Wonder Woman

[LaZodiac]

This may or may not help your suspension of disbelief, but it's apparently a classical art reference that sailed over almost everyone's heads!

Spoiler: Diego Velázquez, Mars Resting

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The painting is a largely satirical depiction of Mars that was painted in 1640.

Deciding that Ares saw that painting and liked it unironically and that's why he took this form.

[dehro]

Isn't half the point of the movie

Spoiler

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The revelation that the sword is a decoy and that she herself, without the weapons, is the godkiller?
Basically this is wonder woman her growing up and coming of age moment. Half the themes of wonder woman revolve around her being tied up by social mores and breaking free both literally and figuratively.. so she starts out with the sword and then she goes on without it and beyond it. In some ways this follows your theory about the discarding of phallic weapons (mind you, I find
the entire notion of phallic weapons debatable at best, but there you go)

[LaZodiac]

Isn't half the point of the movie

Spoiler

Show

The revelation that the sword is a decoy and that she herself, without the weapons, is the godkiller?
Basically this is wonder woman her growing up and coming of age moment. Half the themes of wonder woman revoke around her being tied up by social mores and beading free both literally and figuratively.. so she starts out with the sword and then she good on without it and beyond it. In some ways this follows your theory about the discarding of phallic weapons (mind you, I give
the entire notion of phallic weapons debatable at best, but there you go)

Spoiler

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Yeah, this.

Also, regardless of the genuine fact that yes, long slender stabby thrusty things are definitely phallic, they're also the optimum shape for stabby thrusty death. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar people.

[Kyberwulf]

On the Native guy thing.

I find it ironic that people here are splitting hairs on either he was talking about Americans or Canadians. And simply refer to him as native american. He was obviously talking about white people in general.

I think someone's ideas of being a smuggler is over romanticized. To be a smuggler you just need to be willing to break laws. To be a good one you need experience. We can assume he has both since he is said to be both. I don't see how race has anything to do with it. Also, I don't know how much profiting he seems to be doing. When we see him in the town, he seems to be pretty much just giving away his merch. I mean I assume he charges the soldiers more though.

On the topic of wonder woman. I don't care if she uses weapons. She was being trained all her life to be a warrior. To me that means you are trained in everything you can go not die.

Which is also why I have no problems with her being worried about getting hit by bullets and things. I know someone asked why she would be.. being invincible,but she was clearly shown to be cut by the bullet. Grazed? Steve watched the wound healing. Not only that, I assumed in her years of training, her not immortal and invincible teachers had spent countless hours and days teaching her... To get out of the way of potential deadly objects. Besides even IF I had moments of invincibility, I would still avoid things that might maim or kill me. I don't know the extent of it. Not do I want to be surprised by some material that manages to break it.

[Lacuna Caster]

That's not to say if one's handy and she really needs it for some contrived reason she can't pick it up, but it should be discarded the moment that purpose is resolved or the immediate need passes. It's also not to say some other stuff she has can't have a vaguely offensive capability. Her tiara can do the whole boomerang thing, but it also does other stuff. The lasso can be a fairly strong whip, but it's a lasso first, a lie detector second, and a weapon third at best.

If she needed such a weapon it would be unique and iconic by now, but she went decades without it just fine.

To be fair, for most of those decades I gather Wonder Woman was sort-of terrible. Giving her a sword and shield and other combat paraphenalia may be a recent invention, but it happened under Greg Rucka and Gail Simone, and I'm not about to argue with those two. Speaking personally, I'm perfectly happy to see a superhuman bruiser winning with tools and tactics that resemble actual tools and tactics.

Besides even IF I had moments of invincibility, I would still avoid things that might maim or kill me. I don't know the extent of it. Not do I want to be surprised by some material that manages to break it.

Now that you mention it... part of the story here is Diana not knowing the full extent of her strength, so it's possible she blocks bullets and the like out of habit rather than necessity?

[lord_khaine]

To be fair, for most of those decades I gather Wonder Woman was sort-of terrible. Giving her a sword and shield and other combat paraphenalia may be a recent invention, but it happened under Greg Rucka and Gail Simone, and I'm not about to argue with those two. Speaking personally, I'm perfectly happy to see a superhuman bruiser winning with tools and tactics that resemble actual tools and tactics.

