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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    ... ... ... no. No. He looked WAY more hard boiled in the decently high end business suit. He looked like a 20's gangster who had some meaningful rank and for a reason with his organization. It really worked!

    Dude. Really. What in all the hells happened too you that got you into baby attire?!
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    The answer should be in the flashback.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    ... ... ... no. No. He looked WAY more hard boiled in the decently high end business suit. He looked like a 20's gangster who had some meaningful rank and for a reason with his organization. It really worked!

    Dude. Really. What in all the hells happened too you that got you into baby attire?!
    Senior Pink is what happens when Oda decides to make evil James Bond. You'll see.


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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Here is Traab with yet another randomish question! Ok, so I was watching random video clips and I got to watch garp laughing his butt off about how luffy was doing to sengoku in his office while snacking on biscutts or crackers or something. They were talking about impel down, enis lobby as well as the celestial dragons and sengoku is raging out over the trouble luffy is causing while garp acts like he is so proud he could burst something. However, after that, after marineford, the only time I have really seen garp is him getting punched by a very very upset dadan, and some clips of him training coby and the other guy. Has he popped up in any significant way since then? Like, did we ever get to see him react to events in dressrosa? Fishman island? His whole deal with big mom? Is there any explanation beyond his massive guilt over ace and luffy that he hasnt been seen? I mean geez, sengoku has taken his place as fleet troll just wandering around laughing at everything that happens and not taking anything seriously.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Raz: It wasn't. He's just there and there all telling Baby 5 about the history of Laws home town so that that can be a Segway into explaining his history and showing his flashbacks and backstory, and then going along with the rest of Doffy's Core Crew as they do things during this point in the timeline.

    Zodi: ... ... ... ... ... ok. This, could prove interesting then. Will see how it pans out.

    Traab: I recall right after Marineford that Garp made some comment about how he was going to retiring soon and basically restricting himself to just teaching. It might be that Akine is respecting that wish because getting himself into a fist fight with someone who hates him personally, wants to outright murder him, and is perfectly capable of doing so, is, in Akine's book, not productive.
    "I Burn!"

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Raz: It wasn't. He's just there and there all telling Baby 5 about the history of Laws home town so that that can be a Segway into explaining his history and showing his flashbacks and backstory, and then going along with the rest of Doffy's Core Crew as they do things during this point in the timeline.

    Zodi: ... ... ... ... ... ok. This, could prove interesting then. Will see how it pans out.

    Traab: I recall right after Marineford that Garp made some comment about how he was going to retiring soon and basically restricting himself to just teaching. It might be that Akine is respecting that wish because getting himself into a fist fight with someone who hates him personally, wants to outright murder him, and is perfectly capable of doing so, is, in Akine's book, not productive.
    Yeah that makes sense, somehow I doubt his heart is in being an active marine anymore. I was just wondering if there had been any good scenes I missed post marineford dealing with garp and how he is doing, as I said, aside from training coby and such. I imagine any such scenes would be complicated beyond belief to handle in a manga format considering the confusing mess of emotions that must be involved though. I mean, is he still proud of luffy? Does he feel he has the RIGHT to feel proud after what his actions and inactions put luffy through? Is he burying himself in his teaching in order to hide from all of this terrible stuff? Is he even AWARE of what luffy has been up to since popping back onto the world stage after his 2 year absence? I mean, if he was proud of luffy before marineford, how must he feel now that luffy has come back, showed he is on par with the strongest of the pirate warlords, and is waging a small scale war against one of the pirate emperors? Lets face it, luffy leveled up in a big way since marineford. And has continued with basically, as fujirita or whatever the blind admirals name is said, "Fixing the problems the navy should have handled" or something like that.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    The other thing to consider is that he might well be looking at how Akine has operated for the last 2 years and decided he can't in good frame of mind actively back the navy any more. The man pulled a Coo and took the Fleet Admiral position because he's a sociopath bent on enforcing his word as law by force of arms up to and including genocide just to make a point. The man Murdered his grandson and pursued his other grandson, and ignored a Yonko on the battle field to do it, and not even because of there actual crimes, just who there parents were.

    Worse, he then, when Whitebeard Fell and Blackbeard revealed to the Navy just how badly he had been playing them from the start of the matter, and claimed Whitebeard's fruit with a crew full of the worse people to ever be held in Impel Down, ignored the fact that the sitting fleet admiral was dueling that guy to keep chasing Luffy.

    (and all of this assumes that Akine legitimately won the duel with Aokiji and I find that Questionable. I think it would be perfectly in character and narratively fitting of the massive corruption in the government, particularly among the Absolute Justice types like Akine, if he cheated reasoning it was ok if HE cheats because HE is doing it for the Greater Good (which is of course him being in control of the Navy so that context and circumstance's be damned, anything that even has a conceivable potential to not be under the governments thumb at all times will be hunted down and eradicated.)

    It would make perfect sense to me for Garp to have told Akine "I will take and train students because this organization needs them. I have been chasing pirates since you were in diapers. I'm done with it for now at least. Push this issue and I will remember that I have every reason in the world to murder you were you stand, and we both know in a fair fight you don't' have a chance against me. Just go with it and I will continue to have forgotten that detail in my old age. Because frankly, as far as I'm concerned, your as bad if not worse then the people you want my help to hunt, and I will only give you as much support as respect for your office mandates, and not a bit more because you do not deserve it."



