are useless, no two-handed weapons are usable (which rules out a lot of ranged weapons), and i wouldn't be surprised if the DM ruled you take disadvantage on any attacks you do make (your mobility is severely restricted) and enemies get advantage to hit you. it might be useful against something that is almost incapable of adapting to situations, but it'll probably backfire pretty hard in any other scenario. and frankly, you don't need a rope trick to abuse something that is incapable of adapting to changing situations.

    tenser's floating disc: floats 3 feet above surfaces, can't handle more than 10 foot sudden elevation changes. unless you're talking about flying 3 feet above the ground, this isn't going to work.

    divination: the spell doesn't alter reality, it tells you probabilities. and can see a whopping 7 days into the future. and you have to ask about a specific event. so for example "will the price of furs increase" (which won't tell you anything if the price of, say, gems changes). and it costs you 25 gp per time you use it, and the answer might be cryptic to boot. so good luck making a ton of money with this...

    wall of force: this is not a revelation, it's a stated use of the spell. but if you're going to mention exploits, perhaps you should at least draw attention to the fact that wall of force does not allow a save, and allows you to decide which side a target that intersects the boundaries ends up on.

    programmed illusion: you're supposed to be telling me about how to exploit these spells, not telling me that i should find my own.

    transport via plants: does not specify that you can shove someone through, actually says any creature can step in and be transported. it even states the creature must choose to use their movement to do so.

    finger of death: well, at least this one works. it isn't news to anyone who has actually read the spell, but at least it works.

    reverse gravity: not an exploit.

    simulacrum: that isn't an addition to the obvious uses, that *is* an obvious use. the exploit is using it to make a copy of yourself (preferably with wish) so that you get (almost) double spell slots for a day.

    polymorph/true polymorph: not unless you summoned the target without concentration. but seriously, why use polymorph on a summon? if you need something to transport you, your party members are much higher CR than anything you can summon, polymorph them instead, it only costs one spell slot, it only uses up one concentration, it's just better. as for true polymorph... the highest CR creature you can summon is a CR 9. true polymorph can turn any object (including a hair you just plucked from your head) into a CR 9 creature. you're either using two spell slots (one of which is a level 9 slot) and two concentrations to get an effect less than you could get with just the one level 9 spell slot, or you're using two level 9 spell slots to get the benefit of only one. either way, that's not an exploit, that's a waste.

    levitate: ummm... this is more a use of spell mastery than levitation (other at-will levitation abilities... or should i say, ability... being limited to self-only). and it doesn't do what you think. unless you have a target that is welling to stand underneath something you've levitated. and if you think the best use of a level 18 wizard is to lift and lower objects all day, i'm going to have to disagree strongly. if you need power generation that badly, build a water wheel with fabricate.

    misty step/spell mastery: and be unable to use any spells except for cantrips, including being unable to counterspell or use my spell mastery shield? no thanks. misty step is great. worth being a spell mastery pick even. not great enough to use every round and leave myself open to ambush.

    awaken: for 56,000 gold, i can get a lot more mercenaries to follow me around for a lot longer than 2 days. and you obviously haven't read the charmed condition, because it doesn't do what you think it does.

    forcecage: that isn't an exploit. that's using a high level spell slot to do something you could've done with a low level spell slot.

    planeshift: that isn't an exploit. it's right in the spell description. and it requires you hit with a melee attack and also allows a saving throw. and has a 250 gp material component per plane, and is a level 7 spell... i could have sent up to 12 people to go on a 30 day road trip to waterdeep with that spell slot, and i wouldn't have needed to be standing next to someone or successfully hit their AC either.

    transmute rock: we must have different definitions of core. also different definitions of exploit. how am i hauling around a 40 foot cube of mud again? how am i even keeping it mud? this spell is incredibly powerful for a variety of reasons. the ability to turn a bunch of mud into really crappy rock is not one of those reasons.

    arcane gate: and then they can shoot right back at you through the exact same portal. what's your point?

    drawmij's instant summons: at 1,000 gp per use, and requiring that the target be carrying an object which you specifically prepared, i'm having a really hard time imagining this being of particular value. and you're relying on someone who can become impossible to use divination magic on being unable to detect magic or see invisible stuff (like the marks you made on the object). i'm a bit doubtful of the value of this tracking method.
    Last edited by SharkForce; 2017-05-31 at 11:16 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    I'm pretty sure regardless of whether you can see a place remotely, it still must be within the casting range of you, the caster. The only exception I can think of would be the Invoke Duplicity Trickery Cleric Ability which specifically states you can cast through the illusion (though must use your senses).
    It's a range of Sight thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    edit: this was one really awful wall of text before i fixed it.

