Relationship Woes and Advice XXVIII: Happy and Perfect!

[2D8HP]

...is hardly ever used like "hang out."

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Could be a generational instead of regional difference.

Anyway, the meaning of the advice is, "Be clear your seeking romance".

[S@tanicoaldo]

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Could be a generational instead of regional difference.

Anyway, the meaning of the advice is, "Be clear your seeking romance".

But try not to sound disappeared or too excited.

Just go like hey long time no see, how are you doing? We should catch up stuff like that. Don't go all

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

[2D8HP]

...Don't go all

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

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Um... yeah that would be far too clear (and frightening). Maybre in another 30 years.

But it would be interesting to get a report on it.

[FinnLassie]

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

This is honestly the perfect way to put out the nightmare scenario. Because it is what it is. The nightmare scenario. It's like the person is emerging from the friendzone to their victory. Oh God. Cringey memories coming right back up. I know what you wrote is an exaggeration, but it is just so close to my own (and some friends') very real experiences.


And yeah, I agree with others - suggest catching up on a date, maybe after a message or two. Start the convo with something casual, like what she's been up to in the past few days (asking what she's been doing since the grad programme would be a bit too much right off the bat). You already know each other, so it's useless to start a conversation with something from her profile (though it is ofc good to read it through for future reference).

[Tvtyrant]

But try not to sound disappeared or too excited.

Just go like hey long time no see, how are you doing? We should catch up stuff like that. Don't go all

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

O.o Why would anyone say that? There are so many creepy things involved with that statement it makes the head boggle.

[FinnLassie]

O.o Why would anyone say that? There are so many creepy things involved with that statement it makes the head boggle.

Well, in one of my cases, it was a very classic scenario where he, a white knight/"friendzoned" person saw that ah, now that I have recovered from my break up, it was his job to present himself very clearly. It also managed to be the final nail in the coffin that determined that yes, he is indeed creepy and I need to remove them from my life.

[Anonymouswizard]

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Wow, you were far more generous than I was.

There were over 3,000 students at my High School, and while I definitely had feelings of inferiority, I did not often feel my fellow High School students were superior, generally I felt my fellow flatlanders were "illiterate thugs" and the hills kids were "spoiled overpriviidged snots", more than 30 years later I'm still bitter about the physical violence from some of my fellow teenagers, and the social violence of being accused of "not really living here" because I knew nothing of a ski shop that the hills kids frequented (even though I dropped/tested out early I was an "honor student' at first and was moved from the "track" that most of my fellow flatlanders were in to the "track" that most of the richer kids were in), my fellow students in the "advanced" track were clear to me that I "didn't belong", and was "not one of us".

My High School was definitely divided on class and racial lines between the "flats" where I lived (where not a month would go by without my hearing gunshots), and the "Hills" (where you didn't)..

I hated the place, and felt that whoever kept spray painting "Teen Prison" on the wall near the entrance of the main building was right.

The teachers indifference to my being "jumped" and punched unconscious taught me the most important lessons of my time there, which was "Get away from this place".

My "exposure" to academics was of little use to me since it was never going to be fated for college, and I could have learned more with free time at the library anyway.

It would have been better for me have not gone at all.

Yeah, my time at secondary school was far better than yours, as it was in rural England (which meant it was also monochrome, but that's another story). That meant that as most of the students came from various villages and returned to those villages as soon as school was over there was little stigma to not knowing the area, and almost everybody was middle class. Also very good teachers and I hadn't learnt to teach myself at that stage, as well as the fact I was essentially destined for university since I first took to science.

I also knew some people very well, one of them I'm annoyed I lost contact with as he was essentially my best friend (any allegations of me having a crush on him would have been totally accurate, but I wasn't comfortable with my sexuality at the time). I didn't even get teased for being fat, although there was a bit of bullying just after I got my diagnosis of autism that stopped when I simply began hanging out in a different bit of the school and the perpetrators got bored. Had some very good friends, I still chat to a couple online.

Although I'll admit I had a much better experience at uni for everything except my weight (a mixture of having to plan my meals for the first time and friends who still refuse to believe I'm obesse).

It's like the person is emerging from the friendzone to their victory.

Okay, I'm still confused about this stuff. Why is the friendzone considered so terrible? Some of my best friendships have come out of accepting the fact that they just don't like me and moving on. At least twice being friendzoned was the best thing that could have happened to me.

[Chen]

But try not to sound disappeared or too excited.

Just go like hey long time no see, how are you doing? We should catch up stuff like that. Don't go all

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

The latter, as everyone had said, is clearly terrible. The former though is too vague. If you want to ask someone out on a date, do it clearly.