    Particularly since we know Sangoku and Aokiji have both also effectively told Akine to go find himself a straw and use it to wet his own behind with. And he took it, likely for a similar reason. (And if my cheating theory is right the fact that Aokiji was allowed to resign with the Navy as badly short handed as it was after Marineford would further fit. Akine let him cause he knows he should have lost by rights, had to cheat to win, and just cause he pulled it off once doesn't mean he can do it again, and he can't beat him with out it. Better to just let him leave and draft a replacement. )





    I wonder if there's not going to be a schism at some point were there's some form of Navy Civil War. The Moral Justice Types having it out with the Absolute Justice Types, the former looking at groups like The Straw Hats, The White Beards, The Red Hairs, The Hearts, cleaning up messes like Dressrosa and Doffy that the Navy Created and making sure others like Big Mom can't work it out to really come in and ruin people more then they already have, look at the revolutionary army doing much the same, and look at the fact that the Celestial Dragons and the Navy and Akine have done no end of stupid things that have lead to someone like Blackbeard being able to rise to being a Yonko, or to someone like Doffy having impunity and power over people for over a decade after his stunt, and look at the ones they are pursuing instead are groups like The Straw Hats, whom are only dangerous if your someone like Doffy or The Celestial Dragons.

    And the Absolute Justice types who will kill for even daring to notice this trend and thing maybe you might be on the wrong side of history give this trend.

    And as a result, the Navy has a Civil War.
    "I Burn!"

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    I know. He's so hard-boiled right now, right? *Swoons*
    Senor Pink might be the best thing Oda has ever created, and that's saying a lot. Bon Clay comes kind of close...
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post





    I wonder if there's not going to be a schism at some point were there's some form of Navy Civil War. The Moral Justice Types having it out with the Absolute Justice Types, the former looking at groups like The Straw Hats, The White Beards, The Red Hairs, The Hearts, cleaning up messes like Dressrosa and Doffy that the Navy Created and making sure others like Big Mom can't work it out to really come in and ruin people more then they already have, look at the revolutionary army doing much the same, and look at the fact that the Celestial Dragons and the Navy and Akine have done no end of stupid things that have lead to someone like Blackbeard being able to rise to being a Yonko, or to someone like Doffy having impunity and power over people for over a decade after his stunt, and look at the ones they are pursuing instead are groups like The Straw Hats, whom are only dangerous if your someone like Doffy or The Celestial Dragons.

    And the Absolute Justice types who will kill for even daring to notice this trend and thing maybe you might be on the wrong side of history give this trend.

    And as a result, the Navy has a Civil War.
    I think thats pretty much a given. We have at least one admiral who has already committed multiple acts of civil disobedience openly when it comes to blindy mc noblinks and how he handled the entire dressrosa arc. Most notably, because it took place in front of other higher ups, his refusal to chase down luffy for a few days after he defeated don flamingo. Also as notably, his open and highly public acknowledgment of the navy's failure in both putting flamingo in charge in the first place, then doing nothing of use in stopping him when he went full genocidal lunatic. All to intentionally torpedo the chance of the navy putting ANOTHER coverup in place to claim credit for the work luffy did like against crocodile. And he openly defied hot pants mcjustice over it when he called up to yell at him for daring to admit the navy isnt perfect. That kind of thing doesnt even take into account the luffy effect. Significant portions of the navy respect and like luffy, and the sort of thing that might drag him into another marineford style confrontation with them is also likely to be the sort of thing the garps, cobys, smokers, and fujitoras wont put up with.

    Honestly, the very least thats likely to happen is the absolute justice crew gets wiped out in a confrontation with the straw hats, leaving the moral justice types to take over and effectively call a truce. Not a warlords style of truce as that failed miserably, but a "So long as you arent raping pillaging and plundering, we will look the other way." Helped by the fact that by then they will have little choice in the matter, as its not like they would be capable of stopping luffy without a massively destructive war at that stage. Looking at things honestly, marineford was really their last chance to stop luffy before he became a threat that would require more resources to defeat than its worth. He is basically turning into whitebeard/gol roger power wise at a rapid pace.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    no, no she didn't. She tried to use her devil fruit on him after they first met because she assumed he would go goo goo eyed over her like evidently literally every male and most women she'd ever met in her life had, and it didn't work. Which weirded her out something fierce and also pissed her off initially. The fact that it didn't work and that he was later able to over power her sisters AND that he very clearly did not have the hots for her was why she fell for him in the first place! It's even a major feature of the running joke of her having fallen for him during Impel Down AND Marineford!

    She didn't catch him. There was the little old lady who was some kind of councilor for Boa who had been pushing Boa to go to Marineford just before Luffy came to her attention. That same little old lady is the one who get's the news to Luffy that Ace was captured and sentenced to execution, setting off the next 2 story arcs. That little old lady whacked Luffy once with what we later found out was Haki and her walking stick and cold cocked him with no visible effort.

    As for the Arena, it wasn't that he wasn't in danger. It was that he was prioritizing them at the time. He was still in danger because he was getting his butt soundly trounced, and he had tried everything in his arsenal on those 2 and not so much as been able to touch them with it, or mount a single meaningfully successful defense against anything they were throwing at him up to that point. Nothing worked until Conqueror's Haki caught them off guard and rattled them enough to get his friends out of danger, and then second gear, which, again, at the time at least was shortening his life span to use, was turned on. THEN he had enough raw power between the two to win that fight. That's not never being in danger or being way stronger, that's finding out you forgot you accidentally brought your gun to the fist fight, and then remembering it when they go to leave you broken for a few minutes and kill your buddies with there bare hands in front of you before they get around to finishing you off. Big difference.

    The crowd bit is relevant because the strength of the crow members in the former, because of there Haki, is considerably higher for most of them then it was in the latter example.
    Your only watching the anime? I guess then its getting less relevant discussing a lot of things, since i only read the manga. And there it was Boa who took him down by shooting him in the back with a kiss.

    And no, i cant see any difference at all. At the end of the day it is a pistol Luffy has, and can whip out at any time he desides the situation requires it. It was mainly him being cocky that meant he did not use it in the first place. But after he stopped going easy on the gorgon sisters then he did make them look like amateurs.

    But i repeat, the crowd bit is not relevant, because there is 2 variables in this situation. Different crowd. And different strenght Haki blasts. We dont know if Trained Luffy could have done the same or not.
    Anyway this is completely irrelevant. Because it is only when there is an extremely large difference in strenght that you can knock people out with your Haki.

