Why do people hate the forgotten realms?

[Scots Dragon]

I suspect there's a city called Moon Moon, which orbits the moon

There are a few, like Stardock, the Rock of Bral, something merely called the Castle, something else merely called the Citadel, Dragon Rock, and the Eye of the Sky, but none called Moon Moon.

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I love Spelljammer.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is still pretty common - people are constantly talking about "my setting". It seems a bit weird to me - why is "setting" so often singular?

I'll tell you why. The world I began to build in 1978-1979, and which got things added to it over the years (when I was inspired) is obviously never going to be completed. World building gets to be addictive, and it feeds itself. For quite a few years I ran adventures using the 1e World of Greyhawk and placing modules and my own adventures into it, because it was easier to do so and because I got hooked on modules. That, and I did a whole lot of filling in the blanks on a map of Tekumel as I ran three years worth of Empire of the Petal Throne games. (Not your stereotypical European story there!)

(As an example for what goes into world building, see Robin Hobb's world, the Six Duchies and other areas, of the Farseer stories and the Live Ship stories. What's awesome to me is that she built a second world for the Soldiers Son series ... it wasn't bad, but had nowhere near the depth of the other)

The critical thing I found in setting/world building was the need to have a lot of empty space between knots of civilization (maybe the old Outdoor Survival model just got ingrained in me) so that there is ample room to put a major adventure into that is "out in the wilderness" as well as adventures that take place in more or less civilized lands.

-----------

Musing. A few decades ago I read a load of FR novels. Finder's books; the Azure Bonds; The Cleric Quintet; the Crystal Shard and its follow on stories, and of curse the first three Drzzt books. I eventually just lost my taste for them. There were a few others by Elaine Cunningham I read that I can't recall just now, one involved a guy with a Slavic name on his vision quest. read the first Dragon lance series, the twins trilogy, and a few others before I finally had to stop. Krynn wasn't doing it for me.

[Rynjin]

Then when it introduces something a bit unique it's often poorly thought through, with the Wall of the Faithless and it's ridiculous implications for a generally goodish creator god being a perfect example.

Ugh. The Wall of the Faithless is what cemented my hatred of the gods in FR. In any other setting I could just ignore them and let them be bland somewhere else as long as I didn't play a Cleric. But no, I need to read up on them, find one that matches my alignment, and occasionally pretend to worship one of the lifeless mother****ers because there's mechanical consequences if I don't.

If I remember correctly the pre-Pathfinder Paizo adventure path, Age of Worms, featured a particular high-level Gandalf-esque guide who, if played in GREYHAWK^®, could be replaced with Tenser.

Yes. He prefers to be called "Manzorian" in the AP because he basically wants to be left alone, but kinda gets roped into things. He's pretty much a non-entity for most of the AP so far (we're in book 6 or 7 now), but occasionally gives us a lift somewhere or does some Divinations when we ask questions.

He's pretty much played as being a fairly selfish guy, is why he won't help as much as he could. We are the "prophecized heroes" after all, and he put in his hours already.

Gave us some pretty sweet loot for selling him part of an artifact we had no real use for though.

It didn't bother me as much as some other instances in other settings or games where on multiple occasions the GM has had to throw out specific contrived circumstances for why Elminster can't help or whatever. Tenser isn't busy elsewhere, he didn't lose his magic, he isn't saving his strength for later...he's just kind of a prick. The Bard and Cleric (because Greyhawk doesn't eat fun, you're allowed to have gods like Ollidamara) metaphorically tweak his nose constantly, which is fun.

[Âmesang]

One thought that comes to mind—and it's probably as lame of an excuse as any—is that if the super special awesome NPCs solved everyone's problems then how could everyone else be expected to grow? How did they grow if their forebears solved their problems for them?

……reminds me of Son Goku from Dragon Ball.

[lunaticfringe]

The gods, you have to have a religion or you are screwed for eternity, it's very Good always wins, don't get me started on Chosen nonsense, Mary Sues abound, the Novels affect the world, Cool things always get screwed over (Undermountain, Skullport), too many cooks in the kitchen.

A lot of this is older edition stuff as mentioned, but it gives people pause when something new comes out. They are already in **** This Mode. Current lore is pretty vague compared to previous edition which I like and they built in loop hole in case you a have a Canon Head in your group.

Still not a huge fan but it could be (and has been) worse.

[Sigreid]

Yes. He prefers to be called "Manzorian" in the AP because he basically wants to be left alone, but kinda gets roped into things. He's pretty much a non-entity for most of the AP so far (we're in book 6 or 7 now), but occasionally gives us a lift somewhere or does some Divinations when we ask questions.

