Relationship Woes and Advice XXVIII: Happy and Perfect!

[georgie_leech]

Count me in as a willing but poor subject. As in, my makeover budget is a shoestring, and said shoestring was too expensive so I'm making due with the braided hair I've pulled out during finals

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, judging by your image in your blog, you're far from repulsive, and may even be considered "cute" by those who are looking for a young man (which I'm not. I'm not looking for anyone besides a bartender, a book seller, and a sandwich maker).

Man, I need to start posting on that blog again. Sorted out updating the picture with a higher resolution (and more recent) one though.

Unfortunately I can't find you any of those, but I'll keep an eye out for you.

But unless you're George Clooney, that won't last, and in time you will turn into a Goblin like most of us.

Ha!

I suppose advice is expected.

Fine.

Try to look like Benedict Cumberbatch in Sherlock (coat, scarf, and hair, but no hat), and underneath wear dark trousers, a blood red or burgundy collared button up shirt (like the one worn by David Mitchell in his Soapbox series, maybe with a dark waist coat, and dark leather ankle boats, or "Oxfords"

Wear sunglasses and look brooding or pre-occupied, but then take them off and give a bright smile when you pretend to just notice someone whom you want to be friendly to you.

Also, if you're very tall, being overweight is probably okay, but muscle definition is better.

If your short, or of medium height, muscle definition is still good, but being slender (ideally still with definition) is more important.

Sadly, especially for long term relationships, women value wit and intelligence more than looks (so unfair to we who are dull and stupid!), fortunately men value shape and a young face more, so if that's your inclination you may be in luck, until age turns you into a Goblin or Troll.

As I recall, me and my wife bonded over our shared tastes (we both dislike the same things), and we were both "cute" (she still is, I'm a misshapen husk).

Good luck.

Unfortunately I am (slightly) short, so I'm in a constant cycle of trying to lose weight but feeling comfortable where I am. But you've managed to get as to why this French girl confuses me (on the plus side I'm into both men and women, so if this fails I still have a chance).

I had you confused with the Scottish sailor/mechanic at first, but now I recall you're the guy who started a LDR with a girl from Northern France. How's it going BTW? :)

A mixture of arguing over whether it counts as a LDR, who's the one who's out of the other's league, trying to organise her coming here in December (I'd be going over there sooner but I'm on benefits that make it hard for me to legally leave the country [jobseekers]), and occasionally pretending not to understand subtext.

So if you ignore the fact she's already naming our kids and deciding what colours their rooms are (I told her it's got to be red, green, and blue, because I'm not messing around with secondary colours) it seems to be going well.

That picture is extremely low res, and without any facial features visible..... you look like a pretty cute girl actually :P super nice slightly curly brown-with-a-hint-of-red long hair that many women would envy, and the way your shirt happens to fold/bulge at your chest kinda makes it look like you have boobs.

The good news is, you've got regular features, from what I can tell. Gender-neutral faces aren't unattractive at all; any extreme features usually tend to be negatives from an aesthetic POV. (Some studies merged large numbers of faces to combine them into a "perfectly average human face" and found out the results of such blends are inevitably considered good-looking.)

There's a higher resolution photo there know (which actually shows the amblyopia if you, uh, squint). But thanks for the advice, hopefully I'll lose enough weight to lose the shirt bulge.

But I've got no problems with looking like a cute girl, it's a good look. Maybe I'll tell this French girl that she has the taste of a lesbian.

[Sholos]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I actually got new glasses recently, so I'm gonns make some other changes and post another picture afterwards.

[ve4grm]

Our running total of willing victims is now up to three ;) grooming advice is actually a pretty natural spinoff of this thread, and it's also totally aligned with the intent/spirit of the thread IMO.

Okay, fine!

I'll go make a thread.

EDIT: Done!

[Form]

Sadly, especially for long term relationships, women value wit and intelligence more than looks (so unfair to we who are dull and stupid!)

As a minor sidenote, I don't think women value these things as much as we'd like to believe. It's not that those don't matter at all, but in my observation and my experience women often value length and assertiveness in men far more than wit or intelligence.

[Anonymouswizard]

As a minor sidenote, I don't think women value these things as much as we'd like to believe. It's not that those don't matter at all, but in my observation and my experience women often value length and assertiveness in men far more than wit or intelligence.

