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Thread: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
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2017-06-17, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Start of Darkness, page 43. I see I misremembered a little, actually; he's smiling but his mouth is closed (Dorukan is frowning and Soon isn't in the panel at all).
Nevertheless, I will be quite surprised if it turns out that Girard, or any member of the Order of the Scribble, thought much about "goblins=kill" during their time traveling together, or later came to think "I don't trust Soon because he treats goblin life too lightly."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-06-17, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Yes, but the claim here is that the airship sequence and Bandi/Andana are going to totes pay off big time in some fashion down the road. I have no opinion on the airship sequence either way, but it is at least possible that it won't.
She was paralyzed because she felt responsible for the Azure City resistance, and because she didn't know about the divination block. Her Elan worries are pretty strictly secondary. And Elan being key to her development doesn't mean said development wasn't largely internal or driven by her agency.
EDIT: ...Anyway. Whatever about the rest of Haley's arc, my point is that having Elan swoop in to rescue her from Nale is pretty nakedly damsel-in-distress territory. That doesn't automatically make it bad and awful, but I see no reason to celebrate it either.Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2017-06-17 at 10:37 AM.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-06-17, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-17, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
She had to be told 6 times to clarify an incomplete order, by increasingly shrill reminders. That is nagging. And it does not reflect well on her, whether you characterise it as a full order or a clarification.
This is clearly false. Helmsman had to ask for directions before she even bothered to look forward to see that her previous order was taking them towards a mountain.
False. It is central.
Which she obviously is not. Without a captain, the helmsman would've continued on the known path towards the exist. Her interference made everything significantly worse.
Punching someone in the nose is not a vicious assault. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a heavy wrench is vicious.
The head engineer of a ship should not need to be told to fix things during battle. Nor is it the engineer's place to spend her time in said battle bothering the captain.
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2017-06-17, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
She organized a resistance to Azure City's occupation and made strides to get Roy resurrected. She attempted to break her father out of jail as soon as she learned where he was. Even as far back as DCF, when she got separated she started slaughtering her own way to Xykon's throne room. She is a poor leader for the Order, but that doesn't mean that she can't operate on her own.
And since Haley's distress was mostly caused by her own character flaws rather than any actual threat from Nale, I don't think describing her as a Damsel in Distress is especially accurate either, though Elan certainly envisioned it that way.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-06-17, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Where did that happen in DCF?
My sense is that the AC resistance got organised largely by accident after Thanh and scruffy walked in at the right time, almost despite her involvement, and I tend to give Celia primary credit for Roy's return ticket.
And since Haley's distress was mostly caused by her own character flaws rather than any actual threat from Nale, I don't think describing her as a Damsel in Distress is especially accurate either, though Elan certainly envisioned it that way.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-06-17, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Andi seems just as contrite as the rest in the most recent comic. Am i reading her expression wrong?
Andi doesn't know Bandanna's secret plans and obviously doesn't know what part of the airship needs to be prioritised. I don't think she should be expected to need to say the magic words "what should I fix first?". They were not in a normal situation where she ought to be expected to simply guess herself - just as the steerer didn't when Andi was captain, however despite having more pressure being both captain and engineer Andi still chose not to scream in her face. Uncoincidentally, Andi remained conscious.
Although, Andi did not untie Bandanna when she awoke you're ignoring that 1) the accidental mutiny already happened 2) Bandanna did not know the current situation immediately on waking 3) Nobody else descided to untie her when Andi went away to fix the engines 4) Andi had other things to do of arguably greater importance
If andi had baited Bandanna into knocking her unconscious and then Bandanna ignored their lack of engineer. I would consider that a bad thing. I think on the basic become-captain fron Andi made the best of a bad situation (of Bandanna's creation, but that's a distraction around Bandanna's reaction)
I think the "People on her crew knew about the gun release capability" capacity is misleading. One person knew. And that was after being explicitly prompted by name.
Fixing the engine does not help her as much as it helps the crew since she struck the captain with a wrench.
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2017-06-17, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Starting Here.
Anyway, Thanh and Scruffy united the three factions, but Haley was the leader of one of the three, and the most open to cooperating with the others. Celia was, if anything, actively hampering efforts to resurrect Roy (I don't like her much, in case you were wondering), and Sabine was about to confront Nale, which would have blown his cover and allowed Haley to react.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-06-17, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I wholeheartedly agree.
And again, I agree. Taste is subjective, and people should always be allowed to criticize works for what they perceive as flaws, even if their criticisms seem utterly nonsensical to others.
Case in point.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2017-06-17, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Sure, the story could crumble into a pile of crap. Always a possibility. My point is that not only is that unlikely from a broader perspective, the standard inductive line of reasoning that dictates that things have pretty consistently paid off in the past so they're liable to continue paying off in the future (even if you may like or dislike various payoffs) it's especially unlikely in this specific context, because we can already identify some clear cut ways that it can pay off. For it to not pay off at all would almost require that they just kinda not address Andi's betrayal at all, because addressing said betrayal is itself a thematic connection.
