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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    So, we are not going to explain it or anything then. Right.
    „Spoilers" was the quote I was referring to.
    And it should cover all possible answers regarding Leo. Without giving them away.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Ok, Kyros, your kind of a moron. Get healed, have Robin then take her and Rebecca and fall back with them. (Aside, I'm getting REALLY sick of the "Killing these people is BAAAAAAAD!" stuff there hiding behind to justify Rebecca not being allowed by the plot to be effective or have any appreciable agency. No. F that. Logically she should be insanely badass by this time under the circumstances and she should be a forced to be retconned with in her own right. But, whatever.) Now you go help Luffy cause it's down to just him and Law and Doffy and Trebolt. Even if all you do is take Trebolt off the board, that helped a lot and was worth a bit of healing during the battle.
    God, the whole Kyros/Rebecca subplot was probably the part of the whole series I disliked the most. Both the "child grows up and helps the father solve the... just kidding, child does nothing and keeps being a liability to the end" angle and the "see, girls really should leave fighting to men" angle were super-annoying.

    Add to that the fact that it was interwoven in an arc that alread had too many side-plots going on at the same time...

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Did the manga ever justify the golden chain mail bikini thing? I just ask because that had to be the most ludicrous outfit I have ever seen someone wear outside of a videogame to fight in. So unless she was being setup to die/be humiliated, I just cant figure out what the deal was with that. Also this scene made me more than a little uncomfortable.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Did the manga ever justify the golden chain mail bikini thing? I just ask because that had to be the most ludicrous outfit I have ever seen someone wear outside of a videogame to fight in. So unless she was being setup to die/be humiliated, I just cant figure out what the deal was with that. Also this scene made me more than a little uncomfortable.
    The justification was that she was a slave gladiator in a country that used gladiator fights to execute criminals for fun and profit. As I said back then, while I don't like her armour design and feel like her entire arc could of been handled a lot better (though her dad's scenes where really good) the idea that she CHOSE to wear this armour is ridiculous. The other gladiators, male or female, wore about as much armour. It's all part of the blood sport.


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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The justification was that she was a slave gladiator in a country that used gladiator fights to execute criminals for fun and profit. As I said back then, while I don't like her armour design and feel like her entire arc could of been handled a lot better (though her dad's scenes where really good) the idea that she CHOSE to wear this armour is ridiculous. The other gladiators, male or female, wore about as much armour. It's all part of the blood sport.
    Admittedly, there werent a lot of female gladiators I recall so its not like I had a lot to compare it to.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    God, the whole Kyros/Rebecca subplot was probably the part of the whole series I disliked the most. Both the "child grows up and helps the father solve the... just kidding, child does nothing and keeps being a liability to the end" angle and the "see, girls really should leave fighting to men" angle were super-annoying.
    It was one of the only things i got upset with myself in that arc. And i do considder it a titanic failing of Kyros in his duty as a father.
    Your suposed to give your children the strenght to stand on their own, not cripple them with archaic notions of "keeping clean" just because its a girl.

    And i can understand Kyros not wanting his daughter to build up the same sort of kill streak that he has. It is something that can weight a person down. But there is no excuse for him not teaching Rebecca to knock people people out with a blunt sword. We could have gotten a female version of Kenshin instead of yet another boring damsel in need of resque
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It was one of the only things i got upset with myself in that arc. And i do considder it a titanic failing of Kyros in his duty as a father.
    Your suposed to give your children the strenght to stand on their own, not cripple them with archaic notions of "keeping clean" just because its a girl.

    And i can understand Kyros not wanting his daughter to build up the same sort of kill streak that he has. It is something that can weight a person down. But there is no excuse for him not teaching Rebecca to knock people people out with a blunt sword. We could have gotten a female version of Kenshin instead of yet another boring damsel in need of resque
    Wasn't it more that the whole royal family had a ban on violence than just Rebecca?

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Kantaki : Ah, ok.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It was one of the only things i got upset with myself in that arc. And i do considder it a titanic failing of Kyros in his duty as a father.
    Your suposed to give your children the strenght to stand on their own, not cripple them with archaic notions of "keeping clean" just because its a girl.