He's pretty much played as being a fairly selfish guy, is why he won't help as much as he could. We are the "prophecized heroes" after all, and he put in his hours already.

Gave us some pretty sweet loot for selling him part of an artifact we had no real use for though.

It didn't bother me as much as some other instances in other settings or games where on multiple occasions the GM has had to throw out specific contrived circumstances for why Elminster can't help or whatever. Tenser isn't busy elsewhere, he didn't lose his magic, he isn't saving his strength for later...he's just kind of a prick. The Bard and Cleric (because Greyhawk doesn't eat fun, you're allowed to have gods like Ollidamara) metaphorically tweak his nose constantly, which is fun.

That's actually kind of awesome!

Player: "Mr. All Powerful Wizard, please help us stop Tiamat from entering and conquering the world!"

All Powerful Wizard: "Why? That crazy chick is no threat to me and she knows it."

[Ralanr]

That's actually kind of awesome!

Player: "Mr. All Powerful Wizard, please help us stop Tiamat from entering and conquering the world!"

All Powerful Wizard: "Why? That crazy chick is no threat to me and she knows it."

"I've got more important stuff to do anyway. Like gardening."

"But...the world!"

"The world needs more heroes kiddo. Plus I won't always be around to stop X from doing Y."

[Sigreid]

"I've got more important stuff to do anyway. Like gardening."

"But...the world!"

"The world needs more heroes kiddo. Plus I won't always be around to stop X from doing Y."

"Pfft. I've got nicer houses than this on a dozen more interesting worlds. It'll be fine."

[Tanarii]

"The world needs more heroes kiddo. Plus I won't always be around to stop X from doing Y."

Seriously. How else are potential minio... uh, henchmen supposed to gain levels, if you do everything for them? Gotta leave them some opportunities to save the world. You can always step in at the last second if they eff it all up.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I need to run the Realms, but turn Elminster into a senile old man who is creating more problems then he can solve. "The world will always need more heroes, Illiandriel!" "...That's not my name and I'm not an elf." "Good to hear!"

[Ralanr]

I think I need to run the Realms, but turn Elminster into a senile old man who is creating more problems then he can solve. "The world will always need more heroes, Illiandriel!" "...That's not my name and I'm not an elf." "Good to hear!"

So the main questline turns into playing hitman against a senile wizard?

I like that actually.

[JAL_1138]

I think I need to run the Realms, but turn Elminster into a senile old man who is creating more problems then he can solve. "The world will always need more heroes, Illiandriel!" "...That's not my name and I'm not an elf." "Good to hear!"

Pretty much Fizban, but actually senile?

A senile 20th-level Wizard could be horrifying.

"Get off my lawn!"

"It's a public square, sir—"

"GET OFF MY LAWN!" *Meteor Swarm* *city is on fire, thousands dead*

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think I need to run the Realms, but turn Elminster into a senile old man who is creating more problems then he can solve. "The world will always need more heroes, Illiandriel!" "...That's not my name and I'm not an elf." "Good to hear!"

So the main questline turns into playing hitman against a senile wizard?

I like that actually.

I've always liked 'magic corrupts'-type stories, like in Athas to some extent. It could be pretty awesome if constant magic usage eventually leads to mental breakdowns and insanity, meaning every powerful mage in the setting eventually becomes completely inept and insane. Imagine the damage that could cause to a world's stability, having your crazy grandpa flatten a city looking for his lost wand, which was in his robe the whole time.

[NecroDancer]

The reason high level NPCs don't stop the BBEG is because it's much more entertaining to watch the low level heroes try instead.

[Anonymouswizard]

The reason high level NPCs don't stop the BBEG is because it's much more entertaining to watch the low level heroes try instead.

I know want to run a game where the PCs and campaign villains are contestants on some reality show. They go through a dungeon, and everything just seems normal except for a lot of scrying the wizard can pick up. Finally, after months/years of hard work they make it to the BBEG's lair, punch his face in and close the portal to the Nine Hells he was planning to use to summon Asmodeus to the world, and Elminster pops up, congragulates them on being the first party to defeat the villain's plot, and gives them each 1,000,000gp and a trip to whatever destination they want.

[Sigreid]

Pretty much Fizban, but actually senile?

A senile 20th-level Wizard could be horrifying.

"Get off my lawn!"