    When she goes out there and there explaining her fighting style is to force people to ring out and never to properly attack them. He mentions when they cut back to him with the Inmates that are friends with her and Luffy fighting that she's an Observation Haki master as he's watching her fight. Confusing everyone cause none of them have ever heard of Haki.
    I guess i cant ask for relevant chapter or page number. But anyway, fair enough, i agree its been said. It might be a bad translation choice though, or just Luffy's oppinion. Because i think she seems rather short of the actual Observation mastery we have seen from the likes of Enel.

    There. I Checked. You have made this claim. More then once. And all arguments after that are framed with this firmly in mind.

    And yes, she could fight them. Maybe not win, but she could fight them. Crocodile is somewhat strong but once Luffy figured out a way to bypass his Logia defense he was able to overtake him. That was literally all it took to beat him, figure out how to get past that 1 defense. Both Ceaser Clown and Monet were in the same boat. They fought, and eventually lost, hard, because they needed that special logia defense in there fighting styles to come out on top. And the muck guy was presented as a serious threat. And no, Franky put restraints on him. After Luffy, Sanji and Zorro dealt with KOing him. And he got out of those, and then eventually got murdered by a pair of Big Mom's enforcer's whom just backed there attacks with some Armament Haki and mentioned that Armament Haki was a common ability in The New World. Were Dragon knew Robin and crew were going to be going.

    But she could fight them. Maybe the admirals would be able to beat her still, but at least she might be able to actually make them take more then 1 attack out on her to beat her, and make it so they couldn't just stand there and let her hit them as much as she pleased because it couldn't possibly injure them. She could make them actually fight her. Meaning she doesn't need to be willfully shielded by the others, letting them, in turn, focus on other things in combat.

    As for the CP 9 fighting style, Coby got the hang of the basics of it at least and was using moves from it in less time then that in universe. Before he awakened Armament Haki. All he needed was a bit of tutoring from Garp, who wasn't even making that an exclusive focus of his time or training at the time. And Robin starting out I'd wager is loads stronger then Coby was when she started training with Dragon at the beginning of the time skip, so learning 1-4 moves and armament Haki isn't unreasonable here for someone whom were told is something of a prodigy at learning new things.
    Alright fair enough. Thats armament haki though. I stand by my comments regarding that. We have only seen that in dedicated fighters with a very high degree of physical training.

    But actually, Crocodille is extremely strong, his title of warlord is very well deserved. The first time Luffy fough him while knowing his weakness he still lost. And he could have been killed if not for pure luck that allowed him to make a recovery. And round 2 was still a brutal struggle that left Luffy dying from poison. If anything Crocodille is proof of how dangerous a logia user can be even after you get past their defence. Even without that they can still be as brutally tough as everyone else.

    I also think your being unfair in your judgment of Ceasar and Monet. Ceasar is not a fighter, he is a scientist. His main strenght lies in trickery and deciet. Something that did prove enough to take down Luffy in the first round.
    Monet meanwhile were just completely outclassed by Zorro. Its not like her defensive technique of vanishing into the snow was not effective against a Haki using Tashi.

    For that matter i will also continue the claim that Mud guy was comedy relief. He was newer presented to a serious treat against the Straw hats in the manga.

    But back to Robin, i still cant see any way that learning a little bit of Haki would in any way make a meaningful difference on her ability to survive the attention of an Admiral level opponent. There i think her increased DF mastery, and among other things flight, would help much more.

    Regarding the CP9 fighting style, then im actually pretty certain he trained hard for at least several years. I dont think we have a relevant time line. But he changed visibly enough that he was no longer recognisable. And he still only had one or two of the CP9 forms (it was btw observation haki he awoke)
    Also, Robin is an academic prodigy. She is a genious when it comes to using the mind. But i think we have plenty of examples that show its not the same as being a fighting prodigy. We have some rather dumb SH's who are still brilliant when it comes to fighting. And some very smart people who suck at fighting. In Robins example she have so far been shown to rely purely on her DF. Without it she is likely close to be as physical weak as a regular person. Or at least close to be that.

    Except it's not what you said. As shown above. Now, as for sugar being a master. Here's what I want you to take into account. She has been shown touching peoples weapons and by connection turning them into toys. Even when it was an attack hitting her hand when she was ready for it (and with out injury, that's important to note.) She's been shown bypassing the kind of Haki strength limitation's by virtue of her Devil Fruit just working that way that would, say, keep Law form putting someone he likes mind into oh, say, The Fleet Admiral's body to get access to an Ally with the Fleet Admirals body and Devil Fruit powers if not there Haki strength or authority. (We saw with the Franky/Chopper Swap that devil fruit powers stay with the body and the Nami/Sanji part of the swapping that Haki stays with the mind.)

    And as shown she's impossibly fast on the touch. For whatever reason.

    As shown, She could solo all 3 admirals and the fleet admiral. 4 on 1. She can connect cause she has the speed, and she can shut down all there attack and defense options except MAYBE run away with your tail between your legs, and she's so fast that's not assured.

    Sugar. Is. Hacks. And a HUGH part of that is how OP her devil Fruit is.

    And to top it off, we are never told the Fruit explicitly changes your body to a child. That is left open. It might work that way, or it might just be that once you eat the fruit you stop aging and she stopped aging as a child cause she was a little girl when she ate it. If it's the latter, that's just another crazy strong power the fruit has.
    Your taking things out of contex there. I stand by the comment that the only bit about Sugars fruit thats relevant for her fighting power is that her touch turns you into a toy. For that discussion thats all that matters. I did agree on that it did a lot of other weird things, that i did not see as important. Because they did not contribute to her fighting power.