    And i can understand Kyros not wanting his daughter to build up the same sort of kill streak that he has. It is something that can weight a person down. But there is no excuse for him not teaching Rebecca to knock people people out with a blunt sword. We could have gotten a female version of Kenshin instead of yet another boring damsel in need of resque
    Absolutely. Hell, that would have been LOADS more interesting, and they had the room right there to set it up, she had over a decade of tutoring by a man who spend decades himself specializing in exactly that fighting style and becoming a damn legend with it, AND a solid decade of nearly none stop and often deliberately lopsided fights in a blood sport environment. The ground work was there for her to have mastered both Haki disciplines and be, as you said, a female Kenshin. Hell, given that you left Trebolt standing as long as you did, how unreasonable would it really have been for her to have heard from one of those inmates she was kind too just as a rule, who was in for being in a Bar fight with Trebolt what his particular trick and weakness were? Something that inmate had deduced in the fight before being over powered and put in there to die, that he told her as a thank you for keeping him alive?

    And then leverage that into her knowing how to beat him. They fight Diamante, she knows her dad needs this and she contents herself to covering herself form attacks once he get's there and lets him take the ass hole down. And then she presses on, and get's there in time to take Trebolt off the board and get Law clear of the final duel. Just have her take some damage in the fight with Trebolt and/or with Diamante before her dad got there, and have her be sensible enough to know she's very tired and wounded already, and she'd be having to split duty covering a helpless ally against a ruthless and intelligent and powerful enemy. Subsequently, she's sensible enough to know having taking his top executive out, she should just take the helpless ally and withdraw from the fight, and let Luffy take Doffy.

    Hell, even have her comment to her father that they both need to get patched up and as well rested as possible cause if Doffy manages to take out Luffy somehow, they need to be ready to jump in and keep pressing the attack while he's still exhausted, out of allies and grievously wounded, cause they will never get another chance like this and time for there people is running out.

    It would have been a significant improvement. (Hell, it would even, given the circumstance's, make her attire forgivable. "I was forced to wear it, I have, now that it's full scale revolt, chosen to wear it a few hours longer, so that I can rub it in Doffy and Diamantie's faces as I stand over there broken and defeated bodies.

    Then I will keep the sword but I will melt this insulting excuse for armor down and never wear it as armor again.")




    It's particularly bad given the stuff we have going on around Senior Pink and Franky, how horribly curb stomped Robin and Nami kept getting this arc, the Tonttatta princess who's a plot device damsel if ever there was one, and as a topper, the stuff we see out of Baby 5 at the end of Punk Hazard and in this arc. It's that shonen thing I though for certain they were going to do and that they mercifully avoided with Boa Handcock. (By avoided I mean we saw her at Marine Ford crushing Pirates and Marines under foot like it was nothing, saw her clobber Smoker with no particular strain at a point were he was still credible and indeed, had just a moment before been shown to still be stronger then Luffy, and saw her hold her own on even footing with Hawkeye Mihawk, and we saw that she had exactly the ability to One Shot the majority of people at Impel Down, including that beast mode Warden of there's. )


    I'm just glad that they are at least implying that Sabo's right hand lady is just as much a tremendously powerful fighter as he is, and that Viola isn't' strong but she's being shown to be smart and have a very very useful power. (Even that kind of annoys me. Doffy, you actually promoted her, why did she never wind up either form her own volition or you ordering it just cause you knew she didn't like violence anyway and your the kind of sadist who'd make her learn it as a result, study gun fighting under Gladious and/or martial arts under Lao G? I really want to know cause her with some guns, armament Haki and that devil fruit of hers, she'd be a mid to long range terror, and I bet with a master like Lao G tutoring her for 13 years she could get awfully handy at using that devil fruit in melee combat somehow as well as what we've been seeing. )

    Hell, for that matter, Captain Tank, how come you and yours in the palace protecting her never tried to teach her any of that stuff in case she ever had to participate in her own defense?

    I suppose Doffy might have forbade it but were never told that, we see he has her doing field work to benefit him and values her fruit power being used by someone alive and under his thumb, and we know he's enough of a sadist to say "Well, you hate violence, so we are going to MAKE you learn to use violence until it either breaks you or makes you more like meeeee! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!"







