Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[Lacuna Caster]

Rich has said all he's ever going to say about the update schedule and it's not up for conversation. At the very best threads about it would be pointless complaining. At worst very stressful for the creator. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that stress is for the weak or something and he should grow thicker skin, but that's an easy thing to say when you've created nothing in your entire life...

Hang on a second. You don't know the first thing about what the OP has or hasn't created. That's uncalled for.

Secondly, I would say that anyone, for any reason, is perfectly entitled to criticise a work, regardless of whether it's free or paid for, regardless of whether they like or loathe any or all parts of it. The only criterion that should apply is the cogency of the argument, and whether it's redundant or not.

I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

Eh, Nale's introduction arguably had a payoff in the sense that he finally got 2 pages of dramatic development 800 strips later, but that's a pretty lousy return on investment.

[eggynack]

Eh, Nale's introduction arguably had a payoff in the sense that he finally got 2 pages of dramatic development 800 strips later, but that's a pretty lousy return on investment.

Not sure if you're joking. Nale has had massive and obvious impact on the plot, and had thematic connection to tons of stuff in the story, up to and including acting as the main antagonist in like two separate books. You may or may not like him, but his existence has had story payoffs in a million different ways.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not sure if you're joking. Nale has had massive and obvious impact on the plot, and had thematic connection to tons of stuff in the story, up to and including acting as the main antagonist in like two separate books. You may or may not like him, but his existence has had story payoffs in a million different ways.

Of course he's had impact on the plot, because large portions of the plot consisted of Nale doing stuff. It's tautological.

But arguing that he was intrinsically necessary to various other events is a bit of a hollow argument. There could have been other ways to engineer the same events, or maybe those events weren't all that intrinsically important- I don't know, I'm not a professional writer. But I suspect that writers exist which would pull it off.

.

[eggynack]

Of course he's had impact on the plot, because large portions of the plot consisted of Nale doing stuff. It's tautological.

But arguing that he was intrinsically necessary to various events is a bit of a hollow argument. There could have been other ways to engineer the same events, or maybe those events weren't all that intrinsically important- I don't if know, I'm not a professional writer. But I suspects that writers exist which would pull it off.

To say there could be other ways to engineer the same events is equally hollow, as arguments go. But Nale is more than a plot device. He acts as a direct foil for all kinds of characters. And, once you're at, "He's a foil to these specific characters in these specific ways," territory, it's hard to say that a different character could plausibly fill the same role. What happened in the latest book was especially Nale reliant, and not just in the form of a couple of strips, because his interactions and relationship with Tarquin defined a lot of how we understand Tarquin.

[SilverCacaobean]

Hang on a second. You don't know the first thing about what the OP has or hasn't created. That's uncalled for.

Secondly, I would say that anyone, for any reason, is perfectly entitled to criticise a work, regardless of whether it's free or paid for, regardless of whether they like or loathe any or all parts of it. The only criterion that should apply is the cogency of the argument, and whether it's redundant or not.

I said that my experience is that I have seen no creator claim that stress isn't an issue. Even if I myself wouldn't get stressed by schedule threads, if Rich does, it's a very valid reason to ban these discussions. Creation needs focus and judging by when Rich answers one of these threads, they distract him, so they're out. The you in the sentence you quoted is a general you, not directed at ATrueFan. Though, since we got here, I really doubt they're a creator.

Critisism is judgement and there was not judgement of the work on the first post, just complaining. With the second post I disagree with for the reasons I outlined. Criticism can be criticised too.

[Emperor Demonking]

This kind of criticism, that what's going on right now doesn't matter, seems so odd to me, mainly because there are pretty clear ways for it to matter. Like, Andi just mutinied, and had the mutiny turned aside, with the team in roughly the situation they were in at the start. They lost their guns, of course, and that could easily prove vital, but that's like any other weapon-ish thing based plot. The team is going to win or lose fights due to broader plot reasons, and the specific weaponry available is only relevant insofar as it impacts the specific way they'll win or lose. The Order is split, and the sword is off the beaten path, and those things could be relevant, but again, we're in pretty low level conflict territory here. It could be massively impactful, but it's not all that thematically relevant, and it'd be weird for that to be a serious plot a second time. So, we're kinda returned to the status quo, everything calm after the big battle with maybe a few losses along the way.

Except, no matter what else happens, the situation is now inherently different. A person on the ship just committed a mutiny, and while they were in an all hands on deck situation before, they're not in as much of one now. What do they even do about that? Bandanna could kill her, or she could toss her, which would be pretty similar to killing her in these crazy mountains, or she could toss her in a brig, or, and here's the most likely outcome, she could keep Andi on board, to do Andi things. Because they need an engineer, even if it's one who might have just revealed themselves as evil.

If you haven't noticed yet, that's ridiculously similar to what's already going on in the main plot. The Order kept Durkon around even after everyone knew he was evil, partially out of loyalty to the person they knew/thought they knew, and partially because they're trying to save the world and they could really use someone to fix things when monsters attack. But Roy just lived through that situation, so does he force Bandanna to take one of the paths where Andi doesn't stay on board? Does he never find out, creating a microcosm of the main plot? Does he make the same mistake a second time? Is he the only one to support Bandanna when she decides to take a less friendly path? And how does Andi react to all this stuff?