Surely it depends on the woman (also, length?). If women all cared about assertiveness I'd never have attracted any of them

[Glass Mouse]

Surely it depends on the woman (also, length?). If women all cared about assertiveness I'd never have attracted any of them

This.

(1) It is completely bonkers to think you can boil down 50% of the human population's attraction patterns into a few easily-digestable truths, disregarding subcultures, individual preferences, trends, traumas, and everything else that makes humankind messy.

(2) Whatever you think you know is shaped SO much by your individual experiences. In my experience, guys love a sharp wit and a monologue about the history of myths in medieval Europe, but I'm reeeeeeasonably sure that isn't universal. Likewise, if you're a tall man you will attract women who like tall men. If you hang around a lot of charming people, you will see many people respond to charm. And so forth.

(2) Who cares what some abstract, definitely-not-as-large-as-you-think majority are attracted to? I'm sure there are more men who would like their girlfriend to spend time in the gym instead of over a book, but playing the odds on that one would only make me miserable. Appealing to the majority is how you get Die Hard 4.

Sorry for the rant-like quality of this. I guess what I'm trying to say is, in Serpentine's immortal words:

Everyone is someone's fetish!

[Anonymouswizard]

This.

(1) It is completely bonkers to think you can boil down 50% of the human population's attraction patterns into a few easily-digestable truths, disregarding subcultures, individual preferences, trends, traumas, and everything else that makes humankind messy.

(2) Whatever you think you know is shaped SO much by your individual experiences. In my experience, guys love a sharp wit and a monologue about the history of myths in medieval Europe, but I'm reeeeeeasonably sure that isn't universal. Likewise, if you're a tall man you will attract women who like tall men. If you hang around a lot of charming people, you will see many people respond to charm. And so forth.

(2) Who cares what some abstract, definitely-not-as-large-as-you-think majority are attracted to? I'm sure there are more men who would like their girlfriend to spend time in the gym instead of over a book, but playing the odds on that one would only make me miserable. Appealing to the majority is how you get Die Hard 4.

Sorry for the rant-like quality of this. I guess what I'm trying to say is, in Serpentine's immortal words:

Everyone is someone's fetish!

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say. While there are trends to what people like people vary enough that there's really little way to know what somebody likes without asking them. (Plus what people like changes over time, sometimes drastically often less so.)

If a woman came on here and asked how could they attract more men I could only answer as to how to attract more men like me, the same if a man asked. There's no way to know what somebody likes without asking them, so if you want to know what somebody likes ask them. But us making sweeping statements is useless.

I mean I could say that men like androgynous nerdy women of a different ethnicity to them who tend to be short with small breasts, but the likelyhood is if you asked any other male poster and at least some of the female ones on this forum they'd give you a different description.

[Form]

Surely it depends on the woman (also, length?).

In general, yes, length as well. I distinctly recall reading articles and stories to that effect. For example, there are apparently quite a few Tinder profiles of women with specific height requirements for men. Though, admittedly, this example specifically is second hand knowledge as I don't have any Tinder experience myself. And your experience could very well be vastly different.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say. While there are trends to what people like people vary enough that there's really little way to know what somebody likes without asking them. (Plus what people like changes over time, sometimes drastically often less so.)

If a woman came on here and asked how could they attract more men I could only answer as to how to attract more men like me, the same if a man asked. There's no way to know what somebody likes without asking them, so if you want to know what somebody likes ask them. But us making sweeping statements is useless.

I did not mean to say that all women are like so and so and I probably should have been clearer on that. I was referring to commonly occurring preferences and trends and assuming we were discussing this in the context of contemporary western dating culture and the dominant attitudes in dating within that culture. Speaking in general and within that context I have noticed there is definitely a general preference by women for assertiveness in men. That goes both ways of course, so if a woman were to ask for advice on how to be more attractive in general we would refer to common preferences that men have.

I don't really see how what I said is that much different from when you asserted that women value wits and intelligence more than looks and that men tend to value shapes and young faces more. Was that not also a sweeping statement? Or were you just talking about general trends, just as I am?

I mean I could say that men like androgynous nerdy women of a different ethnicity to them who tend to be short with small breasts, but the likelyhood is if you asked any other male poster and at least some of the female ones on this forum they'd give you a different description.

