One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

[Traab]

Yeah....that's not a power level really. There's no real stratification of powers. There's no numeric indicating power. "The main character can't beat X at this time" and then "can beat them now" isn't a level of power because there are other factors. Experience being one of them.

Defining power levels in the above way, Khaine's way, is to render everything a powerlevel and as Syndrome says. When everything is a power level. Nothing is.


If you want as clear an indication that there are no power levels look no further than the latest fight between Katakuri and Luffy. Katakuri is, without a doubt, stronger than Luffy. He's got him beat on Observation Haki. He's got him beat in strength and skill. Luffy still ended up winning. Not because he was more powerful than Katakuri but because he was more clever and just thanks to sheer god damned endurance. There are no power levels in One Piece. They're a fan creation to simplify arguments. Pure and simple.

If we really want to get down to brass tacks there really AREN'T power levels in the series because no one at any point mentions there being power levels. That's not how the story is set up. It's not how the fiction is set up. It's not how the powers are set up. In fact they're expressly stated to NOT exist thanks to Rob Lucci when discussing Devil Fruits. A Devil Fruit is as strong and effective as its user. No Devil Fruit is useless or weak. Even "The Strongest Logia" isn't called that. It's refered to as "The So Called". Same goes for the Gura Gura no Mi. No one at any point says its flat out the most powerful. There's always the conditional "So called".

Also Also. The Strongest Pirate. Whitebeard. Killed by a whole host of people. Didn't live up to the hype as far as powers are concerned.

First off, just let me say, im not suggesting that this is dbz where power levels are an actual, literal thing. I was more talking generics. As in, "Ok, at THIS stage of the story he was able to just barely defeat doflamingo, now at THIS stage he is fighting on par with a yonkos absolute best troops. Therefore, how would the rest of the one piece world think of luffys danger potential now?" That sort of thing. I mean, he has clearly gotten much stronger since dressrosa. He has demonstrated improved abilities with his base gear 4 form, introduced two new forms, and showed increased combat ability in various other ways as well. Im also aware that there is no "strongest devil fruit" I mean we just watched luffy fight against men made of crackers and sticky candy who are terrifyingly strong. As for whitebeard, I personally think he did a good job proving it. I mean, he started out the fight dying from his various ailments, took lethal injuries on like, 4 different occasions and still was a battlefield changing, army destroying monster in combat who nearly tore the entire island of marineford into itty bitty pieces as the BACKLASH of him striking akianu so hard his grandchildren will be born with a sore stomach.

[Razade]

First off, just let me say, im not suggesting that this is dbz where power levels are an actual, literal thing. I was more talking generics. As in, "Ok, at THIS stage of the story he was able to just barely defeat doflamingo, now at THIS stage he is fighting on par with a yonkos absolute best troops. Therefore, how would the rest of the one piece world think of luffys danger potential now?"

His potential now? His danger potential has been fairly consistent through the series really. What other Pirate has destroyed/been present at the destruction of the three peak Marine holdings? Luffy literally destroyed Enis Lobby. He's one of two Pirates (well...a quibble on the number here) to break into Impel Down. Not only did he break out, he broke in. Luffy staged the single largest prison break ever seen in a prison that up until that moment had only one escapee. He was present at, and survived, the War at Marineford and then went and rang the Ox Bell.

Destroying/liberating Dressrossa wasn't exceptional of Luffy and the Straw Hats. It's what they do. Hell, it's what Law was banking on. The Straw Hats make miracles.

Luffy's danger quotient hasn't really improved. Just his ability to survive has. He's as dangerous as he's ever been, just with a crew that's more capable and rounded out and with a bigger skill set. What else do you expect from the man who is to be the Pirate King?

That sort of thing. I mean, he has clearly gotten much stronger since dressrosa. He has demonstrated improved abilities with his base gear 4 form, introduced two new forms, and showed increased combat ability in various other ways as well.

He's had these since the Time Skip. Flat out says he's been holding them in reserve and he had to make them to survive the island. He's had Gear Fourth, just no threat to use it on until Doffy.

Im also aware that there is no "strongest devil fruit" I mean we just watched luffy fight against men made of crackers and sticky candy who are terrifyingly strong.

That's more to Khaine saying there are absolutely power levels.

I personally think he did a good job proving it. I mean, he started out the fight dying from his various ailments, took lethal injuries on like, 4 different occasions and still was a battlefield changing, army destroying monster in combat who nearly tore the entire island of marineford into itty bitty pieces as the BACKLASH of him striking akianu so hard his grandchildren will be born with a sore stomach.

It was more a joke about Whitebeard. He was monsterously strong and wasn't in his prive. It took all the Marines and then more to take him down. Man was a monster, but we're seeing that all the Yonko are.

[Traab]

His potential now? His danger potential has been fairly consistent through the series really. What other Pirate has destroyed/been present at the destruction of the three peak Marine holdings? Luffy literally destroyed Enis Lobby. He's one of two Pirates (well...a quibble on the number here) to break into Impel Down. Not only did he break out, he broke in. Luffy staged the single largest prison break ever seen in a prison that up until that moment had only one escapee. He was present at, and survived, the War at Marineford and then went and rang the Ox Bell.

Destroying/liberating Dressrossa wasn't exceptional of Luffy and the Straw Hats. It's what they do. Hell, it's what Law was banking on. The Straw Hats make miracles.

