Dealing with criminal players

[Douche]

First time DM. Running a published campaign for 5e. Storm King's Thunder. It's been 5-6 sessions. One player is a rogue, and is quite a nasty one at that.

I'll put the specifics in spoiler tags, then I'll try to be general

Spoiler: SKT spoilers

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In Zephyros' tower, the Lords Alliance shows up to destroy his Orb of Navigation. The rogue outright shoots their leader &
instantly kills him while the others were in the middle of negotiations. They are one day away from Triboar & I ended the session as they are reaching town.

Basically the player is taking unilateral actions & murderhobo-ing while other players are in the middle of conversation. I think this is detrimental to the experience of the other players, who are either exasperated or uninvolved with their hijinks. The rogue also nearly got himself killed by a Glyph of Warding (would've died if he didn't make his death saves), and hasn't learned his lesson about unabated criminality yet.

Since they did this a days travel from the next important town they are going to reach, and killed 6 authorities (only 2 players took part in this btw), I'm thinking that they should be arrested for cold blooded murder. Otherwise, what advice do you guys have to deal with one party member being a psychopath to the detriment of the other players (who want to be Good)

[ComaVision]

Criminal character, man. Criminal character.

[Pronounceable]

Tell your player not to be a disruptive douche straight up. If a player doesn't want to play the game the rest of them want to play, he shouldn't be there. Don't bother with ingame stuff, that's at best worthless here.

[Geddy2112]

You have an IC and probably OOC problem. Your player is not a criminal, but their character is.

Most civilized lands and societies don't tolerate open murderhobos. Enforce the consequences-if the character plays stupid games, they win stupid prizes. If I was the DM, this kind of murderhobo would have been arrested or killed long ago. Heck, if I am a player and I see this crap(and the campaign is not about us all being murderhobos, or evil vagrants, or some other reason the entire party is doing this) I get pretty miffed and speak out. Enforce the consequences of their actions, going out of your way so only the murderhobo gets the rewarsds

The bigger problem is the one out of character, but also somewhat easier to solve/prevent. Some players do this kind of thing for attention, a few do it to truly roleplay, but most do it because they like hack and slash. The easiest way to prevent this is give them combat early and often-try to start sessions with it, even if it is just some random encounter so they can quench some of their bloodlust. Lead them away from civilized lands to go kill undead, monster races, evil outsiders and whatever the heck society gives 2 thumbs up to stab and rip to shreds.
What is worse is that these actions can damn the party and waste session time. The party gets put in jail with the murderhobo, and worse is that they have to sit there, possibly for a long time, doing nothing as players as you have to cater to the player playing by themselves. Don't let them do this-it fuels the attention and reinforces the behavior. A ttRPG is a group game, and going solo to commit actions that are not within the party goal is a major no no. You never split the party, and that is exactly what this player is doing.

So, talk to the player and tell them that if everyone was on board to hack the town apart and it was a group effort, that is okay. Their behavior is wrong as a player because it goes against the group, and risky as a character because civilized societies frown on murderhobodom. I would explain this in detail and tell them that if they continue in character, their character is going to die(or be jailed, tried, and executed) and they will roll a new one. If they continue doing this as a player, they have no place in the group(again, going against the group is the major wrong action, not killing an NPC). After this, give them a chance to stop being a murderhobo-in exchange, you will wipe the slate clean of their past murderhobo, anti teamwork ways.

[lx66]

Convict them of a crime and force them to be in cuffs and stuff with guards or something. They sure as hell should be dealing with consequences of their crimes. Crime is crime regardless of the setting.

Maybe some Suicide Squad style enforcement policy. Maybe take away all their money and rare items? There are a number of punishments that could be enforced and allow them to continue the adventure.

[RustyArmor]

They should almost get rid of the rogue class XD.
Seems when these type of problems always come up its always the rogue. There is a reason they why they switch the name from thief in 2nd ed.

[Honest Tiefling]

Tell your player not to be a disruptive douche straight up. If a player doesn't want to play the game the rest of them want to play, he shouldn't be there. Don't bother with ingame stuff, that's at best worthless here.

Quoting this because it is short and simple and absolutely true.

Personally, I qualify ****ing up plans of the party on purpose like this as PvP. Killing allies is also PvP. Not sure what the PvP rules are for your table, however.

