One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

[Sigh]

I will bring up that due to the stream of information in the world of One Piece not being the greatest (it's not like they have the internet in this world) most of the crew didn't even know Haki was a thing before they'd gotten to Sabaody, and despite having dealt with several Logias they'd gotten through it fairly well all things considered. Also, the Straw Hats that didn't obtain Haki weren't exactly sitting on their butts either, as shown in the Fishman Island arc they'd been mostly perfecting the skills that they were already proficient with (or in Usopp's case, "reclassing" himself entirely so his "build" wasn't so janky and unfocused).

Another thing to keep in mind is that not only does Haki seem to require a certain strength of mind to unlock but it also in most of its users seems to require some kind of key "unlocking" moment that comes in times of great stress, whether that be the numerous times Luffy showed off his Conqueror's Haki in the series leading up to the timeskip to the most recent examples in Dressrosa where (and I'll put this in spoilers since I don't think you're at this point yet):

Spoiler

Show

we saw both Usopp and flashback!Doflamingo unlock their Haki through stressful situations, Usopp when he needs to snipe someone important or else everything will be doomed and a young Doflamingo when he and his family are being tortured.

I can't remember when but we also see examples of this happening to Marine soldiers both during and after the Marineford War, the trauma of the events unfolding there seeming to unlock the Haki in their systems, most notably in Coby where he hears all of the screams of the dying all around him. In addition it seems that while everyone HAS Haki (confirmed by Oda in a Q/A, it's basically the manifestation of your spirit), not everyone has the ability to bring it out of themselves, as shown when Helmeppo was under just as much stress as Coby but did not unlock his Haki at the same time.

This works not just in-universe but also as a storytelling device, as extreme levels of stress has proven to induce changes in the body but also having characters essentially gain powerups through dealing with stressful situations or opponents is narratively satisfying to watch.

[Metahuman1]

I'm not checking the spoiler till I'm further in on the chance that your right and I would involve actually spoiling something.


As for not knowing, again, that works for most of them. (I find it a bit questionable that Usopp's mentor spent that much time on that Island and had no actual skill in using Haki but ok that can slide.) Robin, again, is the glaring exception cause even if by some weird twist Dragon can't use Armament or Observation Haki (I find that one of the most unlikely ideas ever considered.), he has numerous people that work under him that do know how to use both. And every reason to prioritize getting Robin proficient with them, because he knows he might need her knowledge/information at some point down the road to help with Opposing the World Government. He also does give a crap about his son even if for reasons of circumstance he has to mostly remain at a distance, and he knows that his Son will get himself killed tyring to protect a crew member that was in over there head. So the obvious thing is to make sure at least 1 more member of that crew is at a point were they are at worst unlikely to get in over there head. Making Robin proficient with Haki and any other fighting techniques he can while he can would be the best thing he could do on that front.

As for the stress to unlock it, again, that conflicts with what Rayleigh explained. Armament and Observation Haki don't require that. They require some training, but not intense stressors to be able to use them. It's why for example Rebecca and The very much not a hardened combatant former Fishman Island Queen are both Observation Haki masters. (Also taking into account that he did mention most people are better with one or the other and traing more with one or the other. Which makes a certain kind of sense. Some people are better with grappling martial arts. Some are better with striking based martial arts. Most who are good at one or the other keep training that and don't really bother much with the other. But the one's who traing hard in both have a lot more options.)

The stress thing your thinking of is unique to Conquerors' Haki. Which is an ability that you have to be born with and then unlock and then learn to use properly, meaning it's stupidly rare. Coby, Boa Handcock (I miss her she was fun to have around.), Shanks, Whitebeard, Reyleigh and if I recall right Hawkeye Mihawk and maybe Garpe have it that we know of far in as I've gotten. Oh, and what's his face with the drill head, almost forgot him. And Whitebeard is Dead.

That's it out of everyone, even the big name badasses, that we know about, that have that power.


I'm no criticizing Robin for not having it, or dragon for either not having it or not teaching it even if he does have it. I'm annoyed at the lack of tutoring the other 2 points.

And at Franky and to a lesser extent Usopp for not prioritizing getting gear that would offset those disadvantages. Between a Vagapunk Lab stay for 2 years and the long stop on Fishman Island were on they spent a big chunk of time being hero's with cash to burn thanks to the royal family there, I'd have figured those two would have gotten a bit of Seaprisme stone to do something with by now. Buuut while it's annoying in a vacuum it's less annoying. It's only bad when combined with the above gripe.





also as for Usopp reclassing himself, given that he still regularly get's himself into wild west pistoleer range for fights and then uses a sling shot rather then an actual long range weapon, and has gone back to a smaller sling shot that would have less range, I'm only making allowance for that as him being the weakest straw hat is the point, but even then stressing that a style focused on staying at stupidly long distances and hit and run ambush's is not strength, it's working around weakness would do that and allow for better use of him I feel. That one I'm least annoyed with though cause I know that's more a personal bias talking now.

[lord_khaine]

Not just that fight. It would have been immensely helpful at Eneis Lobby, Thriller Bark, and yes, if they had been fighting Kuma it would also have been rather helpful. And I doubt Chopper most of them would have minded it while they were separated since, again, merely being able to use Haki at all vastly increases your combat effectiveness over someone who can't use it in general (We had that confirmed for us on Amazon Lily that arrows that would otherwise just be vanilla arrows when infused with a little armament Haki could sink marine battle ships with 1 hit.)

It would also have been useful to be faster, stronger, tougher in general at all those places. Its only against the extremely rare Logia type DF that you need Haki. Otherwise its just something thats nice to know, but not needed to win. Luffy showed us that straight up at Amazon Lilly where he rather casually defeated a large group of Haki users.
(and pretty sure we did not get any such confirmation)

AS you said, a lot of time was put into drilling it into them all that they were not ready, and Reyleigh, Ivankov and Mihawk all had the exact same idea that ready meant at minimum, proficient enough in Armament Haki and Observation Haki to make sure that an opponent merely having 1 or the other or even both of those things, or merely having a decent Devil Fruit, was not an I Win button. Even if you argued that it didn't make sense at the time for Franky, Chopper, Usopp, Nami or Brook to learn any Haki use during the time skip, Robin was hanging out with Monkey D. Dragon, most wanted man in the world and someone everyone in the Navy recognizes as a personal powerhouse. Even the high level guys. The one's who tend to not treat none Haki Users as being that powerful or that much of a threat to the likes of a Vice Admiral or an Admiral. And we know for a fact that Dragon has multiple people under his command that can use Haki, and we know they had to learn it form somewhere. Given all of this, there is no good reason for Robin at least not to have come back with Haki. And frankly I think the fact that Frankie didn't come back with the kind of upgrades needed to be able to 1 on 1 a Logia type or other Hacks devil fruit user or a Haki Master on his own if he needed too is also abit questionable.

Those 3 were also the combat monsters. It can easily be that their mastery of their own body gave them a leg up when it came to learning Haki. Especially since there is good evidence for that they had all at some point used it unconciously before.
So thats why i will continue to stat that we have no evidence for a normal person could have learned to use Haki to a reliable degree in just 2 years. And that it for that matter dont help much without an equal increase in combat skill, as Luffy showed us at Amazon Lilly.
So it seems Robin focused on increasing her own strenghts, the use of her DF and her knowledge of the world.