[S@tanicoaldo]

O.o Why would anyone say that? There are so many creepy things involved with that statement it makes the head boggle.

I'm sorry I haven't seen your other posts but you did said that you are kind of bad with this so I set the bar very low, so if you think this is bad and wouldn't do it you are above a bunch of people, trust me, this is almost as bad as it can get.

Okay, I'm still confused about this stuff. Why is the friendzone considered so terrible? Some of my best friendships have come out of accepting the fact that they just don't like me and moving on. At least twice being friendzoned was the best thing that could have happened to me.

Because some guys for some reason believe with all their hearths that they are entitled to sex and affection.

Which they aren't obviously, so when you tell then you aren't feeling it but you like him but not in a romantic way he gets angry and accuses you of playing mind games and if you weren't interested in dating him why bother, you say you enjoyed his company and mutual interest and didn't expected him not enjoying the time you two spent together (you were having tons of fun) he stars saying a bunch of sexist things you get a sense relief that you dodged a bullet there and tell him not to worry since there is no way you are putting him of the friendzone since your company is such a chore.

I wonder when did nerdy and geeky guys got so toxic, they used to be so nice. Guys don't be that guy. :/

[AuthorGirl]

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Could be a generational instead of regional difference.

Could be. My parents use it the same way, though. Maybe it's both.

[Liquor Box]

Okay, I'm still confused about this stuff. Why is the friendzone considered so terrible? Some of my best friendships have come out of accepting the fact that they just don't like me and moving on. At least twice being friendzoned was the best thing that could have happened to me.

The term "friendzone" generally applies when the person so zoned (usually, but not always, men in common usage) had the goal of sex or perhaps a romantic relationship, and not friendship. Being put in the friendzone represents failing to get the sex, and instead getting the booby prize (friendship with someone they didn't want to be friends with).

I have never heard it used in the more sinister way satanicoaldo refers to.

[Form]

I think that the whole 'friendzone' think and associated behavior is in part the result of certain cultural expectations and the fact that what is expected of men and women differs. I've noticed that in contemporary dating culture there is often still a desire for a certain amount of plausible deniability, supposedly to reduce the amount of pressure, and a date still often tends to be treated as a big Thing. However, that also leads to ambiguous situations in which the nature of the relationship between 2 people is not clear to one or both of them.

Men tend to have to deal with this more than women, because men are still often expected to initiate courtship and bring a relationship to the next level. A situation like that can be very frustrating as they're investing a lot of time and effort in someone who is not on the same page as they are. Time and effort that they're willing to invest in a significant other, but not in the pursuit of 'merely' another friendship. Unfortunately, sometimes men react poorly to that and take out their frustration on the woman they're courting and act inappriopriately (sometimes extremely so). The correct way for a guy to deal with that situation is to simply, gracefully break off the friendship and move on or by being explicit right from the start, regardless of cultural expections of plausible deniability.

[Anonymouswizard]

The term "friendzone" generally applies when the person so zoned (usually, but not always, men in common usage) had the goal of sex or perhaps a romantic relationship, and not friendship. Being put in the friendzone represents failing to get the sex, and instead getting the booby prize (friendship with someone they didn't want to be friends with).

I have never heard it used in the more sinister way satanicoaldo refers to.

I mean, the idea still confuses me. Sure, I may not have got the sex (ever), but I still don't get why being friends with somebody is considered such a booby prize. I mean, sure, they didn't get what they wanted, but surely having another friend isn't the worst thing in the world?

I mean, I also get confused by men who insist they can't ever have a proper friendship with a woman. Does what gender somebody identifies as (or, more often in these people's minds, what's between their legs) really make that much of a difference to how you interact with them? It literally baffles me, especially as the majority of my friends are probably women.


As a side note, I was speaking to a friend about my breakup, where her response boils down to 'don't do that again, but in the grand scheme of things it wasn't anything horrible, many people would likely have been fine with it, and women are confusing'. Her response to my joke about going gay was to just claim that gay men are better dressed women.

[Asmotherion]

But try not to sound disappeared or too excited.

Just go like hey long time no see, how are you doing? We should catch up stuff like that. Don't go all

"I used to love you at grad school but you were with another guy plz go out with me this time I'll make you happy since he clearly did not."

Well, it depends on non-verbal comunication really. And don't use terms like love. You can't actually love someone you're not already in a long term relationship with... love is something build with time and something mutual.

