Trying Out Angry's Time Mechanic

[HidesHisEyes]

Exactly, and there's no need for those resources to be arbitrarily limited to something. The complaint that flasks of oil shouldn't be a real concern whenever portable holes become available is irrelevant--the system makes no demand that resource expenditure be capped at some arbitrarily low level, any more than normal encounters.

How come? If they're not limited then surely players can just load up with an amount that's not going to run out, as Psyren suggests. This way the time pool tells them when they have to pause to put more oil in the lantern, which is something, but the oil itself still isn't a finite resource.

[Mendicant]

How come? If they're not limited then surely players can just load up with an amount that's not going to run out, as Psyren suggests. This way the time pool tells them when they have to pause to put more oil in the lantern, which is something, but the oil itself still isn't a finite resource.

My point is that tracking a specific resource like lantern fuel (or not) is a perfectly valid gameplay choice, but the dispute doesn't reflect on this particular time mechanic one way or another. Torches and rations are hardly the only party resources a DM can stress with a time pool. If lantern oil stops being a meaningful cost, that's fine, but the game escalates with the characters, and you can start hitting other resources in the deadlier dungeons they visit.

[HidesHisEyes]

My point is that tracking a specific resource like lantern fuel (or not) is a perfectly valid gameplay choice, but the dispute doesn't reflect on this particular time mechanic one way or another. Torches and rations are hardly the only party resources a DM can stress with a time pool. If lantern oil stops being a meaningful cost, that's fine, but the game escalates with the characters, and you can start hitting other resources in the deadlier dungeons they visit.

What resources do you have in mind? Light sources, rations... what else is there? I know there are crowbars and climbing equipment and similar, but even if they are a part of the game they don't really get used up.

As far as I can see, the potential of the system is in making time itself an intrinsically meaningful resource, and it does that by tying the passing of time to the chance of random setbacks. You won't worry about running out of lantern oil if you're carrying around another twenty gallons of it, but now you know that wasting time just generally leads to bad stuff happening.

[Mendicant]

What resources do you have in mind? Light sources, rations... what else is there? I know there are crowbars and climbing equipment and similar, but even if they are a part of the game they don't really get used up.

As far as I can see, the potential of the system is in making time itself an intrinsically meaningful resource, and it does that by tying the passing of time to the chance of random setbacks. You won't worry about running out of lantern oil if you're carrying around another twenty gallons of it, but now you know that wasting time just generally leads to bad stuff happening.

Resources don't have to be so mundane. For instance, extra-planar locales where elemental protection is required can burn through spell slots or wand charges, and if you run out you start burning HP. Or maybe there's some kind of magical storm or parasite that hits you with random, targeted dispels. Ability scores, consumable items, your supply of the plot ammo you need to kill the big bad, and bunch of other things can all be expendable resources. I ran one adventure where the PCs were trapped on a plane where they couldn't sleep unless they drank a thimbleful of its water. The water couldn't be carried in normal vessels, so when they wanted to move far from a well, they had to shepherd their supply of vials and really carefully decide who slept when. In that context even extremely minor random encounters were very problematic. You could build a dungeon where you get a big supply of magic gems midway through. Get the gems out of the dungeon and they're worth a fortune. The only problem is that for every 1 you roll when you're clearing the time pool, a gem detonates. It does minor damage if you don't mitigate it, and much more importantly to a greedy adventurer, money gets flushed right down the toilet.

I could go on, but the point is that while basic supplies might or might not be a serious concern depending on playstyle, you can use this mechanic regardless.

[Segev]

Best I can tell, it looks like a reasonable way to handle somewhat abstracted time passage when your primary pressure is random complications.

If you're already running a game with a living world where time's passage means changes in response to the players' actions, and they're in a hostile area with the ability to react to them, time passing is its own threat. Same is true if they're on a time-sensitive mission of any sort.

This may or may not be useful for increasing the tension felt by the players, for transmitting to them the urgency they "should" be feeling. I don't know.