[Jornophelanthas]

You have more than one issue, so that requires more than one solution.

Problem: The rogue is engaging in drastic, violent and reckless behaviour.
Solution: Actions have consequences. Let these consequences play out. The rest of the party are associated with the miscreant, and should face this backlash too.
Possible outcomes:
- The rogues changes their behaviour. (Talk to the player too, to tell them that this is what you are aiming at.)
- The party distance themselves from the rogue, possible even kicking the rogue out of the party. (Talk to all the players that this could be an option. Be warned that this could start conflict between players. Avoid that.)
- The rogue is punished so severely the character becomes unplayable, e.g. executed or locked up in maximum security prison with no chance of escape or release. The player needs to create a new character. (This is a last resort if the player chooses to not change their character's behaviour, despite all the subtle and not-so-subtle prodding. Warn them several times that they are at risk of losing their character.)

Problem: The rogue is doing drastic things without consulting the other players, and without warning.
Solution: This one is easy. If the other players are present in the scene, do not let him do this unchallenged. Force him to make a stealth or bluff check before he can begin. Grant the other players perception or sense motive checks to notice him starting something. Give a bonus to this check if any player indicates their character is keeping an eye on the rogue. Every player who makes the check, notices the rogue's intention before he starts doing it.
The rogue and every player (and NPCs) who makes the check then proceed to rolling initiative to play out their actions in a surprise round (so only 1 action!).
If one of the players who makes the check shouts out a warning, all PCs and NPCs rolls initiative (no surprise round).
If the rogue's player chooses not to make a stealth or bluff check at all, all PCs and NPCs notice his intentions automatically. Everyone rolls initiative (no surprise round).
Explain these rules at the start of the first game session you intend to use them, so everyone knows this beforehand.

[GrayDeath]

Criminal character, man. Criminal character.

This cannot be said often enough.

Please guys (and girls^^), stop referring to players (no matter if it is "when can I kill my players/Criminal Players or Players sacrifice Virgin" it always ... is just wrong on so many levels^^).

As for your Situations. you are the GM.
You can say "no you don`t because that would ruin the fun for all/this is a tam game", thene xplain to him why this is a bad bad idea.

Dont let him walk all over you

[Darth Ultron]

Otherwise, what advice do you guys have to deal with one party member being a psychopath to the detriment of the other players (who want to be Good)

Well, feel free to talk to him. I don't recommend this, but you can try. He might drop down to his knees and say ''my gosh I have been so wrong'' and then suddenly become the best player ever. Though, chances are he will just say ''don't tell me how to have fun '' or something like that.

The first thing you can do:

Make his actions not worth it: Simple enough: He takes all the time and effort to break into a room and a chest and finds some copper coins. Or nothing. He takes the time to kill every guard in a spot, and gets some suits of armor, swords and silver coins....but no XP. 5E is nice and clear about PC's don't get experience if something is not a challenge or risk and if something is not an encounter.

Make his actions cost: Again simple enough. He has to use up items and abilities to get...little or nothing. This is even better if you take the step of adding in loosing or destroying equipment and things like curses. When he uses up two potions, a once a day ability, takes 10 points of damage, and is effected by a curse.....was getting 22 copper coins worth it?

Make his actions have consequences: He does something and it has an effect, BUT see below...

And my most important one...

Make his actions not disrupt the game: Any wacky ''criminal'' actions the PC does either don't matter or only have negative effects for him.

One of my all time favorites is the Clone Conundrum. Where Wacky player muderhobo's and kills Sanj the innkeeper. Then they come back to the inn a couple days later and find Sanj the inn keeper there. Oh, does that drive the poor murderhobo crazy....and they will likely kill the npc again. And then come back the next day and find Sanj at the inn...again. For a lot of bad players this third time is when they get violent, scream about ''player agency'' and go running from the house. Even if they stay they just get so upset that they sit in the corner and shake as they just ''Groundhog Day'' themselves into a coma (''ok, sigh, fine, my character goes back to the inn for the 34th time, sees Sanj there, and kill him, again!'') Meanwhile the rest of the group fights and kills the lich king, gets xp and goes up a level and each of them finds a ring of wishing in the treasure. While the other player in the corner cries ''what, no fair! Oh, and I kill Sanj for the 134 th time''.

