XCOM 2 - War of the Chosen Announced

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Steam page.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Promising! It looks like it will overhaul the base game significantly and add a ton of stuff to the strategy layer in particular. This though:

Soldiers can develop bonds with compatible teammates for new abilities and perks.

If this is implemented well it could be the best thing ever.

[BRC]

Hopefully the Chosen will be better than the Alien Rulers from the DLC. The Alien Rulers were cool at first, but got annoying pretty quickly.

[Rodin]

I actually refused to get Alien Rulers based on the reviews. It really sounded like they imbalanced the game.

I wonder if the various factions will show up as enemies, depending on who you side with?

Additional strategic layer stuff was definitely badly needed. The base game's set up was alright but lacked depth.

Biggest thing they need is more variety in the missions. They all basically boiled down to "reach objective within time limit" with not much variation between them. We need to get missions like "rescue allied group of soldiers who are exchanging fire with the aliens" that change the flow of how the missions go.

[boomwolf]

Alien rules were interesting, but the implementation was problametic.

That "get an action for every Xcom action" gets really silly in large numbers (and in long war for example), and makes the mere act of brining rookies to missions a possible punishment for the good soldiers.

[Vitruviansquid]

Since we are taking this thread to trash on Alien Rulers, I will throw in my 2 cents:

The Alien Rulers was pretty bad. You got special, difficult challenges in the form of the Alien Rulers, which is supposed to be countered by giving you access to free special weapons. Only, with the special weapons, you were overpowered against missions without Alien Rulers, but you couldn't just choose to not bring the weapons in case an alien ruler showed up. Then, once you beat the rulers, you got special tricked out armor from them... which only further imbalances the game in your favor, especially if you killed all the alien rulers and were simply left to play the rest of the game with bonus weapons and bonus armors.

So I was kind of crestfallen when I saw in the trailer that the Chosen expansion was supposed to revolve around mechanics much like the Alien Rulers. But then, it seems like so many of the game's systems were going to be added, changed, and generally messed with, that I could actually see it working out.

On the other hand, I'm not totally excited for zombies, both thematically and as a gameplay mechanic. I really don't see how zombies would be made compelling in Xcom's battle system.

[Hunter Noventa]

Hopefully the Chosen will be better than the Alien Rulers from the DLC. The Alien Rulers were cool at first, but got annoying pretty quickly.

Apparently Jake Soloman said they're reworking how Alien Rulers work, specifically in regards to them getting a turn for every one of yours.

I for one look forward to shotgunning cheesy comic-book villain aliens in the face.

[factotum]

Is it still going to have those irritating turn limits on most of the maps? Because if so, not interested. Never finished XCOM 2 because of those, no interest in getting even more of them.

[heronbpv]

Regarding the timers, you can always mod these. But I would also like an in-game, native option to disable mission timers (in a way akin to the second wave options of Enemy Unkown/Within).
As for the rulers, I have yet to form a proper opinion. Have dropped my vanilla ironman campaigns twice, because of the DLCs, then dropping my ironman DLC campaign when Long War 2 came, then never finished it because balance updates + awesome mods that I needed to play with from the start...

Yeah. I have to finish at least one Ironman before the expansion comes. It'll be different this time, I swear! :p

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[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Alien Rulers was pretty bad. You got special, difficult challenges in the form of the Alien Rulers, which is supposed to be countered by giving you access to free special weapons. Only, with the special weapons, you were overpowered against missions without Alien Rulers, but you couldn't just choose to not bring the weapons in case an alien ruler showed up. Then, once you beat the rulers, you got special tricked out armor from them... which only further imbalances the game in your favor, especially if you killed all the alien rulers and were simply left to play the rest of the game with bonus weapons and bonus armors.

This. This, all the way home. Excellently put. I'd like to believe the rumour that they'll fix them, but I'm not sure how they possibly could.

Long War 2

Long War 2: promising the game will take longer... then putting stupid, nonsense* time limits in what felt like every mission so you are forced to run everywhere, so you are left with the constant feeling you are in a rush to finish. Also, buggy like all hell.

If the reviews suggest this War of the Chosen takes the best bits (i.e. added depth to the strategic game), I may consider buying it. I did like the XCOM 1 expansion quite a bit (I really liked the infiltration missions, even if the human enemies were never that interesting).

Grey Wolf

*What do you mean, the guy I want to capture is running for his car right now? The time limit still had a whole day left!