    Spacewolf : We know that years before Doffy was even on Dressrosa's radar King Riku had studied to be a highly effective swordsman and was known for getting into violent situations, and being willing if utterly needed to use violence when he considered the time to be right. Like with Kyro's as a young man for example. It's not the Royal Family, it's possibly King Riku's wife (I never comes up with her if she just didn't want to learn it or not before she's too dead for it to really matter.), Scarlet (Who probably after that kidnapping should have been made to learn something but ok, for her I'll make an allowance.), Viola (No excuse.) and Rebecca (Even less of an excuse.).
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Did the manga ever justify the golden chain mail bikini thing? I just ask because that had to be the most ludicrous outfit I have ever seen someone wear outside of a videogame to fight in. So unless she was being setup to die/be humiliated, I just cant figure out what the deal was with that. Also this scene made me more than a little uncomfortable.
    How many guys in the series fight bare chested or in well-fitted suits?

    Don't hear nuthin' about that.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    That's a fairly decent counter point actually. Also, I'm pretty sure it was done just to humiliate her by displaying her like a piece of meat to people that had been duped into hating her in an arena were people were going to try to kill her. Which is a logical justification if your objective is to make people hate the bad guy.
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Considering the other relationships Doffy had with people like Baby5...it's probably not too far fetched. Though I find the complaint regarding Rebecca and her sexualization to be pretty hollow in general. Considering the wide number of body types (the first villain of the series was a fat chick) that Oda has drawn (ignoring the same-Nami-face for a portion of the series) and how little actual fanservice there is...Rebecca's pretty unique.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    If you really want to complain about something with her, the fact that after all that training and fighting she's still this thoroughly incompetent at the 1 thing she should be good at is much more fitting.
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    She does really well until Doffy and his top people come into the picture. Which makes sense, she says she's no match for any of the Executives. But she made it to the last round of the Mira Mira no Mi battle. People are even stunned that Luffy dodged her which means not many other people have. They remark that it's her combat style that makes her not as potent a fighter because she refuses to kill. It takes Diamante to actually outright defeat her.

    Rebecca is a victim of not being an important combatant more than women in One Piece not being allowed to be powerful.
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-07-18 at 11:20 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    No, she literally only doesn't get wiped out of the ornament several times because of willful actions of other gladiators to team up with and protect her. They were surprised Luffy got away because they were holding him down for her and he still dodged it. She's not shown to be powerful. She can't cope with gunfire at all, unlike her teacher, she can't use armament Haki, she can't cope with even mild level martial artists or any flavor of devil fruit use.


    She's shown to be weak and very much a liability to the group, the whole way through, in spite of over a decade od training with a guy who IS on the level of the top executives at a minimum, even after he's been maimed, and 10 years fighting none stop for her life in that arena.

    She should be a force to be reckoned with, but she isn't and that's shown repeatedly, so that we can praise her for not being a killer and ignore that her teachers fighting style for ages was to use a blunt sword to knock people out and that she could simply have picked that up and written the problem away.

    The fighting style thing is a lame excuse, not a reasonable justification.
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    No, she literally only doesn't get wiped out of the ornament several times because of willful actions of other gladiators to team up with and protect her. They were surprised Luffy got away because they were holding him down for her and he still dodged it. She's not shown to be powerful. She can't cope with gunfire at all, unlike her teacher, she can't use armament Haki, she can't cope with even mild level martial artists or any flavor of devil fruit use.
    In the manga she's shown defeating quite a number of people. The anime may cut that stuff out, IDK, I don't bother watching the anime. She isn't shown to be weak however. Her tile in the Colosseum is The Undefeated Woman. You don't earn that without ya know. Not be defeated. It doesn't matter if she can use armament Haki. Half the Strawhats can't use it. Is that a sign of weakness? She has Observation Haki, does that not count for anything? Guess not. Kyros doesn't have ANY Haki at all. He only handles gunfire because of Jet Walk. Something he didn't teach Rebecca for whatever reason. That's not Rebecca's fault, that's Kyros's fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    She's shown to be weak and very much a liability to the group, the whole way through, in spite of over a decade od training with a guy who IS on the level of the top executives at a minimum, even after he's been maimed, and 10 years fighting none stop for her life in that arena.
    Kyros is not on the "level" of any of the Doflamingo Pirate Executives. I have no idea where you're even getting that sort of idea but it's just not at all supported by the actual events in the story. He barely wins against Dimante at the Sunflower Field. He almost loses to Gladius, would have if he hadn't be rescued, the list goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    She should be a force to be reckoned with, but she isn't and that's shown repeatedly, so that we can praise her for not being a killer and ignore that her teachers fighting style for ages was to use a blunt sword to knock people out and that she could simply have picked that up and written the problem away.