Luffy's danger quotient hasn't really improved. Just his ability to survive has. He's as dangerous as he's ever been, just with a crew that's more capable and rounded out and with a bigger skill set. What else do you expect from the man who is to be the Pirate King?



He's had these since the Time Skip. Flat out says he's been holding them in reserve and he had to make them to survive the island. He's had Gear Fourth, just no threat to use it on until Doffy.



That's more to Khaine saying there are absolutely power levels.



It was more a joke about Whitebeard. He was monsterously strong and wasn't in his prive. It took all the Marines and then more to take him down. Man was a monster, but we're seeing that all the Yonko are.

Yeah, luffy has pulled off various bits of insanity through his entire career (even if much of it has been suppressed by the world government) But lets face it, enis lobby, or impel down luffy, versus current luffy are two very different animals when it comes to combat potential. In impel down luffy survived by running away from his most dangerous opponents, not by beating them. He got crushed when he had to fight magellan. Then on his escape the entire point was to delay him long enough to escape. Current luffy would most likely hand magellan his wind breaking rear in a fight.

Enis Lobby is another good example. In it, the most deadly opponents, the cp9, were all WAY weaker than what luffy has faced since the timeskip. Going from damaging buildings, to destroying entire city blocks in power and durability. Lets just take the finishing blows as the easiest demonstration. In enis lobby, the big bad is taken down by a jet gatling gun attack that smashes lucci into and through a wall. In dressrosa, doflamingo is struck by an attack so powerful it smashes an area multiple blocks wide and flips it like pancakes as he hits the ground like a freaking meteor strike. Clearly, while luffy is continuing his trend of pulling off insane things, his strength and combat ability is greatly increasing.

Before the time skip, sending an admiral after luffy and his crew was utterly absurd overkill as we saw with kizaru. Now? Now it would probably be necessary if the marines expect to win. And it would likely be an actual battle this time instead of a casual stomp fest. I know he would still most likely lose that fight, but at least it would actually BE one. Which is my point here. Luffy is stronger now. He has revealed more abilities, he has defeated even more powerful adversaries, so I was curious about what people thought about where luffy and the rest of the straw hats fit in the current power structure. Yeah I know there is tons of variance at each tier. Like how moria is a freaking joke compared to, I dunno, mihawk, yet they are (or were) both warlords. Just a general estimation.

[lord_khaine]

That's more to Khaine saying there are absolutely power levels.

Thats because there absolutely is power levels. It is so obvious that im honestly shocked anyone can argue against it with a straight face. Look at a Marine soldier. Look at someone at captain rank. Look at the average Warlord. Look at the Admirals. Look at the Emperors. These are all very clearly different levels of power. Hence, there are absolutely power levels.

Defining power levels in the above way, Khaine's way, is to render everything a powerlevel and as Syndrome says. When everything is a power level. Nothing is.

This bit does not even make sense. Quoting Syndrome, an obviously insane guy, does not help things. But you cant -be- a power level.

If you want as clear an indication that there are no power levels look no further than the latest fight between Katakuri and Luffy. Katakuri is, without a doubt, stronger than Luffy. He's got him beat on Observation Haki. He's got him beat in strength and skill. Luffy still ended up winning. Not because he was more powerful than Katakuri but because he was more clever and just thanks to sheer god damned endurance. There are no power levels in One Piece. They're a fan creation to simplify arguments. Pure and simple.

Sorry, thats not an argument against power levels. Since it showed that, Dogtooth is indeed not without a doubt stronger than Luffy. Well perhaps in a bench press way. Not not in a fighting way.
Evidence is, Luffy won.

If we really want to get down to brass tacks there really AREN'T power levels in the series because no one at any point mentions there being power levels. That's not how the story is set up. It's not how the fiction is set up. It's not how the powers are set up. In fact they're expressly stated to NOT exist thanks to Rob Lucci when discussing Devil Fruits. A Devil Fruit is as strong and effective as its user. No Devil Fruit is useless or weak. Even "The Strongest Logia" isn't called that. It's refered to as "The So Called". Same goes for the Gura Gura no Mi. No one at any point says its flat out the most powerful. There's always the conditional "So called".

Sorry but thats the dumbest argument i have heard for something not being in a work of fiction. "it has not been mentioned by name, so it cant be there". Going by that logic there is a lot of things that isnt in OP. Like sex, or bacteria. Or the 3 laws of physics. Or well im not certain about the bacteria bit, but thats not relevant.
Anyway, funny enough, its actually also wrong. You mentioned Rob Lucci of CP9, who actually have a imperfect measurement for physical power levels called Doriki. That has been translated into Power Level.

Also Also. The Strongest Pirate. Whitebeard. Killed by a whole host of people. Didn't live up to the hype as far as powers are concerned.

Sorry, thats straight up an argument for power levels. If there isnt any power levels then everyone are equeal. But they needed an army to defeat WB, so he was clearly on a different level of power.