So now we got all this great plot stuff. We have parallelism and thus thematic resonance with the A-plot, we have a serious and emotional issue that more directly involves the Order, and we get some seriously interesting suspense and tension. Hell, we might even get some real insight into the A-plot. By which I mean, we could learn that there's a big difference between having Belkar on your team and having Durkula or Andi on your team, because the problem with the latter two characters wasn't precisely that they were evil. Said difference being, Belkar is actually somewhat loyal to the team, whatever his devotion to mayhem, and he has been for awhile, before even the Shojo dream thing. That counts for a lot, and it's a quality that we never really had the opportunity to ascribe to either Durkula or Andi. This is a pirate crew. Being a little evil might just be part of the job. But turning on your captain when their back is facing you, that's a serious problem.

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically unnecessary strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

Smacking somebody with power over you who had just finished screaming a sarcastic jab at you after possibly leading you to your near death does not possibly qualify as evil. Going down deck to save the engines even though the personal consequences to you could be worse that death (disgrace then death) is possibly good.

Although, the cleric-engineer thing is cute. I don't think Durkula and Andi really work.

(The 'back is facing you' is - I think - literally wrong, btw, although she was looking the other way.)

[Kish]

Ah, so there are still people willing to stretch to defend Andi's actions on this board. I wondered if they'd all disappeared entirely.

Lacuna, no one here needs to justify Nale's inclusion in the comic--you need to make an actual case, rather than a dismissive quip, that he has no value to the comic, if you want such to be taken seriously, because Rich's target audience is more invested in Elan's family struggles and growth as a result of them than you apparently are.

[Lacuna Caster]

To say there could be other ways to engineer the same events is equally hollow, as arguments go. But Nale is more than a plot device. He acts as a direct foil for all kinds of characters. And, once you're at, "He's a foil to these specific characters in these specific ways," territory, it's hard to say that a different character could plausibly fill the same role.

Yeah, but... that's like saying "the jigsaw maker had to cut this shape for this piece, or it wouldn't fit with all the other pieces"... when the jigsaw maker decided the shape of all the other pieces it had to fit with in the first place. It's a variant of the thermian argument, and I ultimately don't care about how the pieces fit. I care about the picture on the box.

If we assume, for example, that Nale's involvement was, somehow, 100% necessary for positioning Haley to be heroically rescued by Elan at a critical moment when she was maximally vulnerable, can we pause to reflect on how the strip's main female protagonist is thus rendered wholly dependant on a man's emotional validation? To the extent that he can immediately cure serious neurological dysfunctions?

I can allow that his relationship to Tarquin comes up a fair bit, but does he need to be a mono-dimensional moustache-twirling churl driven by the flimsiest of grudges for hundreds of strips beforehand in order for that to work? I realise that a Nale who doesn't match that description is effectively a different character with the same name, but I also don't see a problem with that.

[eggynack]

Smacking somebody with power over you who had just finished screaming a sarcastic jab at you after possibly leading you to your near death does not possibly qualify as evil. Going down deck to save the engines even though the personal consequences to you could be worse that death (disgrace then death) is possibly good.

I'm going to start with the overriding textual thing here, rather than my direct super disagreement. That being, whether your opinion on this is a reasonable one or not, the narrative itself seems to think Andi did a really awful thing. I don't know if evil is necessarily the word to use, but seriously seriously bad is fitting. Given that the text agrees with me, and it does in a number of places, the connections and such I'm discussing could easily come to pass, whether you agree with the premise or not.

Moreover, the situation with Andi does not have to be the same as the one with Durkula for parallelism to exist. In fact, the situation shouldn't be the same at all. Contrasts with the central situation should ideally throw said situation into a harsh relief, such that we learn new things instead of relearning the old. Recall, after all, that the Ian conflict was super different from the one with Tarquin. Ian was pushing Haley and Elan into these boxes, but he wasn't willing to go to nearly the same lengths to enforce those boxes, he genuinely felt sorry for the way he raised Haley, and he was ultimately willing to accept a plan from Elan, showing the capacity to change. This story could end with Andi fully redeemed, and still have a ton of thematic connection to the main plot. There's a ton of directions this subplot could go that aren't all that close to what we'd expect out of the Durkula plot, and it could still support that main plot.

That all being said, you're wrong, at least to the extent that you seem to be justifying what Andi did. If you're just literally quarreling with the use of the term evil, on a, "Wow, that's a really loaded term right there, especially in a world where evil has this supernatural element to it," I guess that's fine, but I don't think that's where you're going. Anyway, Andi didn't just spontaneously hit Bandanna with a wrench. She waited a second to do it, and then she tied Bandanna up instead of setting it up so that Bandanna could take over the ship afterwards, and then she gave some really really awful reasons for doing all that, and didn't untie her. You can say that Andi didn't mean for the wrench hit to represent a mutiny, but literally everything she did after that point supported its nature as a mutiny. Bandanna was correct in her ship based decision making at basically every step as well, as we saw when Andi attempted one of her alternate plans.