"It's a public square, sir—"

"GET OFF MY LAWN!" *Meteor Swarm* *city is on fire, thousands dead*

"Brave heroes! Your quest is to get the Archmage Elminster to the old folks home before he hurts himself or shatters our reality."

[lunaticfringe]

I know want to run a game where the PCs and campaign villains are contestants on some reality show. They go through a dungeon, and everything just seems normal except for a lot of scrying the wizard can pick up. Finally, after months/years of hard work they make it to the BBEG's lair, punch his face in and close the portal to the Nine Hells he was planning to use to summon Asmodeus to the world, and Elminster pops up, congragulates them on being the first party to defeat the villain's plot, and gives them each 1,000,000gp and a trip to whatever destination they want.

So X Crawl in Standard Fantasy Setting in stead of Weird Modern Earth?

[Ralanr]

Pretty much Fizban, but actually senile?

A senile 20th-level Wizard could be horrifying.

"Get off my lawn!"

"It's a public square, sir—"

"GET OFF MY LAWN!" *Meteor Swarm* *city is on fire, thousands dead*

This made my day.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Now, personally, I don't hate the Forgotten Realms. I first cut my D&D teeth on Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights, I have a fondness for the setting. But, I can understand why people complain about its prominence and even bash it. Beyond any personal arguments that've been brought up before this point - overabundance of canonical heroes, mostly - there's one big issue.

The Forgotten Realms is tired.

Faerun has been released in every single edition of D&D. There are more Forgotten Realms splatbooks in total than there are for almost any other two settings combined, saving Dragonlance, which was the only one with equivalent popularity in its time. And almost every single one of those splatbooks can be found or is already in a player's possession. There's not information overload, but it's just overdone in terms of things to use.

In the three years 5e has been printing, we've had Hoard of the Dragon Queen (set in Faerun), the Rise of Tiamat (set in Faerun), Princes of the Apocalypse (set in Faerun), Out of the Abyss (set in Faerun), Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (a campaign sourcebook dedicated to Faerun), Curse of Strahd (set in the Demiplane of Dread), Storm King's Thunder (set in Faerun), Volo's Guide to Monsters (heavily Faerun flavored), and Tales From the Yawning Portal (setting neutral). And ahead of us we have Tomb of Annihilation (set in Faerun) and Xanathar's Guide to Everything (heavily Faerun flavored).

For comparison, within the three years of its initial printing, 4e gave us campaign & player's guides for Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dark Sun, 6 planar sourcebooks (Manual of Planes, Astral Sea, Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell, Heroes of Shadow, Demonomicon), a Dark Sun adventure, an Eberron adventure, a Forgotten Realms adventure, twelve Nentir Vale adventures, an Underdark sourcebook, two Draconomicons, an Undead sourcebook, two gear sourcebooks, a mini-adventures sourcebooks, two new Player's Handbooks, and class expansions for every class released up to that point! Not counting the stuff in Dragon & Dungeon Magazine - I know some Ravenloft purists will sneer down their noses at it, but at least we got new domains of dread instead of yet another remake of the original Ravenloft adventure module!

It's not that Faerun is a bad setting, because, really, it's not. The Forgotten Realms is the most popular and iconic established D&D setting for a reason, and it's a definitive example of the D&D style of high fantasy.

But, come on, seriously, give us a break! We're sick of it! Steak isn't a bad thing, but eating it for breakfast, lunch and dinner, seven days a week, for three years is a little too much!

That's why people are bashing the Forgotten Realms: because it's overplayed at this point. We want something new. We want a Sigil Adventurer's Guide, or a Manual of the Planes at least, for more cosmological gameplay options! We want a Khorvaire Player's Guide, so we can go back to Eberron instead of the Sword Coast! We want a Starfarer's Manual, to bring Spelljammer back to life!

We're tired of the same old dungeoning crawling stories. They're the staple of D&D, but they're well and truly played out at this point. Until Faerun gets a rest, people aren't going to stop kicking it in the ribs.

[Ralanr]

Now, personally, I don't hate the Forgotten Realms. I first cut my D&D teeth on Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights, I have a fondness for the setting. But, I can understand why people complain about its prominence and even bash it. Beyond any personal arguments that've been brought up before this point - overabundance of canonical heroes, mostly - there's one big issue.

The Forgotten Realms is tired.

Faerun has been released in every single edition of D&D. There are more Forgotten Realms splatbooks in total than there are for almost any other two settings combined, saving Dragonlance, which was the only one with equivalent popularity in its time. And almost every single one of those splatbooks can be found or is already in a player's possession. There's not information overload, but it's just overdone in terms of things to use.