    so, before i get started on debunking most of these
    We shall see. Many have tried "debunking" these, none have succeeded much.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    leomund's tiny hut: the caster must stay inside or the spell ends. it's still good, don't get me wrong, but you're not going to create a place to retreat to unless the caster is not going to be contributing to the fight beyond providing a place to retreat to. you aren't going to make a dozen of them to block off a wide opening, or making a chain of huts. it's also debatable at best whether you can even cast the spell while in a river (since you need to be inside it), considering you'd need to meet the requirements for casting the spell for 10 minutes. not to mention anything worthy of being called a river is much wider than a leomund's tiny hut.
    You are correct about this. But it still an a complete invulnerable fortress to all damage if you cast it while stealthed or nearby somewhere and then lure the enemy there, could block a passage as long as you're inside, and the chain of huts might not work, indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mordenkainen's hound: the hound attacks things within 5 feet of it and doesn't move. there are certainly some potential uses there, but it really isn't very impressive without a lot of setup. for example, if you cast the spell and then someone else surrounds the hound (and a bunch of enemies) in a wall of force so they're trapped within its reach, good times. if you dig a pit trap, put a hound at the bottom, grease the sides, and bait an enemy to fall in, good times. if you just cast the spell someplace with nothing to hold people there when they get there, well, first off the hound will warn them before they get close, and secondly you probably won't get many attacks in since it doesn't do anything to force them to stay there. so while it can be useful, i'm not convinced it's useful the way you're describing it.
    I know what it attacks. And that was the intended use, but this is mostly good for stupid creatures that just attack whatever attacks them, which would include something like the Tarrasque. You could even make your hound visible with some materials or spells to encourage certain creatures to try and attack it. Nobody has a clue that it's invincible, even an intelligent melee enemy might try attacking it for a while. Imagine you have Greater invisibility and you start attacking someone, eventually he feels some kind of creature is there, if that creature is melee or a not very intelligent beast/undead/construct/monstrosity/aberration, it's probably going to try to put you down for quite a while.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    teleportation circle: it has a 1 minute casting time and a 1 round duration. i don't know what you're fighting that lets you spend a minute casting right next to them without noticing you or moving away, but i don't think i've ever fought one. as to teleporting things to a cliff... i'm curious as to why someone spent 18,250 gp to put a destination circle on a cliff. honestly, i'm not even sure of the mechanics of that... they have to place it on the ground, which i think most would agree is not a cliff face, so... did they pull a lex luthor and sink the coast right next to where the circle was with incredible precision? these uses seem pretty questionable at best...
    I don't intend to cast right next to it. I intend to prepare it in advance and then fling or lure an enemy towards it after initiating combat immediately afterwards. And by "cliff", I mean a deliberately gonna-fall-from-any-weight cliff edge, but forget it. Just put the portal in a place full of beings hostile to the creature or an elemental plane or an adamantine cage filled with acid or whatever you can think of