And, as I pointed out in my post, it's not all about evil, or badness. It's about disloyalty, to some extent. Durkula is evil, sure, but that in itself wasn't exactly the issue. As Durkula himself pointed out way back when, evil people like the world too. The problem is that Durkula was loyal to Hel rather than Roy, and had his own agenda. Belkar isn't really loyal to non-Roy entities, and his agenda was incredibly limited in scope up until it became actively positive. Andi, like Durkula, seeks power and doesn't want to be subordinate to someone she sees as inferior, above and beyond her desire for the world to exist, or for the best possible outcomes to occur regarding the ship. Her entire justification for her decision making is that she's the one making the decisions. It has no basis in any kind of external reality.

And no, working on the ship is not evidence of Andi being good to any extent. Up to that point, she probably thought she was going to literally get thrown off the ship, and attacking the captain when she's both facing you directly and surrounded by people that know your ideas are dumb is ridiculously stupid. At best, this is evidence that Andi is capable of being marginally rational, because her best hope of survival lies in whatever Bandanna's plan is, and in not pissing her captain off. What do you expect her to do? Not help while they're surrounded by mountains and under attack? Hit Bandanna in the head again? I wouldn't put these things past Andi, but that is only because I have a ridiculously low opinion of her.

(The 'back is facing you' is - I think - literally wrong, btw, although she was looking the other way.)

I guess? She's kinda turned away wholly when the wrench hit her, though that could be momentum. There's a heavy idiomatic element to the phrase as well, though, "With her back turned," might have made the meaning more clear.

[Leirus]

A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

7.

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

8. I just want this comic to succeed in the best way possible.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.


-ATrueFan

Look the quality of the story has not changed. I could be argued that the nature of the story has, becoming more coral as it grows and more people becomes involved in saving the world. I will tell you, one of my favourite strips is #550, where the friendship between O´Chul and the MitD starts. ¿Did they matter to the story back then?. You could say no at the moment, but they ended up being essential: the Monster saved V, and he is currently delaying Xykon. This story is bigger than you seem to think. I for one would like to know what is going on with Haley's dad and his merry rebel group, because if the ending ends up somehow becoming an epic planet-wide battle with the Order at its center I feel they could be relevant, with that rift in the desert at all.

I feel that your complaints steam actually for two points, the pace and a misconception that they were heading towards Xykon.

You could be forgiven for the second one, as the Oots was desperately trying to reach the Gate before the Godsmoot, but we have since been shown that Xykon has been delayed (by secondary characters, I may stress) and the most pressing menace right now are the gods themselves, not Xykon. If they do not stop vampire Durkon, Xykon will be obliterated along everyone else.

The slower pace a little while ago may have made you impatient, but your argument is quite weak. The order is not "Freemium". The whole story is in the free strips, the rest are more work from the same author, but in no way necessary. You can get the Lord of the Rings for free, but you are paying the Silmarillion. And even if one were to accept that paying for the peripheral books gives you some right about the Oots, would that same principle not apply to the kickstarter backers that literally payed for the main story? In your own view, their rights should triumph yours.

And the problem here is your tone. I have been reading this strip for more years than I care to admit, and the "is even trying" is really, really grating and gratuitously rude. Specially after the author coming out to say that the pace was slower for a while because he had to complete the kickstarter promises. Vent your frustration in more creative ways.

[eggynack]

Yeah, but... that's like saying "the jigsaw maker had to cut this shape for this piece, or it wouldn't fit with all the other pieces"... when the jigsaw maker decided the shape of all the other pieces it had to fit with in the first place. It's a variant of the thermian argument, and I ultimately don't care about how the pieces fit. I care about the picture on the box.

But now you're saying that we should change the entire story and the characters within it to suit the loss of Nale, in a sense. That kinda proves his relevance to the story in itself, I think. I mean, the story doesn't need Xykon or Redcloak to be around, y'know? We could just change a ton of stuff about the story, character motivations, theming, plotlines, and just pull him out.

If we assume, for example, that Nale's involvement was, somehow, 100% necessary for positioning Haley to be heroically rescued by Elan at a critical moment when she was maximally vulnerable, can we pause to reflect on how the strip's main female protagonist is thus rendered wholly dependant on a man's emotional validation? To the extent that he can immediately cure serious neurological dysfunctions?

