OOTS #1076 - The Discussion Thread

[Xyril]

The pirate sword analogy is ridiculous. We've seen the pirates many times, and we've seen them armed with swords. Of course there could be one with a sword. He was even hiding out after Roy said "Stay back, I'll handle this," so his position made sense.

At this point, I'm beginning to have doubts about the sincerity of your position, so I'll just leave this part alone.

It should have been a pretty tough shot for a boulder to land on the deck. Most, if not all, seemed to be hitting the bottom and sides of the ship. A higher trajectory would be more likely to hit the balloon than the deck.

It's funny, you complained about the link I posted, stating that only a few of them had a trajectory that took them above the deck of the ship--and then you make the completely self-contradictory assertion that "Most, if not all, seemed to be hitting the bottom and sides of the ship." It's not all--you already admitted this.

Perspective can be tricky, but from the wide shots I saw, landing a boulder on deck looks like it's an easier shot than making a three-pointer in basketball, based on the ratio of the area of the target and the distance from the throwers. Hitting the airship is even easier when you consider that some of the giants are "shooting" from the same altitude, or a higher one, than the basket, and that the target is substantially wider than the projectile. (In basketball, the cross section of the ball is much closer to the area of the basket, meaning that a hit has to be fairly centered to ensure that the ball goes in.)

Also, remember that the strip I posted was near the beginning of the ambush, presumably when the pass hasn't narrowed all the way. The giants apparently thought the ship was close enough to the mountains at this point that weapons fire would be effective, but that doesn't mean that weapons fire wouldn't be more effective later on, when the ship was forced to get close to the mountains. In fact, the strip strongly implies that this is the case: Initially (at the point where we had that wide shot), the ship was far enough away that few boulders got near the deck, and no giants were able to board. It wasn't until later that a giant was able to attempt a boarding (by grabbing on at some point below deck and trying to climb up.) I would argue that, by the time two giants were able to jump down onto the deck, the Mechane was close enough to the mountains that landing a hit on the deck was now much, much easier.

[littlebum2002]

But if Roy is going to pick up and throw a boulder that landed on the ship that wasn't originally there, then yes, I'd like to see it actually landing on the deck. I just find it sloppy not to. It would be similar to if when Roy was fighting Thog in the arena, we never saw Ian slip him a potion that he then used as an improvised weapon. It's perfectly plausible that the rogue did something sneaky or that Roy had something on him, but the best writing would be actually showing it happening. The full sequence was shown in the arena, but there is no reason to just assume a boulder landed on the deck..

First you complain about faulty analogies, then you go and compare a plot-important item (the potion bottle) with something that's just hanging out in the background (the boulder). It fell on the deck, it got thrown off. It was never relevant to the strip in any way. If you'd like, pretend Roy just threw the giant and the axe off the airship, pretend the boulder never got there in the first place, and the strip will be exactly the same. It's not "sloppy writing" to not show the origin of every item in the background of your strip.

Do you remember when Haley wrote Elan a love note during the Battle of Azure City? It was never shown where she got the paper from. Sloppy writing!!!

[Mordar]

But if the boulder is going to be an object that's actually used in the story, I just think we should actually get to see how it got there, directly. (I had the same issue with Roy's club, which ended up as bonus content in the books).

Furthermore, Rich already did spend half a page showing a projectile hitting nothing of importance. Nothing would be gained by repeating such joke, and therefore using even a single panel showing a boulder land on the deck and not hit anyone would be a literal waste of one panel. Especially given how irrelevant the rock is to the overall scene: Roy tried and failed to use it as a weapon, and Elan used it as a stool. That's it. Chekhov's Gun this ain't.

This whole nit-pick comes across as ridiculous, to be honest. Complaining for complaining's sake.

Grey Wolf

I believe in the fun of the nit-pick (hence my Nitpickers Guides for Star Trek!). In this case, the presence of the boulder kind of surprised me as I didn't remember it being there...and while it is absolutely reasonable that it could be there, it struck me as odd that it was present in the mop up and not in the action. In a movie I'd think "I bet they clipped the scene and we just didn't see where it came in", and in this case I kind of felt the same way.

There was also sort of an economy of art question here for me. Having a set dresser in a movie add a boulder would be pretty common and not impact the resources of the production but for a comic in this style it seems it would require more effort and intent. So, what is the intent?

What advantage would adding a panel dedicated to showing the boulder landing on the deck contribute to the writing? It seems to me like it'd be drawing out the conflict, blunting the overall pacing, for no real gain.

Depending on placement, I certainly agree that it would have been a dragging addition...but I think it might have been done in a way to easily include it in an existing panel as well.

My question is what is the advantage of including the previously undocumented boulder to the writing? Is it just so Roy has something to do so that we can see Elan struggling with the axe? Probably worthwhile if so, but also could have been a single panel inclusion. It would be a cool "double" panel to have Roy tossing the corpse and Elan dragging the axe, followed with the body going over the side and then the wide shot showing the bits falling. But, that would have necessitated some combination of the first two panels to allow the panel architecture to be conserved.

In short, I was curious about the sudden boulder appearance (not the logic of it in-story, but the logic of its inclusion in the art at this time)...and I guess I think it is an architecture issue secondary to the desire to show Elan helping, and the boulder was the solution.

We didn't see everything that happened during the battle. We have seen giants come running down the mountainside and leap onto the deck, which means at least some giants are above the flight path of the Mechane, which makes it plausible that a boulder could have been rolled down the mountain (accidentally or not) and landed on the deck.

