Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[Emanick]

I'm given to understand the meaning of 'citizen' became diluted over the years. In the time of Augustine, it was mostly restricted to Rome and allied Italian cities -- wasn't that what the Socii war was about? To extend citizenship to the other members of the Latin league? Acquiring citizenship by any other means was very rare and very expensive. But that's from memory.

Anyway, fast forward several hundred years. By the time the Empire falls in 476 citizenship in the empire is universal but also near-meaningless.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Augustine... of Hippo? He lived during the dying days of the Empire (though died a few decades before its total fall), so I'm guessing you're thinking of someone else. Augustus?

[Lacuna Caster]

...and? If they do, then it's against forum rules, and the entire premise of the thread is unproductive. If they don't, then others are allowed to voice their own opinions as well. Either way, nothing is lost by people objecting to someone expressing a point of view in a forum that is intended to foster discussion.

Complaining about pacing isn't quite the same thing as complaining about the update schedule, and we don't really know what the OP is specifically complaining about. Absent such info, most of the discussion is focused on the poster, not the arguments of the poster, which is ad-hominem in spirit if not by technicality. (That, and completely tangential comparisons with roman citizenship.)

I don't know if much is lost this way, but I doubt that much is gained.

[Peelee]

Complaining about pacing isn't quite the same thing as complaining about the update schedule, and we don't really know what the OP is specifically complaining about.

My mistake. But complaining about the pacing is still subject to possible dissent by those who disagree. If the complaint is unclear, the onus is on the OP to clarify it (assuming they want actual discussion on the subject, which seems unlikely as OP has written only simple hit-and-run posts).

[Ruck]

Complaining about the pacing in terms of strips-- i.e. "I thought this story should have been finished in 10 strips, and instead it took 25" would have been an allowable criticism.

However, OP made specific reference to the real-time schedule, which is not allowed.

[SilverCacaobean]

Okay, whoa. It's possible the OP is unhappy with the pace of events, not necessarily with the actual structure of the plot. And there is no inherent requirement that you be a fan in order to complain about a work (even if it makes the moniker a bit odd.)

*sigh* do we really have to dissect this inanity?
The very first sentence is clearly against the rules, since it is a complaint about spending too much real time on a plot the OP finds disagreeable.

The second is an insult, that doesn't bother to explain how exactly the quality has dropped. It mentions the kickstarter, which may or may not be an implication about stuff that I'd rather not mention but this kind of ambiguity goes hand to hand with this kind of sterile posting.

The third is a downright no true scotsman fallacy, that asserts that what we're reading is not the true story.

None of this implies the the OP has a problem with the pace of events so what you said is irrelevant.


And speaking of what is lost and gained, I found the digression about the Roman Empire very interesting.
Why don't we go back to that, before the mods come here and do to us whatever it is they do to dissidents, around here?

[Lacuna Caster]

However, OP made specific reference to the real-time schedule, which is not allowed.

Fair, but in that case, what are we talking about? The only other point the OP made was being dissatisfied with the 'quality of the story', which is too vague to rebut.

I'm not seeing anything to substantively talk about here, is my point, other than 'nope' or 'huh?'. And if it takes multiple pages to say so, one might start to think the forum doth protest too much.

[Peelee]

I'm not seeing anything to substantively talk about here, is my point, other than 'nope' or 'huh?'.

And yet you joined in the discussion.

If you really think there is nothing to talk about, you could always just ignore it instead of trying to lecture everyone who does feel there is something to talk about.

[ChillerInstinct]

Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.

There's a quote from the Giant somewhere about how, long after OOTS is done, his work will be judged from the lens of being a complete piece of fiction, not as a webcomic which updates. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point is that what really matters is how it'll read when it's all over. What works as a brisk pace for those of us who check the site a few times a week or more is WILDLY different from what would work from the perspective of someone who, say, decides to binge read the whole comic from start to finish in 2025.

To put it another way, if the comic went at the pace a lot of the naysayers want, it would be VERY choppy and rushed when viewed as a full story. For all the talk about how the story is "dragging" with the mutiny plot, it's only been 30 or so pages. When it's all printed, that's honestly not all that much.