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    forbiddance: has a 10 minute casting time (20 minutes if you try to ritual cast it). it only damages creatures of one specific type chosen from a limited group of types. you're not going to drop this on anyone. but at least it lasts long enough that you can reasonably cast the spell and try to lure enemies into the area. i doubt any meaningfully challenging opponent is going to run into a whole bunch of them one after the other just to accomadate you by the time you can cast this, though.
    Again, and this goes for all "long casting complaints" - it's meant to be cast before a battle. A passage before a great room, a staircase before a lair, or even in an open space with Greater invisibility and non-detection for example. And there are plenty of meaningful undead or elementals who are not very bright by the way. Also, even lesser creatures are strong in large numbers, and this takes out a lot of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    mirage arcane: illusory reality lets you choose one object. not as many as you want. most generous reading would allow you to do this with up to 10 objects (one per bonus action you have in a minute). a more literal reading would tell you that the ability lets you choose one object, when you cast the spell, and that is the only object you can make (semi) real. with that said, i don't know why you brought it up: mirage arcane has physical components to the illusion, and even seeing the illusion for an illusion doesn't let you pass through the illusion. on a related note, you aren't going to make anyone trip over stuff they can't see, because the stuff they can see has a physical presence. if it looks like flat, open terrain, it *is* flat, open terrain. you seem to be swiping this idea from someone else without properly understanding what the significant illusionist ability is... the interesting one is malleable illusion, which lets you change the illusion after casting it so long as you can see it.
    And where did I choose as many as I want? Read it again, more carefully this time. A giant cage is a single object. A ramp is a single object. A prism is a single object. And I brought it up because some argue Mirage Arcane just "feels" real but isn't, I.E you could pass through a stone but feel as though you are covered by stone. It also says it can impede movement but the general shape needs to be the same. An adamantine cage doesn't have the same shape as the air. And I am far from swiping this.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    symbol: is a level 7 rather expensive spell (so you don't get many per day and you need to find a source of infinite gold first). with yet another very long casting time. and the spell is immobile. if you're going to abuse this, it probably has a lot more to do with abusing wish than abusing symbol, but seriously... the most broken use you can find is the damage? the spell has completely crippling effects that target your choice of wis, con, int, or cha, with no concentration requirement, no limit to the number of creatures it works on, a massive area of effect, and you're salivating over 10d10 damage? you call that abuse? this spell features an int-save effect which removes the target's ability to take actions, understand things, read, say anything but gibberish, and it can only move erratically and not under its own control. *that* is a ridiculously powerful effect. 10d10 damage to an enemy you're facing when you can actually use this spell is chump change (unless, as with the hound earlier, you have something to hold it in place, unable to leave).
    Once again, you demonstrate a total lack of understanding of what you're reading. I am salivating over 100d100 damage rather. Please make sure you read before posting. Symbol requires no concentration and lasts until dispelled, this mean you can inscribe as many symbols as you want on anything and have them trigger at the same time, causing all as much necrotic damage to a target as you can possible have the gold to keep casting symbols day after day following a long rest on something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    enlarge/reduce: that's not an exploit, that's what the spell does. it is pretty versatile, i admit. it's questionable at best using the spell to crush things, however. getting things stuck by expanding them as large as they can until no space is left fits in with the spell description, but it is important to mention that the target does get a con save to resist if it's an unwilling creature, so good luck getting a dragon stuck in anything with this spell, the dragon will probably make the save and then some.
    Okay? There are two definitions for exploit in the dictionary, I suggest you read them. There's also a reason this one is found in the lower categories.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    phantasmal force: it may require an int save to resist it, but that doesn't mean it turns the person you cast it on turn into a drooling idiot. honestly, this spell is so subject to DM interpretation, it isn't even clear what it can do until you talk to your DM anyways. in any event, whatever you create can't be bigger than a 10 foot cube, and can't move out of that spot (not even for an illusionist, who must be able to see illusions to use malleable illusion on them), so i'm having a hard time imagining how you're going to get someone to walk into a chasm unless the chasm was already disguised in the first place (in which case you didn't need an illusion to cover it up).
    It does make someone into a drooling idiot, that's literally in the spell description. The target will rationalize absolutely anything. And the cliff example is literally also in the spell description itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    rope trick: it's completely immobile. and if you're ducking in and out, you've just told your enemy where they need to set up their next attack from. while you're climbing down the rope, by the way. so while climbing up (to get in the first time) and down (to get out when it ends), it's safe to say your melee characters are useless, no two-handed weapons are usable (which rules out a lot of ranged weapons), and i wouldn't be surprised if the DM ruled you take disadvantage on any attacks you do make (your mobility is severely restricted) and enemies get advantage to hit you. it might be useful against something that is almost incapable of adapting to situations, but it'll probably backfire pretty hard in any other scenario. and frankly, you don't need a rope trick to abuse something that is incapable of adapting to changing situations.
    It's mostly useful for escaping dangerous situations and for doing that kind of thing for a few rounds before the enemies catch up to the opening. Once again, there's a reason it ranks a bit lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    tenser's floating disc: floats 3 feet above surfaces, can't handle more than 10 foot sudden elevation changes. unless you're talking about flying 3 feet above the ground, this isn't going to work.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ing-core-rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    divination: the spell doesn't alter reality, it tells you probabilities. and can see a whopping 7 days into the future. and you have to ask about a specific event. so for example "will the price of furs increase" (which won't tell you anything if the price of, say, gems changes). and it costs you 25 gp per time you use it, and the answer might be cryptic to boot. so good luck making a ton of money with this...
    No, it does not tell you probabilities, where the hell did you read it? Why the hell would it need to alter reality? Are you on drugs? And yes, 7 days is all it takes for what I described. And just to use your own example, if you have like 1000 gold to purchase a large quantity of furs and then trade them after the price increases, that's gonna more than make up for your 25gp to cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    wall of force: this is not a revelation, it's a stated use of the spell. but if you're going to mention exploits, perhaps you should at least draw attention to the fact that wall of force does not allow a save, and allows you to decide which side a target that intersects the boundaries ends up on.
    Are you kidding me? The fact that it does require a save and lasts for 10 minutes and is essentially and extremely broken cousin of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere when used in it's sphere form, and pretty much equivalent in power to the Maze spell, is what makes this an exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    programmed illusion: you're supposed to be telling me about how to exploit these spells, not telling me that i should find my own.
    Well, there's simply an infinite ways to exploit infinite illusions spanning massive territories, but I'll make sure to write up a sample list for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    transport via plants: does not specify that you can shove someone through, actually says any creature can step in and be transported. it even states the creature must choose to use their movement to do so.
    Does not specify indeed, and does not specify otherwise. I did say "potentially". And it doesn't state "must choose", it states "can use". More bizarre alterations to official text from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    finger of death: well, at least this one works. it isn't news to anyone who has actually read the spell, but at least it works.
    Wasn't supposed to be news.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    reverse gravity: not an exploit.
    It is, in the dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    simulacrum: that isn't an addition to the obvious uses, that *is* an obvious use. the exploit is using it to make a copy of yourself (preferably with wish) so that you get (almost) double spell slots for a day.
    I know about that exploit that everybody else knows about. But no, I don't think it's an obvious use.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    polymorph/true polymorph: not unless you summoned the target without concentration. but seriously, why use polymorph on a summon? if you need something to transport you, your party members are much higher CR than anything you can summon, polymorph them instead, it only costs one spell slot, it only uses up one concentration, it's just better. as for true polymorph... the highest CR creature you can summon is a CR 9. true polymorph can turn any object (including a hair you just plucked from your head) into a CR 9 creature. you're either using two spell slots (one of which is a level 9 slot) and two concentrations to get an effect less than you could get with just the one level 9 spell slot, or you're using two level 9 spell slots to get the benefit of only one. either way, that's not an exploit, that's a waste.
    Very well, I'll grant you a better alternative here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    levitate: ummm... this is more a use of spell mastery than levitation (other at-will levitation abilities... or should i say, ability... being limited to self-only). and it doesn't do what you think. unless you have a target that is welling to stand underneath something you've levitated. and if you think the best use of a level 18 wizard is to lift and lower objects all day, i'm going to have to disagree strongly. if you need power generation that badly, build a water wheel with fabricate.
    A Simulacrum will do the job nicely, but once again, this is not "debunking".