[Traab]

The main problem with power levels or rankings is that even within those ranks there is sometimes a vast discrepancy of power. Warlords are the biggest example. But Vice Admirals also cover a rather wide range of power and ability. The admirals seem to be the closest to even going by the fight between mr magma and the chillest guy around. But yeah, warlords... technically luffy has been "warlord" level since he first defeated buggy way back in the day. After all, dudes a warlord now. That doesnt even mention later fights like crocodile or moria. Then you have mihawk who is just ludicrously powerful, he regularly sparred with a yonko after all. Still a warlord though and not one luffy is going to be capable of beating any time soon. (Even if he wasnt already called by zoro)

I still cant believe that basically asking how much stronger you guys think luffy and company are now triggered all this. I was just confused because it would have been obvious had luffy punched big mom till she passed out that he was now yonko level, but he never even fought her, he fought her troops. Absurdly strong troops too be sure, but because of that it muddied the waters a bit on where luffy is on the list of pirates you probably dont want to mess with now. Does this push him further up the threat meter? Does it not really change how powerful he is considered by the world government/other pirates?

[Tvtyrant]

The main problem with power levels or rankings is that even within those ranks there is sometimes a vast discrepancy of power. Warlords are the biggest example. But Vice Admirals also cover a rather wide range of power and ability. The admirals seem to be the closest to even going by the fight between mr magma and the chillest guy around. But yeah, warlords... technically luffy has been "warlord" level since he first defeated buggy way back in the day. After all, dudes a warlord now. That doesnt even mention later fights like crocodile or moria. Then you have mihawk who is just ludicrously powerful, he regularly sparred with a yonko after all. Still a warlord though and not one luffy is going to be capable of beating any time soon. (Even if he wasnt already called by zoro)

I still cant believe that basically asking how much stronger you guys think luffy and company are now triggered all this. I was just confused because it would have been obvious had luffy punched big mom till she passed out that he was now yonko level, but he never even fought her, he fought her troops. Absurdly strong troops too be sure, but because of that it muddied the waters a bit on where luffy is on the list of pirates you probably dont want to mess with now. Does this push him further up the threat meter? Does it not really change how powerful he is considered by the world government/other pirates?

It just seems a bit silly, this is a shonen so the cosmic treadmill is eternal. The answer is whoever the big bad is they will be just slightly stronger then Luffy but he will win anyway through pluck and grit.

In universe terms Luffy is now strong enough that if every normal person on the planet attacked him at once with swords and bows he would win.

[Traab]

It just seems a bit silly, this is a shonen so the cosmic treadmill is eternal. The answer is whoever the big bad is they will be just slightly stronger then Luffy but he will win anyway through pluck and grit.

In universe terms Luffy is now strong enough that if every normal person on the planet attacked him at once with swords and bows he would win.

Well yeah, but thats because 99.995% of them would kill each other instead due to the lack of ability to target one person with 5 billion other people at the same time. /whistles innocently. In all seriousness, it really looks like oda is doing his best to avoid the endless treadmill of growing power. I mean, we were introduced to the final big bads fairly early on in the series, and barring the gorusei suddenly revealing that they are each capable of obliterating fleet admiral level opponents and taking the field, its not likely there will be "real" threats revealed after luffy gets done dealing with the admirals and yonko in various ways. In other words, no, I dont think the real akianu will reveal himself after luffy beats up the guy who has been claiming to be the real deal, only to be devoured by whatever kaguya expy shattered the world in her grand design to be reborn through the finding of one piece.

[lord_khaine]

The main problem with power levels or rankings is that even within those ranks there is sometimes a vast discrepancy of power. Warlords are the biggest example. But Vice Admirals also cover a rather wide range of power and ability. The admirals seem to be the closest to even going by the fight between mr magma and the chillest guy around. But yeah, warlords... technically luffy has been "warlord" level since he first defeated buggy way back in the day. After all, dudes a warlord now. That doesnt even mention later fights like crocodile or moria. Then you have mihawk who is just ludicrously powerful, he regularly sparred with a yonko after all. Still a warlord though and not one luffy is going to be capable of beating any time soon. (Even if he wasnt already called by zoro)

Thats only a problem if you make it. Just start by differenting between the warlord rank and the warlord power level.
Then look at it like something along the lines of levels in d&d. Equal level? Flip of a coin who wins. 1-2 levels of difference? One part clearly has the edge, but its still not something you would be your life on if you could avoid it. 3-4 levels of difference? Not something you want to bet on. Outcome likely determined unless one part pulls out a dirty trick. 5+ difference? thats going to be a stomp.

And i realise there are likely better systems to explain this though. D&D is just the one most people are familiar with.

[Traab]

Thats only a problem if you make it. Just start by differenting between the warlord rank and the warlord power level.
Then look at it like something along the lines of levels in d&d. Equal level? Flip of a coin who wins. 1-2 levels of difference? One part clearly has the edge, but its still not something you would be your life on if you could avoid it. 3-4 levels of difference? Not something you want to bet on. Outcome likely determined unless one part pulls out a dirty trick. 5+ difference? thats going to be a stomp.

And i realise there are likely better systems to explain this though. D&D is just the one most people are familiar with.

Yeah but the real problem is how difficulty scales based on opponents. As an example, Enel. The guy was a lightning logia type. Thats incredibly powerful for a variety of reasons. But lufy was able to virtually shut him down due to conflicting devil fruit ability. Dude was made of rubber so his attacks were greatly reduced. But that doesnt make him weak, its just that there is some rock paper scissors to worry about when judging relative strength. In a way, I actually like this, because as i said earlier, it seems to help with avoiding the whole ladder of power rankings that are so common to this type of manga. Yeah we HAVE ranks, but there is a vast range of ability in those ranks, and even then it can be offset by the wrong opponent.