[ATrueFan]

A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

7.

@ATrueFan (if that's your real name)- What exactly is it that you dislike about the airship passage, and how do you feel it could be improved? Do you mean that the pacing is off? Do you mean that the update schedule is slow? Or do you mean that the airship should not have been included at all, and if so, why? Or is it something else entirely? Your post is a bit light on specifics.

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

8. I just want this comic to succeed in the best way possible.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.


-ATrueFan

[ORione]

I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history

That's an odd impression, considering the Order's not currently trying to stop Xykon. They're putting that to the side to focus on preventing a vampire from commiting election fraud.

Also, how can you know what's filler when you don't even know the whole plot? I bet back when Miko was dragging the Order to Azure City, there were fans complaining that the Miko plot was filler. But if that hadn't happened, the Order wouldn't even know about the Snarl.

[SaintRidley]

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.

-ATrueFan

Consider that you literally cannot know that nothing right now will have an effect on the conclusion of the story, as we're still in the story before that can happen, and your complaint disappears in a puff of logic.

All I see is someone who is bad at reading stories complaining about the serialized nature of the story.

[pendell]

Augustine... of Hippo? He lived during the dying days of the Empire (though died a few decades before its total fall), so I'm guessing you're thinking of someone else. Augustus?

*Smacks forehead*. Yes, Augustus. First among equals etc. etc.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[yldenfrei]

something something

For a considerable wall of text, you still managed to leave out the contentious bits. Namely:
- exactly what/how STORY QUALITY is being impacted (negatively, by your tone) by recent events?
- What IN-COMIC TIME are you referring to?
- which part are you referring to as FILLER?

Because if the FILLER you're referring to is this the mutiny subplot, then you're complaining about some 27+ pages (out of 129 pages thus far for the current book)(also being generous here, as at least 1/3 of that features the Order). Or by your IN-COMIC TIME, less than a day.

You're ostensibly defending that you don't care for the pacing/how the comic updates (despite what you said in your first post), and yet none of your points direct to anything substantiated, aside from the general "They're not going after Xykon so they're doing it wrong!". I'm afraid we can't help you on that front.

You know what else felt like filler at the time it was happening? The starmetal sidequest. And that took 60+ pages, not even counting the time that elapsed until Roy finally managed to reforge his sword. Then look what we have now: a shiny weapon of legacy that would prove to be integral in vanquishing the big bad.

So to reiterate: what exactly are you complaining about?

All I see is someone who is bad at reading stories complaining about the serialized nature of the story.

Seconded.

[Kish]

The book currently going up on the website is the sixth of seven. Its villain is Greg, the vampire spirit possessing Durkon. The Order is not going to have their final clash with Xykon in it. If you ever thought they were heading toward that when they left the Godsmoot, given that Roy explicitly said they were going after the vampire and accepting the risk that Xykon would gain control of the last Gate while they were stopping the vampire from destroying the world, I can only conclude that that belief was based on wishful thinking, possibly aided by skimming what you had already decided were meaningless filler strips rather than paying attention to what was going on.

[An Enemy Spy]

People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

[SaintRidley]

The book currently going up on the website is the sixth of seven. Its villain is Greg, the vampire spirit possessing Durkon. The Order is not going to have their final clash with Xykon in it. If you ever thought they were heading toward that when they left the Godsmoot, given that Roy explicitly said they were going after the vampire and accepting the risk that Xykon would gain control of the last Gate while they were stopping the vampire from destroying the world, I can only conclude that that belief was based on wishful thinking, possibly aided by skimming what you had already decided were meaningless filler strips rather than paying attention to what was going on.

People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

Hence my call of "bad at reading stories."

[Douglas]

These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything.

And what makes you so certain that this will remain true? The plot is to a large extent planned quite far in advance. All of this could be essential setup for things that will become important later. And in the mean time, this story is more about characters than about saving the world. And Bandana and Andi are characters in the story that have presently important roles.

Or, to quote The Giant:

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, "There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!" until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is.