We can't really say of anything of value about any individual random man's or woman's specific preferences, but we can talk about more generic behaviors, attitudes and preferences in dating that many (or even most) men and women have in common. We can talk about trends, just as you said. If that were not the case, then a thread like this would be entirely pointless as we could give no advice and make no observations that apply more generally.

[LeSwordfish]

In general, yes, length as well. I distinctly recall reading articles and stories to that effect. For example, there are apparently quite a few Tinder profiles of women with specific height requirements for men. Though, admittedly, this example specifically is second hand knowledge as I don't have any Tinder experience myself. And your experience could very well be vastly different.

... oh height.

[Tvtyrant]

... oh height.

Yeah, length usually means something else lol.

[FinnLassie]

Registered to OKCupid for the ****s and giggles, and... dear GOD the amount of people that don't read my profile and still try to message me, it's honestly super draining. I've gotten about 40-50 messages within the past week, initiated one conversation and responded to three. There's also people that have read my profile, but are extremely snarky and somewhat hostile regarding something about me and sure do let me know how they feel. Why on earth message me if you so eagerly disagree with me, what on earth do these guys think when they send these sorts of messages? They're even worse than the influx of "hi hello" messages that I just automatically delete.

I think I'm gonna delete my account again. All this hassle is so worthless in relation to my time and energy.

[Glass Mouse]

Yeah, length usually means something else lol.

Hey, people are manifold! Some people are into that

[Tvtyrant]

Hey, people are manifold! Some people are into that

The problem is that height/length obsession in men is extremely damaging to self-worth. Like how women's fashion is more about inter-women relationships then men to womens, the idea that women are obsessed with mens.... Size, seems to be perpetuated largely by men.

I am not saying that women don't care about it, just like men do care about how women dress, but not nearly to the degree that same-sex observers do.

[Anonymouswizard]

The problem is that height/length obsession in men is extremely damaging to self-worth. Like how women's fashion is more about inter-women relationships then men to womens, the idea that women are obsessed with mens.... Size, seems to be perpetuated largely by men.

I am not saying that women don't care about it, just like men do care about how women dress, but not nearly to the degree that same-sex observers do.

Isn't there some research somewhere that suggests that the average preferred size for women (because of course there's variation, we're talking about humans) is smaller than most men assume?

But yeah, like how in several aspects make gym culture is more about showing off to men than women.

[dehro]

The whole height thing for men is a bit of a double standard issue..
A woman is allowed to ask a guy how tall he is, but if a guy asks a woman how much she weighs all hell breaks loose.
Yes, I realise that being a shortarse may colour my perception on this one, but it is a thing that I've encountered occasionally

[FinnLassie]

The whole height thing for men is a bit of a double standard issue..
A woman is allowed to ask a guy how tall he is, but if a guy asks a woman how much she weighs all hell breaks loose.
Yes, I realise that being a shortarse may colour my perception on this one, but it is a thing that I've encountered occasionally

Asking weight and height are two completely different things. I don't think they can be put into comparison like this...

[Glass Mouse]

Isn't there some research somewhere that suggests that the average preferred size for women (because of course there's variation, we're talking about humans) is smaller than most men assume?

Yeah, I remember reading that. It's kinda like how the average (and the preferred-by-some-majority-of-women) length of an encounter is way shorter than most men assume.

I don't know if most men know this, but when they're too big, it kinda... hurts.

Asking weight and height are two completely different things. I don't think they can be put into comparison like this...

Yeah, it isn't exactly polite to ask a man about his weight either, and few people will frown upon a woman being asked her height.

I absolutely trust that it sucks for smaller men (and I am sad to hear there's a reason all the men on tinder list their height... I thought it was mostly just another masculinity thing). But there's no need to bring false equivalences into it.

[LeSwordfish]

There are many treasured prejudices that men hold just as dearly as those women hold their height preferences: I've not looked in detail at the men of tinder but i'm sure more than a few of them state it upfront.

[dehro]

Yeah, I remember reading that. It's kinda like how the average (and the preferred-by-some-majority-of-women) length of an encounter is way shorter than most men assume.

I don't know if most men know this, but when they're too big, it kinda... hurts.