[Razade]

Thats because there absolutely is power levels. It is so obvious that im honestly shocked anyone can argue against it with a straight face. Look at a Marine soldier. Look at someone at captain rank. Look at the average Warlord. Look at the Admirals. Look at the Emperors. These are all very clearly different levels of power. Hence, there are absolutely power levels.

They're...they're not different levels of POWER. Again, if that's how you're defining Power Levels then everything's a power level.

This bit does not even make sense. Quoting Syndrome, an obviously insane guy, does not help things. But you cant -be- a power level.

What does the sanity of a person have to do with what they say? If an insane person says "The sky is blue" he's right. Regardless of his sanity. Stop reading things literally, because ya know...subtext and context exist. Words can mean, in many ways, different things than what they say on the tin.

When everyone's super no one is, or whatever manner you want to phrase it, means that when everyone has that special thing it isn't SPECIAL anymore.

I'm using the quote in this manner to display a similar theme and as I descibe above. When you define something so loosely that it encompasses anything and everything it loses its ability to define anything.

Sorry, thats not an argument against power levels. Since it showed that, Dogtooth is indeed not without a doubt stronger than Luffy. Well perhaps in a bench press way. Not not in a fighting way.

It is. It just flat is. Luffy even acknowledges the fact that Katakuri is stronger than him and that it doesn't matter because he's still going to win.

Evidence is, Luffy won.

But not by power. Not by strength. Not by being STRONGER than Katakuri. Not by being BETTER than Katakuri. That was the point of the entire. Damn. Fight.

Sorry but thats the dumbest argument i have heard for something not being in a work of fiction. "it has not been mentioned by name, so it cant be there". Going by that logic there is a lot of things that isnt in OP. Like sex, or bacteria. Or the 3 laws of physics. Or well im not certain about the bacteria bit, but thats not relevant.

I'd be dumbfounded at how literal and obtuse you're being here but sex, bacteria and a demonstration of the three laws of physics have been shown in the series. There are just some assumptions you have to take to keep a fiction coherent and consistent. Presuppositions, as they're called.

But Power Levels aren't a thing in our world. So you'd expect them, to set up the fiction, to bring them up. They don't. Hence. They don't exist. But of course, you want to bring up something literally called Power Level in the series. And it's a swing and a miss for you.

Anyway, funny enough, its actually also wrong. You mentioned Rob Lucci of CP9, who actually have a imperfect measurement for physical power levels called Doriki. That has been translated into Power Level.

This is only actual physical strength. It doesn't, in any way, measure one's powers with Devil Fruits or other abilities. It's flat out stated as such in the chapter it's introduced and it's only measured by a single person. Also only measured by a single group.

It is not, in any way, a point to your argument. Especially because you point out that Katakuri may be physically stronger than Luffy but that somehow doesn't mean he's Power Level stronger. You can't have it both ways. If someone is physically stronger (as measured by Doriki) and that's a measure of Power Level but someone physically weaker wins against them then Power Levels as you want to define it are either meaningless or at the very least not important. And if they're not important...why even bother discussing them?

Sorry, thats straight up an argument for power levels. If there isnt any power levels then everyone are equeal. But they needed an army to defeat WB, so he was clearly on a different level of power.

No it doesn't. This is such...such terrible logic I can't even parse it. A lack of power levels doesn't make everyone equal. People have different strengths and weaknesses and they play out

Hence why I brought up things like "Ranking" or "Stratification". There is no Admiral Level. There's no benchmark to be AS STRONG as an Admiral. There's no level. There's no "Marine Grunt, Marine Vice Captain, Marine Admiral, Yonko, ETC" listing.

Different characters, at different times and different circumstances, are stronger or weaker than other people.

If that's not a slam dunk argument against any kind of power level in a series...I don't know what is.


Stop trying to cram your crappy fanfiction into a series.

[Sigh]

Yeah but the real problem is how difficulty scales based on opponents. As an example, Enel. The guy was a lightning logia type. Thats incredibly powerful for a variety of reasons. But lufy was able to virtually shut him down due to conflicting devil fruit ability. Dude was made of rubber so his attacks were greatly reduced. But that doesn't make him weak, its just that there is some rock paper scissors to worry about when judging relative strength. In a way, I actually like this, because as i said earlier, it seems to help with avoiding the whole ladder of power rankings that are so common to this type of manga. Yeah we HAVE ranks, but there is a vast range of ability in those ranks, and even then it can be offset by the wrong opponent.

Through a series of specific events you can extensively disable or momentarily kill the Tarrasque at levels lower than 15, and you can find no shortage of people who have researched and published online the means of doing so. Does this mean that the creature isn't difficult to fight or the right "power level"? Of course not, but that doesn't change the fact that it ranks among that power level for a good reason AND has specific weaknesses (or at the very least oversights in its defenses) that can be taken advantage of by an enemy looking to prosper.

Same thing in One Piece. Generally speaking there very much are tiers for how powerful a person or creature in this series is, but certain individuals can have specific weaknesses taken advantage of by their enemies in order to beat them. Heck, that concept is the entire conceit behind the tail end of the arc we're in right now!