But if I was single, and a girl told me "Hey, I remember you, I used to have a crush on you back in high school, but you had a girlfriend back then and I respected that", I would at the very least give her a chance and ask her out for a Date; Or in my current situation, inform her I am married, and tell her to come over and hang out with my wife or something.

The important thing, is not comming out as creepy "I used to stalk you back then and now that you're single you have to date me" kind of approach. Just keep it casual, and if things go as you want, so be it. If not, keep dating until the other person actually expresses romantic interests towards you. Don't invest emotionally blindly, without any feedback, or you might feel very very frustrated if things don't go the way you want. That's the best advice I can give. Hope I helped.

[Anymage]

I mean, the idea still confuses me. Sure, I may not have got the sex (ever), but I still don't get why being friends with somebody is considered such a booby prize. I mean, sure, they didn't get what they wanted, but surely having another friend isn't the worst thing in the world?

Define "friend". Sometimes the word is simply used to mean that your feelings aren't reciprocated, and that blows. Other times, though, you get someone who feels like the default state for friendship is people putting in effort for her the same way they would when they were courting her. That lopsided focus of effort/investment is indeed a bad deal.

Most of the people who focus on that concept tend to be high school aged themselves, and/or fixated on how things were back then. (As I noted to someone else upthread, high school students tend to be crummy people on account of not fully developing an understanding of how their actions impact other people.) Other people just seem drawn to crummy people in general. But the concept doesn't just spring from pure entitlement or fiction.

As a side note, I was speaking to a friend about my breakup, where her response boils down to 'don't do that again, but in the grand scheme of things it wasn't anything horrible, many people would likely have been fine with it, and women are confusing'. Her response to my joke about going gay was to just claim that gay men are better dressed women.

One word. Bears.

On to her main point, though. As someone who called that something in this relationship would go south when you met face to face, know that if it wasn't this thing it would have been something else. The stated, immediate reason someone gives often isn't the same as the underlying cause. Most people have dealt with awkward, handsy encounters. And while they're not the most comfortable, neither are they horribly scarring either. This wasn't a case of you being uniquely or especially horrid.

[AuthorGirl]

I mean, the idea still confuses me. Sure, I may not have got the sex (ever), but I still don't get why being friends with somebody is considered such a booby prize. I mean, sure, they didn't get what they wanted, but surely having another friend isn't the worst thing in the world?

I mean, I'm a girl (so my perspective may be different), but I really like the friendships where we'd never think of dating. They're very comfortable.

Define "friend". Sometimes the word is simply used to mean that your feelings aren't reciprocated, and that blows. Other times, though, you get someone who feels like the default state for friendship is people putting in effort for her the same way they would when they were courting her. That lopsided focus of effort/investment is indeed a bad deal.

Most of the people who focus on that concept tend to be high school aged themselves, and/or fixated on how things were back then. (As I noted to someone else upthread, high school students tend to be crummy people on account of not fully developing an understanding of how their actions impact other people.) Other people just seem drawn to crummy people in general. But the concept doesn't just spring from pure entitlement or fiction.

Hey, now I have a much better understanding of why people would complain about the "friendzone!" Thank you

[Liquor Box]

I mean, the idea still confuses me. Sure, I may not have got the sex (ever), but I still don't get why being friends with somebody is considered such a booby prize. I mean, sure, they didn't get what they wanted, but surely having another friend isn't the worst thing in the world?

I mean, I also get confused by men who insist they can't ever have a proper friendship with a woman. Does what gender somebody identifies as (or, more often in these people's minds, what's between their legs) really make that much of a difference to how you interact with them? It literally baffles me, especially as the majority of my friends are probably women.

What's confusing? You may always see friendship as a desirable alternative to sex, but some others to not.

That need not be because they can never be friends with women. It may be because a particular person is hot enough to want to have sex with them, but not interesting enough to be friends with. Or it may be because the person already has plenty of friends (possibly of both genders) so doesn't want more.

Also, as I mentioned, I don't think the term friendzone is confined to men. Here is some media where it is used in relation to lesbian women:
https://www.yourtango.com/experts/ma...an-friend-zone

At the end of the day it is each to their own, and if some people are looking for sex and see being friendzoned as an undesirable outcome, then that's their call and there is nothing wrong with that. People are not entitled to friendship from a person who has been courting them any more than the person doing the courting is entitled to sex. It's not a moral issue, it's just different people want different things from each other, and it is best if everyone finds someone who recipricates their wants.

[Tvtyrant]

Another one that I have seen often is when two people spend enough time together that it diverts resources away from other areas, making it more difficult to maintain other friendships and relationships. It seems like in that scenario there is a choice, to become more distant in order to pursue other relationships or to hook up, which then paints the result as more sinister then it really is.