Sometimes, the narrative purpose is to set up something that won't happen for 200 strips. Sometimes, it's to enable a joke, or to make the narrative easier to understand for non-players. Sometimes, it's just to stop people from wondering why they didn't use a different spell. And sometimes, it's just a deliberate red herring because this is a serialized story that won't reach its ending for another few years and I don't want everyone to predict what's going to happen along the way. All of those (and more) are legitimate reasons to have a character say or do something, even if not all of them apply to your personal reading experience.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

It also ignores the nature of the story Rich wants to tell, which is a character-based story. Xykon, the rifts, the Snarl, that's just the excuse for getting the OotS moving so they can face challenges and be developed. Eddings put it best: fantasy stories tend to be travel stories, because if the character stay put, they become farmers.

As long as the characters are being developed, it's not filler. And since characters are being developed in this arch (like in all the previous ones), this arch is not filler.

Grey Wolf

[The Extinguisher]

I agree. What's the deal with this whole Snarl thing anyway? Roy already beat Xykon, clearly this is all just an excuse for the author to drag on the story.

#OotsShouldHaveEndedInBookOne

[Porthos]

It also ignores the nature of the story Rich wants to tell, which is a character-based story. Xykon, the rifts, the Snarl, that's just the excuse for getting the OotS moving so they can face challenges and be developed.

Pretty much this.

Another way to put it is there is no single overarching "Main Plot". It should have become apparent that there is no single "Main Plot" when the Order spent just under 200 strips just to get back together after getting separated in Azure City and then another 100 or so strips before they got on the road after being captured soon after they stepped foot on the Western Continent.

The "Main Plot", such as it is, hasn't existed since Azure City got a new landlord. And it could easily be argued that the so-called "Main Plot" didn't even really exist there, either, as more time was spent than not on other things.

Instead, whatever is happening in and around the Order (and by extension things that might affect the Order) is pretty much the plot of the comic. That means it can seem to meander at times and/or focus on things outside of the Xykon/Redcloak/Snarl plotline. But that's because the focus on the story is pretty much the Order of the Stick and the folks they interact with. With some side-looks at people who have been introduced (O-Chul, Redcloak, and so on) and what they may or may not be up to.

That's not to say that one has to find the current story interesting. One can find it dull as dish water. But make no mistake, it's part and parcel of the story Rich wants to tell.

[Fey]

Original Post:

Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.

Ever since he did the kick starter this comic has gone down hill in terms of quality.

Please just focus on what really matters which is progressing the actual STORY that is currently happening.

Edit: This will also be in a post in this thread so it bumps to top

A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.

-ATrueFan

If you don't like the comic so much, go away. Stop reading. The rest of us will be perfectly happy here without you. Have a nice life elsewhere on the internet where everything caters perfectly to your every desire and your free entertainment that no one has to pay for is perfectly suited to your needs.

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

I don't think the entire segment in Rohan needed to be done in Lord of the Rings. Ask yourself what has happened since the Fellowship left Rivendell. Anything important? I was under the impression that we would be finally confronting Sauron and getting down to the most important battle in Middle Earth's history. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. We're just supposed to now care about what's happening with Eowyn and the Rohirim, whole scenes have been dedicated to their own struggles with what's happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel like this whole Helm's Deep plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the Rohirim on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Mordor when we're still talking about who will come to Rohan's aid. Does it matter who leads the last ride of the Rohirim? Is that central to Frodo throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom? I don't know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be seeing.

Or wait maybe stories DON'T HAVE TO RUSH RIGHT TO THE CLIMAX TO BE INTERESTING. I mean, gee, it's not like characters introduced halfway through a story arc can turn out to be important and have a major role to play in the final conflict. Nah, that's just crazy talk.

[Xyril]

Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion.

Respectfully, this may be your impression, but it was not an impression arrived at through logic. Roy's quest was to destroy Xykon for his family, but it has since evolved into a quest to save the world. Killing Xykon is still important, but primarily because Xykon was part of the threat from which the world needed to be saved. After the Godsmoot, it became clear that Hel and the whole Durkula plot had become a more immediate threat to the world. Thus, it seems obvious that the party would want to resolve the more immediate world-destroying threat before getting back to their Xykon hunt.

What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares?