[Hunter Noventa]

Is it still going to have those irritating turn limits on most of the maps? Because if so, not interested. Never finished XCOM 2 because of those, no interest in getting even more of them.

Yeah you can mod those out, and it's not every single mission that has them. I personally modded them to give extra turns, enough that it was still a challenge, but not infinite either.

I do however mod out the 'Lose the Game' timer. That's just not fun.

[BRC]

Personally, while I like the idea of turn limits to encourage more aggressive play, I don't like the hard turn limits that they had. I would have preferred softer limits, increasingly dangerous waves of enemy reinforcements, to drive home the whole Guerrilla Warfare feel.

[Hunter Noventa]

Personally, while I like the idea of turn limits to encourage more aggressive play, I don't like the hard turn limits that they had. I would have preferred softer limits, increasingly dangerous waves of enemy reinforcements, to drive home the whole Guerrilla Warfare feel.

There might very well be a mod that does that, which would make sense. I think the idea behind a lot of the turn limits was that 'this is when their air support arrives and you can't evac' since most of the time limit missions make you evac, and the ones that don't have an actual timer on something on the battlefield. Though those are usually easier because you just need to get to that point and hack/blow it and then you don't have to worry about the timer anymore.

[warty goblin]

I rather liked the turn limits, at least on normal difficulty they were hardly ever a substantial issue for me, but did require tactics other than the scoot'n'overwatch. Softer limits might have been nice, but the hard limits weren't bothersome, and made a map vastly less tedious than optimum play in OG XCOM.

I can't say I'm particularly excited for this though. I liked XCOM pretty well, and probably would have liked XCOM 2 much better, except I'd already played a lot of XCOM 1, and there just wasn't enough difference between the two, and most of the stuff that had annoyed me in the first one (pods, annoying LoS, low unit diversity, a gameplay loop built around treadmill numerical upgrades) were alive and well in the second. XCOM 2: More Stuff does not sound like it'll address any of those.

[BRC]

There might very well be a mod that does that, which would make sense. I think the idea behind a lot of the turn limits was that 'this is when their air support arrives and you can't evac' since most of the time limit missions make you evac, and the ones that don't have an actual timer on something on the battlefield. Though those are usually easier because you just need to get to that point and hack/blow it and then you don't have to worry about the timer anymore.

I mean, personally, I felt that they had some great mechanics for a better Guerilla Warfare feel that they didn't use.

Calling in an Evac was only used to abort missions, or on the facility destruction missions. But, I actually really liked it, especially for missions that didn't take place in a city center.

Really, I feel like there should have been three mission types, with three different "Evac" conditions, which is kind of what we ended up having.


1) High security (City Centers), complete the objective, reach the extraction point by the time limit. There's only one extraction point arranged, and Reinforcements are going to be heavy.

2) Mid Security, Suburbs, Slums, Certain wilderness locations. Security is light enough that you can call in an evac anywhere there's room, but it takes a few rounds to get there, during which time you need to hold out against increasing reinforcements.

3) Low Security. Basically just Supply Raid and Retaliation missions. It's actually possible to seize control of the area from ADVENT, at least for the time being. THESE are the only missions with "Kill all enemies" as a victory condition.

As is, most missions had "Kill all enemies" as the victory condition. You only had a certain amount of time to complete the primary objective, afterwards you needed to clean up. Which makes sense in XCOM1, but here we're supposed to be the resistance. We've completed our mission, why are we trying to take control of the area?


As for Turn Limits. There are a bunch of mods that make the timer not start until you break stealth, which makes sense in my book, and makes Stealth much more useful. In the Vanilla game, "Stealth" is basically "Get a free Ambush".

And even Ambushes are not that great, since you often give up your ability to position troops in response to enemy positions.

[factotum]

Personally, while I like the idea of turn limits to encourage more aggressive play, I don't like the hard turn limits that they had.

I don't like them for two main reasons: firstly, if I'm playing a turn-based game in the first place it's because it's a nice relaxing change of pace, so I don't want turn timers or those quicktime events they added in to the South Park combat system. If I wanted to rush through a wargame I'd play an RTS, and if I wanted to have to time my combat blows precisely I'd play a beat-em-up or an Arkham game. Secondly, one of the best additions to XCOM2 was the bit where enemies didn't wake up until you got close to them--that mechanic seemed to me to be designed to allow you to scout out the situation before sending your troops in, something that a turn limit explicitly encourages you not to do because you won't have time to finish the map if you take too long locating the enemy.