    The fighting style thing is a lame excuse, not a reasonable justification.
    She's shown, and told, to be a force to contend with outside the monsters that come to get the Mera Mera no Mi. She's undefeated until the Block D fight for the fruit. She wins all the way up to that point with and without assistance. She's the only person in the arena to stand up after Hekuba's assault. She defeats Rolling Logan. All without assistance. What more do you want? What more do you even need?
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-07-18 at 11:52 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Kyros has Observation Haki, don't know if he knows it's called that or not, he almost certainly failed to tell Rebecca if he did know. Armament is more debatable. Yes, she's the undefeated woman, as long as all you throw at her are bottom level mooks who don't have guns. the minute you escalate past that she's in trouble. She BARELY scrapes buy in every fight against an enemy with an actual name. And those are the one's she can scrape buy in. It's almost immediate that she's shown being in over her head.

    And it is at least partially Kyroses Fault. Yes. He could have taught her that it's ok to knock out someone attacking you or to defend yourself and using a blunt sword for that is ok, and taught her to handle being shot at and to knock people out or otherwise none lethally incapacitate them, and she'd have been off to the races.

    He didn't for some either inexplicable or insanely mind bogglingly stupid and asinine reason. Or for meta reasons that are even more BS.





    Doffy offered him an executive job. He beat down several of them to GET at Doffy when Sugars spell was broken and her spell only worked on him cause Sugar, as I've mentioned, is freaking Hacks enough to beat almost anyone instantly with minimal effort and more then anyone can only be beaten with the power of plot and, given how they've taken her out twice now, by defeating herself as much as anything.

    He fought Diamante on terms that were favorable to Diamante, and still won. And Diamante was in Doffy's top 4 executives. And while Rebecca is shown struggling with low level mooks, even maimed he can just blow right past them.

    "Here's a throwaway display of something akin to competence so that I can pretend I'm not making her a burden and liability for the rest of this very, very very long arc against very dangerous and powerful and evil people. Now on to making her a burden and a liability for the rest of this very, very very long arc against very dangerous and powerful and evil people."

    As mentioned above, tweak her training, just a little, and let it take it's natural course, and you could have had a legitimately strong character in more then one sense, who legitimately contributed something to the fighting. We could have had a woman version of Kenshin Himora and we could have let her be on a level with her maimed father and let her do some things worth doing. Instead, we got the damsel we got.

    And in the context of some of the other stuff in this arc to boot, it comes off really, REALLY badly.
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Kyros has Observation Haki, don't know if he knows it's called that or not, he almost certainly failed to tell Rebecca if he did know. Armament is more debatable.
    No. He doesn't. He doesn't have any of the three Haki forms. He really really doesn't. You're mistaken. Armament isn't debatable at all. He's never shown to use it. Full stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Yes, she's the undefeated woman, as long as all you throw at her are bottom level mooks who don't have guns. the minute you escalate past that she's in trouble. She BARELY scrapes buy in every fight against an enemy with an actual name. And those are the one's she can scrape buy in. It's almost immediate that she's shown being in over her head.
    Well she's not entirely useless than, now is she?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And it is at least partially Kyroses Fault. Yes. He could have taught her that it's ok to knock out someone attacking you or to defend yourself and using a blunt sword for that is ok, and taught her to handle being shot at and to knock people out or otherwise none lethally incapacitate them, and she'd have been off to the races.
    Maybe he can talk some sense into Kenshin after he's done with Rebecca.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    He didn't for some either inexplicable or insanely mind bogglingly stupid and asinine reason. Or for meta reasons that are even more BS.
    Because....ya know....Rebecca isn't even the tertiary main character of the series. Not every character can be uber and win and stuff. If that's B.S...I sure don't want to see anything you've written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Doffy offered him an executive job.
    Means nothing. A position is a position, it doesn't mean anything in terms of power. I also don't recall this in the manga. Was this something added to pad the run time? I think it was. He was never offered a position on the Executives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    He beat down several of them to GET at Doffy when Sugars spell was broken and her spell only worked on him cause Sugar, as I've mentioned, is freaking Hacks enough to beat almost anyone instantly with minimal effort and more then anyone can only be beaten with the power of plot and, given how they've taken her out twice now, by defeating herself as much as anything.
    Yeah...this totally didn't happen in the manga. The executives are Diamante, Trebol, Pica and Vergo. None of which he beat until he beat Diamante in the end. Before the spell or after the spell was broken. I guess the English Dub calls them Elite Officers? W/E.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    He fought Diamante on terms that were favorable to Diamante, and still won. And Diamante was in Doffy's top 4 executives. And while Rebecca is shown struggling with low level mooks, even maimed he can just blow right past them.
    After a load of help and tons of damage to himself, he sure did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    "Here's a throwaway display of something akin to competence so that I can pretend I'm not making her a burden and liability for the rest of this very, very very long arc against very dangerous and powerful and evil people. Now on to making her a burden and a liability for the rest of this very, very very long arc against very dangerous and powerful and evil people."
    PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST. I know this may come as a shock to you, but sometimes you put in weak character regardless of their gender or abilities because that raises the stakes. It's called storycrafting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    As mentioned above, tweak her training, just a little, and let it take it's natural course, and you could have had a legitimately strong character in more then one sense, who legitimately contributed something to the fighting. We could have had a woman version of Kenshin Himora and we could have let her be on a level with her maimed father and let her do some things worth doing. Instead, we got the damsel we got.
    We could have but again the story isn't about Rebecca. She's not meant, narratively, to be the Female Kenshin. It wouldn't have fit in the story, it would have been a different story. I doubt a better one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And in the context of some of the other stuff in this arc to boot, it comes off really, REALLY badly.
    Well, like, that's just your opinion man.
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-07-19 at 12:36 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    1: I'll check links when I'm not at work.