As for Awakened, given the fact that the number of people so far on the series that we've seen that could be reasonably argued to be awakened in there devil fruit powers can be counted on fingers with out using all the said fingers, I think that would fairly qualify as "Now you have a special threat that requires the monster trio.".

Also, Sugars fruit can't be taken down by such a thing. They showed that failing. Contrast the Rust Rust fruit user who defeated Zorro and destroyed one of his swords, but was taken out by one of the others who wasn't dependent on metal weaponry. (I forget which one at the moment.)

I dont know where the bit about awakening comes in from, if its in reference to my comment about the rust fruit, then i only see that as something analog to Luffy's gears, not an awakening.

You keep mixing Sugars fruit and Sugar up though. All Sugars fruit does it letting her turn people she touch into toys. But she straight up needs to touch the person with her hand. That in itself is easily defeated by any sort of weapon reach. And no they did not show that failing, what failed was an assult by the Tonto. We have at no time seen an adult human fight Sugar with a real weapon.

Simple: It took them BOTH a good minute to register, and the one who reacted was Sugar, in a panic reaction that only worked because her power is Hacks. If it had been 1 arm with a hammer or something, she wouldn't have been able to get anything done until she was out for the count as long as it took her to register it in the actual exchange.

I doubt the anime is a reliable counter for the passage of time, it stretched it out repeatedly at dramatic moments. And again, being able to pick off a speeding Tonto means your reaction time towards any obvious danger surpasses a normal humans.

That depends on what you define as normal. Though that question feels a lot like moving the goal posts.

No, thats clarifying where the goal post is. You took it to mean anyone without a DF. But you really dont need one of those to be superhuman in the world of OP. Luffy has shown superhuman strenght from chapter 1.

[Traab]

Side note, I loved Boa. "JIIIIIIIINBEI!!!" The character is just too damn amusing to not like.

[Kato]

New chapter.

Spoiler

Show

Bege has a plan, kind of. But it involves Cesar being useful which makes it difficult. Luckily the Germa step up to get their pretty sudden redemption. I mean... it kind of works... but it still leaves a poor taste in my mouth.
But this makes sense. Without half their crew they can't possibly fight a yonko. Just like the time skip, Luffy needs to learn when brute force is not an option. When he needs to strategize and know when to retreat. It's a good thing for our heroes to be aware of their limitations and act accordingly.
So our heroes escape while the Germa... oh, eff you, Luffy and Sanji.

[Cozzer]

Spoiler: Latest chapter

Show

I don't really like how the Germa ass****s became sudden allies, but I really liked Sanji in this chapter. "I don't care about revenge, but I won't have anything do to with you guys ever again" is an acceptable resolution, I'd say.

And I loved the excuse he used on Luffy at the very end. "I told you not to fight, I wasn't talking to myself!".

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

I do like that though Bege is kinda a monster, then he is still able to love both his family and his men.

And i am also curious now, about just how well Luffy is going to measure up against one of the Emperors.

[Braininthejar2]

Spoiler: Latest chapter

Show

I don't really like how the Germa ass****s became sudden allies, but I really liked Sanji in this chapter. "I don't care about revenge, but I won't have anything do to with you guys ever again" is an acceptable resolution, I'd say.

And I loved the excuse he used on Luffy at the very end. "I told you not to fight, I wasn't talking to myself!".

They're still ass****s -they're helping out of pride.

[Kato]

They're still ass****s -they're helping out of pride.

Spoiler

Show

Well, yeah, we know they are prideful. But they are also crazy egotistical. And so far they were not suicidal prideful. Which is what they are now.

[Metahuman1]

It would also have been useful to be faster, stronger, tougher in general at all those places. Its only against the extremely rare Logia type DF that you need Haki. Otherwise its just something thats nice to know, but not needed to win. Luffy showed us that straight up at Amazon Lilly where he rather casually defeated a large group of Haki users.
(and pretty sure we did not get any such confirmation)



Those 3 were also the combat monsters. It can easily be that their mastery of their own body gave them a leg up when it came to learning Haki. Especially since there is good evidence for that they had all at some point used it unconciously before.
So thats why i will continue to stat that we have no evidence for a normal person could have learned to use Haki to a reliable degree in just 2 years. And that it for that matter dont help much without an equal increase in combat skill, as Luffy showed us at Amazon Lilly.
So it seems Robin focused on increasing her own strenghts, the use of her DF and her knowledge of the world.



I dont know where the bit about awakening comes in from, if its in reference to my comment about the rust fruit, then i only see that as something analog to Luffy's gears, not an awakening.

You keep mixing Sugars fruit and Sugar up though. All Sugars fruit does it letting her turn people she touch into toys. But she straight up needs to touch the person with her hand. That in itself is easily defeated by any sort of weapon reach. And no they did not show that failing, what failed was an assult by the Tonto. We have at no time seen an adult human fight Sugar with a real weapon.



I doubt the anime is a reliable counter for the passage of time, it stretched it out repeatedly at dramatic moments. And again, being able to pick off a speeding Tonto means your reaction time towards any obvious danger surpasses a normal humans.



No, thats clarifying where the goal post is. You took it to mean anyone without a DF. But you really dont need one of those to be superhuman in the world of OP. Luffy has shown superhuman strenght from chapter 1.

We got it from what's her name. the first Amazon that Luffy sort of kidnaps and then befriends on the Island before he even meets Handcock. He asks her about it cause the arrows seem like normal arrows to him but he saw they were doing WAY more damage then normal arrows could on anything they were hitting. And she offers that assertion as a response. But because she doesn't go into the full Details of Haki in it's entirety at the time, Luffy doesn't get it till Reyliegh explains Haki to him later. Which is also when he grocks that Shanks has Conqueror's Haki and The Skypieans had some members with Observation Haki.

And all the amazons can use Haki. Do use Haki. There even amazed that Luffy could beat off the executioner animal thing they had at the arena on just muscle power (and Devil Fruit but they hadn't pieced together that he was a Devil Fruit user at this leg of it.), and they wonder how monstrous his Haki use is gonna be. And yes, yes he does overpower the 2 sisters he's fighting. With Conqueror's Haki waking up under stress because that's a Conqueror's Haki thing. They are strong enough that it doesn't completely put them out, but they are also clearly still affected. And even if I give you a write off on that, he had to break out a move he needed to compete with CP9 (Whom are top tier none Haki users.) the 2nd biggest Giant on record (and it wasn't even enough for that.) and members of the 7 Warlords, whom, again, on it's own, was not even close to enough at that stage to counter effectively. And even though it wasn't enough for the most part, it was still so overwhelming that it was shortening his life span to do it even if later he did fix that flaw during his training. That I can recall this is the only time we've ever seen Armament Haki beaten by raw power, and one of only like 2 or 3 times Observation Haki looses to raw speed. (The latter ones other cases being Rebecca and maybe Skypiea.)

Contrast with the fact that otherwise not terribly strong opponents who would barely have been able to be mildly threatening to Luffy were borderline unbeatable threats for him by simple virtue of being proficient in just using 1 of the 2 types of Haki. (As an aside, those Logia fruits are getting more common, on Punk Hazard they were attacked by 2 logia users on the same Island from the same faction, and now that artificial Devil Fruit are established, I expect that sort of thing to only get more and more common.)