Yes, it can be modded out, but I like to know that a game is completable in vanilla before I start modding it--feels too much like cheating otherwise.

[Rodin]

I wish we had actual Infiltration missions. That is to say, missions where you're trying not to fight the aliens AT ALL.

An easy example would be rescuing a VIP. You want to get to the prison without being seen. You want to have a Specialist along to hack the doors without raising an alarm. You could have a Psionic along to Jedi Mind Trick the cell guard. With a proper team and careful movement, you would get in and out without ever being seen. Alternately, you could get up to the prison without being seen - and then blow a hole in the wall of the cell to rescue the VIP, and then fight your way through heavy reinforcements to the Evac.

A similar mission type could be breaking into an ADVENT weapons storage facility. If you just blow the front doors off, you're gonna be swarming with aliens. You have to get as close to the vault as you can before setting off an alarm.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wish we had actual Infiltration missions. That is to say, missions where you're trying not to fight the aliens AT ALL.

An easy example would be rescuing a VIP. You want to get to the prison without being seen. You want to have a Specialist along to hack the doors without raising an alarm. You could have a Psionic along to Jedi Mind Trick the cell guard. With a proper team and careful movement, you would get in and out without ever being seen. Alternately, you could get up to the prison without being seen - and then blow a hole in the wall of the cell to rescue the VIP, and then fight your way through heavy reinforcements to the Evac.

A similar mission type could be breaking into an ADVENT weapons storage facility. If you just blow the front doors off, you're gonna be swarming with aliens. You have to get as close to the vault as you can before setting off an alarm.

Have you played Shadow Tactics? I think you'll enjoy it. It even has a demo, so you can try before you buy. But its core gameplay is pretty much a constant choice of "being stealthy" vs "going in swords blazing". And yes, I'd love XCOM to be able to offer the same choice of tactics in at least some of the missions... but not sure that is even possible in procedurally generated maps. And even if it was, they'd need to rethink the XP system, since inevitably, stealthy teams don't get to kill anyone.

GW

[Rodin]

Have you played Shadow Tactics? I think you'll enjoy it. It even has a demo, so you can try before you buy. But its core gameplay is pretty much a constant choice of "being stealthy" vs "going in swords blazing". And yes, I'd love XCOM to be able to offer the same choice of tactics in at least some of the missions... but not sure that is even possible in procedurally generated maps. And even if it was, they'd need to rethink the XP system, since inevitably, stealthy teams don't get to kill anyone.

GW

Indeed I have, and I greatly enjoyed it. I generally found going in swords blazing to be a route to a quick death, but that's fine since the game's all about stealth anyhow.

I think having it as procedural-based is fine, based on what we already see from XCOM 2 - the objective building is always structurally similar and being careful around patrols isn't too difficult as-is. The XP system is an easy fix - just give a flat rate to all soldiers that survive that mission.

What's more difficult and likely makes the idea into a pipe dream is how alien pathing in Infiltration mode is handled. They're currently set up to always know where your soldiers are and follow you about, with increasingly aggressive following the longer you're stealthed to guarantee eventual combat and actively discourage staying stealthed for too long. For this type of mission to work they'd have to totally toss out that AI package and put in something new.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Indeed I have, and I greatly enjoyed it. I generally found going in swords blazing to be a route to a quick death, but that's fine since the game's all about stealth anyhow.

We must be talking different "swords blazing" because to me that was the "easy mode". The challenge runs that asked me to not kill anyone were by far the trickiest to accomplish (noting I have not even tried the time-based runs because that's not the game I want to play). I did not mean to imply I was rushing in to the mission, but that I left no-one alive in my path to raise any alarms.

The XP system is an easy fix - just give a flat rate to all soldiers that survive that mission.

I mean, sure, that works, but it lacks something if you ask me. Of course, down my path lies an idea wonderful in paper but terrible in every execution I have seen of it: awarding different XPs for different actions: you shoot? You get better with the gun. You sneak unseen? You get better at that.

I wonder (and I'm spit-balling as I type now) if there wouldn't be some merit to combining both approaches: each mission has a pool of xp, that will be awarded for completing it. Each soldier is awarded equal parts, and then for that soldier, it is divided into categories: shooting while under fire, assisting others, reaction shooting, sniping, turns unseen, etc.

That would prevent any attempts at farming the level (as I may have been known to do when in a good defensive position that allowed me to take on entire reinforcements as they dropped) while still rewarding specialization. Generalist might get a bit shafted, but if you make each successive level exponentially more XP-expensive, that would allow the generalist to gain multitude of base level abilities while the specialist must struggle to gain their most advanced (and broken) abilities.