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    misty step/spell mastery: and be unable to use any spells except for cantrips, including being unable to counterspell or use my spell mastery shield? no thanks. misty step is great. worth being a spell mastery pick even. not great enough to use every round and leave myself open to ambush.
    Why would you be unable to cast anything except for cantrips when Misty Step is a bonus action?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    awaken: for 56,000 gold, i can get a lot more mercenaries to follow me around for a lot longer than 2 days. and you obviously haven't read the charmed condition, because it doesn't do what you think it does.
    I did read the charmed condition, and Awakened Trees are arguably more reliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    forcecage: that isn't an exploit. that's using a high level spell slot to do something you could've done with a low level spell slot.
    It is. Not a "debunking" though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    planeshift: that isn't an exploit. it's right in the spell description. and it requires you hit with a melee attack and also allows a saving throw. and has a 250 gp material component per plane, and is a level 7 spell... i could have sent up to 12 people to go on a 30 day road trip to waterdeep with that spell slot, and i wouldn't have needed to be standing next to someone or successfully hit their AC either.
    Except the trip to waterdeep won't send them into a hostile plane where powerful creatures might attack them on sight, and Suggestion doesn't work the way you think i does.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    transmute rock: we must have different definitions of core. also different definitions of exploit. how am i hauling around a 40 foot cube of mud again? how am i even keeping it mud? this spell is incredibly powerful for a variety of reasons. the ability to turn a bunch of mud into really crappy rock is not one of those reasons.
    Yes, we certainly do. Bag of Holding. Portable Hole. Take your pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    arcane gate: and then they can shoot right back at you through the exact same portal. what's your point?
    Wrong. "Any creature or object entering the portal exits from the other portal as if the two were adjacent to each other; passing through a portal from the nonportal side has no effect. Shoot from 3/4 cover, or dispel it. Also, the ring is visible only from a side which you choose, you do know that I assume.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    drawmij's instant summons: at 1,000 gp per use, and requiring that the target be carrying an object which you specifically prepared, i'm having a really hard time imagining this being of particular value. and you're relying on someone who can become impossible to use divination magic on being unable to detect magic or see invisible stuff (like the marks you made on the object). i'm a bit doubtful of the value of this tracking method.
    Not necessarily an object you prepared, you could cast it on an object in it's lair or room. And you have trouble imagining a lot of things, such as casting nondetection on the object. Truesight is quite rare by the way.

    This isn't a "debunking". You've debunked almost nothing, except for partial applications, it's mostly complaints of "Not powerful enough" or "I can't do everything I want with this", falsehoods and misreadings. Please provide direct quotes from spell descriptions or core book for any further post you make. Also, post some original spell exploits of your own so we can compare notes on what's "good enough" and what isn't, I'll be interested in seeing much more impressive applications.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-06-01 at 12:22 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    It's a range of Sight thought.
    What spell has a range of "sight?"

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    forbiddance: has a 10 minute casting time (20 minutes if you try to ritual cast it). it only damages creatures of one specific type chosen from a limited group of types. you're not going to drop this on anyone. but at least it lasts long enough that you can reasonably cast the spell and try to lure enemies into the area. i doubt any meaningfully challenging opponent is going to run into a whole bunch of them one after the other just to accomadate you by the time you can cast this, though.
    "Choose one or more of the following: celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead." Not just limited to one type; it's a great spell.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Why would you be unable to cast anything except for cantrips when Misty Step is a bonus action?
    I believe the reference is to the Bonus Action spell rule: cast a BA spell and can only cast a cantrip that turn.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    What spell has a range of "sight?"
    Tsunami and Storm of Vengeance

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    "Choose one or more of the following: celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead." Not just limited to one type; it's a great spell.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    I believe the reference is to the Bonus Action spell rule: cast a BA spell and can only cast a cantrip that turn.
    Very well. Still quite useful for moving quickly away in combat, and even more outside of combat.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-06-01 at 01:28 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Tsunami and Storm of Vengeance
    Gotcha. Not sure I'd really be too worried about this as they're both high level and intended to be used as such. I mean you could stand on a mountain just as easily and cast either at quite a distance. Doable though.

    Edit: I think the combo only works with a Familiar that's within 100 ft, unless a chainpact Warlock with the extended range invocation multiclassed with a Druid (or Bard getting either spell with Magic Secrets). The other spells that let you see at a distance are Concentration as are both of these spells and Concentration ends as soon as you start casting a new Concentration spell, therefore you wouldn't see that distant point when the spell is cast.

    Could do it with a magic item perhaps, though.
    Last edited by Rsp29a; 2017-06-01 at 02:01 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Gotcha. Not sure I'd really be too worried about this as they're both high level and intended to be used as such. I mean you could stand on a mountain just as easily and cast either at quite a distance. Doable though.
    Well, yes, worth nothing that as long as you have Sight somewhere ( Including with Scrying or Project Image or with a familiar and so on ), you could pretty much cast them there through your artificial sight. Take Tsunami for example with concentration up to 6 rounds and the damage it does to creatures failing their saving throws throughout, 300 feet long, 300 feet high. You could seriously damage a powerful creature or wipe out a whole area of creatures by casting it through your projected image or Scrying and so on while being completely away from the area.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Well, yes, worth nothing that as long as you have Sight somewhere ( Including with Scrying or Project Image or with a familiar and so on ), you could pretty much cast them there through your artificial sight. Take Tsunami for example with concentration up to 6 rounds and the damage it does to creatures failing their saving throws throughout, 300 feet long, 300 feet high. You could seriously damage a powerful creature or wipe out a whole area of creatures by casting it through your projected image or Scrying and so on while being completely away from the area.
    Yeah but they're both Druid only, and Druids don't get the spells that let them see far away, and all the spells are Concentration so you couldn't use them together. Best bet is either a magic item that doesn't require Concentration, or Druid 17/Warlock (Chain) 3 for the limitless Familiar communication invocation.

    Though I'm less impressed with a very specific combo that only comes online between 18-20th level. Would be cool to pull off though.
    Last edited by Rsp29a; 2017-06-01 at 02:05 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Yeah but they're both Druid only, and Druids don't get the spells that let them see far away, and all the spells are Concentration so you couldn't use them together. Best bet is either a magic item that doesn't require Concentration, or Druid 17/Warlock (Chain) 3 for the limitless Familiar communication invocation.

    Though I'm less impressed with a very specific combo that only comes online between 18-20th level. Would be cool to pull off though.
    Theoretically a Bard could use them with his class ability, and yes I was also thinking about Warlock ( Even made a guide about it once ) with familiar, and as for concentration, I think what happens when you cast a concentration spell while concentrating, it just basically breaks you last concentration, but the new concentration spell is still cast, at least that's how it works in official WOTC sessions, Critical Role, etc... so theoretically I think you can do Scrying, and then Tsunami and Storm for the initial damage as they appear, although you would no longer be able to see them afterwards so some might rule this breaks off the spell. However initial damage should still work. And of course full damage with familiars or other methods.