[lord_khaine]

Yeah but the real problem is how difficulty scales based on opponents. As an example, Enel. The guy was a lightning logia type. Thats incredibly powerful for a variety of reasons. But lufy was able to virtually shut him down due to conflicting devil fruit ability. Dude was made of rubber so his attacks were greatly reduced. But that doesnt make him weak, its just that there is some rock paper scissors to worry about when judging relative strength. In a way, I actually like this, because as i said earlier, it seems to help with avoiding the whole ladder of power rankings that are so common to this type of manga. Yeah we HAVE ranks, but there is a vast range of ability in those ranks, and even then it can be offset by the wrong opponent.

But that also straight up acknowledge what i have been trying to explain. That there are differences in power level. Hence, there is power levels in dragon ball.
If there wasnt, then Luffy would not have needed a Scissor < Rock advantage to win.

They're...they're not different levels of POWER. Again, if that's how you're defining Power Levels then everything's a power level.

Sure they are. Will the Marine Soldier ever be able to beat the Captain? No. Will the Captain ever beat the Admiral? No.
Different levels of power. And your really, really not making any sense whatsoever with your "everything is a power level" talk.

What does the sanity of a person have to do with what they say? If an insane person says "The sky is blue" he's right. Regardless of his sanity. Stop reading things literally, because ya know...subtext and context exist. Words can mean, in many ways, different things than what they say on the tin.

When everyone's super no one is, or whatever manner you want to phrase it, means that when everyone has that special thing it isn't SPECIAL anymore.

I'm using the quote in this manner to display a similar theme and as I descibe above. When you define something so loosely that it encompasses anything and everything it loses its ability to define anything.

Im going to leave Syndrome and his quote, because debating against that is a completely different subject. Sufficient to say i disagree with the quote and the way its used.

Also, im not even certain your correct there. If something encompass everything, then it would be in opposition to void, or nothing.
Its also not that relevant. I think the example i gave disprove that. Soldier, Emperor, Captain, Admiral, Vice-captain. I dont think there are any doubt about who would win in any given confrontation there. Hence. Things are defined.

It is. It just flat is. Luffy even acknowledges the fact that Katakuri is stronger than him and that it doesn't matter because he's still going to win.

I took that as physically stronger. Luffy was also getting his ass kicked though, until the pressure made his observation Haki grow.

But not by power. Not by strength. Not by being STRONGER than Katakuri. Not by being BETTER than Katakuri. That was the point of the entire. Damn. Fight.

Actually. The point of. The. Entire. Fight. Was. That. Luffy. Wanted. A. Power. Boost.

I'd be dumbfounded at how literal and obtuse you're being here but sex, bacteria and a demonstration of the three laws of physics have been shown in the series. There are just some assumptions you have to take to keep a fiction coherent and consistent. Presuppositions, as they're called.

But Power Levels aren't a thing in our world. So you'd expect them, to set up the fiction, to bring them up. They don't. Hence. They don't exist. But of course, you want to bring up something literally called Power Level in the series. And it's a swing and a miss for you.

Im puzzled myself at your insistance that there are no power levels, when we have clearly seen evidence of the opposite. Several times. So the way i see it, its several hits on a target that just tries to refuse its been hit repeatedly.
Because as such power levels are also a thing in our world. Its just, that being an immensely more compleks world, then our power levels are immensely more compleks.
A good example of this is boxing. There one of the sub-power levels are called weight class. Or Gender. Or Amateur/proffesional. But those also divide the fighters sharply in tiers.

This is only actual physical strength. It doesn't, in any way, measure one's powers with Devil Fruits or other abilities. It's flat out stated as such in the chapter it's introduced and it's only measured by a single person. Also only measured by a single group.

It is not, in any way, a point to your argument. Especially because you point out that Katakuri may be physically stronger than Luffy but that somehow doesn't mean he's Power Level stronger. You can't have it both ways. If someone is physically stronger (as measured by Doriki) and that's a measure of Power Level but someone physically weaker wins against them then Power Levels as you want to define it are either meaningless or at the very least not important. And if they're not important...why even bother discussing them?

I will repeat myself since it seems like your ignoring the important bit. "who actually have a imperfect measurement for physical power levels called Doriki. That has been translated into Power Level."

No, its only as you want to define them. I cant help if you intentionally try and twist the meaning of my words. Here. Im going to repeat the explanation i gave to Traab, since it seems like you have ignored it.

"Then look at it like something along the lines of levels in d&d. Equal level? Flip of a coin who wins. 1-2 levels of difference? One part clearly has the edge, but its still not something you would be your life on if you could avoid it. 3-4 levels of difference? Not something you want to bet on. Outcome likely determined unless one part pulls out a dirty trick. 5+ difference? thats going to be a stomp."

No it doesn't. This is such...such terrible logic I can't even parse it. A lack of power levels doesn't make everyone equal. People have different strengths and weaknesses and they play out

Hence why I brought up things like "Ranking" or "Stratification". There is no Admiral Level. There's no benchmark to be AS STRONG as an Admiral. There's no level. There's no "Marine Grunt, Marine Vice Captain, Marine Admiral, Yonko, ETC" listing.

Different characters, at different times and different circumstances, are stronger or weaker than other people.

If that's not a slam dunk argument against any kind of power level in a series...I don't know what is.


Stop trying to cram your crappy fanfiction into a series.

Sure it is. If you cant handle logic then you should not be debating things in the first place.
because, yes there is a benchmark to be AS STRONG AS AN ADMIRAL!!!. Its called more or less being equal in strenght with one of the 3 admirals. The same applies to an average Marine grunt or Captain. Your welcome to call it stratification. Unlike certain other people i dont try and make myself judge of what terms people use.

