One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

[Razade]

Well yeah, that his pants dont catch on fire or burn away is actually excellent argumentation for why this is a case of armament Haki.
And him being stronger is really not a explanation for why he can activate Diable Jambe without spinning, unless its done for a large part though Haki.
(or whatever weird spirit power Zorro has)

Luffy gained fire powers (Red Hawk) and it doesn't burn his clothing and it has nothing to do with Haki.

[Cizak]

Yes, and later on he does Diable Jambe without spinning. So i dont really trust in his explanation that much. Its far out even for OP.

Further out than a Rokushiki user being able to use their finger as a bullet without breaking it? Than a ranged slashing attack caused by a kick? Than any Rokushiki technique really, which we've been told are available to anyone who just train their body to be tough enough? Than a 1 ton bomb on a stick that's unaffected by exploding and safe for the wielder to use? Than ranged sword attacks? Than being able to double the size of your biceps for a single attack? Than a sling shot having longer range than rifles?

All of these are techniques used by humans without neither devil fruit powers nor haki. If you recall, when Luffy defeats Bacura on Amazon Lily, the Kujas are amazed that he did it "with brute force alone". That scene is there specifically to show how ludicrously strong Luffy (and by extension the SH pirates) are without the use of haki.

Spinning your leg to make it hot is just another manga superhuman power out of thousands. It really isn't much further out than anything else.

And him being stronger is really not a explanation for why he can activate Diable Jambe without spinning

Sure it is. Just like Zoro has learned to cut through metal without a five minute mental excercise and Luffy being able to activate his G2 more efficently, "being stronger" is a perfectly reasonable explanation in a manga as to how character's fighting styles get easier to use as time progresses. Add to that the fact that we've seen Sanji literally burst into flames from pure anger alone as well as learn moves for stupid/funny reasons ("I learned to run on air because I had to get away from drag queens"), and yes, post-timeskip haki, being able to activate DJ without spinning is not that weird.

And none of this negates the fact that pre-timeskip, the way to activate it was spinning and not haki.

[Traab]

Luffy gained fire powers (Red Hawk) and it doesn't burn his clothing and it has nothing to do with Haki.

It has EVERYTHING to do with haki! When has he ever used red hawk without using armament haki? Plus does the fire even touch his clothes? In this link it doesnt look like it reaches his short sleeves. Same for the doflamingo fight. Its his bare arm, clad in armament haki catching fire.

[Razade]

It has EVERYTHING to do with haki! When has he ever used red hawk without using armament haki? Plus does the fire even touch his clothes? In this link it doesnt look like it reaches his short sleeves. Same for the doflamingo fight. Its his bare arm, clad in armament haki catching fire.

It doesn't, it has everything to do with friction. He based the attack on Ace, not because of anything Haki related. I mean...they say this in the manga itself.

[Traab]

It doesn't, it has everything to do with friction. He based the attack on Ace, not because of anything Haki related. I mean...they say this in the manga itself.

Yeah but he couldnt USE the move without haki protecting his rubbery arms from melting. It would be like trying to use gear 4 without haki, its a vital part of the process.

[Razade]

Yeah but he couldnt USE the move without haki protecting his rubbery arms from melting. It would be like trying to use gear 4 without haki, its a vital part of the process.

They never say that. Ever. At no point do they say he CAN'T use it without Haki. Cite your source from the Manga, Please.

[Traab]

They never say that. Ever. At no point do they say he CAN'T use it without Haki. Cite your source from the Manga, Please.

Show me one single time where he did. Cite your source from the manga please. You are the one arguing he doesnt need to follow the steps he clearly follows every single time so its on you to prove your point.

[Razade]

Show me one single time where he did. Cite your source from the manga please. You are the one arguing he doesnt need to follow the steps he clearly follows every single time so its on you to prove your point.

The burden of proof rests on YOU my friend. You're claiming he needs Haki to use Red Hawk. That it's actually part of Haki and not Luffy's own powers and such. Because as far as I recall they never say that. I'm not arguing that it's not. I'm arguing that we've got no way of knowing that and please cite your damn sources if you've seen it said otherwise. Otherwise it's just speculation and, as is so often the case in this thread, personal fanfiction.