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Moonbeam is an ok spell...[snip]...But the amount of damage it puts out isn't out of this world amazing for the amount of investment required unless you also misread the move over as damaging.
    2d10 (average: 11)
    x 5 (reasonable duration of a combat)
    x 2 (minimum number of instances of damage you can reasonably expect to get out of it, given you're using the spell in the first place and are set up for some kind of push/pull tricks)
    = 55-110 damage for a 2nd level spell (depending on Saves)

    As far as single target damage goes, this isn't an awesome investment because you can deal similar damage with cantrips (at least at higher levels; at level 3, when you gain access to it, this is pretty competetive damage; as you say, nothing spectacular, but still competetive).
    - Now add the 10ft AoE (which makes it easy to abuse push/pulls, which are often shoves or drags of 10-15ft).
    - Now add really good scaling when it's upcast (+1d10 doesn't sound like much until you start multiplying by duration and number of instances of damage).
    - Now add a party that's in on the push/pull gig (push/pull shenanigans are often resource free or light; if Moonbeam can do the heavy lifting for an entire fight, then rather than everyone burning a bunch of resources to end it as fast as possible, just shoving the target around like a bunch of schoolyard bullies is efficient).
    - Now add that it's guaranteed damage that a Rogue can't Evasion (the Con for half isn't ideal, but it does mean it's much harder to dodge entirely and the fact that there's no "wiff factor" for a complete miss makes the spell reliable).

    Moonbeam might be mistakenly considered overpowered because of a misinterpretation of its AoE (which isn't what I'm doing), but it's often underestimated for just how much damage it can actually put out under the right circumstances. Against foes that can be shoved around multiple times in a round, [i]Moonbeam[/] can easily rack up hundreds of points of damage for a relatively small investment. It's not "OMGsupermegagood", but it can be a very efficient damage/battlefield control spell.

    To showcase ideal circumstances;

    9th level Moonbeam: 9d10 (average: about 50)
    10 round combat: x10
    Party of 4 all in on the gig: x5
    = 1,250-2,500 single target damage

    Even with Legendary Saves, massive Con or even resistance to Radiant Damage, that's a death spell for practically anything in the Monster Manual and it doesn't take into consideration whatever damage you and your team-mates are doing to get their push/pulls (e.g. Repelling Blast, Thorn Whip, Open Hand techniques, etc. to mention a few spammable ones, let alone the bigger guns available).
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    I'm not arguing that moonbeam is a bad spell, just that it has a normal power level.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    x 5 (reasonable duration of a combat)
    Looking at pure damage over all rounds of combat is not really the full picture. Burst damage early on in combats is far more valuable than long term damage as any enemies killed by the burst do not harm your party. Effectively each round of combat should be weighted by the impact it would have with the earlier rounds having a much larger impact.

    Many other spells last durations and are much easier to pull off. Heat Metal (on metal armor) has no save nor attack so it is a very valuable spell in comparison. Heat Metal and Flaming Sphere both use a bonus action which allows for the normal big burst or CC spells a caster brings to be cast on subsequent turns. I'd argue that Heat Metal and Flaming Sphere are probably better spells in most circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    x 2 (minimum number of instances of damage you can reasonably expect to get out of it, given you're using the spell in the first place and are set up for some kind of push/pull tricks)
    I believe this to be an unreasonable assuption. Your action is used by the move so any additional push or pull would requrie party help. For a party member to help there is an opportunity cost in that they have to not do their normal action for that round. For example a Babarian would have to give up one of it's attacks. .88%*11.5(3+2+6.5) is equivalent damage to the liklihood of them pushing a creature (dependent on creature strength). Other "easy" options would be something like thorn whip, but all of them come with an opportunity cost.

    It is a decent spell with some opportunity for party assistance, but it's not overpowered or something I'd consider an exploit.

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    Default Re: A list of 33 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    I'm not arguing that moonbeam is a bad spell, just that it has a normal power level.

    It is a decent spell with some opportunity for party assistance, but it's not overpowered or something I'd consider an exploit.
    I agree that it's largely a "normal" power level spell and not overpowered, but the exploit isn't in how much OTT damage it deals, but in its efficiency. For the investment of a single spell slot, it can end fights when combined with a party that's got push/pull on hand.

    As you say, ending a fight earlier is better than later, but if that comes at the cost of everyone expending a long rest rest resource or two, then the opportunity cost of ending that fight quickly is high. If you can end the fight with a single long rest resource and a bunch of shoves and cantrips, however, that cost is very low. I'm arguing that Moonbeam has a relatively high Output:Cost "efficiency rating" and what makes it noteworthy for this thread is that it requires the "exploit" of party participation to really see the full potential.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    "make full use of and derive benefit from" is a verb. in "a list of 31 core spell exploits", the 'exploits' is a noun. when used as a noun, "exploits" means either "a software tool designed to take advantage of a flaw in a computer system, typically for malicious purposes such as installing malware" or "a bold or daring feat". so, is it a bold or daring feat to leave mordenkainen's hound somewhere and vaguely hope they'll walk into it and die one at a time? because i was kinda figuring you were using it more in the former definition, except obviously instead of taking advantage of a flaw in a computer system, it's taking advantage of a flaw in the rules. closely related to "to use someone or something unfairly for your own advantage", really, except that once again, that definition of exploit is *also* a verb and thus does not fit in the sentence you've used any more than "ate" or "liquefy" or "shoot" would.