My precious mini-me has been part of many an encounter, but it has never been called one

Yeah, it isn't exactly polite to ask a man about his weight either, and few people will frown upon a woman being asked her height.

I absolutely trust that it sucks for smaller men (and I am sad to hear there's a reason all the men on tinder list their height... I thought it was mostly just another masculinity thing). But there's no need to bring false equivalences into it.

it is one, but up to a point...
if you read female profiles, you'll find that several list "at least x tall" as a requirement.. and often they spell it out as a need to feel they can look up to him, or because they are tall and find it awkward to look down , or because they want to be able to wear y-inch heels and still look good next to the partner.
Deep down it's really a matter of biology.. in many species, looking for the "stronger/more athletic/better built" partner is a way to ensure protection and healthier offspring.
I've actually had online conversations with people where I would come right out and say "well.. we have all these and these things in common, but I'm short, so shall I move on?" (usually expressed in a playful manner, because, believe it or not, I actually am not hung up on this thing and I was always able to take an online rejection in its stride and move on cheerfully, which I believe is why I didn't get as many as I could have) only for several of them to shut me down explicitly stating that as a reason.
Sure, it may just have been a handy excuse to not "hurt my feelings" or tell it like it is because they were simply not into me for other reasons.. but it often goes a bit further than that. Several women who I have dated or just had a casual arrangements with also confirmed that yes, often, they would discard people for measuring up.. and that plenty of their female friends actually would be quite firm and blunt about it. "I could never date/consider a shorter man".
Obviously, scoring a few dates with women who do have that initial stance does wonders for one's self esteem, because you do feel a bit like your other qualities have weighted more on the scales than something you have no control over.
Conversely, I had a woman I was seeing who was 6 ft tall (a head taller than me), and had NO reservations of the sort, tell me that there were many men (other than me) that felt they couldn't approach here because they felt inadequate because they "couldn't" date a woman taller than them.
She told me it was a real problem for her and other women like her because either they wouldn't approach her at all or she would feel like she missed out after striking up a conversation and finding that it was an issue of intimidation for them.
I am perfectly aware that we all have our preferences when it comes to shtupping someone for a while, or even a one time only. We are all entitled to it. In a prospective partner however, I personally would prefer other traits to guide my decision, and for that to be the case for the other person too.. (luckily it is, because I'm neither lean nor do I have dimples, both traits my SO really likes in a guy).
Now.. the point here is that there's little a guy can do to change that height number, whereas sometimes a woman or a man can be brought to task because yes, they may be genetically predisposed to being on the chubby end of the scale, but they are not helping it by actually not even trying or by cultivating lifestyle/dietary choices that will not allow them to bring down their weight to a healthy level... or at least one where they themselves don't have image issues with it. (so in this sense, you're right, it's not a proper comparison).
I don't assume to speak for an entire category or to make broad generalisations, but there are plenty of women who will take exception to being asked their weight. Usually this is the case for women who are on the heavier side and/or who have body image issues.
No, I'm not in the habit of asking that to anyone, because I really couldn't care less.. but it has come up in conversations where I called out someone for being shallow and asked it to prove my point.
Sometimes there really is nothing you can do because no matter the diet or physical activity you will not shed those kgs... and to many an individual, me included, there is no problem in that. Case in point, my partner explicitly doesn't want to tell me how much she weighs.. and I am not even asking her because I really don't care. The only times it becomes an issue is when I'm worried for her health because she tells me she has back pain or pain in her knees because of the extra weight she carries around... or when she expresses dissatisfaction and tells me she feels ugly, which to me she is not. Even then, I still don't want to know her weight.. all I care about is for her to be happy with herself and for her to do something about it if she's not.

However, to go back on track, ask a woman who is explicit about her height requirements to the point where she'll shut you down because of it, how much they weigh as a retort, and they very often will go berserk and start with "how dare you ask a woman her weight?" all the way up to launching a rant about fat-shaming.
It is not.. it's simply pointing out how ascribing the worth of an individual as a potential long term partner to a numerical value over which they may have zero control, is wrong either way, whether it's fat or height... or indeed length.
I have no sympathy at all for those people (of any sex) out there who will say "oh, I could never date a fatty" or something to that effect.
Fat shaming IS a thing and I think they are shallow, small and moronic. Likewise however, I have little patience for a woman (or guy, but it's predominantly a female thing) who stands by the "you have to be this tall to date me" rule and is unwilling to see beyond that to actually look at the individual...only for then to complain that their love-life is lacking because they can't find the right guy.
Girl, if maybe you weren't obsessing over looking good on facebook in your high heels, you'd actually see that there are plenty of guys worth a shot which you've neglected to even consider.
So no, in my mind it is not so different at all. Then again, when people insist on this stance, I'm happy to leave them alone because it does inform me about their character and values.