[Traab]

The burden of proof rests on YOU my friend. You're claiming he needs Haki to use Red Hawk. That it's actually part of Haki and not Luffy's own powers and such. Because as far as I recall they never say that. I'm not arguing that it's not. I'm arguing that we've got no way of knowing that and please cite your damn sources if you've seen it said otherwise. Otherwise it's just speculation and, as is so often the case in this thread, personal fanfiction.

You are the one ignoring all the evidence. Every single solitary time luffy uses red hawk, he uses haki first. You are the one claiming that doesnt mean anything. So no, what im relying on is actual canon evidence, your denial of that evidence is empty fanfiction. You might as well claim sanji could go third gear because we havent seen any direct statements that say he cant.

[lord_khaine]

I also dont believe we have been given an actual explanation of how Red Hawk works. And we have straight up been shown that armament Haki can take the shape of flames in the Amazon lilly fight with the Gorgon sisters.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

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Luffy realizes the ultimate thing to do with Katakuri is to just be an ******* and run away. He ends up running into Brulee and escapes to Nut Island...from frying pan into fire.txt

That's...about it. Though, we do get a snippet of Sanji's wedding cake. It's so good it can literally kill you. Jeez man. I wonder if we'll get a Souma's Food War reference...

[lord_khaine]

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It is nice with a bit more help establising that even after the timeskip, then there is still opponents of a weight class thats a little to much for Luffy. Dogtooth is clearly one of them, he can keep up with Gear 4, and are smart enough to not allow luffy a break. But Luffy's expression when comming across Brulle were just hilarious"

[Tvtyrant]

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I rather enjoy the transformation of Luffy's fights that has been going on. For a long time he won by pure determination, then they moved to "lose the first fight win the second," now they have him work out the oppoets weakness first and then exploit it later in a second fight.

Also I really want Sanji to beat seven Hells out of his brothers for his big fight. I was disappointed they didn't have him beat Virgo in Punk Hazard, it would be nice to get him in.

[Cizak]

And we have straight up been shown that armament Haki can take the shape of flames in the Amazon lilly fight with the Gorgon sisters.

Source? The closest thing I can find is this, and that's Marigold clearly using a match to set herself on fire, not her haki itself being the fire.

[lord_khaine]

Source? The closest thing I can find is this, and that's Marigold clearly using a match to set herself on fire, not her haki itself being the fire.

Well.. to me it seems more like she is using the match as a catalyst. To start with then people are normally not flameable, but all she has to do is to light a match and her entire body burst into flames. Without affecting her in any way. And she continues to burn.

[Cizak]

Well.. to me it seems more like she is using the match as a catalyst. To start with then people are normally not flameable, but all she has to do is to light a match and her entire body burst into flames. Without affecting her in any way. And she continues to burn.

And people with the power to turn into a snake don't normally have hair-manipulation powers either, except when they apparently do. Still waiting for a source on haki taking the physical shape of fire, or even being flammable.

[Kato]

New chapter!

Spoiler

Show

Luffy realizes the ultimate thing to do with Katakuri is to just be an ******* and run away. He ends up running into Brulee and escapes to Nut Island...from frying pan into fire.txt

That's...about it. Though, we do get a snippet of Sanji's wedding cake. It's so good it can literally kill you. Jeez man. I wonder if we'll get a Souma's Food War reference...

Well, I' argue a berserker is not as bad an enemy as a genius with almost the strength of a berserker. I mean, he's in a bad situation, but I'd say better than before. Though, he's got ore enemies now...

Also... Please don't? I REALLY don't want to see Mom have a... tasting reaction...