I think her using supernatually forged weapons and armor is also one of the more succesful parts of her reimagening. It makes her a bit more of a warrior. And it sets her slightly more apart from just being a female variant of superman.

Now that you mention it... part of the story here is Diana not knowing the full extent of her strength, so it's possible she blocks bullets and the like out of habit rather than necessity?

For a large part of the movie she did think she were an amazon. And she did notice another amazon killed by a bullet as someone else already pointed out. Its not that its a bad habbit to be in anyway. Her bracers are still one of the most indestructable things in the DC universe. I dont recall ever seeing anything damaging them. And we can be certain Darkseid will have things much more nasty in his armory.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, the whole "godkiller" plotline was weak and never really came of anything. It's strange that no one on the island would ever tell Diana that she's super powerful, and stranger still that she wouldn't just figure it out herself. Like, when she decides to climb the tower to steal the sword is when she first realizes she's super strong??? Come on, that's laughable.

We're told that if she trains Ares will find her... but we never see that. In fact, she could have gone the entire fight with Ares not realizing she was the godkiller and also not knowing the extent of her powers. Because no one ever told her either. Ares, in his great wisdom, tells her himself that she is the secret weapon created to destroy him.

And... did the Amazons just keep that sword in the fancy frame purely to make it seem more important than it really was? It's just weird that the entire island of Amazons would be in on this deception to the point of making false props, when Diana is literally their greatest weapon to use against Ares, which is the whole point behind their existence at this time.

[Vogie]

Yeah, the whole "godkiller" plotline was weak and never really came of anything. It's strange that no one on the island would ever tell Diana that she's super powerful, and stranger still that she wouldn't just figure it out herself. Like, when she decides to climb the tower to steal the sword is when she first realizes she's super strong??? Come on, that's laughable.

We're told that if she trains Ares will find her... but we never see that. In fact, she could have gone the entire fight with Ares not realizing she was the godkiller and also not knowing the extent of her powers. Because no one ever told her either. Ares, in his great wisdom, tells her himself that she is the secret weapon created to destroy him.

And... did the Amazons just keep that sword in the fancy frame purely to make it seem more important than it really was? It's just weird that the entire island of Amazons would be in on this deception to the point of making false props, when Diana is literally their greatest weapon to use against Ares, which is the whole point behind their existence at this time.

It may be that Ares didn't know she was the godkiller at first, but just an Amazon - until he saw her in action, and she announced herself to him. The whole citadel with a special framed sword would also be a distraction for anyone invading Thym... Paradise Island as well. If all you know about an area is that there's a weapon called the Godkiller, and you see a fortified citadel with what looks like a special sword, you'd think that's the Godkiller.

[Dr.Samurai]

It may be that Ares didn't know she was the godkiller at first, but just an Amazon - until he saw her in action, and she announced herself to him.

Hmm... maybe. I didn't get that impression but it's a possibility.

The whole citadel with a special framed sword would also be a distraction for anyone invading Thym... Paradise Island as well. If all you know about an area is that there's a weapon called the Godkiller, and you see a fortified citadel with what looks like a special sword, you'd think that's the Godkiller.

Yeah, good point. I hadn't thought of that. This makes sense.

[dehro]

Now that you mention it... part of the story here is Diana not knowing the full extent of her strength, so it's possible she blocks bullets and the like out of habit rather than necessity?

my work here is done

[Kyberwulf]

Or no one could really have known on the island. Just the queen. Even then, zues could have just dropped off the baby and sword and was like.... it's special and a god killer. And not been very specific. Everyone could have thought the sword was the god killer and that WW was special too. Not really a god though. More like Hercules

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't know. Antiope seemed to know when she was talking to the queen. And Diana is the only child on the island.

It would just be silly if they didn't know. It's like... this is why the bad guys win. Because the good guys are stupid. Thank god that Ares threw that lightning bolt and Diana let it swirl around her bracers for a moment before willing it to fire back some how, because Ares might have just won.

It's just so contrived and boring. To me, of course.