    Anyway, i have actually read closely though the relevant chapters of Sugar fighting, and in all of them she actively needs to touch her opponent with her palm to activate her ability. Look at chapter 740 page 20. Robin can grab her safely and are about to make her eat the grape, when she wriggles a hand free and touches Robins arm with her fingers. And in all the cases i have seen of her using her DF, she has needed to touch the person in question, or clothes that was close to the skin. I cant find any examples at all of her doing anything by touching a weapon.

    That means that if your fast enough you can indeed punch her to your hearts content. Or stab her. Or shoot her like every single Admiral are able to do.

    So no, i dont think her fruit is actually much worth in combat. Not compared to the really strong fruits. Its biggest strenght is that it cant be resisted. But in return its range is extremely limiting.

    I also dont see the bit about potentially staying young forever as much of a hax either. I certainly wont call it a crazy strong power.

    That's not what's shown in the anime. Luffy blows through there defenses quickly and that's that once he hits Gear 2. Which is actively shortening his life span to use by this stage because he hasn't trained with Rayleigh yet and we don't even know if that was covered in the Reyleigh training. And again, this is AFTER he blasted them with Conqueror's Haki.

    As for Sentoumaru, he's just called a captain that I recall, same as T-bone or Smoker at this stage. The only things special about him are that he's got Haki and an Admiral for his uncle. If he got that promotion afterword's during the time skip and that's the promotion I'm remembering, ok, but we also saw that just being able to use Haki was all it took for Luffy to be light years above him were as it was reversed previously on screen.

    Trebolt might as well be a logia given that he keeps getting cut to bits and laughting it off. And there are a number of Paramecia fruit were it offers some odd special defense that Armament Haki would help against, or a special attack that Armament Haki can help fend off. Luffy himself for example. Baby 5 and Diamantine in just this arc, and yes, Trebolt. I think trading blows with him that actually hurt him, and him trading blows that hurt in return, unless active defenses were used, would have been a lot more interesting.

    There have been a lot of story end fights were it wasn't, but it sure as all hell would have helped or did help immensely. Ceaser Clown. Magellan. Crocodile. And it's not just arc ending fights. Monette. Half of Doffy's executive's. Arc Ending fights aren't always the only one's that matter. Take right now (I.E., were I'm at.). She could, if she had Armament Haki, have shielded herself with her fruit form Gladius and then just have kept going, and left Bartholomew to finish him up and come after them. And then, even if Cavendish was done for now, the two of them could have simply taken Rebecca onwards, and taken turns baby sitting her, away form Diamantine (Letting Kyro's cut loose on him safely.) and focused on either helping get the princess, or taking Trebolt out of the fight. That little bit of Armament Haki might not have worked against Doffy but it could still have made a difference. Or by keeping him from getting so badly hurt, she could have let him go help with Executive mop up and jus covered Rebecca as depicted. Less of a game change, but still impactful.
    I only puts limited stock in the shortening lifespan bit. We have not been shown any actual decline in physical ability despite how much he abused gear 2nd. Also, why do you put so much stock in that they got a wave of conquers haki? The Gorgon sisters were clearly so strong that it only staggered them briefly. And luffy gave them plenty of time to recover while stashing the statues away.

    Sentoumaru meanwhile might not have been introduced proberly in the anime, but he clearly got a more telling introduction in the manga. And the important bits were both that he was not a Marine Captain, Bodyguard to the most important scientist in the WG, and fighting a Luffy who were worn down after some prolonged fighting.
    And i would not say that using Haki is all it took. The Luffy who defeated Sentoumary were both well rested, and back from 2 years of non-stop hardcore combat training.

    Again, its hard to avoid giving away spoilers at time, or remember your not up do date with the manga. But Armament Haki would not do anything against Trebol, because he his secret trick. And its not all Paramecia defences that are automatically defeated by Armament Haki. best example is Buggy, who ignored being sliced up by Mihawk.

    And yes, im not saying that being an armament haki master would not help anyone a lot. But learning it and being good at is is clearly a large investment of time. And that would be less time spend gathering information or training in using her DF. And you cant know that taking time away from DF training would have left her stronger against non-logia opponents.




    he other thing to consider is that he might well be looking at how Akine has operated for the last 2 years and decided he can't in good frame of mind actively back the navy any more. The man pulled a Coo and took the Fleet Admiral position because he's a sociopath bent on enforcing his word as law by force of arms up to and including genocide just to make a point. The man Murdered his grandson and pursued his other grandson, and ignored a Yonko on the battle field to do it, and not even because of there actual crimes, just who there parents were.
    To be fair for Akainu, then its because he rightly spotted just how much trouble Luffy would grow into if left unchecked.

    Worse, he then, when Whitebeard Fell and Blackbeard revealed to the Navy just how badly he had been playing them from the start of the matter, and claimed Whitebeard's fruit with a crew full of the worse people to ever be held in Impel Down, ignored the fact that the sitting fleet admiral was dueling that guy to keep chasing Luffy.
    He was confident in his fleet admiral to handle things for the short while it should take him to down Luffy. Thats taking the long view.

    (and all of this assumes that Akine legitimately won the duel with Aokiji and I find that Questionable. I think it would be perfectly in character and narratively fitting of the massive corruption in the government, particularly among the Absolute Justice types like Akine, if he cheated reasoning it was ok if HE cheats because HE is doing it for the Greater Good (which is of course him being in control of the Navy so that context and circumstance's be damned, anything that even has a conceivable potential to not be under the governments thumb at all times will be hunted down and eradicated.)
    And that does honestly seems like a rather biased view. Yes he is a complete monster. But the idea that he might cheat in a fight with a fellow Admiral is really stretching it. I cant see anyone standing for absolute justice trying to cheat a fellow Admiral. And it is believeable that he won in a fair fight. He did extremely well against Whitebeard, dealing out brutal damage and not seeming worse for wear at the end of the fight. And he straight up crushed Ace.