The criticism of this arc is predicated on an unlikely future, and that makes no sense. I'm not saying, "This arc is amazing because it will definitely go in this way I'm describing, and that narrative path sounds cool to me." I'm saying that we can already see some evidence that it will go down an interesting path, and the claim that it's bad on this stated basis wouldn't even make sense in a vacuum.
...Anyway. Whatever about the rest of Haley's arc, my point is that having Elan swoop in to rescue her from Nale is pretty nakedly damsel-in-distress territory. That doesn't automatically make it bad and awful, but I see no reason to celebrate it either.
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2017-06-17, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
To address this for a moment, you cant prove a negative like "Nale hasn't been good for the story", so if you want complete proof one way or another, it pretty much has to come from you.
Besides that though, id like you to point out a few scenes before Blood Runs in the Family where you think Nale personally is integral to the way the scene played out, and where replacing him with some other, similar threat would result in the characters developing differently. The only one I can think of is the "Damsel in Distress" moment currently under the knife. That's... not a lot, considering how often he has appeared.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-06-17, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Not in Trogland
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I count two ("Which way...this mountain" in 64 and "ANDI!!!" in 65). Are you counting every single balloon?
This is clearly false. Helmsman had to ask for directions before she even bothered to look forward to see that her previous order was taking them towards a mountain.
False. It is central.
Which she obviously is not. Without a captain, the helmsman would've continued on the known path towards the exist. Her interference made everything significantly worse.
Punching someone in the nose is not a vicious assault. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a heavy wrench is vicious.
The head engineer of a ship should not need to be told to fix things during battle. Nor is it the engineer's place to spend her time in said battle bothering the captain.
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She may not have a right to know what the plan is, but surely she has a right to know her part in it. I have a hard time thinking that if Andi had gone down and fixed the gas when they needed the fins, that Andi-haters would be at all forgiving.
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2017-06-17, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Hmm. Maybe. She's not really striking off solo, since she got captured by an external party, but I guess she at least gets herself out of the jam.
Anyway, Thanh and Scruffy united the three factions, but Haley was the leader of one of the three, and the most open to cooperating with the others. Celia was, if anything, actively hampering efforts to resurrect Roy (I don't like her much, in case you were wondering), and Sabine was about to confront Nale, which would have blown his cover and allowed Haley to react.
Can someone link me to the actual Elan/Haley rescue scene?Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-06-17, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Other way round - Andi was the one engaged in unreasonable provocation - not doing her job + insults like "brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html
Bandanna responded not with violence but a sharply worded reminder that she was wasting time - which contained no insults.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html
"Anyone have any strong feelings which way?"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html
"Port or starboard?"
"I kinda need a decision here"
then "Andi!"
and "Which way?"
and then some more requests for Andi's decision in 1065.Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-17 at 11:04 AM.
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2017-06-17, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Bandanna was also not doing her job by repeatedly interacting with Andi but resolutely not telling her what to do.
Focusing on 'insults' is also rather comical. he didn't even insult her. All she did was scream in Andi's face that all their problems were down to her since if she wasn't moaning they'd be all fixed up.
Quick question, as this might point to a crucial difference of how we read the start of this saga, are the rest of you taking the "if you spent half.. two whole ships by the end of this pass" as an accurate statement of fact?
Edit: Plain didn't notice those small balloons in 64.Last edited by Emperor Demonking; 2017-06-17 at 11:08 AM.
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2017-06-17, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
So your definition of self-reliant requires that she leave the Order and pursue her personal goals alone? By that criterion, Vaarsuvius is the only self-reliant member of OotS.
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2017-06-17, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I don't see her ever having downcast contrition face in that comic. It looks like she always has wide eyed shock face. Her, "Yes, captain," face in the strip before arguably shows contrition, but I dunno that it makes sense to read it that way.
Andi doesn't know Bandanna's secret plans and obviously doesn't know what part of the airship needs to be prioritised. I don't think she should be expected to need to say the magic words "what should I fix first?". They were not in a normal situation where she ought to be expected to simply guess herself
- just as the steerer didn't when Andi was captain, however despite having more pressure being both captain and engineer Andi still chose not to scream in her face. Uncoincidentally, Andi remained conscious.
Although, Andi did not untie Bandanna when she awoke you're ignoring that 1) the accidental mutiny already happened 2) Bandanna did not know the current situation immediately on waking 3) Nobody else descided to untie her when Andi went away to fix the engines 4) Andi had other things to do of arguably greater importance
If andi had baited Bandanna into knocking her unconscious and then Bandanna ignored their lack of engineer. I would consider that a bad thing. I think on the basic become-captain fron Andi made the best of a bad situation (of Bandanna's creation, but that's a distraction around Bandanna's reaction)
I think the "People on her crew knew about the gun release capability" capacity is misleading. One person knew. And that was after being explicitly prompted by name.
Fixing the engine does not help her as much as it helps the crew since she struck the captain with a wrench.
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2017-06-17, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
...Yes, that's a fair definition. You can argue about the extent to which self-reliance is a good thing, but it does mean relying on self rather than others. (One could also cite some of Belkar's escapades, and a good deal of Celia and Miko's behaviour. Those characters are self-reliant.)