And even if none of that were the case, there is still Rebecca on Dessrosa. She unlocked Observation Haki not when dealing with the stress of the kingdom falling or loosing her mother, but when she was training with what she though was just a friendly sentient toy in a land full of them at the time. The pressure was absurdly minor on her and not constant. And yet, she is an observation Haki Master, but also not a strong fighter. She's no were close to the mind set of anyone we see who's truly strong (Robin tends to be much closer.) and she's easily overwhelmed by not even precisely super human opponent's. She has to constantly be saved during the Arena fights by others who, in essence, either take pity on her or have an ulterior motive. She, by herself, debunks the idea that Observation and Armament Haki require you to be particularly strong to achieve basic proficiency with. (Also, we know for a fact that a rules exploit and Observation Haki mastery is the only reason she didn't die the first time she was made to fight in the ring. That's it. Take Haki away, she'd have been a flashbacks only character. Haki makes all the difference.)



Also, no, it was pointing out that a fruit that by your logic was on Par with Sugars in terms of how hacks it is by virtue of being another Perimecia, was defeated when the crew were much weaker and with considerably lesser effort, and had a ready hard counter built in as many of the others have also had. Sugar has no such restriction on a Paremecia that seems to give her multiple powers and expansions on those powers that are freaking ridiculous even by the standards of the strong Paremecia types. Give the girl a good quality glove and she could take the guy who's job is to freaking be the one who holds the line at Impel down the way she's shown, and since no one yet has said "She's an observation haki/Martial Arts master." Just "she has this devil fruit that does...", conclusion drawn is the Fruit is doing it all and it's Hacks.



Luffy has been super human since Chapter 1. Luffy was also regularly destroyed or nearly so by just rock bottom capability to use any Haki at all, and so were the rest of his crew, and Devil Fruits that were once all but if not outright insurmountable in terms of there power, after he became able to use Haki, were suddenly quite beatable for 3 people on the crew, but all of them are targets and the other 3 can't even mount a defense against them.

You don't need Haki to be super human, but in this world by this stage of the game, you need it to so much as be able to defend yourself in more and more engagement's. And Dragon knew this.





Also, an aside from the last couple of Eps. Were Sabo's little friend who was holding his clothing while he posed as Luffy in the arena to get the Flair Flair fruit is doing her covert ops mission, we see her fighting and she's shown to have some kind of webbing between her fingers that's not really there.

Is the idea Hack has been teaching her Fishman Karate/Ju-Jitsu, or that she has a devil fruit of her own, or, or what, what was that about?

[lord_khaine]

We got it from what's her name. the first Amazon that Luffy sort of kidnaps and then befriends on the Island before he even meets Handcock. He asks her about it cause the arrows seem like normal arrows to him but he saw they were doing WAY more damage then normal arrows could on anything they were hitting. And she offers that assertion as a response. But because she doesn't go into the full Details of Haki in it's entirety at the time, Luffy doesn't get it till Reyliegh explains Haki to him later. Which is also when he grocks that Shanks has Conqueror's Haki and The Skypieans had some members with Observation Haki.

And all the amazons can use Haki. Do use Haki. There even amazed that Luffy could beat off the executioner animal thing they had at the arena on just muscle power (and Devil Fruit but they hadn't pieced together that he was a Devil Fruit user at this leg of it.), and they wonder how monstrous his Haki use is gonna be. And yes, yes he does overpower the 2 sisters he's fighting. With Conqueror's Haki waking up under stress because that's a Conqueror's Haki thing. They are strong enough that it doesn't completely put them out, but they are also clearly still affected. And even if I give you a write off on that, he had to break out a move he needed to compete with CP9 (Whom are top tier none Haki users.) the 2nd biggest Giant on record (and it wasn't even enough for that.) and members of the 7 Warlords, whom, again, on it's own, was not even close to enough at that stage to counter effectively. And even though it wasn't enough for the most part, it was still so overwhelming that it was shortening his life span to do it even if later he did fix that flaw during his training. That I can recall this is the only time we've ever seen Armament Haki beaten by raw power, and one of only like 2 or 3 times Observation Haki looses to raw speed. (The latter ones other cases being Rebecca and maybe Skypiea.)

Contrast with the fact that otherwise not terribly strong opponents who would barely have been able to be mildly threatening to Luffy were borderline unbeatable threats for him by simple virtue of being proficient in just using 1 of the 2 types of Haki. (As an aside, those Logia fruits are getting more common, on Punk Hazard they were attacked by 2 logia users on the same Island from the same faction, and now that artificial Devil Fruit are established, I expect that sort of thing to only get more and more common.)

Its really hard to follow what your responding to when you just quote everythingg like this. There is a lot of the things you mention here that i really dont see how it relates to what i had written.

But yes, all the amazons are able to use Haki. They are a part of a warrior society, and trained from birth in it. But Luffy is still able to treat them like armed children
And Luffy fight their 2 physically strongest members, who posses both Haki and and a zoan type DF. That does show that Haki is just another path to strenght, and not the ultimate path.
Because besides that, then we have not had that many fights between equals where only one side had Haki to draw examples from.
I dont think the example of Luffy's fights against Haki users telling to much either. Yes they would not be much of a fight. Zorro would also be a lot less of a fight without his Sword proficiency, or Crocodille without his mastery of his DF. So of course an opponent are going to be a mild inconvinience if you remove the training that makes them a danger.

And even if none of that were the case, there is still Rebecca on Dessrosa. She unlocked Observation Haki not when dealing with the stress of the kingdom falling or loosing her mother, but when she was training with what she though was just a friendly sentient toy in a land full of them at the time. The pressure was absurdly minor on her and not constant. And yet, she is an observation Haki Master, but also not a strong fighter. She's no were close to the mind set of anyone we see who's truly strong (Robin tends to be much closer.) and she's easily overwhelmed by not even precisely super human opponent's. She has to constantly be saved during the Arena fights by others who, in essence, either take pity on her or have an ulterior motive. She, by herself, debunks the idea that Observation and Armament Haki require you to be particularly strong to achieve basic proficiency with. (Also, we know for a fact that a rules exploit and Observation Haki mastery is the only reason she didn't die the first time she was made to fight in the ring. That's it. Take Haki away, she'd have been a flashbacks only character. Haki makes all the difference.)

To start with i will in no way call her a master. And also point out that she has indeed been training since she were a child, under the greatest warrior in the history of dressrosa. So she has had much more time to aquire a Haki skill than the 2 years the timeskip lasted. And she is straight up an example of how useless a Haki skill is when you dont have the fighting skills to back it up.
Also sorry, but that dont debunk the idea. The idea is that strenght and mastery over your body helps in aquirering a haki skill. We have the monster trio as examples who all showed off Haki before formal training. But we also got the mermaid princes mother who were extremely weak.

Also, no, it was pointing out that a fruit that by your logic was on Par with Sugars in terms of how hacks it is by virtue of being another Perimecia, was defeated when the crew were much weaker and with considerably lesser effort, and had a ready hard counter built in as many of the others have also had. Sugar has no such restriction on a Paremecia that seems to give her multiple powers and expansions on those powers that are freaking ridiculous even by the standards of the strong Paremecia types. Give the girl a good quality glove and she could take the guy who's job is to freaking be the one who holds the line at Impel down the way she's shown, and since no one yet has said "She's an observation haki/Martial Arts master." Just "she has this devil fruit that does...", conclusion drawn is the Fruit is doing it all and it's Hacks.