    mordenkainen's hound: there really aren't a lot of things dumb enough to blindly attack whatever comes near them. you're looking at a few constructs, and maybe skeletons and zombies (if they're not under the control of something else). in fact, unintelligent enemies more likely avoid fighting. i mean, when was the last time you saw a wild animal choose to fight when it absolutely did not have to? they may not be human-level intelligent, but they're not stupid enough to start an unnecessary fight, and they're certainly not stupid enough to not run away when they're losing. mordenkainen's hound is immobile. even if we're going with your "make full use of and derive benefit from" definition, if you're going to use this spell to it's full extent, it will involve finding a way to trap people in with your hound. the number of enemies it might work on without trapping targets in for it to kill are far too few to make it worth packing this spell without some other means of trapping people.

    teleportation circle: prepare it in advance how? it lasts ONE ROUND. you cast the spell, you have precisely one round to get people through. your advance preparations need to be right next to someone, because you don't have time to get someone from 200 feet away into the portal, you have only one turn. that is all. and again, who's blowing over 18,000 gold and a year of their life to put a destination circle in a one-use death trap? you can't send people to other planes with teleporation circle (that requires plane shift and a willing target).

    forbiddance: again, we're not looking at super-intelligence to avoid feeding themselves into death. regular animals can figure that out. you might be able to kill a horde of unled skeletons or zombies, but that's about it. pretty much anything that can make decisions can still figure out that pain is bad, this doesn't require super genius level intelligence to figure out. if they're that dumb, just use a wall of fire which has zero set-up time. or, if you have that much time to set up, dig a pit trap with mold earth, which doesn't take spell slots and is crazy good anyways. i mean, they're stupid enough to march to their death one way, why not any number of other ways?

    mirage arcane: the spell creates or removes difficult terrain and works even against truesight. there isn't really any room to argue that the stuff the spell makes does not have a physical presence. and no, "one object" is not the limitation. the limitation is when the spell is cast, choose one object. not whenever you feel like it. not when the spell is cast, choose as many objects as you want. but when the spell is cast, choose one. unless you are casting mirage arcane 100 times, you are not choosing 100 objects. so, for example, when you say "You could make tiny adamantine cells to eventually suffocate hundreds or thousands of creatures when the air inside their tiny prison begins to run out"... well, no, you can't. because you pick one object when you cast the spell. not hundreds or thousands of tiny objects. one object.

    symbol: 100d10 damage... that cost you 10,000 gold. for 10,000 gold, hire a mercenary army. they'll output a lot more than 100d10 damage before they're done, and you don't need an enemy to walk into them because they (unlike a symbol) can move. this is not using the spell slot, the time, or the gold to its full potential. not even close. if you are going to use a whole bunch of symbols for something, use them to set up a bunch of different save-or-disable effects. you can buy damage a heck of a lot cheaper. it even comes with free meat shields.

    enlarge/reduce: again, when used as a noun, exploit does not mean "to use something well".

    phantasmal force: the target will justify lots of things... but that doesn't mean they'll do whatever they're told. they'll accept that there is something in front of them that looks like their god's avatar (except probably much smaller, being only 10 cubic feet) that is telling them crazy things. they aren't necessarily going to accept that their god is telling them to commit suicide. they could as easily justify it as "something is trying to trick me, that thing there just looks like my good" or "i must be going crazy". they will justify why their hand passes through their supposed deity. but no, they won't just stab themselves in the gut because a thing that looks like their god told them to. or at least, very few creatures will. few are likely to walk onto a ledge that arbitrarily appears over a cliff, either. in the event that they do walk onto that ledge, they will justify why they fell (they must have stepped in the wrong place, or a piece of the ledge crumbled when they stepped on it). it isn't mind control. you can make them see something (contained fully within a 10 foot cube that doesn't leave that area). you can't force them to act on what they see.

    rope trick: escaping people how? by sticking your hand and attacking so that they know there's a portal there? and how are you attacking anyone if they haven't caught up to be attacked? the spell is good for taking short rests when nobody sees you go in (provided your DM isn't completely literal and insists that the spell ends a few seconds too early for you to finish your rest). it is mediocre at best for escaping in a fight (again, you're going to be pretty vulnerable while climbing), and an invitation for your enemies to set up an ambush to go off the moment you come out if you demonstrate to them that the portal is still there and that you didn't just teleport away.

    tenser's floating disc: that would be one of the four uses you talked about which might possibly work. none of the others mention even trying to use a sketchy "i'm placing an object underneath it that might count as ground" interpretation.

    divination: "the spell doesn’t take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome". it's making an educated guess. it's telling you what will probably happen, based on the information available to the being that is answering. but something, almost anything really, could change the outcome. and yes, if you cast divination once a week, waiting until you get information that the price will go up, you will probably go bankrupt. even if the price does go up (and even if the god gave you a clear answer instead of expecting you to earn your money without pestering them constantly for free handouts instead of actually going into the world and being the god's representative like you're supposed to), it might not go up enough to cover the costs of buying all those furs, especially when as a non-merchant you sell them at half-price. and especially since furs going up doesn't necessarily mean all furs go up, or that anyone will want 1,000 gp worth of furs if the price does go up. or maybe the prices are going to go up because something that eats the furs got into the supply, and when you bought your furs that 1,000 gp went up in smoke (figuratively speaking. probably) and prices on the next furs to come into the city from trappers will be higher. this sounds more like a good way to annoy your DM than a good way to make money.

    wall of force: if that's what makes the spell an exploit (funny that you're using it this way now), then why didn't you mention any of those pertinent facts in your explanation of how to use the spell?

    programmed illusion: there's a bunch of ways to use illusions. not a lot of ways to get good value out of spamming one everywhere on repeat.