Spoiler

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It is nice with a bit more help establising that even after the timeskip, then there is still opponents of a weight class thats a little to much for Luffy. Dogtooth is clearly one of them, he can keep up with Gear 4, and are smart enough to not allow luffy a break. But Luffy's expression when comming across Brulle were just hilarious"

Oda is always at his best when he is being silly.. and the faces he can do are some of the best parts of the story. (Or they scar you for life)

[LaZodiac]

And people with the power to turn into a snake don't normally have hair-manipulation powers either, except when they apparently do. Still waiting for a source on haki taking the physical shape of fire, or even being flammable.

The joke is that Haki makes your stuff turn black. Black rubber is vulcanized, which is a treatment you do to rubber to make it harder and stronger that involves setting it on fire.

He uses Armament Haki to set his arm on fire and it's in reference to that process of vulcanization. Get over yourself.

And for the record the hair manipulation is in reference to the Gorgon.

Also if you want to get technical, because I've decided to actually look this up, while it's never stated how it works, we've seen how this works underwater. Luffy, with Gear Second on, pulls back his fist. Once it hits the "finish" of teh cocking (like a gun, which is his theme remember), it bursts into flames as the Haki appears. This is how it's shown in the anime, and thus can be considered canon. He uses the Haki to make the fire. Done.

And here is a gif in case you say "well show me or it doesn't count" you baby child. He pulls back his fist in gear second, the fist starts to turn black from Haki being put on, and then it bursts into flames.

[Cizak]

*Stuff about Red Hawk.*

Yes hello, I have never argued against the usage of haki in RH, ever. I have argued against 1) Pre-timeskip Diable Jambe being a result of anything other than spinning, and 2) the haki of Marigold (a non-rubber person) being flammable and/or taking on the physical shape of fire.

So if you want to argue against me, you could start by actually adressing points I have made. And then you can quickly follow that up with not making personal insults. I you can't manage that, you are very welcome to sod off and not engage with me.

EDIT: There was this single paragraph actually addressing something relating to what I've written:

And for the record the hair manipulation is in reference to the Gorgon.

And Marigold setting herself on fire is a reference to the mythical salamander. So if you want to use those type of properties as arguments, her flammable properties are more likely to actually be part of her Salamander fruit than her haki.

[Razade]

The joke is that Haki makes your stuff turn black. Black rubber is vulcanized, which is a treatment you do to rubber to make it harder and stronger that involves setting it on fire.

He uses Armament Haki to set his arm on fire and it's in reference to that process of vulcanization. Get over yourself.

Except it turns skin black...and blades...and everything else. Because that's a better way of showing the reader that Haki is being used than just letting people assume. Because otherwise you get situations like we're currently in, with people pointing to the same evidence and getting wildly different results.

Also if you want to get technical, because I've decided to actually look this up, while it's never stated how it works, we've seen how this works underwater. Luffy, with Gear Second on, pulls back his fist. Once it hits the "finish" of teh cocking (like a gun, which is his theme remember), it bursts into flames as the Haki appears. This is how it's shown in the anime, and thus can be considered canon. He uses the Haki to make the fire. Done.

I mean...the anime isn't canon. None of the filler arcs are canon. The anime adds a ton of stuff that isn't in the manga with no input or regard from Oda or any of the other staff that works on One Piece. So...no. It can't be considered canon. I suppose you want it to be considered canon because it backs up your point but I imagine if I start pulling nonsense from the filler arcs you're going to say "well that isn't canon because it's filler!" and I'll have to retort "moving the goalposts" and why don't we just skip that. Or maybe you wouldn't do that. Who knows. Who cares really. Anime isn't canon.

And here is a gif in case you say "well show me or it doesn't count" you baby child. He pulls back his fist in gear second, the fist starts to turn black from Haki being put on, and then it bursts into flames.

Yeah, how dare people ask you to provide evidence! Those darn people, wanting you to back your comments up with hard proof instead of "I just feel it" or "well, it's my headcanon" or any other excuse to explain away whatever pet theory you may be holding. It's cool, lots of people have it.