    2: Everyone she needs to be able to contend with either has stacks and stacks and stacks of guns, or is not a mook. If you can't deal with either, but have to fight both, you are useless as a combatant. If she had something going for her like Violet did with a power that had some uses that were none combat, ok, you could make that argument. She doesn't.

    3: Please tell me that was meant to be a joke and it just came out badly?

    4: She's central to this arc and a major part of more then one of this arcs sub plots. The logic your using dictates that Aokiji, San Goku, Boa Handcock, Hawkeye Mihawk, Talifanger Law, Ivankov and a host of others like them should also all be uselessly weak.

    5: Means a lot, Authority more often then not in this universe is directly related to one's personal combat prowess. Like, so much so that it's notable when it doesn't happen. And I have no idea what the Dub did with it I'm watching the subs, were in the clearly explain that there are Executive's and TOP executive's. The one's you listed are in the latter category. The executives include people like What's her Face who ate the Snow Snow fruit, Dellenger, Baby 5, Senor Pink, Lao G and Gladious. Among others.

    And he absolutely was. You are incorrect on that point.

    6: Yes, he got badly hurt by fighting someone he was at a comparable level too. Just like when Luffy fought Lucci he got badly hurt. He was fighting someone at his level after all.

    And the only help he got was help getting to were Diamantine was to fight him in the first place, and help form Robin removing a certain pink haired chainmail bikini clad liability named Rebecca so that Kyro's could stop getting hurt shielding her while also insisting she not protect herself cause morality and at the same time also insisting she was way out of her league even though HE WAS THE ONE WHO TRAINED HER TO BE OUT OF HER LEAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was good to go as soon as she, and then Cavadash when Diamantine got to be more then she could handle even peripherally, took protecting Rebecca off his plate so that he could focus.

    7: And sometimes you make characters needlessly unequipped for the challenges you mean for them to face for bad reasons, and it hurts the story your trying to tell instead. All signs point to Rebecca being one of those times.

    8: I could simply make the same assertion. See how that works?
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    I need an identification of a character. In this clip, there is a guy smoking a pipe and wearing a suit. I see him following garp around in a number of clips but I dont think ive ever seen him identified. Who is he? Why is he there?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I need an identification of a character. In this clip, there is a guy smoking a pipe and wearing a suit. I see him following garp around in a number of clips but I dont think ive ever seen him identified. Who is he? Why is he there?
    His name is Bogard. He's the right hand man of Garp. His rank is unknown.
    Last edited by Razade; 2017-07-19 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    No. He doesn't. He doesn't have any of the three Haki forms. He really really doesn't. You're mistaken. Armament isn't debatable at all. He's never shown to use it. Full stop.
    This is fan-made, its really not evidence for anything.
    It is problematic though that Haki on anything but the highest levels are rather subtle, and therefore hard to prove either way. We cant say if Kyros's rather brutal attacks are augumented by the same low level of haki as the amazons on Amazon island.