In the three years 5e has been printing, we've had Hoard of the Dragon Queen (set in Faerun), the Rise of Tiamat (set in Faerun), Princes of the Apocalypse (set in Faerun), Out of the Abyss (set in Faerun), Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (a campaign sourcebook dedicated to Faerun), Curse of Strahd (set in the Demiplane of Dread), Storm King's Thunder (set in Faerun), Volo's Guide to Monsters (heavily Faerun flavored), and Tales From the Yawning Portal (setting neutral). And ahead of us we have Tomb of Annihilation (set in Faerun) and Xanathar's Guide to Everything (heavily Faerun flavored).

For comparison, within the three years of its initial printing, 4e gave us campaign & player's guides for Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dark Sun, 6 planar sourcebooks (Manual of Planes, Astral Sea, Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell, Heroes of Shadow, Demonomicon), a Dark Sun adventure, an Eberron adventure, a Forgotten Realms adventure, twelve Nentir Vale adventures, an Underdark sourcebook, two Draconomicons, an Undead sourcebook, two gear sourcebooks, a mini-adventures sourcebooks, two new Player's Handbooks, and class expansions for every class released up to that point! Not counting the stuff in Dragon & Dungeon Magazine - I know some Ravenloft purists will sneer down their noses at it, but at least we got new domains of dread instead of yet another remake of the original Ravenloft adventure module!

It's not that Faerun is a bad setting, because, really, it's not. The Forgotten Realms is the most popular and iconic established D&D setting for a reason, and it's a definitive example of the D&D style of high fantasy.

But, come on, seriously, give us a break! We're sick of it! Steak isn't a bad thing, but eating it for breakfast, lunch and dinner, seven days a week, for three years is a little too much!

That's why people are bashing the Forgotten Realms: because it's overplayed at this point. We want something new. We want a Sigil Adventurer's Guide, or a Manual of the Planes at least, for more cosmological gameplay options! We want a Khorvaire Player's Guide, so we can go back to Eberron instead of the Sword Coast! We want a Starfarer's Manual, to bring Spelljammer back to life!

We're tired of the same old dungeoning crawling stories. They're the staple of D&D, but they're well and truly played out at this point. Until Faerun gets a rest, people aren't going to stop kicking it in the ribs.

It's almost like Wizards forgot they had other settings.

[Scots Dragon]

It's almost like Wizards forgot they had other settings.

Considering that even back during the D&D 3E era they farmed out Dragonlance and Ravenloft to other companies, treated Greyhawk as something to just steal the pantheon from and that's basically it, and basically neglected Planescape, Spelljammer, Birthright, Mystara and Dark Sun entirely...

This is not exactly a new problem.

[Ralanr]

Considering that even back during the D&D 3E era they farmed out Dragonlance and Ravenloft to other companies, treated Greyhawk as something to just steal the pantheon from and that's basically it, and basically neglected Planescape, Spelljammer, Birthright, Mystara and Dark Sun entirely...

This is not exactly a new problem.

...
They have so much. So much to work with. I don't even know what birthright is!

I may never see Eberron.

[Anonymouswizard]

...
They have so much. So much to work with. I don't even know what birthright is!

I may never see Eberron.

Brightright is at first glance a pretty standard fantasy. Elves, dwarves, and all that jazz.

Some time ago (I like to think about 1000 years, the book doesn't say) the old gods, who used to directly interfere with the world, got into a big war with the evil god of evil. This caused all the gods to die, and their godly essence went into the people gathered there (because the gods brought armies along, it makes sense they way they phrase it). The nearest eight became the new gods, while those further away got less power. Those who got less power either became monsters (who sometimes create weaker versions of themselves), especially if their power came from the evil god, or just gained some special abilities. Those who didn't become monsters became known as 'blooded', and being blooded is something that can be passed onto your children.

Then the blooded people, who bonded with the land they ruled, began fighting over who ruled the world. There was a great big empire, which ended 500 years ago, and now there's about five different kingdoms/regions each with many subregions generally ruled over by blooded kings.

There's some interesting stuff that isn't generally mentioned, such as it restricting the full mage class from unblooded humans (although the magician class is interesting, it's a double specialist that swears off all spells above 2rd level bar illusion and divination). Characters can be blooded or unblooded as the player chooses.