Monet is going to be a Straw Hat.
The Straw Hats are going to go to the Moon and that's why they need Monet to join them, because she's an astronomer.
Carrot is going to get the Yuki Yuki no Mi because it had a snow bunny attack.
Carrot is going to be the 10th Straw Hat because...pick a reason. There are plenty.
Zoro is going to leave the Straw Hats and join Kaido because he's the strongest and because Sanji left the crew like Usopp and taking him back would dishonor the crew.
Zoro is going to die at the hands of Kaido and Mihawk is going to join the Straw Hats.
Blackbeard is going to get a third Devil Fruit.
Crocodile is an Okama or was at least a woman before.


I mean really. Take your pick. Far be it from me to trash your pet theory. Just don't ask me to take it seriously and don't be offended when I tell you to take it to some dark, dingy, gif filled corner of the worst parts of the internet. Aka. Tumblr.

[Traab]

Lets take your last example to show why your stance is stupid shall we? The crocodile is okama theory is based on literally nothing but ivankov knowing something crocodile doesnt want spread around. There is no indication of what the secret is, just that he is willing to kill or work together with his enemies to keep it hidden. Meanwhile the armament haki theory is based on actual in universe evidence where it only ever shows up when a very specific sequence of events takes place. Denying the clear connection is like pretending that people changing genders when ivankov stabs them isnt proof its her ability as they might just be spontaneously changing due to the pain. (Ignoring her confirming it for the moment) If people only change genders when she stabs them, not under any other influence, it never happens at any other time, then its reasonable to conclude that she is the one causing it. But you go on pretending you are some sort of scientific wonder able to pretend your version of events with absolutely nothing backing it is somehow equally as valid as someone pointing out that literally all of the evidence in existence proves they are right. Maybe next you can explain to use that the sun wont rise in the east tomorrow even though all the evidence in existence says it will.

[LaZodiac]

Yes hello, I have never argued against the usage of haki in RH, ever. I have argued against 1) Pre-timeskip Diable Jambe being a result of anything other than spinning, and 2) the haki of Marigold (a non-rubber person) being flammable and/or taking on the physical shape of fire.

Sorry, I'm quite checked out of this conversation and forgot which of the two of you were being a tosser. Razade has helpfully reminded me which is which.

I blame the photobucket hotlink purge. Fix your avatars god damnit.

[lord_khaine]

And Marigold setting herself on fire is a reference to the mythical salamander. So if you want to use those type of properties as arguments, her flammable properties are more likely to actually be part of her Salamander fruit than her haki.

Mariegold dont have the Salamander fruit but the Cobra fruit. It is mentioned somewhere in the area fight.
And i would claim that her lighting herself on fire like that is a very blatantly supernatural move that does require something besides regular training to explain.

Right now the potential explanations are-
A) Her Snake fruit.
B) Her Haki.
C) Her something else, we have seen a few abilities that did not enter this catagory.

But with Luffy's Red Hawk litterally bursting into flames, then i think that B is the most simple explanation.

I blame the photobucket hotlink purge. Fix your avatars god damnit.

It is kinda annoying, im bad at names, and for a large part i remember people though their pictures

[LaZodiac]

It is kinda annoying, im bad at names, and for a large part i remember people though their pictures

I'm good with names but occasionally people are stupid and make posts not worth paying attention to so I just skim, and having a bad avatar situation makes it hard to remember who's who. Fix your avatars!!

[Traab]

Im honestly not sure how to do that. Heck my last photo someone set it up for me after I posted the photo I wanted then sent me the link to use. So can someone give me a short tutorial? Because I can find my picture again just fine.

[Razade]

Lets take your last example to show why your stance is stupid shall we?

We shall!!

The crocodile is okama theory is based on literally nothing but ivankov knowing something crocodile doesnt want spread around. There is no indication of what the secret is, just that he is willing to kill or work together with his enemies to keep it hidden.

Every example I gave has just as much rationale behind it. It was the point.

Meanwhile the armament haki theory is based on actual in universe evidence where it only ever shows up when a very specific sequence of events takes place. Denying the clear connection is like pretending that people changing genders when ivankov stabs them isnt proof its her ability as they might just be spontaneously changing due to the pain.