No thats your own logic, and you reading to much into things. What i said was that all DF's are by definition hacks. I have newer stated anywhere that they were all equal. You have made that bit up yourself.
And all that Sugars fruit does is turn people she touch into toys. Thats all anyone has ever said about it. And honestly, are you going to claim that someone cant be a martrial arts master just because noone has straight up stated that they are that? Are you then going to claim that all of Flamingo's fighting skills come from his DF as well? Or Marco's? Or any of the countless other DF users we have seen who are also extremely badass fighters?
The whole deal with Sugar is that the Tonto underestimated her. Because she is small, looks like a child, and normally dont fight. But in reality she were as badass as all the other members of Flamingo's crew.

Luffy has been super human since Chapter 1. Luffy was also regularly destroyed or nearly so by just rock bottom capability to use any Haki at all, and so were the rest of his crew, and Devil Fruits that were once all but if not outright insurmountable in terms of there power, after he became able to use Haki, were suddenly quite beatable for 3 people on the crew, but all of them are targets and the other 3 can't even mount a defense against them.

You don't need Haki to be super human, but in this world by this stage of the game, you need it to so much as be able to defend yourself in more and more engagement's. And Dragon knew this.

You need a reference for such a claim. I really dont recall any instance of rock bottom haki capability destroying Luffy.
But yes, a lot of the time you need Haki to fight Logia DF users. That bit has newer been denied. However as we have also seen, then a lot of Logia's are absurdly strong. In most cases just having Haki wont make a difference.
Even with haki, are you going to say that Robin or Chopper would stand a chance against Akainu? or Enel?

Thats why i think Dragon did the right think. Having someone on the crew who can tell who the enemy DF users are, and what their fruit is, thats a lot more valuable than just another set of hands with Haki. Especially when you do have the monster trio to aim at those targets.

[Metahuman1]

Its really hard to follow what your responding to when you just quote everythingg like this. There is a lot of the things you mention here that i really dont see how it relates to what i had written.

But yes, all the amazons are able to use Haki. They are a part of a warrior society, and trained from birth in it. But Luffy is still able to treat them like armed children
And Luffy fight their 2 physically strongest members, who posses both Haki and and a zoan type DF. That does show that Haki is just another path to strenght, and not the ultimate path.
Because besides that, then we have not had that many fights between equals where only one side had Haki to draw examples from.
I dont think the example of Luffy's fights against Haki users telling to much either. Yes they would not be much of a fight. Zorro would also be a lot less of a fight without his Sword proficiency, or Crocodille without his mastery of his DF. So of course an opponent are going to be a mild inconvinience if you remove the training that makes them a danger.

Luffy is running away almost the entire time. He grabs one person mostly because he catches her by surprise. The instant one very, very elderly woman taps him the fight and chase was completely over.

He only managed to pull off his stunt in the arena by doing a horrifically self harming technique and lucking into it catching them off guard so that he could blast through there defenses with something they were not going to expect. (Because they were busy comedically thinking he was a perfectly typical man and not taking Devil Fruit into account.) And by waking up to a 1 in a million power that they were absolutely not ready for or expecting. Prior to those 2 thiungs, he's getting treated like a toddler trying to go 2 on 1 with reigning MMA champions. He's being crushed and broken physically and with trivial, contemptuous effortless ease. He's physically in capable of hurting them and he's physically in capable of not being harmed in every attack by them, and the only reason he lived long enough to win was because they were being sadistic and showing off the power disparity and dragging out hurting him before finishing him to punish him for seeing there sister in the bath. Had they made it a point to just got straight for the kill, they wouldn't even have needed there devil fruit.

Also, look at the crow he blasts at amazon Lily vs. at Fishman Island with Haki. About half of the crowd is still awake on Amazon Lily, were as on fishman Island the only reason any none Haki users are still standing is because he was worried about friendly fire if he blasted them all.

Guess which crowd was overwhelmingly non Haki Users and Which one was entirely Haki users? Shockingly, the Haki users had way more people who actually got blasted who are still up and about. And THEY though that power was a 1 on of a kind ability that only there queen had.

To start with i will in no way call her a master. And also point out that she has indeed been training since she were a child, under the greatest warrior in the history of dressrosa. So she has had much more time to aquire a Haki skill than the 2 years the timeskip lasted. And she is straight up an example of how useless a Haki skill is when you dont have the fighting skills to back it up.
Also sorry, but that dont debunk the idea. The idea is that strenght and mastery over your body helps in aquirering a haki skill. We have the monster trio as examples who all showed off Haki before formal training. But we also got the mermaid princes mother who were extremely weak.

Well Luffy disagrees with your assessment. He called her one when she was fighting in the ring on camera for the first time.

The idea was that it required activating your Haki in a moment of intense stress and trauma, and that with out that you couldn't use any Haki at all. And that you absolutely had to be an insane top tier fighter already to have a chance even then. You asserted that both were necessary. Rebecca has neither. And neither did Fishman Islands Queen. As for them being weak with out the skills to back up that Haki, that wouldn't have been a problem for Robin with her Devil Fruit (and Dragon could always add to that. Hello Tempest Kick and Finger Pistol. ). Further, I will point out that Reyleigh made the point that only having one or the other was notably limiting.

Which is fine, Robins still not AS strong as the monster trio in that case. And there's still room for her to get stronger.

No thats your own logic, and you reading to much into things. What i said was that all DF's are by definition hacks. I have newer stated anywhere that they were all equal. You have made that bit up yourself.
And all that Sugars fruit does is turn people she touch into toys. Thats all anyone has ever said about it. And honestly, are you going to claim that someone cant be a martrial arts master just because noone has straight up stated that they are that? Are you then going to claim that all of Flamingo's fighting skills come from his DF as well? Or Marco's? Or any of the countless other DF users we have seen who are also extremely badass fighters?
The whole deal with Sugar is that the Tonto underestimated her. Because she is small, looks like a child, and normally dont fight. But in reality she were as badass as all the other members of Flamingo's crew.

Her Devil Fruit is explicitly the reason she looks like a Child. It's one of it's powers. It's explained as such and the Tontatta's knew that going in.

Her Devil Fruit allows her to force compliance of those she turns into toys. That was a power that was added in the middle of the battle that was never alluded too her having previously.

Her Devil Fruit explicitly causes mass amnesia that can only be broken by making her loose conciseness. This is a freaking arc plot point.

Her Devil Fruit explicitly allowed her to stay awake with out detrimental effects for over 10 years. That's a rather notable power that other people don't have.

That's 4 powers other then just turning people into toys. 3 of which we knew about and a 4th that just came out of left field to make things worse, that the person with freaking clairvoyance whom by now was established to be backing this whole affair evidently didn't know about. All Devil Fruit.

The only thing you could argue isn't devil fruit is her speed/reflexes/awareness. And that is never explained one way or the other. Sure, she could just be good at that sort of stuff like Luffy or Doffy. Or she could also be another Haki User like Rebecca or the Fishman Island Queen. Or it could be yet another devil fruit power, since, evidently, she's got a rather long list of them and can have new one's just pop up. I don't know, they've not elaborated on this and I kind of wish they had.