Punctuation please. I try not to be too nitpicky about typos and formatting, but I do feel the issue should be raised when it causes me to take extra time and effort to figure out what you mean. Writing "teh something" is easy to deal with because it's highly unlikely you meant something other than "the something." When the mistakes aren't obvious misspellings and you have to keep reading before you get enough context to realize that a few words back, the writer actually meant to write something else, and you have to do this multiple times, it becomes much more work to try to understand someone.

These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything.

Actually, the whole point of this arc is to show they are in fact important to the main plot. At first, the airship was just the background/sidekick for a character who was primarily there for the sake of Elan and his arc. Then they (the airship and its crew) became a convenience for the crew--a handy way to enable the heroes to continue their journey, the random ferry or airship in a game that exist primarily because the heroes need transport. However, one of the recurring themes of this comic is that, despite living in a world based on game worlds, it is not a game. The fact that the fate of the world and the outcome of the story hinges on the personal lives and conflicts not only of the heroes, but on NPCs who are otherwise irrelevant to the lives of the heroes, is a great subversion. It subverts the typical gaming conceit where some objects and characters exist solely to facilitate game play. It subverts Tarquin's assumption that stories must necessarily center around a protagonist or a group of protagonists, to the extent everyone else is irrelevant. I cared enough to keep reading because the squabble of random minor characters were affecting the big important quest; and then after reading I cared because the minor characters and their squabble turned out to be interesting.

I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level.

You mean giant, right?

It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship.

I guess our brains work differently. To me, this subplot enhances the suspense because the whole time, I can't help but keep in the back of my mind the fact that this conflict may delay the Order to the point where it's too late, or if Andi had won, presented a complete obstacle to the Order. I suppose the suspense would be gone if you had gotten so invested in the Andi fight that you completely forgot about why they were on the ship in the first place, but that's not me.

Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship?

Yes, because if Andi had ended up behind the wheel, then the ship would no longer be heading where the Order needed to go.

Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon?

Yes, because stabbing Xykon requires proximity to Xykon.

I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about.

The world isn't just about the heroes. Sometimes, important things also depend on the seemingly unimportant lives of seemingly unimportant people. To me, that's been one of the important themes of this arc, but that's just my opinion. To you, the important lesson has been that seemingly unimportant people are in fact unimportant and need to stop distracting us.

[Xyril]

Or wait maybe stories DON'T HAVE TO RUSH RIGHT TO THE CLIMAX TO BE INTERESTING.

Much like sex, stories are a race, and ATrueFan intends to be the winner.

[Priceguy]

Another relevant Giant quote:

There are also deep tissue structural reasons for every single strip that appears, but most readers will never be aware of them, even after the fact. Put together, it is very difficult to take any reader-generated criticism seriously unless the critic is capable of putting together a detailed argument that actually manages to change my mind on the topic by addressing the concrete reasons I made those decisions in the first place—reasons which they can't even know about without spoiling the story for themselves. Dropping in to say, "This scene is pointless," neither addresses any possible reasons I may have had for including it nor outweighs the opinion of those readers who are enjoying it, so I dismiss it without further consideration.

An example: People complained about the New Year's Eve arc incessantly while it was happening, but it was utterly crucial for setting up the payoff of Elan kissing Haley for the first time, as well as Celia giving Roy the amulet so that she could show up again when Roy died. It also led directly to the V vs. Belkar prank war, which allowed me to inject some humor-driven strips into the next few scenes. So anyone complaining that the New Year's Eve scene wasn't funny enough and I should get back to the jokes (a more common complaint in that day than now) was in fact arguing against the tool by which I intended to give myself a new set-up for jokes.

There have always been sequences that seemed to have nothing to do with anything but turned out to matter. So will this one. By ATrueFan's logic, the entire Don't Split the Party book was filler. As Belkar says in the foreword: "There's this whole thing with Gates and a god-eating monster, but I'll be honest - it pretty much doesn't come up in this book". The part of the story that doesn't have to do with Xykon is still story.

[Koo Rehtorb]

My personal problem with this arc is that I do not care even one single bit about any of the airship crew and they are getting a disproportionate (in my view) amount of time dedicated to them.