    Senor Pink might be the best thing Oda has ever created, and that's saying a lot. Bon Clay comes kind of close...
    Senor Pink is likely the point where i disagree most with the rest of the regulars in this thread. I really dont get his fans.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    [QUOTE=lord_khaine;22177574]
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Your only watching the anime? I guess then its getting less relevant discussing a lot of things, since i only read the manga. And there it was Boa who took him down by shooting him in the back with a kiss.

    And no, i cant see any difference at all. At the end of the day it is a pistol Luffy has, and can whip out at any time he desides the situation requires it. It was mainly him being cocky that meant he did not use it in the first place. But after he stopped going easy on the gorgon sisters then he did make them look like amateurs.

    But i repeat, the crowd bit is not relevant, because there is 2 variables in this situation. Different crowd. And different strenght Haki blasts. We dont know if Trained Luffy could have done the same or not.
    Anyway this is completely irrelevant. Because it is only when there is an extremely large difference in strenght that you can knock people out with your Haki.
    I am only watching the anime. And in the anime, she shoots him in the back and it hits and doesn't even phase him, freaking her out and pissing her off greatly and working into the overall idea of her eventually falling for him cause he's the one guy who DOESN'T want to hook up with her if she'd give him half a chance.

    And it's a gun he can whip out, that's not been properly maintained and any time he does, risks blowing up his hand in such a way as to cause him to bleed to death seconds after it happens. He didn't make them look like amateurs, he made them look like there was just too much of a raw physical speed and muscle gap to overcome. And they even pointed that out in the show at the time and Rayleigh points it out later, that they were technically more skilled, his particular self destructive application of his fruit just had more raw power too it at the cost of harming him and eventually killing him in the long run as the trade off to the short term boost.

    Fine, I'll let the crowd thing go for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I guess i cant ask for relevant chapter or page number. But anyway, fair enough, i agree its been said. It might be a bad translation choice though, or just Luffy's oppinion. Because i think she seems rather short of the actual Observation mastery we have seen from the likes of Enel.
    Nope, sorry. and ok, maybe, but it's still what I'm going off of. And as for not measuring up to Enel, well, there are different levels of mastery I'm sure. Enel's almost certainly less strong the Rayleigh or Mihawk for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Alright fair enough. Thats armament haki though. I stand by my comments regarding that. We have only seen that in dedicated fighters with a very high degree of physical training.

    But actually, Crocodille is extremely strong, his title of warlord is very well deserved. The first time Luffy fough him while knowing his weakness he still lost. And he could have been killed if not for pure luck that allowed him to make a recovery. And round 2 was still a brutal struggle that left Luffy dying from poison. If anything Crocodille is proof of how dangerous a logia user can be even after you get past their defence. Even without that they can still be as brutally tough as everyone else.

    I also think your being unfair in your judgment of Ceasar and Monet. Ceasar is not a fighter, he is a scientist. His main strenght lies in trickery and deciet. Something that did prove enough to take down Luffy in the first round.
    Monet meanwhile were just completely outclassed by Zorro. Its not like her defensive technique of vanishing into the snow was not effective against a Haki using Tashi.

    For that matter i will also continue the claim that Mud guy was comedy relief. He was newer presented to a serious treat against the Straw hats in the manga.

    But back to Robin, i still cant see any way that learning a little bit of Haki would in any way make a meaningful difference on her ability to survive the attention of an Admiral level opponent. There i think her increased DF mastery, and among other things flight, would help much more.

    Regarding the CP9 fighting style, then im actually pretty certain he trained hard for at least several years. I dont think we have a relevant time line. But he changed visibly enough that he was no longer recognisable. And he still only had one or two of the CP9 forms (it was btw observation haki he awoke)
    Also, Robin is an academic prodigy. She is a genious when it comes to using the mind. But i think we have plenty of examples that show its not the same as being a fighting prodigy. We have some rather dumb SH's who are still brilliant when it comes to fighting. And some very smart people who suck at fighting. In Robins example she have so far been shown to rely purely on her DF. Without it she is likely close to be as physical weak as a regular person. Or at least close to be that.

    Yes, a Luffy that hasn't gotten to 2nd gear yet. And he still lost the final round and THAT one really mattered. If he could loose that fight, he could at least have a serious fight on his hands against Robin given her current skill level with her Devil Fruit if she also had Armament Haki use and some, not even all, some, of CP9's fighting moves. It would even have a certain Irony to it given her relation to both if she had those 2 things, including the CP9 moves, and used them to defeat crocodile later down the line in a rematch, since we know he and Mr. 1 are running round The New World now.

    And even though he's not a fighter Luffy was the only one in the crew who could handle him, and Luffy, Zorro and Sanji were the only one's who could actually touch him. Franky and Nami both treid attacking him, and neither one could injure him. (I forget if the same happened with Robin or not.) As for Monet, Zorro could also close the distance between him and her, something the Navy Captain on hand couldn't do. And hasn't there been a lot of complaining in this thread that post Time skip Zorro is just way over powered?

    Will just have to agree to disagree on mud guy then.

    Ok, follow along. Which one is harder to survive encountering.

    An opponent whom, 100% no matter what you do you can never, ever, ever, ever harm even the least little bit even if he just stands there and let's you kill yourself by exhaustion from trying and it always, always failing entirely to so much as make him blink?

    Or.

    An opponent whom can fight you, and is probably a better combatant then you, but who, when you do attack him, has to stop and actively either avoid the attack or mount an active defense with active effort?

    Some Armament Haki proficiency is the difference between it being the former or the latter. (for none devil fruit users some seaprism stone gear could do the same job.) but it's the difference between fighting superman with a purely conventional hand gun and that's it, and fighting superman with a small arsenal of 100% mystical martial arts techniques. You might well still loose, but at least with the latter you can make him actually fight you and loose time doing it, or get a sucker punch in and inflict SOME injury as a result. And again, you want this to be only about Admiral level opponents, it's not.