There are other spins too. Like Sanj has like five identical twin brothers, each named Sanj. Or whoever takes over the inn renames themselves Sanj.

And you can even put the twist into the game. Like Sanj is a construct, or a shapeshifter or such. So there will always be a ''sanj'' at the inn.

And there is always the higher power route...where a god or epic character or such brings Sanj back to life.

And it's even more fun then ever if Sanj comes back to life...but now has the ability to turn lead into gold. But good Sanj does not want gold, as the laughter of his daughter is his greatest treasure, so he does not use it....lol. While the poor crazy player is lying on the floor smashing Mt. Dew cans on his forehead.

It can also work by just making NPC's a higher level then the characters, or give them magic items. Another of my favorites is the Peasant Guard: a small item like a pin or amulet that protects the npc with a powerful effect, like stoneskin or ironguard or anti magic shell, but only from crazy attacks by crazy evil monstrous foes. I love magic items like that. It's ''anti-murderhobo'', but the crazy murderhobo can't use it. It's can be even better if the item melts away if stolen or the murderhobo does still kill the npc somehow.

But you should never, ever disrupt the whole game by the actions of one bad player. Even if the bad player kills the mayor or whatever....just have the guards want to arrest him, not the whole group.

Form experience I can tell you that after a couple of games like the above the crazy criminal murderhobo bad player either: suddenly does not want to game anymore or will suddenly role play like a normal player. It's really amazing.

[Yora]

It makes no sense for the other characters to allow that rogue to stay in their party. They almost certainly want him gone but the players assume that they have to endure it because it's an unspoken rule of the game that the PCs have to stay as a party.

If the other players don't like having that character in the party, then it's the job of the GM to remove that character from the game. If the player agrees to play another character that is friendly to the party and cooperates with them he can stay. If he doesn't want to than he has to leave the game.

Most RPGs are made for parties and characters that don't cooperate with the party have no place in it.

[Kiero]

Criminal character, man. Criminal character.

This. Seriously, I thought this was going to be a completely different thread.

[Yora]

At least he didn't kill another player.

[Douche]

A good point about not giving more attention to the murderhobo... Positive reinforcement, or negative, it is not helping by giving him more attention.

I was considering throwing him in prison, but that would just be giving more attention to the problem. Then the rest of the party will feel obligated to help him get out & will eat up more session time.

Instead, I'm just going to have the Lord Protector of the next town tell them that she knows what they did, but can't prove it... So she's going to have her eyes on them, and they will be totally screwed if they step out of line. The whole "Gee, 5 powerful warriors just wandered into town - people started losing expensive stuff & getting murdered... I wonder who did it?" quandary

[Twizzly513]

I had the exact same problem with a player once. I bet we all have, but he refused to make a character that was not a) insane b) murderhobo and c) a cannibal.

The way I dealt with it was this: Make those things much harder and give them nothing for it. Shut down every attempt to get out of line and reward the players who follow the plot. They'll see how the other characters prosper and hopefully they change to do that.

Trying to stab someone in an alleyway? As you approach they turn around to look at you and pull out a wand. That kind of thing will make them much more cautious if anything. And caution slows down rash actions and causes people to think, which is the objective.

[GungHo]

This. Seriously, I thought this was going to be a completely different thread.

Many prisons do not allow roleplaying games with dice because it's considered to be a form of gambling.

[dps]

Your player is not a criminal

Well, technically we don't know that for sure.

[FreddyNoNose]

You have more than one issue, so that requires more than one solution.


Problem: The rogue is doing drastic things without consulting the other players, and without warning.
Solution: This one is easy. If the other players are present in the scene, do not let him do this unchallenged. Force him to make a stealth or bluff check before he can begin. Grant the other players perception or sense motive checks to notice him starting something. Give a bonus to this check if any player indicates their character is keeping an eye on the rogue. Every player who makes the check, notices the rogue's intention before he starts doing it.
The rogue and every player (and NPCs) who makes the check then proceed to rolling initiative to play out their actions in a surprise round (so only 1 action!).
If one of the players who makes the check shouts out a warning, all PCs and NPCs rolls initiative (no surprise round).
If the rogue's player chooses not to make a stealth or bluff check at all, all PCs and NPCs notice his intentions automatically. Everyone rolls initiative (no surprise round).
Explain these rules at the start of the first game session you intend to use them, so everyone knows this beforehand.