And stop trying to act like your the judge or author of the serie. Your name is not Oda.

[Cizak]

If you want as clear an indication that there are no power levels look no further than the latest fight between Katakuri and Luffy. Katakuri is, without a doubt, stronger than Luffy.

At the start of the fight anyway. And quite possibly even at the end, but significatly less so.

He's got him beat on Observation Haki. He's got him beat in strength and skill.

Until Luffy's own set of those skills started flourishing during the duration of the fight.

Luffy still ended up winning. Not because he was more powerful than Katakuri but because he was more clever and just thanks to sheer god damned endurance.

I read this fight as Luffy realising there is no way to be clever about this. There are opponents ahead that he can't beat by being clever. The only road for the future pirate king is to simply get stronger. That's why he went back to the Mirror World after escaping. He wanted to fight Katakuri at his full power in order to grow.

But not by power. Not by strength. Not by being STRONGER than Katakuri. Not by being BETTER than Katakuri. That was the point of the entire. Damn. Fight.

Stronger, faster, more agile, better endurance, better Haki, better DF usage, whatever. The point of the fight was that Katakuri was better than Luffy, and Luffy's only way to win was to become better himself. In the end, Luffy dealt better damage than Katakuri did and/or took damage better than Katakuri did. One walked away conscious and the other one didn't. It's not at all far-fetched to say Luffy came out of this fight more powerful than Katakuri.

Hence why I brought up things like "Ranking" or "Stratification". There is no Admiral Level. There's no benchmark to be AS STRONG as an Admiral. There's no level.

Sure there is. The marine ranks are 99% based on strength. You absolutely need to possess a certain level of power to be eligible for the Admiral position. They are known as the "Greatest military powers" for a reason. If there was no benchmark to be as strong as an admiral, the marines wouldn't have had to hold a World Military Draft, they could have just promoted any vice-admiral. But they didn't, because they wanted to find people who lived up to a certain expected level of power.

[Razade]

[QUOTE=Cizak;22927845]At the start of the fight anyway. And quite possibly even at the end, but significatly less so.

Until Luffy's own set of those skills started flourishing during the duration of the fight.

Katakuri still had him beat.

I read this fight as Luffy realising there is no way to be clever about this. There are opponents ahead that he can't beat by being clever. The only road for the future pirate king is to simply get stronger. That's why he went back to the Mirror World after escaping. He wanted to fight Katakuri at his full power in order to grow.

Absolutely. You don't grow fighting someone weaker than you.

Stronger, faster, more agile, better endurance, better Haki, better DF usage, whatever. The point of the fight was that Katakuri was better than Luffy, and Luffy's only way to win was to become better himself. In the end, Luffy dealt better damage than Katakuri did and/or took damage better than Katakuri did. One walked away conscious and the other one didn't. It's not at all far-fetched to say Luffy came out of this fight more powerful than Katakuri.

Better doesn't mean stronger. Better doesn't even mean stronger than the person you're fighting against.

Sure there is. The marine ranks are 99% based on strength. You absolutely need to possess a certain level of power to be eligible for the Admiral position. They are known as the "Greatest military powers" for a reason. If there was no benchmark to be as strong as an admiral, the marines wouldn't have had to hold a World Military Draft, they could have just promoted any vice-admiral. But they didn't, because they wanted to find people who lived up to a certain expected level of power.

Except they're not. It's based on if you have Haki or not. It just so happens we see the strong because that's how the story goes. But Kong. Never seen fighting. He's a desk clerk and he's the very ti-top tippest top Marine there is. One of the highest and most respected Vice Admirals? Tsuru? Never seen fighting. In fact, she's a medic.

Ranks in the Navy aren't based on strength. They're based on ability and command. And ya know...Haki.

[Cizak]

Katakuri still had him beat.

At the start of the fight, absolutely. At the end of the fight, quite possibly, argueably. In the end, Luffy dealt better damage than Katakuri did and/or took damage better than Katakuri did. One walked away conscious and the other one didn't. It's not at all far-fetched to say Luffy came out of this fight more powerful than Katakuri.

Except they're not. It's based on if you have Haki or not. It just so happens we see the strong because that's how the story goes. But Kong. Never seen fighting. He's a desk clerk and he's the very ti-top tippest top Marine there is. One of the highest and most respected Vice Admirals? Tsuru? Never seen fighting. In fact, she's a medic.

Ranks in the Navy aren't based on strength. They're based on ability and command. And ya know...Haki.

And Haki happens to be, whoda thunk, a combat ability. A strength attribute. An indication of power. CoO has certain usages outside of battle but is mostly used to be able to dodge and land punches better. CoA is used to punch harder and recieve punches better. CoK is used as a replacement for punching.

So yes, higher marine ranks are dependant on whether you know haki or not... because haki is part of the expected level of power that you need to possess in order to gain a high rank. Again, the Admirals are dubbed the "Greatest Military Powers". They are admirals because they are strong, because they are powerful in combat. That's the reason they got their rank.

Kong isn't a marine anymore. We know nothing about his reasons to leave the position of Fleet-Admiral. Like Sengoku, they could've been mostly personal. And like Sengoku, just because he got more of a desk job doesn't mean his strength and combat ability doesn't exist anymore. He's never been seen fighting, that's absolutely correct. From every other example in the series of how the marines operate, the reasonable assumption is that he's strong. But I suppose it's entirely plausible Oda designed a veteran military officer with comically bulking muscles and facial scars with the intent to show that he achieved his status by paper filing.