[HidesHisEyes]

Resources don't have to be so mundane. For instance, extra-planar locales where elemental protection is required can burn through spell slots or wand charges, and if you run out you start burning HP. Or maybe there's some kind of magical storm or parasite that hits you with random, targeted dispels. Ability scores, consumable items, your supply of the plot ammo you need to kill the big bad, and bunch of other things can all be expendable resources. I ran one adventure where the PCs were trapped on a plane where they couldn't sleep unless they drank a thimbleful of its water. The water couldn't be carried in normal vessels, so when they wanted to move far from a well, they had to shepherd their supply of vials and really carefully decide who slept when. In that context even extremely minor random encounters were very problematic. You could build a dungeon where you get a big supply of magic gems midway through. Get the gems out of the dungeon and they're worth a fortune. The only problem is that for every 1 you roll when you're clearing the time pool, a gem detonates. It does minor damage if you don't mitigate it, and much more importantly to a greedy adventurer, money gets flushed right down the toilet.

I could go on, but the point is that while basic supplies might or might not be a serious concern depending on playstyle, you can use this mechanic regardless.

Point taken. I had been thinking in terms of fixed resources that will be a standard part of a whole campaign in the same way hit points are, but the idea of situational resources for individual adventures makes a lot of sense.

If you're already running a game with a living world where time's passage means changes in response to the players' actions, and they're in a hostile area with the ability to react to them, time passing is its own threat. Same is true if they're on a time-sensitive mission of any sort.

I think it's a great way to *create* such a game.

I've always struggled a bit with the "living world" idea. People assert that it's awesome, or even obligatory, but you rarely see much practical advice on how to create one. I find the amount of information I need to juggle to create the illusion of a living world at the table is overwhelming. This system gives you a structure to work with and some simple rules to follow, making it much easier.

[D+1]

You're concerned that the random encounters are always punishments.

Correct. In Angry's system it is punishment for just one thing - not moving through the dungeon/adventure fast enough. His stated concern is that the better strategy (taking lots of time) leads to a worse play experience. Time is a pain in the ass for the DM to track movement, spell and effect durations, and handle tons of added dice rolling for all the search attempts. Time otherwise has no value to the players although it is a currency they are allowed to spend – the PC's have all the time in the world so it means nothing for them to spend it recklessly. His solution?

It’s about dread. D&D really needs a mechanic to make the players DREAD the passage of time.

That isn't a concern with the time mechanics it's a concern with your view of random encounters. If random encounters are always hostile monsters that initiate resource draining fights with no rewards... Yeah, then the time mechanic is always a countdown to a bad thing (pointless and dull combat). If you have random encounter tables that go beyond just having monster attacks then it's not an automatic punishment.

No, it's Angry's view of his own mechanic. Every adventure, every dungeon gets a ticking clock with his dread mechanic:

The GM can find the thing in an adventure that hooks into the passage of time and use that to advance the plot. Or rather, to provide a setback for the players.

Even if the dungeon isn't flooding or the cultists aren't conducting a ritual that will summon a demon soon, something else that is an equivalent will happen. At any point where “time passes” (because the PC's do something that requires time – searching for traps, looking for clues and loot, solving puzzles, opening doors or chests, resting, etc.) more dice are added to the pool (valued at 3-10 minutes each) until the limit of 6 dice (about an hour) is reached, whereupon at EVERY point where “time passes” the pool will be rolled trying to make Something Bad happen. Rolling 6 dice looking for a 1 on just one of them it won't be long before the dungeon floods, the demon is summoned, or some other bad thing happens because: Too Much Time.

Every adventure becomes ALL about time. It's not just a new way to track when torches go out, spells expire, or how far the party has moved down a corridor. It's about driving the PC's further, faster, and with less caution, fewer clues, less treasure, and NO time allowed to spend on any of it except at a cost plainly intended to be higher than its worth. Because, again:

It’s about dread. D&D really needs a mechanic to make the players DREAD the passage of time.

At this the Time Pool is quite successful, but it doesn't solve the problem he initially said he recognized – that the better strategy (spending time) led to a worse play experience. I don't see how giving the players NO time to spend and an inevitable ticking clock on every adventure always leads to a better experience.

If there was a flaw in the original “system” it was in thinking that players would attempt to avoid monsters and traps and other "time wasters" to get just the treasure because the treasure was worth more, but because the xp from the monsters was also of value to the PC's it became a not-uncommon goal to kill as many monsters as possible just for the XP even though there would be no little or no treasure to go along with that fight. The random encounter that takes place in the corridors or somewhere unexpected which was intended to remind them to not waste TOO much time, would often be as welcome as the planned fight in the next room, so it would lose its usefulness as a prodding tool.