[Form]

There are many treasured prejudices that men hold just as dearly as those women hold their height preferences: I've not looked in detail at the men of tinder but i'm sure more than a few of them state it upfront.

Oh absolutely! And there is a lot of criticism, often completely valid and justified, that tends to be levied against men and attitudes, behaviors and preferences* that are commonly held by them. I just think that the debate about dating culture would benefit from being more symmetric, i.e. that we are also willing to honestly examine women's attitudes/behaviors/preferences* and that we are willing to critisize those as well when appropriate.

Minor correction/side note: I... just noticed I appear to have mixed up 2D8HP and AnonymousWizard in my previous post in one instance. I incorrectly attributed an assertion about men's and women's preferences to the latter, rather than the former. Whoops, my bad.

*within the context of contemporary western dating culture and referring to general trends within that culture. That is an assumption that can pretty much always be made when I talk about these things.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, I remember reading that. It's kinda like how the average (and the preferred-by-some-majority-of-women) length of an encounter is way shorter than most men assume.

I can't say I have any experience with encounters, I'm kind of on my first relationship and my partner is too religious (to the point of wanting to stay in a seperate house to me so she's not tempted).

I don't know if most men know this, but when they're too big, it kinda... hurts.

Heard that before, also heard a woman complain about how larger men seem to forget there's more technique than ramming.

No personal experience on this front, I've not done it with men as well as women, but I suspect it's true for us guys as well.

Yeah, it isn't exactly polite to ask a man about his weight either, and few people will frown upon a woman being asked her height.

I absolutely trust that it sucks for smaller men (and I am sad to hear there's a reason all the men on tinder list their height... I thought it was mostly just another masculinity thing). But there's no need to bring false equivalences into it.

Eh, honestly I think most of us slightly short men (I'm about 5'7'' to 5'8'' depending on the day) end up not caring about it. Women who want a man taller than us just won't go for us, and there's plenty of women who like our height, and honestly I've yet to meet a truly short man not completely comfortable with their height. I'm sure there's people who's life sucks because of it, but my advice there is to remember that there's a lot of women who couldn't give an excrement and to not give up hope.

[akma]

about men's height...
Deep down it's really a matter of biology.. in many species, looking for the "stronger/more athletic/better built" partner is a way to ensure protection and healthier offspring.

It seems to be very socially integrated, not just biology (unless you explain the social context as biology). There are beliefs about grading people "objective worth as a partner", and one of the variables for men is their height. A woman might not physically feel a preference for taller men, but would still like one because she and the people around her would consider such a man to be of greater value. If you took away the social context from this issue, I guess that still a big percentage of women would prefer a taller man, but most won't care that much. I don't know how international this phenomenon is, and to be honest, I'm not even sure how much of an effect it has in my country.

However, to go back on track, ask a woman who is explicit about her height requirements to the point where she'll shut you down because of it, how much they weigh as a retort, and they very often will go berserk and start with "how dare you ask a woman her weight?" all the way up to launching a rant about fat-shaming.

Well, when you ask someone about it at that timing, it raises a question most people are uncomfortable with, it might be viewed as implicitly hinting that the receiever of the question is fat, it hints that you consider the woman who asked a hypocrite, and worst of all, it might make her feel that she is a hypocrite because of that. That's a lot of reasons to be angry and start a rant.