You need a reference for such a claim. I really dont recall any instance of rock bottom haki capability destroying Luffy.
But yes, a lot of the time you need Haki to fight Logia DF users. That bit has newer been denied. However as we have also seen, then a lot of Logia's are absurdly strong. In most cases just having Haki wont make a difference.
Even with haki, are you going to say that Robin or Chopper would stand a chance against Akainu? or Enel?

Thats why i think Dragon did the right think. Having someone on the crew who can tell who the enemy DF users are, and what their fruit is, thats a lot more valuable than just another set of hands with Haki. Especially when you do have the monster trio to aim at those targets.

Multiple Amazons having attacks that we had it made very clear to us could easily have killed him if they had connected.

As described above him only narrowly winning in the ring with Boa's sisters, and even then more by the graces of fate then anything.

Sandibody Archepeligo. The Marine Captain, not the Admiral, The Captain. Again, just has basic Armament Haki use. And no one in the crew working together could hurt him, but he could hit Luffy with attacks that his Devil Fruit normally rendered him outright immune too. Just because he had a bit of Haki behind it. Just a rock bottom minimum use of it.

It would be a fight she could at least participate in. She might not win against those 2 specifically 1 on 1, but let's look over at that Muck guy that she still couldn't even touch previously. Or Crocodile, suddenly, beating him becomes a possible outcome, were as before it was a forgone conclusion she couldn't touch him let alone beat him. Or that Navy whatever his rank is now cause he got promoted during the time skip. (The light fruit Admiral's Nephew, name escapes me.). Or being able to at least inflict injury on Trebolt or what's his face with the folding devil fruit power. Now that would be an actual fight. Which would be nice because now she could at least be involved in fights that matter, rather then just one more of 6 relegated to crowd control, and not even always able to pull that off.

Having someone who could ID people and fruit is good. She was already very, very good at. What she needed, by her own admission prior to the time skip, was to be able to fight better. And think of how much better that leg of the operation would have gone if she and Usopp could have dealt with Trebolt and made sure Sugar would stay down?







Though I will grant them this. The bit with accidentally founding his own religion was freaking slick. (And in light of one of the most famous Quotes from the Kamen Rider Franchise, kind of fitting considering Usopp is also Sniper King, who was very much something of a Kamen Rider Spoof.) I had to stop the episode I was laughing so hard. And Doffy deciding "Screw it, traitors, former kings and champions seeking vengeance, people who have kicked the world government were the sun don't shine 3 times, are friends with at least one Yonko and multiple other well established Warlords and even former Admirals and Fleet Admirals and Vice Admirals, I don't care about them. YOU! YOU WITH THE SLING SHOT IN THE CRUSIFIXION POSE!! YOUR THE ONE I'M PISSED AT!!!!!

[LaZodiac]

Though I will grant them this. The bit with accidentally founding his own religion was freaking slick. (And in light of one of the most famous Quotes from the Kamen Rider Franchise, kind of fitting considering Usopp is also Sniper King, who was very much something of a Kamen Rider Spoof.) I had to stop the episode I was laughing so hard. And Doffy deciding "Screw it, traitors, former kings and champions seeking vengeance, people who have kicked the world government were the sun don't shine 3 times, are friends with at least one Yonko and multiple other well established Warlords and even former Admirals and Fleet Admirals and Vice Admirals, I don't care about them. YOU! YOU WITH THE SLING SHOT IN THE CRUSIFIXION POSE!! YOUR THE ONE I'M PISSED AT!!!!!

God Ussop is genuinely one of if not the best jokes in the arc, and it's a genuinely really good and funny arc where one of the characters is literally a fanboy of the main cast who LITERALLY wants senpai to notice him.

[Metahuman1]

God Ussop is genuinely one of if not the best jokes in the arc, and it's a genuinely really good and funny arc where one of the characters is literally a fanboy of the main cast who LITERALLY wants senpai to notice him.

I really like that guy! Can we keep him? Add him too the crew? XD!

[ben-zayb]

I really like that guy! Can we keep him? Add him too the crew? XD!

If you haven't catched up to the part where his pirate crew gets revealed, you are in for a surprise!

[Kantaki]

If you haven't catched up to the part where his pirate crew gets revealed, you are in for a surprise!

The ship has to be the best part.
Best design ever.

[Braininthejar2]

hmm... I forgot that bomb was designed to be effective against powerful fishmen...

[Kato]

Well, I guess that's also a way to do this... Good thing buildings in OP have fewer HP than people.. I don't think it would have worked on anyone else there.

[Spacewolf]

Had abit of trouble figuring out who was where and what was going on this time might actually need to watch the anime to clear it up.

[Traab]

As a bit of an aside, anyone else think that watching the don flamingo battle you could make a great drinking game out of how often the guy coughs up blood? Seriously, im watching it in short clips, im sure im missing a lot, and still, he keeps taking gut shots that, in addition to launching him several miles through buildings and paved roads, also make him cough up blood. I know he had his threads holding himself together internally but damn, that cant be healthy. Take a shot every time he hacks up some blood and see who is still conscious after the final blow.

[Kantaki]

As a bit of an aside, anyone else think that watching the don flamingo battle you could make a great drinking game out of how often the guy coughs up blood? Seriously, im watching it in short clips, im sure im missing a lot, and still, he keeps taking gut shots that, in addition to launching him several miles through buildings and paved roads, also make him cough up blood. I know he had his threads holding himself together internally but damn, that cant be healthy. Take a shot every time he hacks up some blood and see who is still conscious alive after the final blow.

Fixed for you.
One Piece is a series where drinking games are either pointless or fatal.
Usually the latter.

[Traab]

This is more of a culture question. Luffy is constitutionally incapable of remembering most peoples names. Why does it seem to so rarely bug people when he does that? At least outside of comedic scenes. I lost track of how often he called donflamingo "mingo" or some such thing. For a guy as proud as fancy pink feather boa man I would have thought that would annoy him. "IM BEATING YOU TO DEATH AND YOU STILL CANT SAY MY ACTUAL NAME?!?!?" Is this some japanese thing I dont understand?

[Cizak]

This is more of a culture question. Luffy is constitutionally incapable of remembering most peoples names. Why does it seem to so rarely bug people when he does that? At least outside of comedic scenes. I lost track of how often he called donflamingo "mingo" or some such thing. For a guy as proud as fancy pink feather boa man I would have thought that would annoy him. "IM BEATING YOU TO DEATH AND YOU STILL CANT SAY MY ACTUAL NAME?!?!?" Is this some japanese thing I dont understand?

It seems people in general are fine with Luffy botching names because they think of him as an idiot to begin with, so it only reinforces that. He does say Doflamingo's full name at at least one point though; after beating Bellamy. When you've pissed off Luffy to the point that he actually acknowledges your full name, that's when you run.

[LaZodiac]

As a bit of an aside, anyone else think that watching the don flamingo battle you could make a great drinking game out of how often the guy coughs up blood? Seriously, im watching it in short clips, im sure im missing a lot, and still, he keeps taking gut shots that, in addition to launching him several miles through buildings and paved roads, also make him cough up blood. I know he had his threads holding himself together internally but damn, that cant be healthy. Take a shot every time he hacks up some blood and see who is still conscious after the final blow.

Reminder that his fight with Luffy starts right after Doflamingo stabs him with a bacterial knife that causes all of his organs to be destroyed and he's constantly remaking them with string to stay alive.

Dude's got a lot of internal bleeding right now.