    transport via plants: "can", not "must". a creature can do it. it has the ability. but it doesn't *have* to do it.

    finger of death: well if you're not trying to tell us about anything we don't already know, why are you even posting it here? i mean, at least if you suggested a non-obvious use of long-lasting loyal zombies, that would be something (for example, this is a *much* better way to generate power than having your level 18+ wizard spend all day lifting and lowering objects).

    reverse gravity: it might be exploiting the spell (verb). it isn't an exploit, since the spell is neither performing a bold or daring feat, nor is it taking advantage of a weakness in a computer system (or anything like it). it is simply the spell working as intended, in the most straightforward manner possible. if you had, say, a giant crossbow that hurled your party into a reverse gravity field while maintaining your forward momentum and then cast feather fall as you come out of the field, that might be a sort of hack (not a very good one, for a level 7 spell slot you could just cast fly on your party most likely). just making stuff fly up and drop down? perfectly straightforward, no "weaknesses" to take advantage of that way.

    simulacrum: the spell talks about making a creature that thinks and acts like someone. how did the use of making a loyal creature that thinks and acts like someone but is actually loyal to you not seem straightforward to you?

    levitate: i can think of better uses for a simulacrum, too (if nothing else, have the simulacrum fabricate a water wheel). lifting and lowering things straight up and down isn't a very good use of time for a person who can cast level 9 spells.

    misty step: as noted, once you've cast a bonus action spell, only cantrips with a casting time of 1 action can be cast until your next turn. which means no reactions (so no shield and no counterspell), and no level 1 or higher spells. again, misty step is good. good enough that i wouldn't argue with the idea of choosing it for spell mastery. using it every round, especially as an adventuring wizard, is bad.

    awaken: 56,000 gold can buy you a lot of reliability. as long as you don't pay it all in advance.

    forcecage: using a high level spell slot to do what you can do with a low level spell slot doesn't even fit the verb definition of exploit. you certainly aren't getting the most out of it, that's for sure.

    plane shift: who cares if they went to the plane of fire or not? i sent 12 people away instead of one, from a safer distance, and suggestion explicitly includes a guy randomly giving a horse worth several hundred gold to some random person because reasons as being a reasonable suggestion, so actually not risking their life and instead going on a trip somewhere most likely is perfectly reasonable to most people. by the time the suggestion wears off, if they have the resources to find me they probably had the resources to get away from whatever plane i sent them to as well.

    transmute rock: a 40 foot cube of mud is 64,000 cubic feet. a bag of holding can hold 64 cubic feet, as long as it doesn't weigh more than 500 lbs (mud probably will). mud has a density of about 115 lbs/cu ft, so... 4.33 cubic feet per bag, give or take (i'm rounding to a third of a cu ft for easier math). i would need to own and carry nearly 15,000 bags of holding for this. a portable hole is much more efficient, since it doesn't have a weight limit, but still only holds about 283 cubic feet, assuming we fill it right up to the brim. i would need to own and carry about 225 portable holes to transport that volume of mud. if (and this is a big if) i had that many magic items, i'm pretty sure i'd have better things to fill them up with than a ridiculous quantity of mud on the off chance that i might need to make some crappy rock. again, transmute rock is a great spell. it's like a no-concentration long-duration supercharged entangle that can be used in additional ways, which is frankly amazing. but hauling around a 40 foot cube of mud to make some soft rock? not what makes the spell good.

    arcane gate: let's review the first line of the spell: "you create linked teleportation portals that remain open for the duration". both rings are portals. anything that enters one comes out the other. if you are shooting in your end and it can hit the enemy, the enemy can shoot back through their portal and hit you. not with any great accuracy, granted (the portals don't allow vision), but then, you're firing blind too.

    drawmij's instant summons: truesight is unnecessary. a simple "detect magic" will reveal that something is up with the item, and a "see invisibility" will see the invisible marks you've placed. and if you're in it's lair, why do you need to track it? either the creature is in its lair also (no tracking required), or it isn't and the creature obviously doesn't wear or carry the object when leaving the lair, making it useless for tracking the creature in any way (not that a rough location is necessarily very useful; "in the city of townsville" is a rough location, as would be "in the misty mountains" or "on the seventh layer of the abyss" potentially). that's a pretty big chance to just throw 1,000 gp down the toilet. you want to track someone without using divination magic in a level 6 spell slot? cast conjure elemental in a level 6 spell slot, choose to use air as your component, and guess what the only CR 6 air elemental creature available to be summoned is? if you guessed "invisible stalker", you were right. and you know what an invisible stalker can do? instantly know the direction and distance to any creature you assign it as a quarry that's on the same plane. you didn't have to get into it's lair. you didn't have to spend 1,000 gold. you might have even gotten a much more specific location, provided you know what's in that direction at that distance. and when you arrive, you might even have a helper. if you're *really* eager to spend 1,000 gold, you can even spend it to planar bind the invisible stalker for a longer period of time. there are simply better ways to accomplish the same task, which means even if you're using your definition (which, again, doesn't work in your subject line, because it's a verb, not a noun), this isn't exploiting anything, it's a wasteful use of available resources.

    edit: looking through the eyes of a warlock's familiar costs your action, so unless you also have two levels of fighter or three levels of sorcerer (with quicken metamagic) you cannot look through your familiar's eyes and cast a level 9 spell in the same turn.
    Last edited by SharkForce; 2017-06-01 at 03:38 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    While I agree with some things to some degree, I completely disagree with Leomund's Tiny Hut. It is only applicable to what it is meant to do: provide a "save" haven to rest while on an adventure or in harsh climate. If I am not entirely mistaken, all it requires is a lousy level 3 abjuration called "Dispel Magic" to get rid of the hut and expose the clever adventurers. Additionally, rumors have evil DMs simply cast Darkness around the hut and then use some cheap labor force to entirely burry the hut with any rather unpleasant material.