[dehro]

It's the only timing that makes sense.
I don't much care about my height, or lack thereoff, except when I have to get on a chair to get the stuff in the top of the cabinet. Calling out a double standard right then when it's applied makes sense, keeping it for another time (or even remembering to do so) smacks of resentment, chip on one's shoulder and indeed self confidence issues.
Also, in my, admittedly very personal experience, there are plenty of women who, when challenged thusly, will admit that it's not exactly a fair deal.. some of them even accept the opening for a proper chat despite their initial stance (and the physical measurements that remain unchanged). Those are, in my eyes, interesting women (no, not because they're saying I'm right, but because they are willing to challenge their ideas and preconceptions and give a bloke a chance even when he's not exactly what they were looking for).
The women who do get all huffy about my reaction to their height limit, I tend to lose interest in them pretty quickly, and it's usually mutual.. so when and if they get a rant going, it washes right over me and we both move on, no harm done.
Well.. that would be the scenario if I was still on the market.

[Chen]

Asking weight and height are two completely different things. I don't think they can be put into comparison like this...

Why exactly? Both are physical characteristics that, if in person, you can generally estimate. Both may also be go/no-go factors in whether you want to date someone. The fat stigma is perhaps worse overall than the short one, though for men both are a problem. Being short is less of an issue for women, from a stigma point of view anyways.

[FinnLassie]

Why exactly? Both are physical characteristics that, if in person, you can generally estimate. Both may also be go/no-go factors in whether you want to date someone. The fat stigma is perhaps worse overall than the short one, though for men both are a problem. Being short is less of an issue for women, from a stigma point of view anyways.

One's weight doesn't tell all, and many do seem to judge a person way too much based on just their weight. There's multiple bodyshapes in which fat distributes in all different manners. People are far more judgemental over people's weight than height in the end and it's a matter that applies to both men and women.

Seeing someone's body shape should be enough. If the person likes it, does the number of kilos matter?

[Chen]

Seeing someone's body shape should be enough. If the person likes it, does the number of kilos matter?

Shouldn't height fall into pretty much exactly that same box?

[Anonymouswizard]

Why exactly? Both are physical characteristics that, if in person, you can generally estimate. Both may also be go/no-go factors in whether you want to date someone. The fat stigma is perhaps worse overall than the short one, though for men both are a problem. Being short is less of an issue for women, from a stigma point of view anyways.

Weight is weird and hard to tell, especially proportionately, and perceptions of weight vary significantly based on the observers age.

I'm morbidly obese, I have no problem admitting that (having actually looked at my BMI I suspect I'm in the 'why aren't you dead yet' category), and yet to people my age and social circle I'm barely large enough to be considered fat, to the point I've been told several times that I'm not that overweight (as an aside, don't do that if someone is worringly overweight, it's a massive enabler). But among people a decade or two older I'm hideously out of weight.

So the fat stigma is getting better, but honestly? As a fat person I can understand why it might not need to go completely. Certainly we should teach people to be happy in their body, but also to be healthy so they can live a long life.

On that note, I need to find out if there's any good gyms around here. My 'partner' doesn't care about my weight (her last boyfriend was probably larger than I am), but I'd like to have more stamina.

[lio45]

Shouldn't height fall into pretty much exactly that same box?

As dehro points out, one could even make an argument that weight should be in a "less" delicate category than things like height and ethnicity which you just can't change, no matter how much effort you're willing to put into it.

[lio45]

Weight is weird and hard to tell, especially proportionately, and perceptions of weight vary significantly based on the observers age.

I'm morbidly obese, I have no problem admitting that (having actually looked at my BMI I suspect I'm in the 'why aren't you dead yet' category), and yet to people my age and social circle I'm barely large enough to be considered fat, to the point I've been told several times that I'm not that overweight (as an aside, don't do that if someone is worringly overweight, it's a massive enabler). But among people a decade or two older I'm hideously out of weight.

So the fat stigma is getting better, but honestly? As a fat person I can understand why it might not need to go completely. Certainly we should teach people to be happy in their body, but also to be healthy so they can live a long life.

On that note, I need to find out if there's any good gyms around here. My 'partner' doesn't care about my weight (her last boyfriend was probably larger than I am), but I'd like to have more stamina.

Well, yeah, obviously if everyone in a given society is morbidly obese nowadays then a morbidly obese person is not overweight anymore but rather perfectly normal (in spite of still being morbidly obese by physiological standards).

The goal isn't really to be "normal" but rather to be healthy. I think you've got a very positive attitude though :) I wouldn't start with gyms if I were you (needlessly costs money), I'd simply go for walks and try to improve my diet.