Tsuru has been seen defeating enemy pirates with her devil fruit. It's very reasonable to assume she rose to the rank of vice admiral in her youth and the didn't require the skill, drive or need to pursue the admiral rank, and now in her older days she's letting the younger vice admirals do the front line fighting. (All of this is, of course, the in-story reasons for a typical out-of-story situation created by Oda's writing style.) But correct that she's fighting considerably less than her peers. She is very much the exception, not the norm.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah not much happened this chapter, but it's satisfying to see Oven get baked for once. The Germa kick ass.

Also there are no power levels in One Piece. Enel is abjectly terrifying and could beat almost anyone, but Luffy is the exact counter to him. Mihawk is the greatest swordsman in the world, but he cannot kill Buggy by slicing him in half.

It's not in how strong you are, it's how you use it. BEING VERY STRONG helps of course, but it's not the be all end all.

[Traab]

That reminds me, haki works on logia types, but would it help mihawk cut buggy?

[Sigh]

That's a solid maybe leaning towards probably, but if Buggy ever actually improved in strength he could very easily boost his reflexes in order to basically "slice" himself before the sword hits him so it wouldn't actually matter.

[Cizak]

That reminds me, haki works on logia types, but would it help mihawk cut buggy?

Haki doesn't just work on Logia types. It also bypasses Paramecia powers such as Luffy's rubber body. Supposedly, haki should "seize the substantial body" of a fruit user while still not negating their actual powers. Is Buggy's "substantial body" hidden beneath a fruit power or is it always unprotected but still divisible? It can be argued Mihawk didn't even use haki against Buggy when he cut him because he didn't view it as a serious fight.

[LaZodiac]

That reminds me, haki works on logia types, but would it help mihawk cut buggy?

I actually had a discussion about this last night. Paramecia are "men of what the fruit is" so Luffy is a rubber man, Law is an operating room man, etc. Buggy's fruit, the Chop Chop, makes him "a chopped up man" 24/7. So he is technically already, and always, sliced to pieces. So cutting him wouldn't really DO anything.

[Cizak]

I actually had a discussion about this last night. Paramecia are "men of what the fruit is" so Luffy is a rubber man, Law is an operating room man, etc. Buggy's fruit, the Chop Chop, makes him "a chopped up man" 24/7. So he is technically already, and always, sliced to pieces. So cutting him wouldn't really DO anything.

Eh. The official wording is that Law is a Free Modification Human and Buggy is a Splitting Human. He's not always split, rather he always has the ability to voluntarily split himself.

EDIT: Or, well, as "official" as the descriptions the wiki uses get. Point is, every translation I've read reads closer to the wiki's than your version, so I'm not really buying it.

[ben-zayb]

That reminds me, haki works on logia types, but would it help mihawk cut buggy?

Armament Haki can still be evaded, it just makes the "intangible" tangible, which is explicitly the same thing water does to Crocodile. We saw it in Trebol's case via deception, in Katakuri's case via Observation Haki, and I could've sworn remembering Aokiji also doing that by deforming his body to get out of the way of an attack. I suppose Crocodile has enough DF control (isn't that his whole shtick?) that he can also make a "hole" in his body to evade haki-imbued strikes, and guys like Kizaru can just evade it with sheer speed.

Buggy, with enough DF control and a good enough observation haki, should hypothetically be able to dodge Mihawk's slashes

[LaZodiac]

Eh. The official wording is that Law is a Free Modification Human and Buggy is a Splitting Human. He's not always split, rather he always has the ability to voluntarily split himself.

EDIT: Or, well, as "official" as the descriptions the wiki uses get. Point is, every translation I've read reads closer to the wiki's than your version, so I'm not really buying it.

The Wiki gives more importance to fan stuff than official translation on some things, so I'm conflicted on how much I care about this. It mentions Katakuri as Katakuri, but it only lists Dogstorm and Catviper as their romanized names.

[Cizak]

The Wiki gives more importance to fan stuff than official translation on some things, so I'm conflicted on how much I care about this. It mentions Katakuri as Katakuri, but it only lists Dogstorm and Catviper as their romanized names.

What does romanized mean? The wiki lists these characters as their official Japanese names; Katakuri, Nekomamushi and Inuarashi, rather than Dogtooth, Catviper and Dogstorm. It also lists fruits as "X X no mi" rather than "X-X Fruit", so the wiki is consistent on names not being translated.

EDIT: It also seems to list the original Japanese wordings behind every "X human", but I don't know Japanese so I can't comment any further on that.

[LaZodiac]

What does romanized mean? The wiki lists these characters as their official Japanese names; Katakuri, Nekomamushi and Inuarashi, rather than Dogtooth, Catviper and Dogstorm. It also lists fruits as "X X no mi" rather than "X-X Fruit", so the wiki is consistent on names not being translated.

EDIT: It also seems to list the original Japanese wordings behind every "X human", but I don't know Japanese so I can't comment any further on that.

Romanization is taking the symbols and making it's mouth sounds be in english. Nekomamushi is the romanized form of ネコマムシ. The official english translation uses the full on translated version of Nekomamushi and Inuarashi, calling them Catviper and Dogstorm, so we should take that to be more accurate. And yet the wiki doesn't use that. Meanwhile for Katakuri, who is called Katakuri in the official release, they call him Katakuri instead of Dogtooth, the unofficial name that doesn't even make sense because that's not what his ****ing name even means!