    But since Rebecca uses observation Haki then there is a high chance Kyros taught her that. And it hardly matters, Zorro has shown us the degree of inhuman swordmansship that is possible without concious use of Haki. Rebecca held the potential to be almost this badass if not crippled by her fathers wow that she should not get blood on her hands.

    Well, like, that's just your opinion man.
    Metahuman isnt the only one that has complained about how awful a father/teacher Kyros were.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    This is fan-made, its really not evidence for anything.
    Wiki's are great repositories for this kind of information. Especially considering they cite their sources. Nowhere did I say it was infallible. But it's certainly a better repository than the guy who only watches the anime or the dude who can't even get character names correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It is problematic though that Haki on anything but the highest levels are rather subtle, and therefore hard to prove either way. We cant say if Kyros's rather brutal attacks are augumented by the same low level of haki as the amazons on Amazon island.
    Yes we can. Because Oda started using the Black covering after that arc to show any use of Armament Haki. Why is it, in this thread in particular, that people immediately leap to "We don't know so they must have X" and then make up really bad leaps to excuse it. The time to believe something is when it's backed up by evidence. We're never shown Kyros using any kind of Haki. Does that mean 100% he doesn't have it? No. But he didn't use it in ANY fight, so the fact of that pretty clearly makes it seem he doesn't have that power.

    "Oh well...maybe he does but he doesn't know it's called that" Nonsense argument. "Well maybe he does but it's just a weak form" More nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But since Rebecca uses observation Haki then there is a high chance Kyros taught her that.
    No there isn't. There's literally NO chance. There's so much wrong with this statement it's practically killing me.

    1. No one has to teach you how to use Haki. Usopp used Observation Haki without being taught for example. No one taught Coby either.

    2. Kyros doesn't have Observation Haki. How could he teach a sense he doesn't have.

    3. The "well he must have" argument is bumkis from the outset. There's no evidence for this, there musn't

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And it hardly matters, Zorro has shown us the degree of inhuman swordmansship that is possible without concious use of Haki. Rebecca held the potential to be almost this badass if not crippled by her fathers wow that she should not get blood on her hands.
    He wasn't using Haki. And it's Zoro. One R. The two r one is from a different series.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Metahuman isnt the only one that has complained about how awful a father/teacher Kyros were.
    And it's just like, your opinion too then.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Honestly, I don't think the in-universe explaination about Kyros only teaching Rebecca defense moves is very important. Even if we assume he did the best he could, and that a less defense-oriented Rebecca would probably have been killed during her fights at the Colosseum, the whole thing still makes for a terrible story with a couple (possibly unintentional) stupid messages.

    And, to make things worse, a superfluous terrible story. If these two characters didn't exist, the whole arc could have played exactly the same, but with better pacing. And Robin (a freaking main character) could have had a decent fight against the bad guy.

    (To be clear: I love One Piece as a whole, and I liked the Dressrosa arc though it's not my favorite. But the whole Kyros/Rebecca subplot seems something extraneous to the rest of the arc, and taken from a much worse manga).
    Last edited by Cozzer; 2017-07-20 at 05:12 AM.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    The Rebecca plot for Dressrosa is meant to lead into Mariejoa later down the line. It's setting up another royal family that is on the Straw Hats side. This is why it's important.

    I do think it could better, and there's a lot of implications of how the story plays out that are unfortunate, but also very clearly not intended at all. Kyros's motivation for not wanting his daughter to fight is because she is his precious adorable good daughter who he doesn't want to get hurt, and unfortunately this comes off as "ladies should stay in the kitchen" because Kyros is rude and gruff about it. It's a real shame because their story on the whole is actually very good, Kyros being this bloody violent gladiator who can barely stand to hold his own daughter because "she is so pure and innocent, I do not want to stain her with my bloody hands." That's actually a really powerful message, and it's a shame that in practice the writing didn't quite hit as well as it could of.


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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Wiki's are great repositories for this kind of information. Especially considering they cite their sources. Nowhere did I say it was infallible. But it's certainly a better repository than the guy who only watches the anime or the dude who can't even get character names correct.
    Well, so much for bothering to try and be civil then. So you think the dude who cant manage to support his own arguments is a more reliable source of information than a guy who has trouble remembering exact spelling of a unfamiliar name?
    The trouble with a wiki is that everyone can indeed write whatever they want, that means you dont even know who the exact source of information is there.