Grey Wolf

[Hunter Noventa]

I mean, sure, that works, but it lacks something if you ask me. Of course, down my path lies an idea wonderful in paper but terrible in every execution I have seen of it: awarding different XPs for different actions: you shoot? You get better with the gun. You sneak unseen? You get better at that.

That was actually partially how the old X-COM from the 90s worked. Every action improved your experience level in some stat, and when that got high enough, your stat went up.

Would be a pretty extensive mod for XCOM though.

[Vitruviansquid]

I always thought it was a pretty big flaw in the Firaxis Xcoms' formula that most of your deaths will involve triggering a pod of aliens in an unfortunate circumstance, and then not being able to reposition your soldiers while the enemies get free flanking shots.

Long War 2 made this even worse with the yellow alerts where aliens get to shoot you on the turn they arrive.

I die more to unfortunate reveals of alien pods than to actual bad luck or poor tactics, which makes the game feel as if you are constantly being punished for things outside of your control.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I always thought it was a pretty big flaw in the Firaxis Xcoms' formula that most of your deaths will involve triggering a pod of aliens in an unfortunate circumstance, and then not being able to reposition your soldiers while the enemies get free flanking shots.

Long War 2 made this even worse with the yellow alerts where aliens get to shoot you on the turn they arrive.

I die more to unfortunate reveals of alien pods than to actual bad luck or poor tactics, which makes the game feel as if you are constantly being punished for things outside of your control.

This is also responsible for the "move and overwatch" "ideal" tactic mentioned above which slows down everything and that which the deplorable time limits were introduced to fight.

Since I seem to be in a "throw spaghetti at the wall" design mood, I do wonder: would it work better if, when a pod is revealed, all your 'already moved' characters got a small free move, just like the aliens do? Maybe just a three/four square move (with certain builds getting to instead/in addition cower/overwatch/shoot/move further/etc.)? That way, you can be a little more careless moving forward, but not so much you can just disregard all cover.

GW

[Silfir]

I don't like them for two main reasons: firstly, if I'm playing a turn-based game in the first place it's because it's a nice relaxing change of pace, so I don't want turn timers or those quicktime events they added in to the South Park combat system. If I wanted to rush through a wargame I'd play an RTS, and if I wanted to have to time my combat blows precisely I'd play a beat-em-up or an Arkham game. Secondly, one of the best additions to XCOM2 was the bit where enemies didn't wake up until you got close to them--that mechanic seemed to me to be designed to allow you to scout out the situation before sending your troops in, something that a turn limit explicitly encourages you not to do because you won't have time to finish the map if you take too long locating the enemy.

Yes, it can be modded out, but I like to know that a game is completable in vanilla before I start modding it--feels too much like cheating otherwise.

Now, that's not a valid complaint - there is no real-time element to the turn limits. They require you to think more, because you have to optimize around the fact you have a limited amount of turns. Turn-based games that require efficiency with your actions aren't in any way unusual - I'd say they're more common, not less.

The system is thematically appropriate as well - resistance groups on hit-and-run missions don't get to dawdle. Makes perfect sense.

The true culprit is the game's "pod activation" system. When there is no time limit, the optimal strategy is to spend dozens of turns scouting the map bit by bit by bit, which is tedious to the max - because aliens aren't allowed to scout the map and hunt you down on their own time, there is nothing stopping you from doing whatever.

The optimal XCOM game would use the old system, in which games would hunt you down on their own terms and you had to get your troops organized quickly, but that results in a deadlier game that requires more soldiers.

Another issue that exacerbates the downsides of the turn limit system is the return of procedurally generated maps. You'll end up with very unfair turn limits from time to time simply because the game can't anticipate and calculate all combinations of maps and alien pods.

I still think the game is overall more interesting with the turn limits than without. To each his own.

[Vitruviansquid]

This is also responsible for the "move and overwatch" "ideal" tactic mentioned above which slows down everything and that which the deplorable time limits were introduced to fight.

GW

Meh.

"Move and Overwatch" was killed off, rightfully in my mind, by turn limits. In another respect, the far higher mobility of soldiers in Xcom2 compared to Xcom 1 made it unnecessary as well.

[Rodin]

We must be talking different "swords blazing" because to me that was the "easy mode". The challenge runs that asked me to not kill anyone were by far the trickiest to accomplish (noting I have not even tried the time-based runs because that's not the game I want to play). I did not mean to imply I was rushing in to the mission, but that I left no-one alive in my path to raise any alarms.