That's not really all Nale was there for. His relationship with Haley was being contrasted with that between Elan and Haley, and his position within the party had some of that to it as well. It's not like he was attacking Haley for all that long either. He spent a lot of time getting Elan imprisoned, a lot of time blending in, and then very little time setting Haley up to be rescued. The way you characterize the plot in general is weird as well. Haley isn't dependent on Elan's emotional validation at all. Elan could have turned her down and Haley still would have been fine. Haley was saved primarily by her exerting her agency, breaking her pattern of not trusting folks by telling the truth. Elan didn't do anything to cure her, aside from literally be present. I'm actually kinda curious about whether she would have been cured by confessing to Nale, making Elan's presence wholly unnecessary. It's a possibility. Elan coming to Haley's rescue represented his own developmental arc, a journey simultaneously towards effectiveness and control over the narrative. His arc doesn't diminish Haley's though, especially because Haley's arc is way more central and important, at least in terms of stuff that had lead up to it. In a sense, that sequence was actually the beginning of Elan's arc that was maybe concluded with the Tarquin conflict, while it was in the middle of Haley's trust/internal conflict arc that started somewhere between the end of the inn sequence and her meeting the doctor.

I can allow that his relationship to Tarquin comes up a fair bit, but does he need to be a mono-dimensional moustache-twirling churl driven by the flimsiest of grudges for hundreds of strips beforehand in order for that to work? I realise that a Nale who doesn't match that description is effectively a different character with the same name, but I also don't see a problem with that.

I just don't see Nale as nearly this one dimensional. Mostly because I can name all kinds of other dimensions. Pride, love of complexity, super close relationship with his team, a single-minded focus, need to be the center of attention, actually pretty great plan creation, and others. If you read Rich's comments on the subject in Blood Runs in the Family, you'll find that Tarquin was developed particularly in terms of the way he could generate Nale's existence, as much as he was in terms of Elan's narrative control stuff. Nale isn't quite at Redcloak levels, but he's a complex and well developed character in his own right.

[Lacuna Caster]

But now you're saying that we should change the entire story and the characters within it to suit the loss of Nale, in a sense. That kinda proves his relevance to the story in itself, I think.

Yes, but it's not an argument in favour of the story either. A story which is integrally dependent on the involvement of a character I consider to be painfully tired and cliché is probably a suboptimal story unless you can prove that the payoff is outstanding. I don't think the payoff was, and I question how integral Nale-as-defined was to those outcomes.

Haley isn't dependent on Elan's emotional validation at all. Elan could have turned her down and Haley still would have been fine.

You've got to be kidding me. Whatever you think of Elan's arc in itself, he's been fairly consistently portrayed as the linchpin of Haley's development since before the Inn scene.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Nale as being well or realistically developed. I think he's essentially a walking rube goldberg device and made about as much sense.

[Emperor Demonking]

I'm going to start with the overriding textual thing here, rather than my direct super disagreement. That being, whether your opinion on this is a reasonable one or not, the narrative itself seems to think Andi did a really awful thing. I don't know if evil is necessarily the word to use, but seriously seriously bad is fitting. Given that the text agrees with me, and it does in a number of places, the connections and such I'm discussing could easily come to pass, whether you agree with the premise or not.

The second-from-last panel in the most recent strip has Bandanna forgiving the mutineers. Noticably, it is not Andi alone looking downcasted and chastened but two others. Obviously, Andi is uniquely worse, but the most recent string does not seem to be agreeing with you that she is uniquely bad. But that if Andi is rotten then so are those other two (which destroys the parralell).

Moreover, the situation with Andi does not have to be the same as the one with Durkula for parallelism to exist. In fact, the situation shouldn't be the same at all. Contrasts with the central situation should ideally throw said situation into a harsh relief, such that we learn new things instead of relearning the old. Recall, after all, that the Ian conflict was super different from the one with Tarquin. Ian was pushing Haley and Elan into these boxes, but he wasn't willing to go to nearly the same lengths to enforce those boxes, he genuinely felt sorry for the way he raised Haley, and he was ultimately willing to accept a plan from Elan, showing the capacity to change. This story could end with Andi fully redeemed, and still have a ton of thematic connection to the main plot. There's a ton of directions this subplot could go that aren't all that close to what we'd expect out of the Durkula plot, and it could still support that main plot.

If andi is rdeemed (or if she isn't) what is it that you think we will learn about Durkula. I've sincerely thought about it a little and can't think of anything. So I'm curious what it is. If they make it there on time, it is because Andi didn't say seeya when Julio passed so, 'accepting durkula was a good idea, just dodgy luck that it nearly ended the world?'

Spoiler: Off-topic

Show

That all being said, you're wrong, at least to the extent that you seem to be justifying what Andi did. If you're just literally quarreling with the use of the term evil, on a, "Wow, that's a really loaded term right there, especially in a world where evil has this supernatural element to it," I guess that's fine, but I don't think that's where you're going. Anyway, Andi didn't just spontaneously hit Bandanna with a wrench. She waited a second to do it, and then she tied Bandanna up instead of setting it up so that Bandanna could take over the ship afterwards, and then she gave some really really awful reasons for doing all that, and didn't untie her. You can say that Andi didn't mean for the wrench hit to represent a mutiny, but literally everything she did after that point supported its nature as a mutiny. Bandanna was correct in her ship based decision making at basically every step as well, as we saw when Andi attempted one of her alternate plans.

Her biggest ship-based plan was deciding to prioritise venting her frustration of a scared underling over giving instructions on which of the numerous things she lead to breaking to fix first. Any failed plans of Andi follow from that descision of Bandanna.