    What I'm saying is: Doesn't seem "exploitable" to me if there is a relatively easy access spell to entirely take it out of the game AND simultaneously impose a likely disadvantage on the group using it, as the first time they will not be expecting their comfortable hut to simply disappear.

    I might be wrong, though and it is not dispelable, yet I can't find anything in the wording of the spell that would imply so.

    Don't know if this counts as exploit, but it is an amazing synergy that so far I have found enjoyable.

    Spoiler: Dimension Door Ape Bomb
    Show
    Requires two spell casters and Dimension Door, Polymorph plus feather fall (or a ring of feather falling).

    Our Bard who can cast Polymorph readies his action to Polymorph himself into a Giant Ape and wants to cast it as soon as the sorcerer used Dimension Door above the target (An Adult Red Dragon in this scenario). Sorcerer Dimension Doors about 300 feet above the flying dragon. Bard uses the readied action, jumps out of the sorcerer's arms, polymorphs himself into a Giant Ape and goes on a dive bombing mission on top of the dragon. Sorcerer uses his reaction to cast feather fall. Since the dragon and the Giant Ape have the same size dimension - huge - and the ape falls from a pretty high distance on top of the dragon, they both should be knocked to the ground pretty much instantly. It's quite a hard decision on how to calculate the damage here since the normal fall damage seems pitiful if two huge beats drop from several hundred feet. Either way, the bard ape has to make the concentration check or he'll find himself on the back of an adult dragon and the sorcerer is slowly floating towards the ground, so if the dragon gets up again, he'll be in for a snack. While this costs quite some resources, it gives that party a way to force a dragon to land that doesn't require breaking through legendary resistances, therefore I'd put this combo on par with Otto's Irresistible Dance.

    Dimension Door Ape Bombing in itself is pretty ab-usable depending on how you rule to calculate the damage done by a several ton beast hitting something after a ~500 feet fall. Could even be used to smash in smaller towers and stuff. Not sure if this is too much off-topic since it is a combination of spells. Sorry if it is!
    Last edited by Decstarr; 2017-06-01 at 04:21 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Its funny that for a guy who thinks he's very smart, the OP didnt even mention the famous Planar Binding abuse of getting powerful and completely obedient minions for up to a year, with no upper limit on the number of creatures. Though its easier to do it with a Cleric who can cast Planar Ally.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Hi!
    Interesting thread.

    In reaction to @Sharkforce comments...
    About Forbiddance, Symbol and more generally spells that are supposed to inflict damage based on a zone...

    Your point of "I can do the same kind of damage with an army of mercenaries" is certainly true. It would probably cost less money too. But the thing is, it's also totally different in management: an army will take a long time to travel, has to be fed, led, and will certainly be spotted by any enemy because beyond some size you cannot except a large group of creatures to remain stealthy thoughout, unless you spend yet additional resources dedicated to it (such as hiring bunches of Druids, Trickery Clerics or Bard to cast Pass Without Trace on large groups of people).
    Your army would also be very impractical in tight places, and may prove useless or at least very lackluster when facing high-CR creatures with extra defensive capabilities or great AOE abilities.
    The advantage of Glyphs and Symbols is that you can plan in advance, it's much more subtle and provided your tactic is good much more reliable. Of course it won't work in all situations, of course there are some in which this would be a bad idea (like probably any high-magic enemy such as a caster, who uses these tactics himself so will always detect these traps).

    On the question of "damaging areas" such as Forbiddance, like for Moonbeam, Spike Growth and the like, it's obviously not great if you would just cast it and wait for enemies to just stay there. But then the problem lies within you, not within the spell. This kind of spell does require the player to be a minimum smart about it. Like charming spells or illusions spells. Like most spells in general except the direct-damaging ones in fact.
    So, like with other spells of this kind, to make the most out of it you have to work with other abilities either alone of with teamwork from friends.

    Basically, most of your critic on the aforementioned spells is based on the fact that these tactics require some wits and planning. Well, that just mean these are not for you, nothing else. ;)

    I agree on most of your other critics though (I "pass" about Phantasmal Force, not enough experience with the spell either as a DM or as a player to really have any useful opinion)
    Last edited by Citan; 2017-06-01 at 05:08 AM.

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    Default Re: A list of 31 core spell exploits

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Theoretically a Bard could use them with his class ability, and yes I was also thinking about Warlock ( Even made a guide about it once ) with familiar, and as for concentration, I think what happens when you cast a concentration spell while concentrating, it just basically breaks you last concentration, but the new concentration spell is still cast, at least that's how it works in official WOTC sessions, Critical Role, etc... so theoretically I think you can do Scrying, and then Tsunami and Storm for the initial damage as they appear, although you would no longer be able to see them afterwards so some might rule this breaks off the spell. However initial damage should still work. And of course full damage with familiars or other methods.
    Tsunami actually has a casting time more than 1 Action, so that requires concentration while casting and breaks Concentration on any other spell, per the PHB.

    As for when Concentration takes effect when casting a spell I go by this Crawford tweet:

    "11 Apr 15
    Mr.EffYou @PopeJewish
    @JeremyECrawford If I'm using a spell that require concentration, can I cast other spells or cantrips or will that break the concentration?

    Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
    @PopeJewish While concentrating on a spell, casting another spell doesn't break your concentration unless the second spell also requires it.
    1:21 PM - 11 Apr 2015"

    Officially, this means Concentration is broken during casting. I don't know how other DMs rule it in games, and feel free to rule otherwise at your table, but RAW, it would not work.

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