    Yes we can. Because Oda started using the Black covering after that arc to show any use of Armament Haki. Why is it, in this thread in particular, that people immediately leap to "We don't know so they must have X" and then make up really bad leaps to excuse it. The time to believe something is when it's backed up by evidence. We're never shown Kyros using any kind of Haki. Does that mean 100% he doesn't have it? No. But he didn't use it in ANY fight, so the fact of that pretty clearly makes it seem he doesn't have that power.

    "Oh well...maybe he does but he doesn't know it's called that" Nonsense argument. "Well maybe he does but it's just a weak form" More nonsense.
    Back to Haki in a lot of cases being invisible. And you a provenly wrong on Haki always being visible black when used after the timeskip.
    Look at chapter 686 page 20. Tashi cuts a Logia user there, without the visible black effect on her sword.

    Someone who clearly hasnt bothered to do his research should perhaps be a little more careful with calling others theories for nonesense. Especially when they turns out to be viable.

    No there isn't. There's literally NO chance. There's so much wrong with this statement it's practically killing me.

    1. No one has to teach you how to use Haki. Usopp used Observation Haki without being taught for example. No one taught Coby either.

    2. Kyros doesn't have Observation Haki. How could he teach a sense he doesn't have.

    3. The "well he must have" argument is bumkis from the outset. There's no evidence for this, there musn't
    I should clearly make it a few additional times then. Perhaps the shock would help you realise just how silly a statement that is. The one time there is litterally NO chance of something like that is when we got word of god on it. Otherwise it might at most be highly unlikely. It is an important destinction, do try and learn it.

    And its not like its highly unlikely either.
    1. It is true for all types of Haki than you can be lucky and learn to use it on your own. But Luffy, Zorro and Sanji all needed to be taught using it conciously. And so it is more likely to be something you have learned from a teacher.
    2. We dont know if Kyros has it.
    3. This then falls to the ground. All types of Haki is normally something mastered by training with another user. Its a lot more likely that Rebecca reached her level of skill by training under a master than on her own.

    He wasn't using Haki. And it's Zoro. One R. The two r one is from a different series.
    Perhaps not conciously. Whatever the power source Zorro has been doing a lot of things thats clearly and blantantly supernatural, even in the world of OP.
    So the fact remains that this is the benchmark for what can be achived though dedicated from an early age, without a trainer that can use haki.

    And it's just like, your opinion too then.
    No, its proving the comment that i quoted wrong. Namely that its an oppinion only held by a single person.

    I do think it could better, and there's a lot of implications of how the story plays out that are unfortunate, but also very clearly not intended at all. Kyros's motivation for not wanting his daughter to fight is because she is his precious adorable good daughter who he doesn't want to get hurt, and unfortunately this comes off as "ladies should stay in the kitchen" because Kyros is rude and gruff about it. It's a real shame because their story on the whole is actually very good, Kyros being this bloody violent gladiator who can barely stand to hold his own daughter because "she is so pure and innocent, I do not want to stain her with my bloody hands." That's actually a really powerful message, and it's a shame that in practice the writing didn't quite hit as well as it could of.
    I honestly dont think that part is to good either. It kinda implies Kyros cant get redemption no matter what. Or that Rebecca needs to be sheltered instead of turned into someone that can stand on her own.

    But it is a shame, because it has the potential for an extremely strong story. One of the sadder ones in OP. Where Kyros loses almost everything that matters to him but his daughter. And maintains a silent vigil over her for 10 years forgotten by everyone else, just patiently waiting for his chance.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The Rebecca plot for Dressrosa is meant to lead into Mariejoa later down the line. It's setting up another royal family that is on the Straw Hats side. This is why it's important.