    As for Coby, it was less then 2 years in universe from when he and Luffy parted ways and when they met up at Water 7, and Coby Awoke to Conqueror's Haki at Marineford. Given that, I think Robin could learn 1-2, maybe 3 moves and Armament Haki application in 2 years. Particularly since she'd likely have already read and memories all the basic theory, she just needed a hands on tutor to get her body caught up to were her mind was, and we saw with Nami and Sanji's body swap on Punk Hazard that the body is very, very, very much secondary in these regards anyway, cause Sanji maintained Moonwalk's use, a CP9 technique he learned during the time skip, and he also maintained his Haki mastery.

    So, no, I think in Robins case, your vastly overestimating the time and energy it would have taken for her to learn what I'm proposing form a tutor as accomplished as Dragon and anyone else he could bring in to help that along, and he would have had a vested interest in doing so too.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Your taking things out of contex there. I stand by the comment that the only bit about Sugars fruit thats relevant for her fighting power is that her touch turns you into a toy. For that discussion thats all that matters. I did agree on that it did a lot of other weird things, that i did not see as important. Because they did not contribute to her fighting power.

    Anyway, i have actually read closely though the relevant chapters of Sugar fighting, and in all of them she actively needs to touch her opponent with her palm to activate her ability. Look at chapter 740 page 20. Robin can grab her safely and are about to make her eat the grape, when she wriggles a hand free and touches Robins arm with her fingers. And in all the cases i have seen of her using her DF, she has needed to touch the person in question, or clothes that was close to the skin. I cant find any examples at all of her doing anything by touching a weapon.

    That means that if your fast enough you can indeed punch her to your hearts content. Or stab her. Or shoot her like every single Admiral are able to do.

    So no, i dont think her fruit is actually much worth in combat. Not compared to the really strong fruits. Its biggest strenght is that it cant be resisted. But in return its range is extremely limiting.

    I also dont see the bit about potentially staying young forever as much of a hax either. I certainly wont call it a crazy strong power.
    Yes, you agreed that it does a lot of things. It does so many things in fact that it got to the point that it's not unreasonable to think her ability's don't even stop with what's shown.

    Read further, when the Tontattas attack several of them are leading with her weapons, which she touches and turns them into toys. She does the same thing to Kyros when he looses his leg and lunges at Doffy, she jumps in between them and touches his sword. Both times she comes away unharmed. So no, she has been shown, canonically, to be able to do it to weapons that should injury her with out injury. To attacks that should do that. Any attack. Hell, Usopp won't even take the chance on a normal attack, he goes for a gag attack banking on her being so freaked from the last go around still that just an effigy of him will be enough to make her faint again. And of course that worked not because it makes logical sense but because it's a Loony Toons homage. First she defeats herself and then she goes down to a Bugs Bunny gag.

    If this was run seriously, as mentioned, the Admirals and Fleet Admiral wouldn't be strong enough to take her as depicted. Hacks.



    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I only puts limited stock in the shortening lifespan bit. We have not been shown any actual decline in physical ability despite how much he abused gear 2nd. Also, why do you put so much stock in that they got a wave of conquers haki? The Gorgon sisters were clearly so strong that it only staggered them briefly. And luffy gave them plenty of time to recover while stashing the statues away.

    Sentoumaru meanwhile might not have been introduced proberly in the anime, but he clearly got a more telling introduction in the manga. And the important bits were both that he was not a Marine Captain, Bodyguard to the most important scientist in the WG, and fighting a Luffy who were worn down after some prolonged fighting.
    And i would not say that using Haki is all it took. The Luffy who defeated Sentoumary were both well rested, and back from 2 years of non-stop hardcore combat training.

    Again, its hard to avoid giving away spoilers at time, or remember your not up do date with the manga. But Armament Haki would not do anything against Trebol, because he his secret trick. And its not all Paramecia defences that are automatically defeated by Armament Haki. best example is Buggy, who ignored being sliced up by Mihawk.

    And yes, im not saying that being an armament haki master would not help anyone a lot. But learning it and being good at is is clearly a large investment of time. And that would be less time spend gathering information or training in using her DF. And you cant know that taking time away from DF training would have left her stronger against non-logia opponents.
    It was important enough to call out several times and to be a plot point to help provoke the training time skip. It's important enough to take seriously.

    And your putting way to much stock in him being well rested as opposed to having mastered Haki an removed that as an Advantage for Sentoumaru

    I don't know, I think if you took his entire "body" and had, or say, Robin use the giant hands thing infuse with Armament Haki to grab and crush all of it at the exact same time, with no room for his real body go hide in it, that that would freaking matter to him. Staring to see what I mean yet? Or 100 arms all doing a finger pistol on him with armament Haki for extra penetration so there's 100 wound channels and too little space to dodge all of them inside the body?

    Buggy is explicitly called out as having a hard counter to Mihawks fighting style. The fact that some fruits are hard counters to some others is already established and has been. That by itself is not unreasonable, it's when a Hard Counter hard counters EVERYTHING that you get into problems.

    And again, I think your greatly overestimating how long getting it up to a useful level under competent instruction would have helped. Particularly since, and follow along, she's not been that good in major fights except as crowd control on screen with out it or with the devil fruit upgrades. Which are kinda cool but really do need the rest of the training to really, really make her a force to be reckoned with in her own right.



    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    To be fair for Akainu, then its because he rightly spotted just how much trouble Luffy would grow into if left unchecked.
    No, it was a biased and ill thought out move that was dressed up as playing the long game. How do I know? He lost the long AND the Short game several times over with that move. Stopping Blackbeard, in the short and long term given that Blackbeard was able to become a new Yonko who was far worse for the world government to have to contend with then Whitebeard ever really was and then Luffy has been thus far, would have been far better. Hell, just kneecapping him somewhat by taking away the bulk of his heavy hitter crew would have qualified. But no, no, he let them get away with it and had Blackbeard had one more in one at that time should have seemed an endless list of tricks up his sleeve for Sangoku would also have let him sink Marineford by moving to far away to counter him if it had gone that way to chase Luffy.