That said the entire mechanic is meant to penalize people for spending too much time on things that slow down play. Searching for traps/secret door everywhere and resting up after every little scuffle slows things down and changes the game away from adventuring.

Time is a currency for the players and their characters and they need to be able to spend it AT THEIR DISCRETION. The consequences for “passing time” can't just ALWAYS be bad. If they spend more time searching for secret doors they should find more secret doors rather than the ones they just blunder into without having to pay an added price for wanting to find the secret doors. If they spend time searching for treasure they should find more hidden treasure without having to fight more monsters ONLY because the search takes time and spending time must be punished.

Outside of the Time Pool system, unless the DM DOES assign a ticking clock to a dungeon, time is a ridiculously easily renewed resource for the players. It doesn't much matter - and shouldn't - if they spend 4 hours getting through a dungeon or 4 days. If there is no ticking clock there isn't a reason to rush - other than the DM wanting them to rush. Rushing means the PC's are then in a constant state of being incautious and being forced to overlook valuable gains that they would otherwise spend time accumulating. They miss secrets, clues, and loot because Bad Things will constantly happen with each hour they remain in the dungeon. Time spent by the players means things get worse, not that they get benefits and advantages from the time they spend. They are being intentionally driven to get in fast, get out with the least interaction with anything there, and go home. To spend more time is always Bad. Spending LESS time isn't even necessarily Good, it's simply less likely to result in more Bad.

A CSI forensic search of every square foot is indeed not something that either DM or players want. It does lead to a more dull play experience, even though it otherwise results in benefits “in game”. My conclusion has long been that if players are searching areas that they have no reason to be searching that is more likely a failure of the DM or the adventure designer – a failure of repeatedly putting vital and valuable things to be found in places where there was otherwise no clue that something was there TO be found. If players were failing to search areas where they ought to have been searching and thus missed clues, secret doors, treasure, etc, then that was as much or more likely a failure of the players to adequately describe to the DM what they were searching for, where they were looking for it, etc.

If a DM wants something to not be found then it is simplicity for the DM to arrange for it not to be found. If a DM wants players to have their PC's spend less time searching then the DM needs to give them less to search FOR and not waste their own time in tedious handling of what they KNOW will be a fruitless search. It is NOT bad form for a DM to simply state, “You search but find nothing,” without rolling a single die, without looking at the adventure key, without consulting a single table. If you want the PC's to spend less time searching for secret doors – include fewer secret doors. If you don't want them searching every square inch of a dungeon for treasure stop hiding it in places where it will require searching every square inch of a place TO FIND IT. If you want them to stop searching every square inch for traps stop slowing the game down with traps that require searching a dungeon to find.

The Time Pool is not the magic-bullet solution to the problem he stated that he identified.

[Thrudd]

If there was a flaw in the original “system” it was in thinking that players would attempt to avoid monsters and traps and other "time wasters" to get just the treasure because the treasure was worth more, but because the xp from the monsters was also of value to the PC's it became a not-uncommon goal to kill as many monsters as possible just for the XP even though there would be no little or no treasure to go along with that fight. The random encounter that takes place in the corridors or somewhere unexpected which was intended to remind them to not waste TOO much time, would often be as welcome as the planned fight in the next room, so it would lose its usefulness as a prodding tool.

In the original original system, you'd want to avoid wandering monsters because your characters could die, and fairly easily, and healing was slow. That's where the dread comes from. If you win the fight, you get some XP, yes. But every roll of the dice is a...roll of the dice. Every combat is a gamble with your character's lives, and if you play enough the house always wins. The system falls apart when this threat is missing.

[Tanarii]

It's worth noting again: Angry is in the middle of designing a Megadungeon. In that Megadungeon project, he has already decided that wandering monsters / random encounters will be worth just a small fraction of a set-piece encounter. He also has strongly implied there will be many adventure specific environment-related 'complications' that will occur along the way. Some will be triggered by specific player actions to further the adventure 'plot' (players releasing undead into the dungeon, players removing flooded areas, etc). But the complex environment and 'plot' easily allow him to have time-progressing random 'complications'.

And given its a dungeon, he's already noted the desire to be able to handle players deciding to take time (or not) and do 'noisy' things in regards to that project.

From that perspective, it makes perfect sense for him to have designed a Time sub-mechanic that encompasses more than just random encounters, and makes Time a highly visible and progressing resource for the players to take into account.