I hate your approach on this. They are in the middle of negotiations talking, listening and whatnot. If they aren't stating that their characters are watching the character in question, he will likely get away with it. Having all of them check is heavy handed. Do you do that will all the other characters action when they are good and noble?

Not saying that zero chance of anyone NPC or PC noticing this. But if the criminal character is telling the DM he is observing and looking for a moment where it seems like the fewest (or none) are watching, then he is the one that is planning.


As to the DM. You have a learning experience here. Think about how these NPCs in this world with magic, poisons and people like the criminal PC that exist. Wouldn't they all take care in their dealings? You know your world and what magic might be available. Perhaps Purify Food and Drink is done over food before being served...to the leaders/important people. What protection items might the NPCs each have?


What to do now? The character is an assassin [do you allow them in your game? If not, is the player trying to create one on the sly?]. NPCs will deal with him in accordance with their laws/customs.

As to the player. You have a group game and while their are individuals playing together, there needs to be group harmony of some sort. What if this player starts doing things to his fellow players characters? Might it disrupt the game and cause people to quit or basically end the campaign? You need to get him aside and tell him what you expect. Kick him out if he won't agree with it.

[The Fury]

One of my all time favorites is the Clone Conundrum. Where Wacky player muderhobo's and kills Sanj the innkeeper. Then they come back to the inn a couple days later and find Sanj the inn keeper there. Oh, does that drive the poor murderhobo crazy....and they will likely kill the npc again. And then come back the next day and find Sanj at the inn...again.

You might want to be careful with this one. I've had some experience being a "criminal player" and for someone like me, killing Sanj might develop into a once per session running gag.

[The Glyphstone]

You might want to be careful with this one. I've had some experience being a "criminal player" and for someone like me, killing Sanj might develop into a once per session running gag.

"Oh my god, they killed Sanj! You bastards!"

[Tanarii]

Criminal character, man. Criminal character.

You have an IC and probably OOC problem. Your player is not a criminal, but their character is.

Sounds like the player is behaving criminally to me.

[The Fury]

"Oh my god, they killed Sanj! You bastards!"

You really get me.

[Deliverance]

Players:
You need to talk to the players about what is and what is not acceptable in games you run, to get some sort of unity of purpose.


Characters:
Assuming that somebody got away or the authorities has the magical means necessary to divine what happened, with the party about one day away from the next town this would seem an appropriate time to begin finding posters nailed to trees, notice boards, or whatever, with a likeness of the rogue, his name (if known), and a bounty on his head for murder, warning that he is armed and extremely dangerous so people should avoid him or shoot to kill, and that he may be accompanied by accomplices.

In all likelihood, your party will decide on some variant of one of these four approaches:

1. They may turn on him, kill him, and turn in his head, killing the rogue off for good. This may well require them to give an account of why they didn't stop him or require them to undertake some helpful mission as penance and their reputation in this area will definitely be mixed for some time, but this may appeal if most of your players really disagree with what the rogue did and didn't help him out after he started attacking - or if they did, and want to atone for it.

2. They may decide on some wacky scheme to get the reward without the rogue really dying - or with him dying and getting better. Sounds like an interesting adventure in itself, though a risky one and one that should probably end up with a few executions unless pulled off spectacularly well. (Anybody getting ideas about chopping off somebody else's head and using an illusion should be gently reminded that this is a magical fantasy world where checking for illusions is bound to be standard procedure in major cases before handing out bounty money. Or perhaps they just use divination or necromancy for interrogation.)

3. They may decide to take up a life as outlaws, either removing them from the campaign or forcing you to start a new one.

4. They may decide it is time to move on to pastures new, where they aren't wanted criminals.

In all cases except 1 or a successful 2, the party is thereafter at risk of being tracked down by bounty hunters up to and including other parties of adventurers.

Or they might decide something weird or unconventional I'm not thinking of right now; In all cases it is made clear that the actions taken have consequences and you have given the party the choice of how they want to address it before it is forced upon them by e.g. encountering armed guards calling for their arrest or attacking them.