    It was, at best, arrogant and stupid and badly thought out because he was letting his personal biases inform his judgments, rather then keeping cool and being logical.

    At best.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    He was confident in his fleet admiral to handle things for the short while it should take him to down Luffy. Thats taking the long view.
    He was confident 1 man was going to defeat not only the only known person to ever eat 2 devil fruits and gain there powers but also all of the very worst criminals to ever be sealed away in Impel Down, all at the same time, while trying to shield the whole Island? Really? Then he's either a moron, or Sangoku was just so much more powerful then he could ever hope to be that he was a moron for trying to overrule his call that Aokiji should be the new fleet admiral.



    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And that does honestly seems like a rather biased view. Yes he is a complete monster. But the idea that he might cheat in a fight with a fellow Admiral is really stretching it. I cant see anyone standing for absolute justice trying to cheat a fellow Admiral. And it is believeable that he won in a fair fight. He did extremely well against Whitebeard, dealing out brutal damage and not seeming worse for wear at the end of the fight. And he straight up crushed Ace.
    So being in full support of Slavery, Racism and Rape and actively not only committing genocide but deliberately upping the body count of already cleared civilian's just cause is worse then cheating someone who would oppose those things? No. No. Sorry, Akine and the world government have already been shown in a light buy the time of the duel that cheating a fellow admiral whom we already know he held in utter contempt anyway would be something they wouldn't even begin to think about blinking at if they stood to gain something from the win cheating would land them.


    Also consider that we've already seen him try to outright lie to the world about what happened with Dressrosa and to cover up the Navy and WG's complete and total @*$(ing up of the situation form start to finish and steal credit form the real hero's. We've seen him back this sort of play before at Ohara and Alabaster as well. We know this sort of thing is fully in keeping with how he does business given half a chance.

    As for doing well in the fight with Whitebeard, the instant Whitebeard bothered to give him his attention he almost died and only survived cause Blackbeard distracted him again. Had Whitebeard succeeded in Killing black beard, I'd actually wager there's a chance he might well have turned right back around and murdered Akine before it was over.

    And with Ace, he used Armament Haki and a Hard Counter Logia to Ace's Logia defenses that no one on the battlefield except Akine himself knew existed to bypass Aces logia defense and his lak of Armament Haki. That sounds a lot like cheating to me if were to equate it to a duel, and even if we allow for "Well it was a battlefield environment not a real duel duel and Aokiji has his own Haki and there each others hard counters so it's balanced.", it certainly does nothing to rule out the cheating later.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Senor Pink is likely the point where i disagree most with the rest of the regulars in this thread. I really dont get his fans.
    I dunno. Get him out of that costume and back into the suit and I could see an argument for getting him over to the good guys. It's that damn costume that makes me want to go "what is this I don't even?" at him.

    I'm more concerned about the factory manager + the way it panned out with Baby 5 and the fact that there is something of a possibly unintended squicky message there.




    Traab:


    And that would make sense, and hell, I could see Luffy honoring such an agreement and bringing other priates in line with it. And hell, I'd LIKE to see it.

    Course, what I think would be a big deciding factor in how well that would work will be what happens with the other replacement Admiral. We know someone was drafted for the job. I have not seen whom yet. If Akine had to just suck up 2 Moral Justice types, then yeah, I could see that, 1 to deal with Kizenru and let Fujitora or Garp or Sangoku square up the account with Akine and the rest to square away the lower level personnel who fall in line with Akine.






    General question: Barrier Barrrier Fruit: Do we know if it hard counters logia types? Can you just put a Barrier around your body, hit a Logia type and hurt them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post

    General question: Barrier Barrrier Fruit: Do we know if it hard counters logia types? Can you just put a Barrier around your body, hit a Logia type and hurt them?
    The logistics of Logia says no.


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    Darn. That would have been a really cool application for that fruit. Ah well, it's still an awesome fruit and an awesome character.
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    Interesting factoid about the barriers he makes. I always saw them as basically immovable objects, or at least, i cant recall a youtube clip where someone broke through, but in dressrosa, he was trying to use his barrier to stop the birdcage and while it couldnt cut through, it was able to keep pushing him back just like everyone else. Seriously, wtf was up with that cage? Zoro is literally obliterating mountain ranges with his sword, and yet his best efforts are worthless against this city wide barrier that mingo cant even concentrate on because he is fighting for his life against an ever improving luffy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Raz: It wasn't. He's just there and there all telling Baby 5 about the history of Laws home town so that that can be a Segway into explaining his history and showing his flashbacks and backstory, and then going along with the rest of Doffy's Core Crew as they do things during this point in the timeline.
    Is in the manga. Should read it over watching it. The anime is utter crap.

    Dude's kid died. Wife went insane and left him after she found out he was a Pirate so he dressed up like a baby to make her smile.

    Seriously. F the anime for not showing this. Like, 100% drop it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Is in the manga. Should read it over watching it. The anime is utter crap.

    Dude's kid died. Wife went insane and left him after she found out he was a Pirate so he dressed up like a baby to make her smile.

    Seriously. F the anime for not showing this. Like, 100% drop it.
    Anime actually shows this in more detail. I guess meta hasn't reached the point in the Franky fight that shows it. The flashback he mentions is Law's and Baby 5's, where he appears pre wife.


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    Looks like we have a chapter early.

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    Our hearts go to all the random NPCs buried under a 100 tons of whipped cream.

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    20th Anniversary for the series. Pretty huge milestone. Hard to think 20 years ago One Piece started. Oda's said we're about 70% of the way through, been a wild ride. Not much to say this chapter. More set up. Looking forward to a food fight tbh.

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    Even though our heroes didn't FIGHT Big Mom, and were forced to retreat...they have struck a far larger blow than they realized. with Mom beginning her berserking, a lot of people are gonna get hurt, and it's gonna delay their ability to hunt after our heroes. So we're making a clean getaway, too!