Of all of them only Bandana and Andi are of any note at all. Bandana is an okay character. I was fine with her when she turned up. But after what feels like literally dozens of strips dedicated to going "Hey guys look at how cool and competent Bandana is. Isn't she awesome?" she's worn very thin. And it's not helped any by the fact that the only other character with any major development feels like a two-dimensional caricature designed, again, to show off how awesome Bandana is. This plotline could have been more interesting if Andi and Bandana both had valid points and character flaws and learned to work better together and pull through in the end. But nope Andi's just a foil and a punchline.

[Lacuna Caster]

What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

Another relevant Giant quote:

To be blunt, having a plan doesn't justify much if the end result- or even intermediate segments- is something a reader finds boring, padded or artificial. I won't weigh in on every segment of the plot that might qualify- I'm sure it varies with the reader- but "I had reasons for X, leading to Y" gets you into a cost-benefit analysis about whether Y was worth the expense of X.

I'm afraid I tuned out of the main strip a while ago, so I can't comment very sensibly about the airship crew, but I did feel that a plot segment intended to develop Durkon can't actually develop Durkon when Durkon has no say in the proceedings, and that's (apparently) been going on for a while. If the purpose of all the bruhaha is to invest us in the characters, that doesn't seem an efficient approach.

[oppyu]

To the core question of the thread, yes The Giant is still trying to tell a story. That's never really been in question.

As for the criticisms, well, everyone has an opinion. People have been saying that arcs are filler and the story hasn't been moving fast enough for literally for real over a decade. Over that time, The Giant has continued to space out his arcs as he's seen fit and explained why he thinks the people who think he should stop messing around with side plot B and get on with things are missing the point. People have continued to have complaints regardless, such is the nature of subjectivity.

My take is that I've consistently enjoyed OOTS through the arcs, whether they've been about fighting the big bad to protect the plot bauble, or going shopping. I like the characters and I like spending time with them, and while I do wish the story would progress it's a "I am engaged and this is suspenseful I want to know what will happen" wish, not a "this sucks get the plot bauble already" wish. Also Bandana and the Mechane are cool and I've enjoyed this leadership storyline.

Another note, these feel differently paced when read in book form. The lack of a regular update schedule probably contributes to the sentiment that the story should move faster.

[Emperor Demonking]

And what makes you so certain that this will remain true? The plot is to a large extent planned quite far in advance. All of this could be essential setup for things that will become important later. And in the mean time, this story is more about characters than about saving the world. And Bandana and Andi are characters in the story that have presently important roles.

Or, to quote The Giant:

Is not the obvious rebuttal to that is that even if Andi - justly chastised for her Miko-like awfulness - is an important character in saving the world. That she still isn't part of the Order of The Stick and that (to also quote The Giant): The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World.

The punchline in the last comic is that the order literally knows nothing of the main story of the last pages.

[eggynack]

This kind of criticism, that what's going on right now doesn't matter, seems so odd to me, mainly because there are pretty clear ways for it to matter. Like, Andi just mutinied, and had the mutiny turned aside, with the team in roughly the situation they were in at the start. They lost their guns, of course, and that could easily prove vital, but that's like any other weapon-ish thing based plot. The team is going to win or lose fights due to broader plot reasons, and the specific weaponry available is only relevant insofar as it impacts the specific way they'll win or lose. The Order is split, and the sword is off the beaten path, and those things could be relevant, but again, we're in pretty low level conflict territory here. It could be massively impactful, but it's not all that thematically relevant, and it'd be weird for that to be a serious plot a second time. So, we're kinda returned to the status quo, everything calm after the big battle with maybe a few losses along the way.

Except, no matter what else happens, the situation is now inherently different. A person on the ship just committed a mutiny, and while they were in an all hands on deck situation before, they're not in as much of one now. What do they even do about that? Bandanna could kill her, or she could toss her, which would be pretty similar to killing her in these crazy mountains, or she could toss her in a brig, or, and here's the most likely outcome, she could keep Andi on board, to do Andi things. Because they need an engineer, even if it's one who might have just revealed themselves as evil.