1. Black Swan Fallacy. We have no examples of X so X doesn't exist. We've only seen White Swans so Black Swans don't exist.

2. No, we know how Ivankov's ability works because it was explained how it works. Conflation to its extreme.

(Ignoring her confirming it for the moment)

No I will not. Ignore how the two aren't the same thing? Ignore how your equivocation doesn't pan out and thus defeats your own argument? No thanks man.

If people only change genders when she stabs them, not under any other influence, it never happens at any other time, then its reasonable to conclude that she is the one causing it.

Is it reasonable? I sure don't think so. It's reasonable to conclude something when you have evidence. It's not reasonable to take what you think the evidence you think backs you up and then ignore ya know...basic reasoning to defend it.

But you go on pretending you are some sort of scientific wonder able to pretend your version of events with absolutely nothing backing it is somehow equally as valid as someone pointing out that literally all of the evidence in existence proves they are right.

The hell I do. Do you even understand how this whole burden of proof thing works? You're making a positive claim. I am saying "Your claim is B.S and your evidence tenuous." NOT "Haki has nothing to do with it". Just "I don't believe you're claim that it DOES so please cite your damn sources" with a healthy dash of trying to explain why your "evidence" is neither convincing OR evidence.

Let me...make this very very simple for you.

A gumball jar has either an even number of gumballs or an odd number of gumballs. You say "Razade, the number of gumballs in this jar is even" or "Razade, the number of gumballs in this jar is odd". And I'm going "I don't think it's even" and you're coming back at me with "PROVE THAT IT'S ODD THEN RAZADE!" when that's not my position.

Maybe next you can explain to use that the sun wont rise in the east tomorrow even though all the evidence in existence says it will.

Alright so.

The Earth (or planet) revolves around the Sun (our local star) at...well varying speeds but that's not really at issue here. Let's just say at about 1,000 miles an hour. This is because of a phenomena called Gravity. You see, things with mass exert a kind of...pull over other objects of smaller mass. The sun has an incredible mass while our planet has a far less stellar (ah, puns) mass in comparison. However our mass still effects this pull (and everything else around us, Hello Moon!) and thus we're not pulled directly into the Sun, rather a sort of compromise is built between the competing gravitational pulls which creates the elliptical orbit that we know and love for the Goldilocks zone we inhabit.

Now, since we're ON that planet we can't see all this directly. We'd have to go off our planet to measure that with...various satellites and probes and things. However the phenomena presents itself even on our local level. Due to the exact nature of that eliptical orbit it appears (to us on the surface of the planet) that the sun "Rises in the East and sets in the West" when it reality it doesn't "rise" or "set" anywhere. Because the local presentation of things isn't the full picture when you get outside of that sphere. Or in our case when you get outside your oblate spheroid. Now I can't prove this with 100% certainty but...I don't think you can prove anything with 100% certainty and I wouldn't really ask someone to do something I don't think they can reasonably do. I'm not 100% certain of that either though so...I think I digress.


If you could give me even a modicum of that kind of evidence to back up your claim we wouldn't be having this discussion. Like. At all. I'd very happily go "hey, guess you're right. How'bout that" and move on to the next baseless assertion the fandom seems to like to wank over.


Instead however you (and Khaine who...is even going further down the rabbithole of wanting to now claim other moves are all thanks to Haki having...magical flame powers apparently...) want to just keep shouting "We have no counter examples so we're right!!" and LaZodiac wants to call people stupid babies which ya know. Insults from strangers on the internet. Just about as hurtful as Baby Shampoo.

Mariegold dont have the Salamander fruit but the Cobra fruit. It is mentioned somewhere in the area fight.
And i would claim that her lighting herself on fire like that is a very blatantly supernatural move that does require something besides regular training to explain.

Are you...are you serious? The MOVE is called Salamander. No one said she had the Salamander Fruit. The move isn't even supernatural. She lights her hair on fire. There's literally nothing supernatural about that. It's a match. Hair is flammable. Like crazy.