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-06-17, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
That makes sense. The assault on the soft spot of a person's head with an iron tool wasn't that bad because the person was looking away in order to do her job properly, after having told the assaulter to do their job properly instead of uselessly standing around throwing out insults.
EDIT:
"Now get off my back and see if you can get on of those control fins unstuck or something."
And again, interesting how the assault is less severe just because the assaulter believed the victim was underperforming at her day job.Last edited by Cizak; 2017-06-17 at 11:22 AM.
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2017-06-17, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
One of the main elements of Nale's character is the fact that he tends to command really high levels of team loyalty, and how they're really well organized. The degree of plan complexity is also pretty important, especially for the way it ties into his pride. His particular presence was thus rather important for the whole Cliffport sequence and setup, going a long way to justify a single act, switching with Elan and having Elan in prison, preceded by a plan that covers large swaths of the city and like three or four different sub-plans. Everything about him was the linchpin to everything that went on there. And we must always keep in mind the way his tendency towards intense dramatics plays against Elan's tendency towards narrative structure. They're kinda the same in this way, with few other characters out there liable to design their team thematically.
That's really most of his presence before BRitF. He has a couple of obvious moments in DCF, but everything else is setup for that one big scheme, or in that newest book. So, he seems rather vital for much of his presence. A totally different character wouldn't likely compliment the nature of Elan and Roy alike as he does, or have their role in the team structure quite so connected.
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2017-06-17, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Andi left her post in strip 1055:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html
and again in 1057:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html
she should have been repairing, not trying to give Bandanna instructions, or complaining about the Order. It took Bandanna a long time to tell her what to (go back to her post) - but she was kinda busy.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2017-06-17, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
And when she specifically told Andi what to do, the person now charging her with not telling Andi what to do prior to that claimed that as a justification for the following vicious assault (which made it somehow not a vicious assault). This looks like a textbook example of "not arguing in good faith" to me; it's downright ludicrous to suggest a problem with Rich's writing is demonstrated by his failure to convince someone this determined not to be convinced.
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2017-06-17, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
That panel simply does not show someone being 'told' someone. It shows someone being screamed at. That's not ambigious.
"Now get off my back and see if you can get on of those control fins unstuck or something."
And again, interesting how the assault is less severe just because the assaulter believed the victim was underperforming at her day job.
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2017-06-17, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Bandanna was doing her job. She was coordinating the efforts of an entire crew full of people to get them through the pass as painlessly as possible. Her job isn't spending strip after strip babysitting Andi. And it's not just Andi not doing her job that's a problem. It's her not doing her job and berating Bandanna about the job she's doing.
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2017-06-17, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
What's "disgusting" about it? It's hyperbole - but it's a reasonable thing to say in the circumstances after multiple instances of Andi talking instead of working.
Bandanna is patient - but even a patient person can have their patience tested to the point of breaking.Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-17 at 11:39 AM.
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2017-06-17, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Staying in her post while everything was goind down is not what you want your cheif engineer to do. You want her to tell you and to get your priorities. (I have a hard time beleiving that if the ship went down because Andi was repairing this, and she should have been preparing that, that the Andi-haters would be at all forgiving)
she should have been repairing, not trying to give Bandanna instructions, or complaining about the Order. It took Bandanna a long time to tell her what to (go back to her post) - but she was kinda busy.
Kish: If I was the only person not to be convinced I'd agree that you had a point, but I wasn't. She also didn't actually tell her to do unti after - or (if you count the first ballon, which Band presumably didn't as she went on to give actual orders) while - goading her into a blind rage.
The real question is why none of you are willing to answer whether you taking Bandana's attack on Andi as being an accurate statement of fact.
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2017-06-17, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Those traits seem largely told rather than shown to me (except for the unnecessarily complicated planning). Thog and Sabine are personally loyal to him, but Z's motives are never expanded on, and most of the rest of the Linear Guild members outright abandon Nale once they no longer have a personal stake in the group's success.
Which is beside the point, because I'm not contesting that he isn't a complete character. I would venture that the length of the buildup for getting Nale in position by Haley is largely unnecessary, by virtue of Nale's plans being unnecessarily complicated, and that while it is consistent with his characterization, it is also very low on the story-to-number-of-strips ratio.Last edited by Keltest; 2017-06-17 at 11:42 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-06-17, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Being screamed at after electing to stand around insulting her superior instead of doing her designated job. But sure, you go ahead and just try to desperately squeeze out any justification for assault. It's pretty disgusting, though.
Is what Bandanna could have said before or instead of her disgusting jab about that if she spent half..etc. but she instead chose not to. Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.
If Andi not doing her day job is provocation then so is Bandanna not foing hers. I never said either was.Last edited by Cizak; 2017-06-17 at 11:43 AM.
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2017-06-17, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-17, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Hey, check it out. Bandana doing her job. And again (bonus: also Andi not doing hers).
Do you wish to contend that that Bandana must be issuing constant orders to be doing her job?Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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