If you haven't noticed yet, that's ridiculously similar to what's already going on in the main plot. The Order kept Durkon around even after everyone knew he was evil, partially out of loyalty to the person they knew/thought they knew, and partially because they're trying to save the world and they could really use someone to fix things when monsters attack. But Roy just lived through that situation, so does he force Bandanna to take one of the paths where Andi doesn't stay on board? Does he never find out, creating a microcosm of the main plot? Does he make the same mistake a second time? Is he the only one to support Bandanna when she decides to take a less friendly path? And how does Andi react to all this stuff?

So now we got all this great plot stuff. We have parallelism and thus thematic resonance with the A-plot, we have a serious and emotional issue that more directly involves the Order, and we get some seriously interesting suspense and tension. Hell, we might even get some real insight into the A-plot. By which I mean, we could learn that there's a big difference between having Belkar on your team and having Durkula or Andi on your team, because the problem with the latter two characters wasn't precisely that they were evil. Said difference being, Belkar is actually somewhat loyal to the team, whatever his devotion to mayhem, and he has been for awhile, before even the Shojo dream thing. That counts for a lot, and it's a quality that we never really had the opportunity to ascribe to either Durkula or Andi. This is a pirate crew. Being a little evil might just be part of the job. But turning on your captain when their back is facing you, that's a serious problem.

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically unnecessary strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

[SilverCacaobean]

-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

Rich has said all he's ever going to say about the update schedule and it's not up for conversation. At the very best threads about it would be pointless complaining. At worst very stressful for the creator. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that stress is for the weak or something and he should grow thicker skin, but that's an easy thing to say when you've created nothing in your entire life. I've yet to hear a creator say that stress is not an issue. Besides, you can talk about it as much as you like, just not here. Is that too much to ask?

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

I'm not sure why giving someone money for their work makes some people so entitled. If you think anyone is annoyed because you dislike the direction the work has taken and not because of your tone, you're mistaken. Paid or no, don't have that tone. Besides, when you pay for something OotS, you pay for a complete book, nothing else. You don't pay to get a faster update schedule, or a say in what the next book will be, or to suddenly have a right to be boorish. That's also a very interesting use of the word freemium, a word which is usually reserved for applications that have lite versions for free and usually force you to buy if you want full functionality. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the story is perfectly coherent without buying anything, calling it freemium is stretching it.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

Posting examples is irrelevant? Are you serious? Posting examples is the whole point of a conversation like this. So what if some people agree with you? Are you trying to start a conversation here, or gather a mob of dissatisfied people for whatever purpose? I mean the Giant has explicitly denied his pledges influence story quality and I have no reason to believe he'd compromise the quality of his art for this, since he doesn't even have an update schedule. What would be the point? As far as I know the only thing that has suffered because of the kickstarter pledges is the updates and you didn't try to make a case for the opposite, just let us know that some people agree with you. As you know, the truth isn't impacted by what people agree on.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

Just keep in mind that venting in public places can have a negative impact on the one you're venting about. Besides, why vent, instead of expanding on your frustration. What kind of conversation are you expecting if you just vent?

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important?

The words "need" and "important" can't be used in a vacuum. There needs to be a purpose for them to have any meaning. Why didn't it need to be done? Important for what? By the way, since the Godsmoot ended, we've learned that Lien and O-Chul reached Xykon, that Xykon has allied himself with a bugbear village, that Xykon is already trying to reach the last gate, we got an idea of the gate's defences, we saw the MitD trying to sabotage team evil's efforts, we started calling the vampire "Greg" and we know Thrym wants the world to end enough that he ordered his frost giants to halt the Order's progress. Oh, there was also a mutiny and Roy dropped his sword. Are any of these events important to you?

I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion.

Your opinion is wrong. This is the penultimate book.

What I see happening feels more like FILLER.

People who say this word have something in common with people who say "Deus ex machina"; They have no idea what the words mean.

Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

Since the beginning of the strip, every other book is decidedly NOT about Xykon. That's half the story. And the one you call the "Main story" is the other half. Since you only care about half the story I have to tell you this is going to be one of the "other" books. This story won't be about Xykon, it will be about Durkon and Greg. And since when do more obstacles throw off suspense?

ogre plot

Riiiight.

EDIT:

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically immediate strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

+1