I don't think 'wait' is justified by the comic. We've got her still with anger in one panel - I would suggest because of Bandanna's actions in the previous one - and in the very next panel she's striking with the wrench. There's no room for her anger to subside and to then choose to wait.

The crew obviously needed leadership while Bandanna was busy being unconscious. And even when complaining about the mutiny, Carol didn't disagree with Andi's statement that leaving her untied would have her flop around get hurt.

The hitting with the wrench did represent mutiny - they could not go with being unlead at such a time - but even those strongly opposed to a mutiny could disagree with the thrust of her making descisions once the mutiny had been made.

And, as I pointed out in my post, it's not all about evil, or badness. It's about disloyalty, to some extent. Durkula is evil, sure, but that in itself wasn't exactly the issue. As Durkula himself pointed out way back when, evil people like the world too. The problem is that Durkula was loyal to Hel rather than Roy, and had his own agenda. Belkar isn't really loyal to non-Roy entities, and his agenda was incredibly limited in scope up until it became actively positive. Andi, like Durkula, seeks power and doesn't want to be subordinate to someone she sees as inferior, above and beyond her desire for the world to exist, or for the best possible outcomes to occur regarding the ship. Her entire justification for her decision making is that she's the one making the decisions. It has no basis in any kind of external reality.

The reason why Bandanna is making different - and successful - descisions from Andi is that Rich gave her secret and necessary information to save the day. You can't deduce that her descision-making methods are unhinged just because the descisions she made were worse since she didn't have that secret knowledge.

And no, working on the ship is not evidence of Andi being good to any extent. Up to that point, she probably thought she was going to literally get thrown off the ship, and attacking the captain when she's both facing you directly and surrounded by people that know your ideas are dumb is ridiculously stupid. At best, this is evidence that Andi is capable of being marginally rational, because her best hope of survival lies in whatever Bandanna's plan is, and in not pissing her captain off. What do you expect her to do? Not help while they're surrounded by mountains and under attack? Hit Bandanna in the head again? I wouldn't put these things past Andi, but that is only because I have a ridiculously low opinion of her.

By working on the engine I was referring to when she was wearing both the captain's and engineer's hat. It was going to work on the engine that allowed Bandanna her monologue - a fact Bandanna herself states.

I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Durkula - a sign that something went wrong.

And as I said before it isn't just Andi who lacks loyalty to Bandanna comparable to the order to Roy its the whole crew. So I'm unsure what sort of thing you think could happen that will makes this all thematically satisfying.

[Vinyadan]

Meh. It's all very neutral to me. The comic quality is the same as always. The comic had a funny disjointed strip time, a plot time (the first attack on Xykon), another rather disjointed strip time preparing for the new arc, and then the Azure city arc and since then it's been very constant on the plot. In all of these times, the comic has been good. The only thing that imho fell flat was the "I had a girlfriend" thing by Bandana, because every time such relationship stuff has been brought up I can remember, it actually had a use within the plot/characters beyond "got new clothes". Like how parents are the source of drama, Celia's old boyfriend's behaviour is why Celia defends the Order in the trial, Cousin Sheila is a large afterthought about Elan and Haley's family, Tarquin's way with wives is proof of his evilness, Roy's first time is named to start his reflection about being back to life, V being married turning his image on its head...
Anyway, Bandana has now completed her introductory arc. She's now an interesting character, which will probably add to the comic enjoyment later.

So the only thing that has changed is WHAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED! Sure, more is better than less. But that's all there is to say.

[eggynack]

Yes, but it's not an argument in favour of the story either. A story which is integrally dependent on the involvement of a character I consider to be painfully tired and cliché is probably a suboptimal story unless you can prove that the payoff is outstanding. I don't think the payoff was, and I question how integral Nale-as-defined was to those outcomes.

So, literally your entire argument is, "I don't like Nale." Which is fine, I guess, but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Whatever you think of his character, he's obviously provided a ton of awesome payoffs, and the payoff is what you were contesting in the first place. He generated interesting plotlines (whether you liked the things Nale was directly doing or not), he had direct thematic purpose, he brought about character development, and he just generally had a ton of awesome and story useful payoff, much of it directly dependent on his nature as a character. You can think that all that great stuff is not worth having Nale or whatever, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a ton of great stuff, and said great stuff was the thing you were initially disputing.

Basically, if this Andi plotline has, like, a tenth of the awesome and interesting outcomes that Nale's plotlines have had, then that would be more than sufficient payoff to what's been going on.

You've got to be kidding me. Whatever you think of Elan's arc in itself, he's been fairly consistently portrayed as the linchpin of Haley's development since before the Inn scene.

Are we both talking about the same inn? I was talking about the one where she developed her aphasia, not the one where she lost it. Elan has been key to Haley's development in either case, but said development certainly wasn't given to her by Elan, and it didn't really represent a loss of agency on her part. All the choices were hers to make, and they were focused on problems that weren't precisely attached to Elan. Elan's role in Haley's development is, in this area, as a person she is willing to open up to, thus allowing her to open up to people that aren't him to some extent (particularly Roy).