This is more of a culture question. Luffy is constitutionally incapable of remembering most peoples names. Why does it seem to so rarely bug people when he does that? At least outside of comedic scenes. I lost track of how often he called donflamingo "mingo" or some such thing. For a guy as proud as fancy pink feather boa man I would have thought that would annoy him. "IM BEATING YOU TO DEATH AND YOU STILL CANT SAY MY ACTUAL NAME?!?!?" Is this some japanese thing I dont understand?

Put it this way. How would you feel if I called you Tarb from now until the end of like, next winter? It'd get annoying. These pirates, unlike you, have short tempers.

[Traab]

Reminder that his fight with Luffy starts right after Doflamingo stabs him with a bacterial knife that causes all of his organs to be destroyed and he's constantly remaking them with string to stay alive.

Dude's got a lot of internal bleeding right now.



Put it this way. How would you feel if I called you Tarb from now until the end of like, next winter? It'd get annoying. These pirates, unlike you, have short tempers.

Yeah they have short tempers, thats whats odd, donflamingo honestly doesnt seem to give a dang how badly his name gets mangled. Of course it probably helps that luffy is being called by like 3-4 names himself depending on which group is talking. There was one part I liked, when he bumped into bellamy at the Colosseum. Here Bellamy corrects him right away because luffy is WAAAAAY off. Like, Mingo is at least a PART of the bad guys name, this isnt even a physical description like he gives to bartholomew (I think he calls him crest head?)

[LaZodiac]

Yeah they have short tempers, thats whats odd, donflamingo honestly doesnt seem to give a dang how badly his name gets mangled. Of course it probably helps that luffy is being called by like 3-4 names himself depending on which group is talking. There was one part I liked, when he bumped into bellamy at the Colosseum. Here Bellamy corrects him right away because luffy is WAAAAAY off. Like, Mingo is at least a PART of the bad guys name, this isnt even a physical description like he gives to bartholomew (I think he calls him crest head?)

I must be tired because I misread your entire commment above and thought it was the exact opposite of what I actually responded to. Oops!

[lord_khaine]

Luffy is running away almost the entire time. He grabs one person mostly because he catches her by surprise. The instant one very, very elderly woman taps him the fight and chase was completely over.

He only managed to pull off his stunt in the arena by doing a horrifically self harming technique and lucking into it catching them off guard so that he could blast through there defenses with something they were not going to expect. (Because they were busy comedically thinking he was a perfectly typical man and not taking Devil Fruit into account.) And by waking up to a 1 in a million power that they were absolutely not ready for or expecting. Prior to those 2 thiungs, he's getting treated like a toddler trying to go 2 on 1 with reigning MMA champions. He's being crushed and broken physically and with trivial, contemptuous effortless ease. He's physically in capable of hurting them and he's physically in capable of not being harmed in every attack by them, and the only reason he lived long enough to win was because they were being sadistic and showing off the power disparity and dragging out hurting him before finishing him to punish him for seeing there sister in the bath. Had they made it a point to just got straight for the kill, they wouldn't even have needed there devil fruit.

Also, look at the crow he blasts at amazon Lily vs. at Fishman Island with Haki. About half of the crowd is still awake on Amazon Lily, were as on fishman Island the only reason any none Haki users are still standing is because he was worried about friendly fire if he blasted them all.

Guess which crowd was overwhelmingly non Haki Users and Which one was entirely Haki users? Shockingly, the Haki users had way more people who actually got blasted who are still up and about. And THEY though that power was a 1 on of a kind ability that only there queen had.

He did show repeatedly that the amazons were no real threat to him. And i dont know what you mean by one Elderly woman. It was Boa Hancock that caught him.

As for the arena fight. Then it was only the need to safe a defenceless friend that forced him to resort to conquers Haki there. His own life were not in any danger.
Because the same thing about playing with the opponent could be said about Luffy. It was a 2 vs 1 fight so already from the start he was at a disadvantage.
And its already back at the previous arc where he ran into opponents that was so strong he was forced to resort to gear 2 and 3. opponents who did not use Haki either.

The crowd bit meanwhile is not relevant because that was 2 different Haki blasts. One from untrained Luffy. And the other from a Luffy who had progressed to the point where he could use that trick at will.

Well Luffy disagrees with your assessment. He called her one when she was fighting in the ring on camera for the first time.

The idea was that it required activating your Haki in a moment of intense stress and trauma, and that with out that you couldn't use any Haki at all. And that you absolutely had to be an insane top tier fighter already to have a chance even then. You asserted that both were necessary. Rebecca has neither. And neither did Fishman Islands Queen. As for them being weak with out the skills to back up that Haki, that wouldn't have been a problem for Robin with her Devil Fruit (and Dragon could always add to that. Hello Tempest Kick and Finger Pistol. ). Further, I will point out that Reyleigh made the point that only having one or the other was notably limiting.

Which is fine, Robins still not AS strong as the monster trio in that case. And there's still room for her to get stronger.

Hmm.. i really cant find that quote myself. But wont put to much stock in a single comment or the specific definition of what a master is. Luffy dont have to much room for comparison, and its something thats translated from japanese. But i will concede she is a skilled user of observation haki.

Nope, newer did. Your welcome to go back and check my previous posts. What i said was that its highly likely that being an insane top tier fighter aids in learning to use Haki faster. From the fact that the monster trio had all instinctively used a sort of Haki before being trained.
And i would like to state again, that it would still have been a problem for Robin. Even with Haki she would not be a fight for the majority of the Logia users we have seen.
Besides that its really stretching the edge of whats belieable to think that Robin could lean both the CP nine fighting style whose name escapes me. A fighting style that it can take a lifetime to master. And Haki at the same time, in just 2 years. Especially when she is starting from scratch.

Her Devil Fruit is explicitly the reason she looks like a Child. It's one of it's powers. It's explained as such and the Tontatta's knew that going in.

Her Devil Fruit allows her to force compliance of those she turns into toys. That was a power that was added in the middle of the battle that was never alluded too her having previously.

Her Devil Fruit explicitly causes mass amnesia that can only be broken by making her loose conciseness. This is a freaking arc plot point.

Her Devil Fruit explicitly allowed her to stay awake with out detrimental effects for over 10 years. That's a rather notable power that other people don't have.

That's 4 powers other then just turning people into toys. 3 of which we knew about and a 4th that just came out of left field to make things worse, that the person with freaking clairvoyance whom by now was established to be backing this whole affair evidently didn't know about. All Devil Fruit.

The only thing you could argue isn't devil fruit is her speed/reflexes/awareness. And that is never explained one way or the other. Sure, she could just be good at that sort of stuff like Luffy or Doffy. Or she could also be another Haki User like Rebecca or the Fishman Island Queen. Or it could be yet another devil fruit power, since, evidently, she's got a rather long list of them and can have new one's just pop up. I don't know, they've not elaborated on this and I kind of wish they had.

Well fair enough, said DF is a walking contrivance of all the weird limitations and clauses it has. It clearly is designed to set up the rather silly resolution that frees all the captured toys. Thats clearly because Oda needed some sort of release trigger that did not involve killing her.

And the only thing i have been arguing is her own, is the speed/reflexes bit. We have seen that sort of thing a lot of time from training. She is old enough to have trained a lot. Thats why i mean its the simplest explanation.
I will also add that i considder being stuck at child size to be a detrimental effect of the DF.