[SharkForce]

eh, hate to go all "hipster" on you, but i don't hate FR because we've gotten nothing but for the past 3 years. i don't think i've hated it since before it was popular to hate it or anything like that (i'm sure plenty of people hated it before me), but i've definitely been uninterested for a lot longer than 3 years. for example, i remember not really caring personally about the fact that 4th edition FR basically destroyed the setting, but thinking that wow, would i ever be angry if WotC cared enough to ruin any of the settings that i loved. my distaste for it extends at least as far back as the 3.x years. i wasn't super familiar with it in 2nd AD&D (my group didn't play in them), but i do remember consistently noticing that it seemed like the writers just didn't seem to be very good at balancing the game since most of the more broken stuff i knew of came from the forgotten realms.

and again, the prolific ridiculously high level NPCs. i cannot stress this enough. not just that elminster and pals are there, but like i said, every temple seems to have a powerful priest who can cast anything you might need as well as a few lesser priests, every mage guild has dozens of ridiculously powerful NPCs, every magic shop is run by a retired high level adventurer and has some of the most powerful weapons imaginable in stock and doesn't need to worry about robberies because even though the thieve's guilds are all full of high-level thieves, the town guard has a bunch of high level characters too and besides nobody wants to mess with whoever is making all these near-artifact magic items for sale, which you gotta figure is a concern when the magic shop seems to have no problem getting epic-tier loot... they must have some pretty close ties to the guy making all those items. besides, the thieve's guild must be shopping there anyways, because they all have 2-5 magic items if they're anyone of even the remotest significance in the guild. as will anyone else of even the tiniest significance. does the person have a name? well, they must be a high-level character with PC-class levels and a bunch of magic items, don't mess with them.

[Scots Dragon]

...
They have so much. So much to work with. I don't even know what birthright is!

I may never see Eberron.

Well to be fair, Eberron's the baby of the group and wasn't even introduced until the D&D 3.5E era.

In any case, here's a wee run down of the settings for the unfamiliar, since I'm assuming at least a few of the people in here might well be new to the whole D&D thing and wondering what some of us grognards are even talking about (not including some of the more obscure things that are over-complicated as to how they even tie in, like Blackmoor);

Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance are the big three of the old days, all introduced with campaign setting books and boxed sets during the AD&D 1E years. They're close to varying types of classical fantasy, with Greyhawk having more of a Howard, Vance, and Moorcock-inspired sword and sorcery flair, Dragonlance being far more in bed with Tolkien-inspired epic quests to save the world, and the Forgotten Realms arguably being somewhere directly between the two. Hence its popularity.

As a sidenote to this you have Mystara. This is the scarcely-mentioned illegitimate child of Dungeons & Dragons, despite the fact that it's absurdly popular in certain circles. It was the assumed default setting of the old Basic Dungeons & Dragons material. It was pretty cool, with a variety of interesting nations and odd connections to the real world, including the fact that its continental layout was similar to how our own world looked around 150 million years into the past.

You also had Ravenloft in this time, but it was an isolated adventure module back then and not a fully-fledged setting as of yet. When it did get its own setting, it became a weird extradimensional plane of gothic horror, where divine magic could at any moment fail and where the place was ruled by cruel, capricious dark lords who were if anything prisoners of this place and the torments it could inflict upon them.

Moving on with more AD&D 2E stuff, Birthright was a fairly standard fantasy setting, but with the twist that it focused around the heroes being rulers of various domains by virtue of divine bloodlines, with something of a Fisher King set-up for the most part. Not really my bag, personally,

Dark Sun was in effect a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting, and owed a lot to the ideas behind stuff like Dying Earth and similar, where defiling magic had stripped the world bare of all plant and nearly all animal life, and the scorching heat of an over-powerful sun had dried up most of the water. It's best described as Tomb of Horrors, the campaign setting, because basic survival for more than a few minutes is bloody well difficult and characters start with hugely augmented ability scores and stats, as well as getting to start at 3rd level simply to have a chance to survive anything at all.

Planescape and Spelljammer could on some level be called meta-settings. They were weird and fantastical ways for settings like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms to interact with each-other, and in the process characters could run into weird stuff between the settings. With Planescape these were various extradimensional locations like the Astral Plane, and various incarnations of heaven and hell taken directly from a myriad of mythological interpretations. Central to this was the City of Sigil. For Spelljammer, this was magical spaceships travelling the void, with the solar systems of various settings contained within crystal spheres where more old-fashioned folkloric and mythological notions of how space and the planets worked were in fact literally true. For instance Greyhawk's crystal sphere has a geocentric arrangement.

There was also Council of Wyrms, where you could play a dragon. I kinda want to see this one updated first.