[Jayngfet]

To be fair, for most of those decades I gather Wonder Woman was sort-of terrible. Giving her a sword and shield and other combat paraphenalia may be a recent invention, but it happened under Greg Rucka and Gail Simone, and I'm not about to argue with those two. Speaking personally, I'm perfectly happy to see a superhuman bruiser winning with tools and tactics that resemble actual tools and tactics.

The hell are you on about? Wonder Woman had a great silver age, a great post crisis run, and more than a few good stories. Don't shoot your mouth off if you don't know what you're talking about. The only thing people consider to be terrible is usually O'Neil's run, but the runs immediatley after were great because they actually put in the work to reconcile that version of the character with the classic one and move forward instead of "I'm the writer now, what I say goes no matter how little sense it makes".

And for the record, given the last five or six years of what's been put out, you're perfectly free to say neither of those writers is that great. Hell, O'Neil's done way better stuff than either of them and I have no reservations about how he was flat out the wrong choice for a WW book.

[dehro]

that's not how you do passive agressive

[Lacuna Caster]

The hell are you on about? Wonder Woman had a great silver age, a great post crisis run, and more than a few good stories.

I've only had very scattershot exposure to WW material, but it broadly syncs up with the assessment I linked, and it's not the only one. Maybe this is an unfair comparison given the general upward creep in production values since the war, but I found, say, The Hiketeia much easier going than her initial 8 issues starting in 1942, in a way that doesn't strike me when it comes to, say, Golden Age vs. Post-Crisis Superman.

If there are any particularly good runs you recommend I dig into, feel free.

[BRC]

That take seems to be mostly gushing about how much the author loves Big Barda, very little about Wonder Woman herself, except to say that she doesn't meet his personal standards of a Beefy Warrior Woman. I wouldn't use it as a good gauge of Wonder Woman's publication history.


That said, I think that the whole Sword and Shield take on Wonder Woman is a workable version of what we demand from a superhero in this day and age.
Visually, people have been increasingly rejecting the Spandex look for Superheroes. It's still around here and there, but especially when it comes to female characters, people are trying to move towards more "Practical" outfits.

Like, don't get me wrong, there are still plenty of absurd costumes out there, but they usually are going for some other aesthetic, just with a Superhero twist. Like Catwoman robbing places in high heels and a catsuit. Still absurd, but it's "She wears a catsuit because she's a thief" rather than "She wears a bathing suit because she's a Superhero!"

"Superhero" as an Aesthetic alone no longer really cuts it, and Wonder Woman's classic costume was basically pure Superhero. You have to mix some other look in there most of the time.

Catwoman is "Superhero+Thief". Black Widow does something similar.
The latest Batgirl costume is "Superhero+Ordinary Street Clothes".
Captain Marvel goes with "Superhero+Fighter Pilot", although she leans pretty heavily towards the Superhero side of things.

Female characters are especially fond of redesigns these days, since so many of their costumes were blatant fanservice (See, Carol Danver's old Miss Marvel swimsuit).


The Pseduo-Greek Warrior look is a way to maintain the basic frame of the classic Wonder Woman costume, while not looking like she's parading around in a swimsuit. Sure, nobody really wore anything like what Gal Gadot wears in the movie, but it looks enough like something somebody MIGHT wear that it gets a pass. It's not a total rejection of the old look (The same way Captain Marvel's flightsuit and short hair are a rejection of her "Generic Hot Blonde in a One-Piece Swimsuit" look from before). The color scheme and general shape are similar enough for it to be A Wonder Woman Costume. It has the same Silhouette from the waist up. But it passes the standard for a modern Superhero outfit.

The Sword and Shield are about completing that look. If she's supposed to be "Greek Warrior+Superhero", she gets to be armed as such.

[Jayngfet]

snip

You're talking as if modern trends aren't MORE ridiculous. The faux leather and overlayed lines make no sense and have no real reason to be there. In the initial photo we see in the movie Diana looks out of place not because she's from a foreign place in weird clothes, but because 2000's era tacticool costumes look like ass when you throw them into a real world environment.

They aren't even actually practical. They do nothing but look busy and visually muddy.

[BRC]

You're talking as if modern trends aren't MORE ridiculous. The faux leather and overlayed lines make no sense and have no real reason to be there. In the initial photo we see in the movie Diana looks out of place not because she's from a foreign place in weird clothes, but because 2000's era tacticool costumes look like ass when you throw them into a real world environment.