Yeah, definitely difference in terms there. For me, "swords blazing" means dynamiting the gate, charging in and murdering the remaining guards, then standing in the middle of the square screaming "WHO ELSE WANTS SOME!?!?!?"

I played the game very much like you did - knocking out the guards felt virtually impossible on the couple times I tried it, so I stuck with the "slit everyone's throat silently" strategy.

The true culprit is the game's "pod activation" system. When there is no time limit, the optimal strategy is to spend dozens of turns scouting the map bit by bit by bit, which is tedious to the max - because aliens aren't allowed to scout the map and hunt you down on their own time, there is nothing stopping you from doing whatever.

The optimal XCOM game would use the old system, in which games would hunt you down on their own terms and you had to get your troops organized quickly, but that results in a deadlier game that requires more soldiers.

I really miss the old system. The pod system has always felt extremely artificial. Another problem of pods is that it encourages "Alpha strike" tactics - since the aliens can never attack the turn they spot you, the best strategy becomes "nuke them from orbit" and destroying them before they can react. I would greatly prefer the old system where the aliens get to move and attack on their turn, just like you can. You could even add modern AI sensibilities to them, where the aliens have their own tasks that they default to and then get weighted decision making based on circumstances (like hearing weapon fire, for example).

Unlikely we'll see that in the actual XCOM franchise itself since they're pretty wedded to pods now. Maybe Phoenix Point will have something like it.

[Dienekes]

I don't like them for two main reasons: firstly, if I'm playing a turn-based game in the first place it's because it's a nice relaxing change of pace, so I don't want turn timers or those quicktime events they added in to the South Park combat system. If I wanted to rush through a wargame I'd play an RTS, and if I wanted to have to time my combat blows precisely I'd play a beat-em-up or an Arkham game. Secondly, one of the best additions to XCOM2 was the bit where enemies didn't wake up until you got close to them--that mechanic seemed to me to be designed to allow you to scout out the situation before sending your troops in, something that a turn limit explicitly encourages you not to do because you won't have time to finish the map if you take too long locating the enemy.

Yes, it can be modded out, but I like to know that a game is completable in vanilla before I start modding it--feels too much like cheating otherwise.

Interestingly, I thought the only thing that made the South Park combat system playable was the quicktime events.

Holy balls, list combat is not fun.

In any case, I played through XCOM2 on the hardest difficulty. Only once did the time limit really screw me (had to leave 2 guys behind). Other than that, I actually liked it, once you got used to it.

Without the time limit, XCOM is just setting up perfect ambushes and following through. Being forced to keep moving for the objective makes you take greater risks for success, and since I played a lot of XCOM I felt that was pretty much needed to keep my interest in the game.

Though, I think part of why I was ok with it, was that I built my team to keep moving. Having 1 or 2 sword Rangers with Rapid-Fire. Hot damn things just melt as you roll through.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Though, I think part of why I was ok with it, was that I built my team to keep moving. Having 1 or 2 sword Rangers with Rapid-Fire. Hot damn things just melt as you roll through.

Exactly. In the same way that XCOM 1 practically forced you to use snipers, XCOM 2 forces you to use rangers. I dislike games that pretend to give you choices of how to play, and then it turns out most of those choices are traps. Bully for you if it turns out that the style you want to play is the one the designers want you to play, but I don't see that as great game design, personally.

Like factotum put it: if I wanted to play a tense run-and-gun game, I would purchase an FPS.

GW

[factotum]

Now, that's not a valid complaint - there is no real-time element to the turn limits.
.
.
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The system is thematically appropriate as well - resistance groups on hit-and-run missions don't get to dawdle. Makes perfect sense.

I don't think I ever said there is a real-time element to the turn limits? I just meant that they feel like the game is rushing me through rather than letting me take my time, and that's why I said I might as well play an RTS if the game is going to do that.

Also, it may be thematically appropriate, but the turn limits are absurdly low. Think what an X-Com soldier can do in a single turn--sprint maybe 20-30m, or run half that and take a single aimed shot (barring double shot perks and the like). So, that makes a turn 10, 15 seconds long at most. Yet I'm supposed to believe that an alien interception team is going to arrive 8 turns after I arrive on the map? If the aliens are really so clued up about my movements that they can be there in a couple of minutes, how the hell are they never locating the GIANT FLYING BASE my team is flying from?