[Kish]

I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Greg - a sign that something went wrong.

You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

[Emperor Demonking]

You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

I don't see how I was suggesting a 'noble rebellion'. Bandanna was giving orders because somebody had to and Bandanna - rendered unconscious after screaming sarcasm at the fearful engineer - was not doing so. Nor do I think that I making up the two chastened non-Andi crewmembers in the most recent strip.

[ericgrau]

Eh FWIW I still like it a lot. If you don't that's cool too.

When you go right to the comic site to complain about it you're going to stir up a bit of passion, have fun.

Unlike a movie it's hard to gauge how a webcomic is doing. It's hard to tell objectively if you're right or wrong about the quality (sure it's subjective, but the sum of opinions is an objective number). Especially since fans tend to be in the comic's forums. So any poll would be biased. But I mean it's free so I read the comic on a whim anyway, so it's no big deal to me. Well, actually I may pick up some more of the books at some point after reading it online but it's not like I need user reviews to decide that. It all depends whether or not I liked what I already read, have the free time, etc. so it's pretty easy to think about.

[Kish]

That's nice. If you ever feel like engaging, you know where to find me; for now, let me just take all the spin out of your latest post, so it's clear how you're suggesting a noble rebellion.

[Andi] was briefly giving orders, when repeatedly nagged to do so rather than gloat over her assault victim, because the rest of the crew repeatedly nagged her to do so, or at least confirm she wouldn't assault them for going a way she didn't like, and Bandana--knocked unconscious by a vicious assault from Andi after snapping at Andi to stop standing on deck objecting to all her decisions and try to do her job--was not doing so. Then she was giving orders because, while Bandana was conscious, she didn't want to untie her and preferred to gloat over her. Also, Bandana is clearly, and reasonably, displeased that she needed to prod anyone to untie her, though Andi remains the one who assaulted her and the only one who actively opposed her captaincy, and it would be dishonest to imply the others bear as much guilt as Andi.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks

Interesting claim. From what I remember, Andi defenders were "chased away" by their own predictions of how Andi would be proven right "in the next few comics" that, as comic passed and she kept bungling a job she was in no way fit for as "Bandana defenders" correctly predicted from the very start, turned into childish "she should've been proven right, because I like Andi better than Bandana".

I will not bundle you with, but cannot fail to remind you of, the separate Andi defenders whose entire argument was "Bandana is a lesbian, therefore she must be shown to be in the wrong about everything". Those were indeed chased out with pitchforks, for obvious reasons.

To be clear, I do not recall were you stepped into the discussion or what your individual arguments were, but if you chose to declare yourself a member of either of those two groups, you should not mischaracterise the position of those who were correct about Andi.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

So, literally your entire argument is, "I don't like Nale." Which is fine, I guess, but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Whatever you think of his character, he's obviously provided a ton of awesome payoffs, and the payoff is what you were contesting in the first place.

I don't think he has provided awesome payoffs, because I have mixed feelings about some of the payoffs themselves, and in cases where I do like the payoff I question that his specific character makeup was necessary to get there. If the only standard of evidence that is going to satisfy you is that I go off and write an alternate-version-1000-strip-OOTS sans Nale, and you judge it to be at least as awesome, then... that's not about to happen, but it's also not a reasonable bar to clear. (I could be a weaker writer and fail, or be a stronger writer and succeed, but aside from how I'm not going to do that it might only reflect on the strength of my writing and not the smartness of including Nale.)

Are we both talking about the same inn? I was talking about the one where she developed her aphasia, not the one where she lost it. Elan has been key to Haley's development in either case, but said development certainly wasn't given to her by Elan...

Of course it was. You just said it was key to her development. After the party splits, she's evidently paralysed with indecision because she worries about Elan being dead and does nothing terribly proactive until Celia prods her into leaving AC. Then she conspicuously fails to leave the party in order to ransom or rescue her dad, which was ostensibly the entire reason for her penny-pinching habits. (Well, she expends one potion of glibness that belonged to someone else, but yeah, that's the depth of her involvement.)

[Emperor Demonking]

That's nice. If you ever feel like engaging, you know where to find me; for now, let me just take all the spin out of your latest post, so it's clear how you're suggesting a noble rebellion.

Your taking the spin 'out' seems to be a lot longer than my post. Are you sure you're not simply putting a lot of spin in? For example, I'm pretty sure I didn't suggest that the crew members nagged or even asked Andi to give orders, just that orders needed to be given.

[Kish]

Yes, exactly. You omitted the fact that your heroine needed to be repeatedly nagged to give orders rather than either protesting that there was no clear answer and expecting Felix to make the problem go away, or standing over (the now-conscious, though your original version seemed to indicate she was unconscious throughout Andi's mutiny) Bandana and gloating: spin. If you consider any part of what I said inaccurate, rather than vaguely objecting to it being longer than your spun version, it would behoove you to say what you're contesting.