Hebigami-Tsuki: Salamander (蛇髪憑き･炎の蛇神（サラマンダ） Hebigami-Tsuki: Saramandā?, literally meaning "Snake-Hair Possession: Flame Snake God"): Marigold lights a match and sets herself on fire, then forms her hair into two snakes on either side of her. When this attack is used with Sandersonia's "Yamata no Orochi" technique, it is said to be the absolute ultimate attack, for it aims towards the target at all possible directions and leaves no blind spots. The name of this technique comes from the mythological fiery lizard Salamander. It is unknown if the resistance to fire and the ability to manipulate hair into snakes is the result of the Devil Fruit or a Life Return-like ability.

OH HEY! Look at that!! No mention of Haki giving you flame resistance. But you all apparently know more than the people who produce the information books.

Im honestly not sure how to do that. Heck my last photo someone set it up for me after I posted the photo I wanted then sent me the link to use. So can someone give me a short tutorial? Because I can find my picture again just fine.

You need to find a new website to host the picture URL on because Photobucket is now charging you for that ability. I suggest Imgur but other people are using other sites as well.

[Traab]

The reason why I said ignore her confirming it was because I was using it as a hypothetical. In that, if she had never straight up said that was one of her abilities, you could make the argument that there was no proof her stabbing people was what changed their gender instead of some other random factor even though it literally never happens otherwise. I was trying to point out how its silly to declare that despite every occurrence only happening with this one set of factors, you are trying to pretend that isnt proof the factors are responsible. We dont have to have word of god from oda declaring that gravity exists to conclude that weapons dropped tend to hit the ground because of gravity and not some as yet unmentioned natural force thats totally different from gravity, it just has the same effect here. In absence of word of god contradicting it, there is no reason to NOT conclude that he needs to use haki first in order to activate red hawk. Its simple logic backed up by all available evidence with nothing to contradict it. Thats what makes it different from the crocodile is a former girl theory. One has no evidence to back it up. The other has all of the evidence backing it up.

[Razade]

The reason why I said ignore her confirming it was because I was using it as a hypothetical. In that, if she had never straight up said that was one of her abilities, you could make the argument that there was no proof her stabbing people was what changed their gender instead of some other random factor even though it literally never happens otherwise. I was trying to point out how its silly to declare that despite every occurrence only happening with this one set of factors, you are trying to pretend that isnt proof the factors are responsible.

Trying to explain away the fallacy doesn't negate the argument being fallacious.

We dont have to have word of god from oda declaring that gravity exists to conclude that weapons dropped tend to hit the ground because of gravity and not some as yet unmentioned natural force thats totally different from gravity, it just has the same effect here.

Further conflation. Boy but aren't you good at that.

In absence of word of god contradicting it, there is no reason to NOT conclude that he needs to use haki first in order to activate red hawk. Its simple logic backed up by all available evidence with nothing to contradict it. Thats what makes it different from the crocodile is a former girl theory. One has no evidence to back it up. The other has all of the evidence backing it up.

You fail logic 101. I also think the "Crocodile was a girl" camp would be miffed that you're just throwing out all their evidence. Because they certainly think there's more to it than just one throw away line. I mean, they even have official, From Oda(tm), art to back up their argument same as you. Hell, I'd actually say it's more convincing for their argument than yours. See only a few pages back where we had this discussion if you don't believe me.

This is very much an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. While you could, in some cases, be absolutely correct in asserting that the lack of evidence something occurred is evidence that it didn't....this isn't one of those instances.

[Traab]

Yeah no, you are wrong and dont want to admit it. I get that, but thats not my problem. Continue to alter reality to fit your view on things all you want, im done arguing about it with you.

[LaZodiac]

Im honestly not sure how to do that. Heck my last photo someone set it up for me after I posted the photo I wanted then sent me the link to use. So can someone give me a short tutorial? Because I can find my picture again just fine.

Upload the picture to imgur, link here: https://imgur.com/

Then post the direct link of the picture into the place you put your image initially.