They aren't even actually practical. They do nothing but look busy and visually muddy.

That's because the modern trends are trying to combine two separate things. Practical, real-world outfits, and Superhero Costumes, which are designed to serve different purposes.

The classic "Leotard and Spandex" look comes from Circus performers and Acrobats. Superheroes used it because it was supposed to symbolize that this person was performing incredible feats. That aesthetic eventually become the standard "Superhero" look.

The example I always think of is The Wrecking Crew
https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//.../Wreckcrew.jpg
They're supposed to be thieves, but with the exception of Crowbar-dude's mask looking a bit like a Ski-mask, the general Aesthetic is just Big-Tough Supervillains. Skintight Spandex, Domino Masks, and bright colors.

All that became Shorthand for "This is a comic book character. Expect to see them do Incredible Things". What I refer to as the "Super-Hero Aesthetic". It's supposed to look flashy and impressive.


Contrast this with what we'll call "Practical Clothes", clothes designed to fulfill a specific purpose.

Let's look at Captain Marvel. Her costume is roughly supposed to be a Flight Suit, something like this:
https://www.cockpitusa.com/media/cat...01-Z36C001.jpg

It's a pretty straightforward, simply garment. It's supposed to keep you warm, be easy to wear over another set of clothes, have lots of pockets, ect.

Now, let's look at Captain Marvel's outfit
https://assets.fastcompany.com/image...showrunner.jpg

It's got the general shape of a flight suit, but with lines on it that are supposed to imply some parts are armored (on a character with the Superman package). The Practical Pockets have been replaced with a few pouches on her loose belt. It doesn't look loose enough for her to wear over a set of normal clothes. The Superhero Flash requires that it show off her figure a bit. It's neither revealing, nor is it skin-tight.

No, it's not Practical. It's a Superhero Costume, just one that evokes a practical garment rather than swimwear or a leotard.

Because Superhero Costumes are supposed to look Cool. And these days that means Faux-Practicality with a big helping of Superheroic Flash. A Superhero Costume that evokes Real Clothes.

Wonder Woman is the same way. It's a Superhero Costume, attempting to look cool. The Purpose hasn't changed from the old days, but these days "Cool" mean evoking something practical. It's not a set of armor, it's just supposed to remind you of one.

And you know what? I like that. I've never been a fan of the Spandex-And-Leotard look. Like, I'm okay with it most of the time. Some costumes that fit that motif are immortal classics, others are just very well done. But a lot of the time the only purpose they serve is to say "Hey, this is a comic book. Look at this guy wearing trunks on the outside. Like people in comic books do."

Personally, my favorite superhero design of the modern age is America Chavez: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ica_Chavez.png

Rather than a Superhero Costume that evokes Real clothing, she goes with real clothing that evokes a superhero costume. She's got the bright blocks of color and a big symbol on her chest, but everything she's wearing there is something you could buy in an actual store. She seems perfectly at home both on a comic book cover surrounded by costumed heroes, and walking down a street surrounded by civilians.

[Lacuna Caster]

That take seems to be mostly gushing about how much the author loves Big Barda, very little about Wonder Woman herself, except to say that she doesn't meet his personal standards of a Beefy Warrior Woman. I wouldn't use it as a good gauge of Wonder Woman's publication history.

Sure, it's mostly about Barda, but- again, as far as I can tell, based on sporadic sampling and secondary sources- his comments about the problems with WW are pretty accurate. Many superheroes suffer to varying degrees from retcon fatigue, self-censorship and editor/owner turnover, but it seems especially prominent in Diana's case, with costume changes just being a highly visible side-effect. It's specious to dismiss an objective problem with the character's management history as not meeting one person's taste.


Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong if there are some outstanding stories buried in the older back-issues, but you're going to have to give me exact coordinates, so to speak.
.

[Legato Endless]

I don't know. Antiope seemed to know when she was talking to the queen. And Diana is the only child on the island.

Yeah, I was sort of assuming it was an open secret kept from Diana by everyone else on the Island.

It would just be silly if they didn't know. It's like... this is why the bad guys win. Because the good guys are stupid. Thank god that Ares threw that lightning bolt and Diana let it swirl around her bracers for a moment before willing it to fire back some how, because Ares might have just won.