[SaintRidley]

You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

I would like to take a moment to reflect that, now that we've seen the O-Chul story, Girard's grievance makes a lot more sense. During his lifetime, he wasn't exactly wrong about the Sapphire Guard. During the time starting with DCF which we were familiar with is a different matter.

[Keltest]

I'm with Lacuna on the importance of Nale to the story. Until the very end, he served mostly as a vessel to physically move the characters from one place to another, and his relationship with the characters was largely unexplored and unchanging. The fact that he was Elan's brother went almost entirely forgotten save for the fact that it allowed for another avenue for Nale to move the party. You could replace him in the story with any number of other generic threats that forced a reaction and you would end up with the characters in much the same place until BRITF.

I don't agree about Haley though. Her relationship with Elan is important because it shines a spotlight on her own character growth, not because she's a shallow damsel in distress for Elan to save. She is moving away from the self-destructive mistrust that her father instilled in her, and her relationship with Elan is a symptom of that in the same way that her loyalty to the Order and its goals is.

[Kish]

Given that Girard showed up in one panel, slaughtering goblins without hesitation while he laughed about Kraagor's bar tab, I take leave to doubt the objections he had to the Sapphire Guard actually related to the Guard's real problems.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given that Girard showed up in one panel, slaughtering goblins without hesitation while he laughed about Kraagor's bar tab, I take leave to doubt the objections he had to the Sapphire Guard actually related to the Guard's real problems.

Where was that? (Not doubting it happened, to be clear, just can't remember it at all)

GW

[Keltest]

Where was that? (Not doubting it happened, to be clear, just can't remember it at all)

GW

Spoiler: SoD

Show

During redcloak's flashback about the origin of the Crimson Mantle. He mentions a group of adventurers beat up one of the former bearers, and it was the scribblers.

[eggynack]

The second-from-last panel in the most recent strip has Bandanna forgiving the mutineers. Noticably, it is not Andi alone looking downcasted and chastened but two others. Obviously, Andi is uniquely worse, but the most recent string does not seem to be agreeing with you that she is uniquely bad. But that if Andi is rotten then so are those other two (which destroys the parralell).

Some of the crew seem sorry for doing something way way way less bad than what Andi did. Andi, by contrast, doesn't seem like she feels bad at all for the way way way worse thing she did, only acting put down specifically when she was pushed into giving in. Feeling sorry for your actions does not make you bad. It has the inverse effect, because it means that you are identifying your own actions as wrong and are willing to change. Recall, Ian apologized. Tarquin never did, not really. Your metric would have Ian as the worse character.

If andi is rdeemed (or if she isn't) what is it that you think we will learn about Durkula. I've sincerely thought about it a little and can't think of anything. So I'm curious what it is. If they make it there on time, it is because Andi didn't say seeya when Julio passed so, 'accepting durkula was a good idea, just dodgy luck that it nearly ended the world?'

Depends on how it plays out. A lot of the development might land directly in the hands of the Order, in their reaction to it. Maybe it'll be super straightforward. "Not everyone is like this. Some people are deserving of your trust." Maybe it'll be, "You don't have to be an evil vampire subservient to a Goddess of death and despair to be a kinda crappy person." We don't have to learn a precise lesson here. We learn about how Durkula is precisely when we see all of the ways that Andi acted here, and then the way Durkula acts later, and have the ability to contrast them. If you can't identify a clear and useful distinction in the way they've acted, it's primarily because you haven't likely seen the full arc of either character. In the same way, we couldn't see the Ian/Tarquin connection as well in the moment as we can now.

Her biggest ship-based plan was deciding to prioritise venting her frustration of a scared underling over giving instructions on which of the numerous things she lead to breaking to fix first. Any failed plans of Andi follow from that descision of Bandanna.

Andi's job, unless stated otherwise, is to fix things that are broken. She knows best which things are broken, and which things are most necessary for the airship to run. That's why she's the engineer and Bandanna isn't, just like Bandanna is the leader and Andi isn't. You may notice that she was questioning leadership decisions on limited basis instead of fixing literally any of those things. She also obviously didn't ask what she should fix first.

The crew obviously needed leadership while Bandanna was busy being unconscious. And even when complaining about the mutiny, Carol didn't disagree with Andi's statement that leaving her untied would have her flop around get hurt.

And then Bandanna woke up, and Andi didn't untie her. At that exact moment, the flopping around thing became effectively a lie.

The hitting with the wrench did represent mutiny - they could not go with being unlead at such a time - but even those strongly opposed to a mutiny could disagree with the thrust of her making descisions once the mutiny had been made.

Their following her wasn't really a problem. They're in the middle of a crisis. It's not the time to be attacking people, or overthrowing order, even problematic order. You may take note now exactly what Andi did in this crisis situation.

The reason why Bandanna is making different - and successful - descisions from Andi is that Rich gave her secret and necessary information to save the day. You can't deduce that her descision-making methods are unhinged just because the descisions she made were worse since she didn't have that secret knowledge.