Multiple Amazons having attacks that we had it made very clear to us could easily have killed him if they had connected.

As described above him only narrowly winning in the ring with Boa's sisters, and even then more by the graces of fate then anything.

Sandibody Archepeligo. The Marine Captain, not the Admiral, The Captain. Again, just has basic Armament Haki use. And no one in the crew working together could hurt him, but he could hit Luffy with attacks that his Devil Fruit normally rendered him outright immune too. Just because he had a bit of Haki behind it. Just a rock bottom minimum use of it.

It would be a fight she could at least participate in. She might not win against those 2 specifically 1 on 1, but let's look over at that Muck guy that she still couldn't even touch previously. Or Crocodile, suddenly, beating him becomes a possible outcome, were as before it was a forgone conclusion she couldn't touch him let alone beat him. Or that Navy whatever his rank is now cause he got promoted during the time skip. (The light fruit Admiral's Nephew, name escapes me.). Or being able to at least inflict injury on Trebolt or what's his face with the folding devil fruit power. Now that would be an actual fight. Which would be nice because now she could at least be involved in fights that matter, rather then just one more of 6 relegated to crowd control, and not even always able to pull that off.

Having someone who could ID people and fruit is good. She was already very, very good at. What she needed, by her own admission prior to the time skip, was to be able to fight better. And think of how much better that leg of the operation would have gone if she and Usopp could have dealt with Trebolt and made sure Sugar would stay down?

The first bit dont mean to much. Luffy dont have much defence against sharp weapons. You dont need Haki to kill him if you got a sword or a spear.

And i disagree about the fight against Boa's sisters. It was a fight against 2 opponents who both had a DF fruit, and who where skilled fighters and veterans in their own right. But Luffy only needed to enter Gear 2 to start toying around with them. He freakingly won that fight by tying their tails up.Look at chapter 520, page 14. He got time for a victory pose of all things.

Regarding the Sentoumaru fight, in chapter 511, then Sanji straight up states that someone could take down the entire crew if they found them, because everyone was worn down from fighting a Pacifista. And the important thing regarding Sentoumaru is that he is not a marine Captain, but Captain of the science unit. And Dr Vegapunks bodyguard.

As i also mentioned before, then i really cant see that Haki would help Robin make a difference against most of those DF users who matters. Trebolt is not a Logia. Crocodille is most likely to strong, even with haki. Smoker as well. The Mud guy she could have fough, but he mainly seems like comedy relief. Frankie took him out without Haki.

Because honestly, there has been a lot of story end fights where Haki was not a requirement to Win. Of the 3 story arc bosses so far, Hody, Ceasar and Flamingo, then its only Ceasar who were a Logia.

So if Robin had spend those 2 years only training to use Haki, then she would not have improved her DF control. And most likely not gotten as strong against the majority of people who dont have a logia fruit.

[Braininthejar2]

Well, I guess that's also a way to do this... Good thing buildings in OP have fewer HP than people.. I don't think it would have worked on anyone else there.

It's the same in D&D, isn't it?

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler: Length. Ongoing back and forth.

Show

He did show repeatedly that the amazons were no real threat to him. And i dont know what you mean by one Elderly woman. It was Boa Hancock that caught him.

As for the arena fight. Then it was only the need to safe a defenceless friend that forced him to resort to conquers Haki there. His own life were not in any danger.
Because the same thing about playing with the opponent could be said about Luffy. It was a 2 vs 1 fight so already from the start he was at a disadvantage.
And its already back at the previous arc where he ran into opponents that was so strong he was forced to resort to gear 2 and 3. opponents who did not use Haki either.

The crowd bit meanwhile is not relevant because that was 2 different Haki blasts. One from untrained Luffy. And the other from a Luffy who had progressed to the point where he could use that trick at will.

no, no she didn't. She tried to use her devil fruit on him after they first met because she assumed he would go goo goo eyed over her like evidently literally every male and most women she'd ever met in her life had, and it didn't work. Which weirded her out something fierce and also pissed her off initially. The fact that it didn't work and that he was later able to over power her sisters AND that he very clearly did not have the hots for her was why she fell for him in the first place! It's even a major feature of the running joke of her having fallen for him during Impel Down AND Marineford!

She didn't catch him. There was the little old lady who was some kind of councilor for Boa who had been pushing Boa to go to Marineford just before Luffy came to her attention. That same little old lady is the one who get's the news to Luffy that Ace was captured and sentenced to execution, setting off the next 2 story arcs. That little old lady whacked Luffy once with what we later found out was Haki and her walking stick and cold cocked him with no visible effort.

As for the Arena, it wasn't that he wasn't in danger. It was that he was prioritizing them at the time. He was still in danger because he was getting his butt soundly trounced, and he had tried everything in his arsenal on those 2 and not so much as been able to touch them with it, or mount a single meaningfully successful defense against anything they were throwing at him up to that point. Nothing worked until Conqueror's Haki caught them off guard and rattled them enough to get his friends out of danger, and then second gear, which, again, at the time at least was shortening his life span to use, was turned on. THEN he had enough raw power between the two to win that fight. That's not never being in danger or being way stronger, that's finding out you forgot you accidentally brought your gun to the fist fight, and then remembering it when they go to leave you broken for a few minutes and kill your buddies with there bare hands in front of you before they get around to finishing you off. Big difference.

The crowd bit is relevant because the strength of the crow members in the former, because of there Haki, is considerably higher for most of them then it was in the latter example.

Hmm.. i really cant find that quote myself. But wont put to much stock in a single comment or the specific definition of what a master is. Luffy dont have to much room for comparison, and its something thats translated from japanese. But i will concede she is a skilled user of observation haki.

Nope, newer did. Your welcome to go back and check my previous posts. What i said was that its highly likely that being an insane top tier fighter aids in learning to use Haki faster. From the fact that the monster trio had all instinctively used a sort of Haki before being trained.
And i would like to state again, that it would still have been a problem for Robin. Even with Haki she would not be a fight for the majority of the Logia users we have seen.
Besides that its really stretching the edge of whats belieable to think that Robin could lean both the CP nine fighting style whose name escapes me. A fighting style that it can take a lifetime to master. And Haki at the same time, in just 2 years. Especially when she is starting from scratch.

When she goes out there and there explaining her fighting style is to force people to ring out and never to properly attack them. He mentions when they cut back to him with the Inmates that are friends with her and Luffy fighting that she's an Observation Haki master as he's watching her fight. Confusing everyone cause none of them have ever heard of Haki.

This is building on the assumpion that armament Haki is something everyone can easily learn though. But clearly its not, since its a skill only possesed by the absolutely elite fighters. We dont even have any evidence that it is something everyone can learn to a degree where its useful.

It might be a theoretical everyone, in the same way that theoretically any ablebodied person can climb mount everest. Does not mean its practically doable for them though. And the large amount of people without Haki in organisation with access to it means it is not just something anyone can learn with a bit of tutoring.

There. I Checked. You have made this claim. More then once. And all arguments after that are framed with this firmly in mind.