In the D&D 3E years, we had two major campaign settings introduced. The first was a tie-in to the Legend of the Five Rings game called Rokugan, and the second was of course the now very famous Eberron. I'm not a huge fan of Eberron personally; I find the fact that there are no real canonical novels or comics attached to it to be somewhat offputtish, since honestly one of them ain draws of a campaign setting for me has always been the way characters interact with the world at large, specifically because I got into this stuff by way of novels and video games to begin with. I was playing Baldur's Gate and reading some of the novels years before I even knew what polyhedral dice were.

Eberron by definition literally cannot have this, so I find it really, really hard to get invested.

[Ralanr]

I personally like Eberron because of it. It's like a toy box that you can put away when done. Then take out for a whole new adventure.


Edit: also cause Dungeonpunk.

[Scots Dragon]

I personally like Eberron because of it. It's like a toy box that you can put away when done. Then take out for a whole new adventure.


Edit: also cause Dungeonpunk.

Honestly while I'm really, really tired of that word, I don't even think it fits for Eberron. For me the term 'punk' describes that there are probably actual literal punk attitudes with regards to the actual setting itself, and while Eberron sometimes fails to have a tone, the tone it does definitely have isn't punk. It's pulp. Eberron is fundamentally a two-fisted adventure setting along the lines of 1930s pulp adventure stories. It's got a lot in common with Indiana Jones for instance. When it does go darker, it often goes for a more hard-boiled film noir style.

I thus posit that Eberron isn't dungeonpunk at all. It's dungeonpulp, much as genres like steamgoth and cybergoth have started to turn up.

[Ralanr]

Honestly while I'm really, really tired of that word, I don't even think it fits for Eberron. For me the term 'punk' describes that there are probably actual literal punk attitudes with regards to the actual setting itself, and while Eberron sometimes fails to have a tone, the tone it does definitely have isn't punk. It's pulp. Eberron is fundamentally a two-fisted adventure setting along the lines of 1930s pulp adventure stories. It's got a lot in common with Indiana Jones for instance. When it does go darker, it often goes for a more hard-boiled film noir style.

I thus posit that Eberron isn't dungeonpunk at all. It's dungeonpulp, much as genres like steamgoth and cybergoth have started to turn up.

Pulp probably fits it better. I tend to just use punk because that's how I've seen it described.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly while I'm really, really tired of that word, I don't even think it fits for Eberron. For me the term 'punk' describes that there are probably actual literal punk attitudes with regards to the actual setting itself, and while Eberron sometimes fails to have a tone, the tone it does definitely have isn't punk. It's pulp. Eberron is fundamentally a two-fisted adventure setting along the lines of 1930s pulp adventure stories. It's got a lot in common with Indiana Jones for instance. When it does go darker, it often goes for a more hard-boiled film noir style.

I thus posit that Eberron isn't dungeonpunk at all. It's dungeonpulp, much as genres like steamgoth and cybergoth have started to turn up.

Heck, I tend to use the terms 'steampulp' and 'cyberpulp' these days.

[VoxRationis]

I myself dislike Eberron far more than the Forgotten Realms (though perhaps that's because I haven't much exposure to sue-ishness from NPCs there, having been exposed only to one FR novel), for two overarching reasons:
1) It's dedicated to the parts of 3rd edition I like the least. Players are more important than the NPCs by virtue of being players, with allied NPCs deliberately neutered. Magical items are common and part of the general consumer culture. Clerical alignment isn't an issue, which isn't so much of a problem in and of itself, but leads to everyone in the 3.5 forum expecting it as general practice and whining at the very suggestion of having a character of any of the conduit classes (cleric, druid, warlock, whatever) lose power for doing something their patron doesn't like.
2) It seems to have been made with the sort of thinking that I thought was cool when I was 12. They go to great effort to make magical analogues of 20th-century technology, rather than just, you know, have magic. It makes little sense for a magic system to bend over backwards to emulate technological concepts that don't exist in-universe. Monster races have relaxed alignment restrictions, so the DM can stick in NPCs of whatever monster they think is cool and do "gotcha" moments when the players interpret it as an enemy. Overarching cultural norms and societal institutions more resemble the modern day than ancient periods, which since I can't actually see the characters involved, makes me feel like I'm not actually in a fantasy setting. (That particular issue infected the rest of 3.5 as things went on, resulting in books like Cityscape and Complete Mage being filled with quotes from low-level NPCs that sound like gas station attendants, rather than residents of pre-modern cities.)

Not that FR doesn't have any issues.