Teenagers have a hard time expressing "I like being your friend but this relationship interferes with my desire for something more intimate. If I can't achieve that here I am going to need more space to achieve it elsewhere."

[Florian]

I mean, the idea still confuses me. Sure, I may not have got the sex (ever), but I still don't get why being friends with somebody is considered such a booby prize. I mean, sure, they didn't get what they wanted, but surely having another friend isn't the worst thing in the world?

I mean, I also get confused by men who insist they can't ever have a proper friendship with a woman. Does what gender somebody identifies as (or, more often in these people's minds, what's between their legs) really make that much of a difference to how you interact with them? It literally baffles me, especially as the majority of my friends are probably women.

We're basically still animals and we have some hardwired pleasure/reward things with our brain, lymbic system and so on. Life simply is good when you are in tune with your primal urges and can act upon them.

[2D8HP]

We're basically still animals and we have some hardwired pleasure/reward things with our brain, lymbic system and so on. Life simply is good when you are in tune with your primal urges and can act upon them.

Except that people tend to be bad a guessing what we think will make us happy.

Our desires drive us to seek more romance, status, and wealth, but what tends to make us happy is deep conversations on topics that interest us, and trading jokes with friends.

The classic example is many studies showing people accepting longer commutes in order to have more spending money or a larger home, when most would be happier with more free time.

[Anonymouswizard]

One word. Bears.

Yeah, but it was a bit more of a joke, based on the gay men she knows.

However, this is a friend where we both insult each others tastes in partners (and we know each other well enough to pick this stuff out), so it wasn't really serious.

On to her main point, though. As someone who called that something in this relationship would go south when you met face to face, know that if it wasn't this thing it would have been something else. The stated, immediate reason someone gives often isn't the same as the underlying cause. Most people have dealt with awkward, handsy encounters. And while they're not the most comfortable, neither are they horribly scarring either. This wasn't a case of you being uniquely or especially horrid.

Yeah, the thing was more 'when somebody says stop £@*&ing stop, and she might not have told you everything'. I plan to have a proper talk with my ex about it if she ever decides she wants to speak to me again (I mean I still have her phone number, unless she's changed it, but I'm not on a phone plan that would let me call her anyway), until then I've stopped beating myself up about it, and not I just feel terrible.

Life simply is good when you are in tune with your primal urges and can act upon them.

I'm fairly certain that there's laws about that. No means no, or something along those lines, as well as that pesky definition or murder.

@2D8HP: that'll somewhat depend on where you live, in my area it's understood that although it's great for commuting to where a lot of work is, nobody can afford to buy a house and anybody with more than two children (one for some houses) is going to feel happier moving to the country and sucking up the longer commute. Actually I've known several people who would have been happier with a commute of an hour and a half each way if they got to spend their weekends in the countryside, the ones with enough money just end up with a cheap home for weekdays in the city and their 'real' home in the country.

[Florian]

I'm fairly certain that there's laws about that. No means no, or something along those lines, as well as that pesky definition or murder.

You've got a very weird view on the issue. To use an example, a sadist should not "rape" someone but find a willing masochist so both will get pleasure out of it, that satisfies primal urges and still stays within the boundary of the laws.

For both sides to work, sadist and masochists, must know the source of their pleasure and should have come to terms with it.

2D8HP is insofar correct, as a lot of people just seem to not be in touch with what they actually want, what the sources of their pleasure are.

Edit: If intellectual intercourse with people is your source of please (aka having a good conversation), that's different from seeing your sex or gender needs as source of pleasure.

[Sivarias]

Just a final note on the friend-zone thing, there are women who will intentionally "lead men on" as it were. Essentially flirting for favors, implying that dating/sex might be on the table at some point but the guy needs to "earn" it first. Then she goes around and has fun and romantic/sexual relationships with people she's actually attracted to.

Frankly it's ****ty behavior, and someone above already mentioned how to handle it. You grow up and either A) break off the friendship or B) accept that friendship is only going to happen and reinforce your boundaries and not get taken advantage of.

The second problem is that more often then not, when men are complaining about "friend-zone" it's because they WERE NOT clear from the git-go and it was just an honest to God misunderstanding. Unfortunately, due to exposure to the type I mentioned first, they instead attribute it to maliciousness rather than misunderstanding. They also can't grow up and just enforce their own boundaries. (My one friend was wrapped around one chicks finger so bad that he would regularly pay for hotel stays and plane ticket back home to her folks in Chicago just to "hang out". Her parents even called him "future-son-in-law". When he finally broke off the "relationship", they had never even kissed, had and official "date", or any of the other benefits of an actual romantic relationship. Meanwhile she was choosing to live the attractive single woman life at uni.)