Listing the fruits as "XX no Mi" is another example of rominzation, that is not really proper for an english language website. It should stick to the official release stuff. Since I don't know what the official release calls the Paramecia people, I cannot be sure if the wiki is accurate or not.

[Cizak]

The official english translation uses the full on translated version of Nekomamushi and Inuarashi, calling them Catviper and Dogstorm, so we should take that to be more accurate.

That's subjective though, right? I personally have a preferance for names not being translated, and a translation isn't an absolute. The Viz manga calls Zoro as Zolo but you won't hear me use that anytime soon, and I don't think many people would be on board with calling the Vinsmoke siblings Zeroju, Oneji, Twoji, Threeji and Fourji even though it would technically be correct. I can't really say a translation of a name is "more accurate" than a literal transcript of the sounds coming out of someone's mouth when they pronounce it.

[LaZodiac]

That's subjective though, right? I personally have a preferance for names not being translated, and a translation isn't an absolute. The Viz manga calls Zoro as Zolo but you won't hear me use that anytime soon, and I don't think many people would be on board with calling the Vinsmoke siblings Zeroju, Oneji, Twoji, Threeji and Fourji even though it would technically be correct. I can't really say a translation of a name is "more accurate" than a literal transcript of the sounds coming out of someone's mouth when they pronounce it.

pretty sure the official translation calls him Zoro now, but he's been out of the manga for awhile so I don't actually know! And I'm saying there are places where you should stick to romanization, and some where you should not.

To explain a bit, Ichiji and friends, their names do MEAN "one son" "two son" and so on. But their names are ACTUALLY Ichiji, etc etc, so it wouldn't be more correct to call them that. Dogstorm's name, meanwhile, is MEANT to be read AS "Dogstorm" regardless of language, it's just that Dogstorm would be Inuarashi in Japanese. This is the problem you run into with translation, and it's an important thing to think about as a fan. What is the more appropriate name for these characters? Translation and localization is difficult, but I trust Shounen Jump to actually get it right, especially in this day and age where they can just ask Oda what he wants them to be translated as.

[Cizak]

pretty sure the official translation calls him Zoro now, but he's been out of the manga for awhile so I don't actually know! And I'm saying there are places where you should stick to romanization, and some where you should not.

To explain a bit, Ichiji and friends, their names do MEAN "one son" "two son" and so on. But their names are ACTUALLY Ichiji, etc etc, so it wouldn't be more correct to call them that. Dogstorm's name, meanwhile, is MEANT to be read AS "Dogstorm" regardless of language, it's just that Dogstorm would be Inuarashi in Japanese. This is the problem you run into with translation, and it's an important thing to think about as a fan. What is the more appropriate name for these characters? Translation and localization is difficult, but I trust Shounen Jump to actually get it right, especially in this day and age where they can just ask Oda what he wants them to be translated as.

Judging from forum posts I've been able to find it was still Zolo a few months ago, but I too can't say 100%. Seems like an arbitrary line between "does mean" and "meant to be read as". Is it Akainu or Red Dog? It still seems highly subjective to me. As said, I personally have a preferance for names not being translated due to other, somewhat related worldviews. But if a name is translated, it's fine(-ish). I still wouldn't say one way is more "accurate" than the other.

[LaZodiac]

Judging from forum posts I've been able to find it was still Zolo a few months ago, but I too can't say 100%. Seems like an arbitrary line between "does mean" and "meant to be read as". Is it Akainu or Red Dog? It still seems highly subjective to me. As said, I personally have a preferance for names not being translated due to other, somewhat related worldviews. But if a name is translated, it's fine(-ish). I still wouldn't say one way is more "accurate" than the other.

That's fair, I just personally think if it's in the official release it's probably more official than a fan release, except in obvious cases of "Zoro is trademarked over in the west sorry rip". Akainu and stuff are probably fine like that, but given the potential confusion and frustration it's caused when people don't know their real names (because Akainu, Aoikiji, etc are titles) and the titles are given to other people, it might of been better to have them appear as titles like Red Dog. But that's an interesting thing to think about!

[Cizak]

That's fair, I just personally think if it's in the official release it's probably more official than a fan release, except in obvious cases of "Zoro is trademarked over in the west sorry rip". Akainu and stuff are probably fine like that, but given the potential confusion and frustration it's caused when people don't know their real names (because Akainu, Aoikiji, etc are titles) and the titles are given to other people, it might of been better to have them appear as titles like Red Dog. But that's an interesting thing to think about!

Fun fact: The Swedish translation (which is sadly discontinued) set out to translate literally everything to Swedish. No titles or names were left out. So when I first read the chapters with Aokiji, the admirals were introduced as Blåfasan (Blue-Pheasant), Gulapa (Yellow-Monkey) and Rödhund (Red-Dog), and I didn't think any further of it. Years later when I opened up some old volumes in a bookstore after having read the English fan translations, the Swedish titles suddenly looked silly to me. Funny how that works. I also remember Shichibukai being translated as Krigshav Sju (War-Sea Seven). That meant, grammatically, you couldn't be an individual shichibukai/warlord, you could only be a member of the collective Krigshav Sju.

Are you a translator? (That's a genuine question, not a snide comment of any kind.)