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    I only just noticed. Did the chef wall-ran around the tower six times to transform it before it fell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    I only just noticed. Did the chef wall-ran around the tower six times to transform it before it fell?
    Streusen is KIND OF A BIG DEAL, yeah.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    20th Anniversary for the series. Pretty huge milestone. Hard to think 20 years ago One Piece started. Oda's said we're about 70% of the way through, been a wild ride. Not much to say this chapter. More set up. Looking forward to a food fight tbh.
    The thought how many of its fans are younger than this series is amazing... among a lot of other things. I guess that's what reading Dragonball felt like back in the day.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Streusen is KIND OF A BIG DEAL, yeah.
    Yeah... I guess we'll see a lot more of him when Mom comes for revenge. Though, I... I honestly thought the cake castly was already made of cake. Somehow.
    Anyway, nice save. But I hardly expected many of these monsters to die from a crashing castle, to be honest.. I guess I need to reevaluate hit points for these people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    The thought how many of its fans are younger than this series is amazing... among a lot of other things. I guess that's what reading Dragonball felt like back in the day.
    Maybe though readership of One Piece has long since surpassed Dragon Ball. One Piece is the most successful manga from WSJ...and by the numbers ever...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    The thought how many of its fans are younger than this series is amazing... among a lot of other things. I guess that's what reading Dragonball felt like back in the day.
    Man, I know that feeling. This is One Piece's 20th birthday.

    I'm five years older than One Piece.


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    Back into this then.

    And I have to wonder what is stopping Luffy form just giving Bellamy a relatively gentle dose of Conquerer's Haki and subsequently making him stop attacking and risking his life, with out further injury. You've been practicing for 2 years with that power and we've seen you safely use it to incapacitate specific targets in a group with out hurting them for as long as needed before. This makes no sense.





    Also, I'm starting to wonder if Leo isn't going to end up joining the crew after that little display of badassdome. (Actually now that I think on it I think he even has Armament Haki already as well as a devil fruit, and a scout that's that fast, hits that hard, and can be that sneaky with a relatively versatile devil fruit and a good imagination for using it could come in damn handy.


    Thought he Brony in me is also just amused that his finisher is called haute couture.)





    Ok, NOW onto Señor Pink's backstory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Back into this then.

    And I have to wonder what is stopping Luffy form just giving Bellamy a relatively gentle dose of Conquerer's Haki and subsequently making him stop attacking and risking his life, with out further injury. You've been practicing for 2 years with that power and we've seen you safely use it to incapacitate specific targets in a group with out hurting them for as long as needed before. This makes no sense.
    Wasn't there something about the knock out effect of Haki omly working against targets that are so weak that you don't need to fight to beat them?
    Hyena-boy might be above that treshhold, if only slightly.
    That or the Strawhead err hat respects him too much to use it.

    Also, I'm starting to wonder if Leo isn't going to end up joining the crew after that little display of badassdome. (Actually now that I think on it I think he even has Armament Haki already as well as a devil fruit, and a scout that's that fast, hits that hard, and can be that sneaky with a relatively versatile devil fruit and a good imagination for using it could come in damn handy.
    Obligatory River Song quote.

    Ok, NOW onto Señor Pink's backstory.
    Now this should be good.
    A great reminder why One Piece is awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I'm five years older than One Piece.
    Eleven.. I was eleven when OP started. Though I guess I wasn't aware of it until it aired on German TV.
    Though, I share a birth year with many great things so...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Wasn't there something about the knock out effect of Haki omly working against targets that are so weak that you don't need to fight to beat them?
    Hyena-boy might be above that treshhold, if only slightly.
    That or the Strawhead err hat respects him too much to use it.
    Yeah, but if he's in such bad shape Luffy can take him with just one swing then I'd say he qualifies.

    Though that last part might fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Obligatory River Song quote.
    I'm not really a Dr. Who fan, I just found the whole thing to be utterly impenetrable, so, that reference means nothing to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Now this should be good.
    A great reminder why One Piece is awesome.
    Ok, we've got his backstory. I will grudgingly acknowledge that there is a reason that follows a certain logic for the get up. I still don't much care for it thought.

    Also, you know, if he's said "I am a body guard" as far as what his work was, and given her a personal Transpondor Snail to call him on, that would have saved a lot of the freak out at least. Just, pointing that out.



    Ok, Kyros, your kind of a moron. Get healed, have Robin then take her and Rebecca and fall back with them. (Aside, I'm getting REALLY sick of the "Killing these people is BAAAAAAAD!" stuff there hiding behind to justify Rebecca not being allowed by the plot to be effective or have any appreciable agency. No. F that. Logically she should be insanely badass by this time under the circumstances and she should be a forced to be retconned with in her own right. But, whatever.) Now you go help Luffy cause it's down to just him and Law and Doffy and Trebolt. Even if all you do is take Trebolt off the board, that helped a lot and was worth a bit of healing during the battle.

    Similarly, Someone who knows the route, maybe that captain Tank guy, take Zorro and lead him to the Palace, He'll clear the path you just keep him pointed in that direction. That get's another big gun pointed at the bad guys during a now time sensitive fight and has the chance to tip the odds in your favor.




    Though, Law, I will say that was a damn slick pair of stunts.
    "I Burn!"

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    I'm not really a Dr. Who fan, I just found the whole thing to be utterly impenetrable, so, that reference means nothing to me.
    „Spoilers.”

    Ok, we've got his backstory. I will grudgingly acknowledge that there is a reason that follows a certain logic for the get up. I still don't much care for it thought.

    Also, you know, if he's said "I am a body guard" as far as what his work was, and given her a personal Transpondor Snail to call him on, that would have saved a lot of the freak out at least. Just, pointing that out.
    So, typical One Piece character?
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  30. - Top - End - #150
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Metahuman1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    So, we are not going to explain it or anything then. Right.






    Not really, I tend to either firmly like or firmly dislike.
    "I Burn!"

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