The decision that Andi overturned, right at the start of her mutiny, was based on knowledge that was explicitly given to her: "We'd have to eyeball our path the whole way, and there's no promise we could get through it all. We might end up in a dead end, hemmed in by mountains we can't fly over." Bandanna's eventual solution, which would have been unnecessary if Andi had just continued following Bandanna's plan, did rely on knowledge Andi didn't have. But Bandanna had that knowledge because she actually knows more about the topic of overall ship leadership, the very thing that Andi was baselessly questioning.

Imagine the inverse situation. Andi is making her repairs in a certain way. Bandanna goes over to her and says, "Nah, I know more than you about repairing engines. You should repair it like this." Then Bandanna clobbers Andi and takes over engineering. Would you really expect Bandanna to know everything necessary to do the engine repair? Would it be unfair if Andi has engine knowledge Bandanna doesn't have, because she's trained a ton regarding that exact issue? Of course not. It would be ridiculous for Bandanna to take over as engineer solely on the belief that Andi is doing her fixing stuff job in a way that Bandanna naively assumes is wrong, and we would never expect Bandanna to have all the knowledge regarding the ship's mechanical upkeep. In the same sense, Bandanna knows things about stuff the ship can do, and that's why she's captain. That's why you don't bonk her on the head, because maybe she actually happens to be good at her job.

And let's not forget some really basic things Andi never did, as captain. Ask, and listen. When people with expertise in what they were saying gave Andi information, she never listened to what they said. When she was trying to get over the mountains, she never asked, "Hey, is there anything we can do to ditch weight? Any ideas anyone has would be greatly appreciated." Keep in mind, this information wasn't only Bandanna accessible. People on her crew knew about the gun release capability. But Andi never asked, and Andi never listened, which are two things that made her an awful captain.

By working on the engine I was referring to when she was wearing both the captain's and engineer's hat. It was going to work on the engine that allowed Bandanna her monologue - a fact Bandanna herself states.

It's still not good. Again, working on the engines is only good to the extent it helps the crew, and to the same extent it helps the crew it also helps herself. It's "good" in the sense that it's the right thing to do. It's not good in the sense that it indicates she's a good person.

I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Durkula - a sign that something went wrong.

There are always people that support every character. It's not a writing problem. It's a fact of life. And people aren't hostile to Andi because she's bad or evil, exactly. They're hostile to her because she's being a frigging idiot, and folks tend to find that kinda thing frustrating.

And as I said before it isn't just Andi who lacks loyalty to Bandanna comparable to the order to Roy its the whole crew. So I'm unsure what sort of thing you think could happen that will makes this all thematically satisfying.

I've listed a ton of possibilities. An important question in the aftermath is whether Bandanna should get rid of Andi in some fashion. It's a question similar to the one Roy faced. That alone gives thematic connection.

Edit:

I don't think he has provided awesome payoffs, because I have mixed feelings about some of the payoffs themselves, and in cases where I do like the payoff I question that his specific character makeup was necessary to get there. If the only standard of evidence that is going to satisfy you is that I go off and write an alternate-version-1000-strip-OOTS sans Nale, and you judge it to be at least as awesome, then... that's not about to happen, but it's also not a reasonable bar to clear. (I could be a weaker writer and fail, or be a stronger writer and succeed, but aside from how I'm not going to do that it might only reflect on the strength of my writing and not the smartness of including Nale.)

Whatever standard of evidence I'd theoretically require, your current main evidence is simply not liking Nale, rather than anything all that high in order. Either way, I think we can agree that there were at least a bunch of payoffs, however you'd judge them. The core issue claimed with this sequence, broadly speaking, seems to be that it is in some fashion irrelevant. Whatever you think of Nale, he is not irrelevant.

Of course it was. You just said it was key to her development. After the party splits, she's evidently paralysed with indecision because she worries about Elan being dead and does nothing terribly proactive until Celia prods her into leaving AC. Then she conspicuously fails to leave the party in order to ransom or rescue her dad, which was ostensibly the entire reason for her penny-pinching habits. (Well, she expends one potion of glibness that belonged to someone else, but yeah, that's the depth of her involvement.)

She was paralyzed because she felt responsible for the Azure City resistance, and because she didn't know about the divination block. Her Elan worries are pretty strictly secondary. And Elan being key to her development doesn't mean said development wasn't largely internal or driven by her agency.

[Emperor Demonking]

Yes, exactly. You omitted the fact that your heroine needed to be repeatedly nagged to give orders: spin. If you consider any part of what I said inaccurate, rather than vaguely objecting to it being longer, it would behoove you to say what you're contesting.

She wasn't nagged. She gave orders before being asked. The order she was eventually asked about did take some time to make a descision, but that's not relevant to anything. Nobody is saying she's a super-great captain, the question is whether she is better than no captain.

It was not a "vicious assault". Her snapping could not have been based on Bandanna not doing her job as Bandanna only decided to tell her what job to do after screaming in her face. There is nothing in the comic that says that the displeasure comes from having to 'prod' to be untied. 'Prod' in not an accurate word for how she got herself untied. Nor did Andi gloat over Bandanna. (Although, again I acknowledge, a good captain would not have allowed Bandanna to lure her into a conversation).