    I do think it could better, and there's a lot of implications of how the story plays out that are unfortunate, but also very clearly not intended at all. Kyros's motivation for not wanting his daughter to fight is because she is his precious adorable good daughter who he doesn't want to get hurt, and unfortunately this comes off as "ladies should stay in the kitchen" because Kyros is rude and gruff about it. It's a real shame because their story on the whole is actually very good, Kyros being this bloody violent gladiator who can barely stand to hold his own daughter because "she is so pure and innocent, I do not want to stain her with my bloody hands." That's actually a really powerful message, and it's a shame that in practice the writing didn't quite hit as well as it could of.
    I hope thats true, and that it has more of an effect than it did in naruto. I was looking forward to some big deal where all these nations naruto saved, or rulers he inspired all came together to turn the tide in some meaningful way. Only for most of them to be noncanon filler crap and even the stuff that WAS canon had little purpose beyond its arc.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I hope thats true, and that it has more of an effect than it did in naruto. I was looking forward to some big deal where all these nations naruto saved, or rulers he inspired all came together to turn the tide in some meaningful way. Only for most of them to be noncanon filler crap and even the stuff that WAS canon had little purpose beyond its arc.
    Please, minor NPCs that showed up in the background of a flashback came back 400+ chapters later. This is One Piece, the royal meeting at Mariejoa will be VITALLY important.


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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    If I may interject for a moment on a minor point, it's honestly not that hard to get names right, especially when those names are plastered all over the place wherever you'd find these characters AND literally everyone else that posts here spells it correctly on a consistent basis. If you cannot get it correct despite both of these facts over an extended period of time then I have to question your observation skills.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well, so much for bothering to try and be civil then. So you think the dude who cant manage to support his own arguments is a more reliable source of information than a guy who has trouble remembering exact spelling of a unfamiliar name?
    The trouble with a wiki is that everyone can indeed write whatever they want, that means you dont even know who the exact source of information is there.
    A wiki is more than reliable in this case, you're being absurd. I've done more than enough to support my argument. Kyros doesn't show the ability of Haki. It's more reasonable to assume he doesn't have it than to make adhoc justifications. And what Sigh said, if you've read the series and everyone is spelling the name correctly...the name isn't that unfamiliar.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Back to Haki in a lot of cases being invisible. And you a provenly wrong on Haki always being visible black when used after the timeskip.
    Look at chapter 686 page 20. Tashi cuts a Logia user there, without the visible black effect on her sword.

    Someone who clearly hasnt bothered to do his research should perhaps be a little more careful with calling others theories for nonesense. Especially when they turns out to be viable.
    Oh...this is good. Firstly, I didn't say "always visibly black", I said Oda STARTED TO USE BLACK TO SHOW ARMAMENT HAKI USE. STARTED. You found the singular page where it doesn't happen to try and drag my argument down, when it wasn't even my argument. A+. You'd have a point if, literally the next panel, wasn't the character going "CRAP!!! HAKI!". Considering that art is a visual medium it's good to show and tell when you can't show. Do you want to go further into those chapters where Vergo is very clearly covered in shiny black? Or Luffy's arms when fighting Ceaser? No? Ok then.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I should clearly make it a few additional times then. Perhaps the shock would help you realise just how silly a statement that is. The one time there is litterally NO chance of something like that is when we got word of god on it. Otherwise it might at most be highly unlikely. It is an important destinction, do try and learn it.
    Distinction, by the way.

    And I'm not arguing for 100% he doesn't have it certainty here. As I more than openly said.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And its not like its highly unlikely either.
    1. It is true for all types of Haki than you can be lucky and learn to use it on your own. But Luffy, Zorro and Sanji all needed to be taught using it conciously. And so it is more likely to be something you have learned from a teacher.
    2. We dont know if Kyros has it.
    3. This then falls to the ground. All types of Haki is normally something mastered by training with another user. Its a lot more likely that Rebecca reached her level of skill by training under a master than on her own.
    1. No they didn't, they needed to be taught how to refine it. Specifically Zoro needed to be taught how to use it on his swords opposed to his body. We're never told if Sanji needed to learn how to use his Haki. The Okama didn't mention it.

    2. Yeah, we don't. But it's less reasonable to presume he does. Which isn't what you're doing.

    3. No it's not. You're making crap up again. Nowhere in the series does it say one has to be trained to do Haki. On the contrary, Silvers says it's a natural thing but not everyone will come to understand how to use it themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Perhaps not conciously. Whatever the power source Zorro has been doing a lot of things thats clearly and blantantly supernatural, even in the world of OP.
    More assertions without anything to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    So the fact remains that this is the benchmark for what can be achived though dedicated from an early age, without a trainer that can use haki.
    No it's not. Your posthoc rationalizing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    No, its proving the comment that i quoted wrong. Namely that its an oppinion only held by a single person.
    Nope.

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    Default Re: One Piece V: Black Leg Wedding

    So, a new chapter. She actually wields her hat familiar as a sword, but that's probably the least important part of the chapter.

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