The film establishes that Diana can reflect attacks from the bracers. It wasn't inexplicable, it was just one more dramatically slowed down repetition of what Diana had been doing with them before. Now, why Ares decided to shoot her with two lightning bolts after seeing her deflect one 10 seconds ago is definitely more questionable tactically. Maybe he was hoping to overwhelm her defense with a stronger blow?

Yeah, the whole "godkiller" plotline was weak and never really came of anything. It's strange that no one on the island would ever tell Diana that she's super powerful, and stranger still that she wouldn't just figure it out herself. Like, when she decides to climb the tower to steal the sword is when she first realizes she's super strong??? Come on, that's laughable.

Maybe I'm misremembering something, but doesn't Diana's power increase over the film? She goes from a relatively ordinary but well conditioned Amazon then she starts seeing bullet time and reflecting the blow of her mentor in a duel for the first time after a lot of fights where that obviously didn't happen. Then right before she starts crushing stone to climb the tower we see her slowly managing more dramatic leaps of strength. Then there's her vague apotheosis in the climax where she transitions from being overwhelmed to facing Ares more equally.

I was assuming part of the reason her mother didn't want her trained (in pursuit of keeping her safe) was because it would allow her to tap into the power she wasn't initially able to freely access and that would lead to inconvenient questions.

Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong if there are some outstanding stories buried in the older back-issues, but you're going to have to give me exact coordinates, so to speak.

While I can't make any claims to Diana as I'm not intimately familiar with her oeuvre (don't hit me Jayngfet), it's certainly a claim I'd see as reasonable elsewhere. There are a number of great (or at least iconic) characters in pop culture, especially comics, where despite being widely adored there are few great stories of them.

[Dr.Samurai]

The film establishes that Diana can reflect attacks from the bracers. It wasn't inexplicable, it was just one more dramatically slowed down repetition of what Diana had been doing with them before. Now, why Ares decided to shoot her with two lightning bolts after seeing her deflect one 10 seconds ago is definitely more questionable tactically. Maybe he was hoping to overwhelm her defense with a stronger blow?

That's an interesting point. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be the bracers shielding her in slow motion. They seem to create shock waves when they repel force, or just deflect actual projectiles. It looked more like the lightning didn't strike her and she simply sent it back. But it's slow mo, so maybe you're on to something.

I think my greater point is that the purpose of the Amazons and of Diana especially is to defeat Ares, and she was left to fight him without knowing that and without really knowing her powers/abilities. She just won because... we don't really know. Ares can shoot lightning I guess, and Diana can reflect the lightning back at him. And that's deadly to him, I guess. So, victory!

Like, by virtue of being the godkiller, she beat Ares. As opposed to... by virtue of being the godkiller, she has the potential to beat Ares. Maybe I missed it.

Maybe I'm misremembering something, but doesn't Diana's power increase over the film? She goes from a relatively ordinary but well conditioned Amazon then she starts seeing bullet time and reflecting the blow of her mentor in a duel for the first time after a lot of fights where that obviously didn't happen. Then right before she starts crushing stone to climb the tower we see her slowly managing more dramatic leaps of strength. Then there's her vague apotheosis in the climax where she transitions from being overwhelmed to facing Ares more equally.

I didn't see it as gradual as you did. Once we see her as an adult training, she does the shock wave with the bracers. Then there's the fight on the beach where she can see bullet time as you say. Then she has super strength when she sneaks into the tower that night. It's all in the course of a single day. If the idea is that all of the training unlocked her powers, it doesn't really come across that way. It was more like "oh, Steve Trevor is here, the story is starting, Diana has super powers".

In the fight against Ares, it wasn't clear to me that she couldn't do that stuff before (whatever it was she was doing... flying? absorbing energy?). She just did it in her fight against Ares. But I didn't get the impression that she couldn't do it before. But it could have totally gone over my head.

I was assuming part of the reason her mother didn't want her trained (in pursuit of keeping her safe) was because it would allow her to tap into the power she wasn't initially able to freely access and that would lead to inconvenient questions.

I think that's probably what they were going for. I think it's a weak premise to begin with though, so that's probably a large part of why I maybe missed what they were trying to portray.