And yes, she could fight them. Maybe not win, but she could fight them. Crocodile is somewhat strong but once Luffy figured out a way to bypass his Logia defense he was able to overtake him. That was literally all it took to beat him, figure out how to get past that 1 defense. Both Ceaser Clown and Monet were in the same boat. They fought, and eventually lost, hard, because they needed that special logia defense in there fighting styles to come out on top. And the muck guy was presented as a serious threat. And no, Franky put restraints on him. After Luffy, Sanji and Zorro dealt with KOing him. And he got out of those, and then eventually got murdered by a pair of Big Mom's enforcer's whom just backed there attacks with some Armament Haki and mentioned that Armament Haki was a common ability in The New World. Were Dragon knew Robin and crew were going to be going.

But she could fight them. Maybe the admirals would be able to beat her still, but at least she might be able to actually make them take more then 1 attack out on her to beat her, and make it so they couldn't just stand there and let her hit them as much as she pleased because it couldn't possibly injure them. She could make them actually fight her. Meaning she doesn't need to be willfully shielded by the others, letting them, in turn, focus on other things in combat.

As for the CP 9 fighting style, Coby got the hang of the basics of it at least and was using moves from it in less time then that in universe. Before he awakened Armament Haki. All he needed was a bit of tutoring from Garp, who wasn't even making that an exclusive focus of his time or training at the time. And Robin starting out I'd wager is loads stronger then Coby was when she started training with Dragon at the beginning of the time skip, so learning 1-4 moves and armament Haki isn't unreasonable here for someone whom were told is something of a prodigy at learning new things.

Well fair enough, said DF is a walking contrivance of all the weird limitations and clauses it has. It clearly is designed to set up the rather silly resolution that frees all the captured toys. Thats clearly because Oda needed some sort of release trigger that did not involve killing her.

And the only thing i have been arguing is her own, is the speed/reflexes bit. We have seen that sort of thing a lot of time from training. She is old enough to have trained a lot. Thats why i mean its the simplest explanation.
I will also add that i considder being stuck at child size to be a detrimental effect of the DF.

And all that Sugars fruit does is turn people she touch into toys. Thats all anyone has ever said about it.

Except it's not what you said. As shown above. Now, as for sugar being a master. Here's what I want you to take into account. She has been shown touching peoples weapons and by connection turning them into toys. Even when it was an attack hitting her hand when she was ready for it (and with out injury, that's important to note.) She's been shown bypassing the kind of Haki strength limitation's by virtue of her Devil Fruit just working that way that would, say, keep Law form putting someone he likes mind into oh, say, The Fleet Admiral's body to get access to an Ally with the Fleet Admirals body and Devil Fruit powers if not there Haki strength or authority. (We saw with the Franky/Chopper Swap that devil fruit powers stay with the body and the Nami/Sanji part of the swapping that Haki stays with the mind.)

And as shown she's impossibly fast on the touch. For whatever reason.

As shown, She could solo all 3 admirals and the fleet admiral. 4 on 1. She can connect cause she has the speed, and she can shut down all there attack and defense options except MAYBE run away with your tail between your legs, and she's so fast that's not assured.

Sugar. Is. Hacks. And a HUGH part of that is how OP her devil Fruit is.

And to top it off, we are never told the Fruit explicitly changes your body to a child. That is left open. It might work that way, or it might just be that once you eat the fruit you stop aging and she stopped aging as a child cause she was a little girl when she ate it. If it's the latter, that's just another crazy strong power the fruit has.

The first bit dont mean to much. Luffy dont have much defence against sharp weapons. You dont need Haki to kill him if you got a sword or a spear.

And i disagree about the fight against Boa's sisters. It was a fight against 2 opponents who both had a DF fruit, and who where skilled fighters and veterans in their own right. But Luffy only needed to enter Gear 2 to start toying around with them. He freakingly won that fight by tying their tails up.Look at chapter 520, page 14. He got time for a victory pose of all things.

Regarding the Sentoumaru fight, in chapter 511, then Sanji straight up states that someone could take down the entire crew if they found them, because everyone was worn down from fighting a Pacifista. And the important thing regarding Sentoumaru is that he is not a marine Captain, but Captain of the science unit. And Dr Vegapunks bodyguard.

As i also mentioned before, then i really cant see that Haki would help Robin make a difference against most of those DF users who matters. Trebolt is not a Logia. Crocodille is most likely to strong, even with haki. Smoker as well. The Mud guy she could have fough, but he mainly seems like comedy relief. Frankie took him out without Haki.

Because honestly, there has been a lot of story end fights where Haki was not a requirement to Win. Of the 3 story arc bosses so far, Hody, Ceasar and Flamingo, then its only Ceasar who were a Logia.

So if Robin had spend those 2 years only training to use Haki, then she would not have improved her DF control. And most likely not gotten as strong against the majority of people who dont have a logia fruit.

That's not what's shown in the anime. Luffy blows through there defenses quickly and that's that once he hits Gear 2. Which is actively shortening his life span to use by this stage because he hasn't trained with Rayleigh yet and we don't even know if that was covered in the Reyleigh training. And again, this is AFTER he blasted them with Conqueror's Haki.

As for Sentoumaru, he's just called a captain that I recall, same as T-bone or Smoker at this stage. The only things special about him are that he's got Haki and an Admiral for his uncle. If he got that promotion afterword's during the time skip and that's the promotion I'm remembering, ok, but we also saw that just being able to use Haki was all it took for Luffy to be light years above him were as it was reversed previously on screen.

Trebolt might as well be a logia given that he keeps getting cut to bits and laughting it off. And there are a number of Paramecia fruit were it offers some odd special defense that Armament Haki would help against, or a special attack that Armament Haki can help fend off. Luffy himself for example. Baby 5 and Diamantine in just this arc, and yes, Trebolt. I think trading blows with him that actually hurt him, and him trading blows that hurt in return, unless active defenses were used, would have been a lot more interesting.

There have been a lot of story end fights were it wasn't, but it sure as all hell would have helped or did help immensely. Ceaser Clown. Magellan. Crocodile. And it's not just arc ending fights. Monette. Half of Doffy's executive's. Arc Ending fights aren't always the only one's that matter. Take right now (I.E., were I'm at.). She could, if she had Armament Haki, have shielded herself with her fruit form Gladius and then just have kept going, and left Bartholomew to finish him up and come after them. And then, even if Cavendish was done for now, the two of them could have simply taken Rebecca onwards, and taken turns baby sitting her, away form Diamantine (Letting Kyro's cut loose on him safely.) and focused on either helping get the princess, or taking Trebolt out of the fight. That little bit of Armament Haki might not have worked against Doffy but it could still have made a difference. Or by keeping him from getting so badly hurt, she could have let him go help with Executive mop up and jus covered Rebecca as depicted. Less of a game change, but still impactful.

So that all aside, I'm a bit further in now. And, I'm torn. On the one hand I like that it looks like Baby 5 is going to get away from the bad guys, on the other hand that felt kind of sexist, but on the other hand given her history it makes a certain kind of sense that she might be traumatized in this manner, on the other hand they just freaking used this kind of logic over at the factory fight with the factory manager and Franky and it's kind of getting a bit cringy, on the other hand it's being played for comedy so I shouldn't take it seriously.

Can we just get along with Punching Doffy to death already? Yeah I'll go with that.

Also, Flashback. Senor Pink. What the hell happened to your fashion sense and sense of conditioning? Like, really?

[Gray Mage]

Also, Flashback. Senor Pink. What the hell happened to your fashion sense and sense of conditioning? Like, really?

I know. He's so hard-boiled right now, right? *Swoons*