[Telok]

Every adventure becomes ALL about time... I don't see how giving the players NO time to spend and an inevitable ticking clock on every adventure always leads to a better experience.\

I think this is the part where you see things differently than I and some others do. I don't consider the time pool thing to be something that I have to use in every dungeon ever, without regards to what the purpose of the dungeon is. For me some dungeons and adventured may have time limits, others have wandering monsters, there may be intelligent inhabitants that fortify or set up ambushes in they know adventurers are around, and a few may not have any of those.

These sorts of things aren't "you must always do this without any flexibility", they're another tool in your DMing toolbox to be used when it's appropriate.

[Mendicant]

another thing that this mechanic does is reward certain skills more than they currently are, and it rewards spending resources to progress more efficiently. If picking a lock is a pass/fail when taking 20, or whatever the 5e equivalent is, it takes some of the fun out of being a master locksmith. Making a lockpicking check with this mechanic comes with a bit of tension and added satisfaction, since it can get you past that door without making time pass. Busting the door down gets you through but forces a roll against the pool. Casting knock gets you through but eats a resource. Taking 20 gets you through but costs a lot of time. How you move through becomes an interesting choice.

Similarly, if you've got a racial ability that lets you check for secret doors for free, that's now more valuable than if you could just declare you're giving every inch a thorough thrice-over without consequence.

[HidesHisEyes]

Time is a currency for the players and their characters and they need to be able to spend it AT THEIR DISCRETION. The consequences for “passing time” can't just ALWAYS be bad. If they spend more time searching for secret doors they should find more secret doors rather than the ones they just blunder into without having to pay an added price for wanting to find the secret doors. If they spend time searching for treasure they should find more hidden treasure without having to fight more monsters ONLY because the search takes time and spending time must be punished.

I've now used the system twice and so far it is nothing like what you suggest. Firstly, you make it sound like the "punishments" for taking your time are a much bigger deal than they turn out to be. PCs don't get a complication every time they slow down; the chance of future complications just gradually increases no matter what, and they can control the rate at which it increases to some extent by deciding how much to rush things. The attitude this seems to foster is not "keep moving, never slow down otherwise we ALL DIE!!" but "let's think about how much time we want to spend on this task..." That is, exactly the concern that is usually missing from D&D.

Secondly, spending more time to search for secrets and treasure absolutely DOES result in finding more secrets and treasure. The secrets are already there. Taking more time to search for it is a trade off: it increases the chance of something going wrong but in return you find that treasure or secret area. Time passing only has bad effects in the system because the good effects of being thorough and cautious are already inherent in the game. The time pool introduces COSTS, not punishments, and in doing so it introduces cost/benefit decisions that create actual gameplay and roleplaying where before there were just blithe assumptions.

[Segev]

As others have commented, a reverse side of the coin is that players WANT to take all the time in the world (when there's nothing pushing them) because they hate to miss things. Whether it's missing the trap that they could have disarmed before it goes off, missing the secret chamber behind the hidden door, or missing the clue that tells the more complete or alternative take on the background and lets them have more options for resolving the final conflict, players feel like they've missed out if they fail to find these things. And rightly so! Completionism is a thing in cRPGs for a reason!

Worse, sometimes GMs feel bad when their players miss things. Especially if they're things the GM felt were vital to understanding what's going on. "But," you might say, "that's the GM's own fault for making it possible to miss!" And you're right, but at the same time, the GM running a sandbox/living world with NPCs trying their best to achieve their goals can only leave clues so many places before it's unbelievable that nobody else figured it out already.

Now, what players don't know can't disappoint them, so a combination of ensuring that nothing CRITICAL to understanding what's going on is hidden behind a "succeed or fail" check of some sort, and not telling them when they miss things (as I've seen some DMs do, which always leads to sourness in the players; they feel like their victory has been robbed from them by learning they really failed) can help with this.

In fact, never telling the PCs they've missed something will probably go a long way towards helping make the "CSI crawl" less likely. They won't feel like failing to engage in it is being punished. You can also potentially make hidden prizes available later in the game as rewards that are harder/more dangerous to earn but unlikely to be missed. The secret safe in the mage's bookshelf holds a cool staff. But if the PCs don't find it early on, maybe the mage himself is WIELDING it against them later. They have a more dangerous foe who is using up charges in their loot, now! But they still can get that loot.