[The New Bruceski]

I read that initial bracer shockwave as her awakening, so the other powers were part of that; things she couldn't do before and didn't know she could now until she tried. But that's just my read on it, they definitely didn't get explained.

Tearing through the Germans after the trenches was so brutal (in a good way) that I'm surprised they didn't go for her being a child of Ares rather than Zeus. Part of the effect of being able to have extended shots in combat scenes (rather than the quick-cuts necessary for actors who can't throw a punch to save their lives) was that it led well into lingering on the aftermath too. Lots of scenery went crunch and the camera didn't flinch from it. I was really surprised that the church destruction shot led into people being happy, it scanned like Hulk-style overkill.

[lord_khaine]

I read that initial bracer shockwave as her awakening, so the other powers were part of that; things she couldn't do before and didn't know she could now until she tried. But that's just my read on it, they definitely didn't get explained.

I though it was obvious enough that it did not need to be explained.
Both from the acting and from Hippolyta's comments about why she had not been told anything.

[Starbuck_II]

I read that initial bracer shockwave as her awakening, so the other powers were part of that; things she couldn't do before and didn't know she could now until she tried. But that's just my read on it, they definitely didn't get explained.

Tearing through the Germans after the trenches was so brutal (in a good way) that I'm surprised they didn't go for her being a child of Ares rather than Zeus. Part of the effect of being able to have extended shots in combat scenes (rather than the quick-cuts necessary for actors who can't throw a punch to save their lives) was that it led well into lingering on the aftermath too. Lots of scenery went crunch and the camera didn't flinch from it. I was really surprised that the church destruction shot led into people being happy, it scanned like Hulk-style overkill.

Shh, they will reveal she is really Ares's kid in the next WW movie. They revealed she is his kid in the new 52 I think.

[Lacuna Caster]

While I can't make any claims to Diana as I'm not intimately familiar with her oeuvre (don't hit me Jayngfet), it's certainly a claim I'd see as reasonable elsewhere. There are a number of great (or at least iconic) characters in pop culture, especially comics, where despite being widely adored there are few great stories of them.

Possibly, sure, but... I'm not sure what you're arguing for?

I think Jayngfet's original contention was that Diana using a sword and shield was thematically at odds with the character's core motives and powers. I would dispute the extent to which she's had consistent powers and motives over the past 3/4 century, but it strikes me that a character who's willing to kill a God shouldn't have particular qualms about using a sword, and anyone who tries to deflect missiles has no reason not to pick up a shield. She's not doing anything that she's not supposed to, she's just using tools that were actually designed for the purpose.

[Vogie]

Shh, they will reveal she is really Ares's kid in the next WW movie. They revealed she is his kid in the new 52 I think.

They could, but that's kinda dumb. They did hint that she was possibly Hades' child in the more recent animated series, but she didn't believe it, and no one else seemed to, and I don't think it came up again after that point

[BWR]

Finally got to see it (I'm less than pleased that Norway is getting some movies later than the US again) and am quite pleased. There were a few issues I could bring up but right now I'm feeling good enough that I won't bother. Maybe tomorrow.

[Anteros]

I think the whole "I am your father" bit is a little overplayed by this point.

I don't think Ares is actually dead though. He's basically her most iconic villain. Sure they could use Circe or Cheetah, but I don't think they would translate to live action very well. At least, Cheetah wouldn't.

For the sword...maybe it actually was special in some way. It was housed with all the other artifacts after all. It just wasn't special in the exact way Diana thought.

[Quiver]

I don't think Ares is actually dead though. He's basically her most iconic villain. Sure they could use Circe or Cheetah, but I don't think they would translate to live action very well. At least, Cheetah wouldn't.

This is one of my major problems with the film. As a result of it... Diana's entire supporting cast is pretty much gone. We have no gods, no Themiscyra, no Steve, Etta and Steve's team should be dead by now...

Now, they can walk back some of that. Maybe Ares didn't quite kill all the gods. Or maybe Justice League will lead into Diana trying to find her way back to Themiscyra. That's fine.

It's just... I don't know. Strange to me that this film is ina position where Diana has nobody other than Batfleck.

[lord_khaine]

I really dont see why thats a problem though. We already got a tie-in to JL, the movie can allow itself to be great on its own.