I'm not saying it happens frequently. I'm just saying it happens, and that the perception of intentional maliciousness - whether it's true or not - is the source of the angry bitterness.

Honestly I don't have much patience for them. It's their own fault for letting someone use them like that, or simply not being clear to begin with.

Final note. The last thing I see is when a guy asks a girl out on a date, she flips it because she doesn't want to be "that bitch" who just completely rejected him out of hand, so she offers to just be friends. That puts the pressure of rejection on the guy, and instead of sacking up and accepting it. They instead either A) see hope for a relationship later, or B) can't handle having to reject someone themselves, so they accept. Then they whine about the friend-zone later.

[FinnLassie]

I would like to add that friendzoning applies to all genders.

There are women and men that lead on, that are basically just abusive pricks. That's a completely different deal. And these people I would like to believe are in the minority.

Another add is that I've been told that I've been leading someone on when that was 0% the case. They just formed that image in their head, and then acclaimed themselves to have been friendzoned cruelly.

[Anonymouswizard]

You've got a very weird view on the issue. To use an example, a sadist should not "rape" someone but find a willing masochist so both will get pleasure out of it, that satisfies primal urges and still stays within the boundary of the laws.

Sorry, I should have used blue text to make it obvious I wasn't being serious.

Final note. The last thing I see is when a guy asks a girl out on a date, she flips it because she doesn't want to be "that bitch" who just completely rejected him out of hand, so she offers to just be friends. That puts the pressure of rejection on the guy, and instead of sacking up and accepting it. They instead either A) see hope for a relationship later, or B) can't handle having to reject someone themselves, so they accept. Then they whine about the friend-zone later.

Oh god, I hate being 'let down gently'. I had a girl do it once and it honestly just feels insulting. We honestly could have become good friends anyway, but she just didn't want a friend at that point and as she was a foreigner (I might have a 'thing') she didn't feel comfortable just saying no to me. So yeah, we talked a bit more after a few months, but never really became close.

A general rule I've had for when I realise I'm being asked out, is that if the person doesn't react well to being told 'no' then I probably don't want to be friends with them anyway. I once had a crush politely walk away when I asked them out (a firm no if I've ever seen one), and then about an hour later contact me and offer a firm no, explaining that they just didn't like me. Although I do have a tendency of getting to know somebody a bit before I even ask them out on a date, so maybe most women don't feel like they'd just be 'that bitch' in that case.

[Sivarias]

A general rule I've had for when I realise I'm being asked out

Holy crap you must be seriously attractive!

[Anonymouswizard]

Holy crap you must be seriously attractive!

While I'll admit that I'm not exactly plain looking when I'm less obesse and taking good care of myself, I haven't actually been asked out that much. A handful of times, but only once by anybody I was actually interested in.

But it's a general rule because it comes from my tendency of clear refusal to any request I don't want (and isn't something like a task given by an employer), and because the women I'm likely to be asked out by aren't the kind I'm actually interested in dating (that might sound snobbish or elitest or whatever, but it's more just personal experience speaking).

[Sivarias]

While I'll admit that I'm not exactly plain looking when I'm less obesse and taking good care of myself, I haven't actually been asked out that much. A handful of times, but only once by anybody I was actually interested in.

But it's a general rule because it comes from my tendency of clear refusal to any request I don't want (and isn't something like a task given by an employer), and because the women I'm likely to be asked out by aren't the kind I'm actually interested in dating (that might sound snobbish or elitest or whatever, but it's more just personal experience speaking).

Maybe it's different where you are (England right?) but women DONT ask men out here. You'd have to have hunk status (be an 8 minimum on the classic one to ten scale) for it to happen even once.

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe it's different where you are (England right?) but women DONT ask men out here. You'd have to have hunk status (be an 8 minimum on the classic one to ten scale) for it to happen even once.

As a general rule women don't ask men out, but it's not exactly uncommon and I've known several women more than willing to proposition men directly (never happened to me). There's also the case that there's very much an accepted way for women to act around a man who they want to ask them out over here if they don't want to break social convention. Of course, nobody's told men what that way is...

[FinnLassie]

I have to say - asking someone out is also a cultural thing. The USA is far more conservative than Finland for example. Here it's rather common to see women take the initiative, whereas I've noticed that the culture is vastly different across the pond.