I understand that none of these outcomes except possible 1 are palatable if you are playing a published campaign, but running a campaign that is not based around murderhobo players with such players present is nearly impossible to do unless you play everything for a laugh since they'll otherwise regularly spoil matters for everybody else at the table, fellow players and GM alike, and this goes the more so the more scripted a campaign is and you don't get more scripted than published campaigns.

[Joe the Rat]

Another way to take the wind out of the sails: Unearthed Arcana Downtime activities. Make it a Cutscene. Modifying the Crime option, ask for three rolls (pick from stealth, perception, investigation, deception - or thieves' tools if an honest-to-Mask B&E), set the DC (or roll 2d10 +5 if you want it to be random as to how tough/rewarding the excursion is), and reward 1/10th the listed money in looted pocket change and small goods for an impromptu bit of larceny. If rolls are flubbed, consequences ensue as listed. so whatever his grand goofy plan, it gets watered down to "going off to hijink? give me these rolls. Hmm... So you wake up in jail..."

That doesn't resolve the shoot the guy while talking issues, but that should initiate combat. Roll initiative, everyone else is surprised. Knucklehead never gets "a free shot," just surprise.

Also, the spoilered event will be a major hit on the party's reputation. How does everyone in Triboar know what you did before you get there? Damn Harpers.


Now all of this is mechanical and in-game consequences. Dealing with the issue out-of game would be a better solution, particularly if the other players are actually exasperated, not just the characters.

Many prisons do not allow roleplaying games with dice because it's considered to be a form of gambling.

Cards can be a workaround.

[The Glyphstone]

Many prisons do not allow roleplaying games with dice because it's considered to be a form of gambling.

It was years ago, but I distinctly remember a news article about a guy serving time in prison who had his DM notes and in-progress campaign setting confiscated by the prison authorities. Something about them being interpreted by the guards as coded plans for an escape attempt or something.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Criminal character, man. Criminal character.

So glad I'm not the only one to think of that...

Please guys (and girls^^), stop referring to players (no matter if it is "when can I kill my players/Criminal Players or Players sacrifice Virgin" it always ... is just wrong on so many levels^^).

I would have gone with "hilariously misinterpretable," but to each their own.

They should almost get rid of the rogue class XD.
Seems when these type of problems always come up its always the rogue. There is a reason they why they switch the name from thief in 2nd ed.

Its mechanical role is kinda iffy, too. Its main role seems to be dealing with traps, locked doors, and other obstacles inserted into dungeons for no other reason than flavor and to give the rogue something to do; worse, they're basically "roll a die to progress". They also have stealth (which is often underused) and sneak attack. At this point, D&D would probably be better off tweaking the rogue to be more of a scout.

Cards can be a workaround.

Right, those aren't used for any kind of gambling.



Anyways, on-topic. I've played in groups where one player goes off and does something stupid. I can't remember any specific examples of how we handled it, but the best general advice I can give to you is to make sure the fallout doesn't affect other players too much and talk to the player OOC. Worst-case scenario, take a page out of Journey to the West; I hear those migraine-inducing headbands are pretty stylish.

[Ninja-Radish]

I personally wouldn't even bother with crafting detailed, long-term in game consequences, that's too much work. I would just have a bolt of lightning from the sky kill the character, and tell the player to make a new character; one who isn't a disruptive douchebag.

[Dragonix]

your objective as a DM is to ensure that everyone is having fun. one player is ruining it for the rest of you because he wants to have his own kind of fun. don't overthink about the details. you have the power to rectify it immediately. a lot of folks already made suggestions but you need to rectify it immediately. the longer you prolong the situation and not do anything about it, the worse it would be for the rest of the other players. That would be on you.

[DRD1812]

I think maybe it's time this PC encountered Sharkoom the Titanslayer: http://www.handbookofheroes.com/arch...pic-level-npcs

More serious answer: tell him to knock it off. You don't get anywhere by trying to teach lessons through adjusting gameplay.

[Hooligan]

Everyone always responds to these questions by advocating punishment or "having a good ol sit down to discuss table etiquette".

I'm going to recommend you try a novel solution: have the other members cast their lots together with the murderous rogue and adopt his playstyle. It can work