We also know from lore that giants carry bags with lots of things in them, including throwing-size rocks. In fact, given the snowy terrain, it's plausible that the giants brought all their ammunition with them, as finding convenient rocks might be difficult in the snow. This means that either of the two giants could have had the rock in their bag or hammerspace and then dropped it on the deck.

Well of course that's where it came from...otherwise the deck'd be damaged!

- M

[SaintRidley]

Other possible points of rocky ingress:

Penultimate panel of 1053 shows a Rock in the air probably on its way toward the deck.

Panel 2 of 1057 shows rocks being thrown at the airship, with one actually high enough to land on deck, probably in the correct position given the ship is continuing to move forward.

Suffice to say it's sufficient to see boulders flying at the ship with trajectories that would land them on deck. You don't need to show the impact, because it's unnecessary. The trajectory shows that it's going to happen barring intervention. It's the ones that don't land on deck despite their trajectories that you need to see missing, not the ones that do.

[Mordar]

My question is what is the advantage of including the previously undocumented boulder to the writing? Is it just so Roy has something to do so that we can see Elan struggling with the axe? Probably worthwhile if so, but also could have been a single panel inclusion. It would be a cool "double" panel to have Roy tossing the corpse and Elan dragging the axe, followed with the body going over the side and then the wide shot showing the bits falling. But, that would have necessitated some combination of the first two panels to allow the panel architecture to be conserved.

In short, I was curious about the sudden boulder appearance (not the logic of it in-story, but the logic of its inclusion in the art at this time)...and I guess I think it is an architecture issue secondary to the desire to show Elan helping, and the boulder was the solution.

Well of course that's where it came from...otherwise the deck'd be damaged!

- M

....and there it is, clear as day with "authentic battle damage" on 1066, just like hamishspence said. And I didn't click. Because I was in a hurry or dumb or something.

And, of course, Elan standing on it in 1074.

So, yeah, totally Chekoved or whatever.

Plus, you know...the panel architecture thing. Yeah.

- M

[GreatWyrmGold]

This whole nit-pick comes across as ridiculous, to be honest. Complaining for complaining's sake.

Isn't that the official sport of the Internet?

[8BitNinja]

Where do you think the term "<Excrete> a brick" came from?

According to Reddit, it's referring to a release after constipation.

[F.Harr]

I'm totally with Roy about not rocking the wounded, weaponless boat. On the other hand, could they get him his sword now? Or do they have to wait for V to grab it for him?

[Quibblicious]

According to Reddit, it's referring to a release after constipation.

And a constipated giant would therefore excrete a larger version of a stone-like object. Like a boulder...

And thus the logical circle is completed and heads may spin freely...

Q

[drazen]

Other possible points of rocky ingress:

Penultimate panel of 1053 shows a Rock in the air probably on its way toward the deck.

Panel 2 of 1057 shows rocks being thrown at the airship, with one actually high enough to land on deck, probably in the correct position given the ship is continuing to move forward.

Suffice to say it's sufficient to see boulders flying at the ship with trajectories that would land them on deck. You don't need to show the impact, because it's unnecessary. The trajectory shows that it's going to happen barring intervention. It's the ones that don't land on deck despite their trajectories that you need to see missing, not the ones that do.

Nothing in 1053 indicates the trajectory of that rock. There aren't even motion lines.

In 1057, I could just as easily see that rock falling short on that arc and bouncing off the side of the ship.

The boulder was used in two plot-important ways and in one mostly-a-joke way:

(1) Roy throwing the boulder and Elan saying "Aw, man, I just fixed that fighter!" was a clear joke.

(2) Elan stood ON the boulder that was thrown back at Roy to cast Mending. I don't know if he could have done that from the deck or not.

(3) The boulder was dumped overboard to decrease the weight of the ship.

While not the most critical item, the boulder DID have an impact on the plot in at least 2 ways. Therefore, we should have seen the impact, not just a random boulder suddenly appearing on the deck in a panel.

I'm not saying it is implausible for a boulder to be there, I'm saying that when the boulder first appeared, I was trying to figure out exactly where it came from, and could not trace it back. The author is usually pretty good about clearly and directly showing where items used in the plot come from, so it strikes me as odd that it would just be "A random boulder just happened to land on the deck." It easily could have been shown landing near Roy while he fought the giants, for instance, without requiring an extra panel.

[Xyril]

I believe in the fun of the nit-pick (hence my Nitpickers Guides for Star Trek!).

I loved those guides, and had no idea that the guy who wrote them would be hanging out here.

I'm also never going to make any complex factual assertions around you again.

[littlebum2002]

I'm saying that when the boulder first appeared, I was trying to figure out exactly where it came from

So your thought process was basically:

"Hmmm, there's a big boulder on board, I wonder where it could have come from. I mean, we've only seen pictures of frost giants throwing boulders at the ship for 20 strips or so, but let's keep our minds open for other possibilities."

Whereas literally every other person reading the strip went

"Oh, there's a boulder on board. A frost giant must have thrown it there"

I mean, if you've seen following the story, and you've seen frost giants throwing boulders for 20 strips or so, and you see a boulder on the object they've been throwing boulders at, and you have to think for more than a second or two about where that boulder came from, well, you might have a problem.

[Mordar]

I loved those guides, and had no idea that the guy who wrote them would be hanging out here.

I'm also never going to make any complex factual assertions around you again.

I um...meant the ones I have on my bookshelf...not the ones I wrote.

But now I want to pretend otherwise.

- M

[drazen]

So your thought process was basically:

"Hmmm, there's a big boulder on board, I wonder where it could have come from. I mean, we've only seen pictures of frost giants throwing boulders at the ship for 20 strips or so, but let's keep our minds open for other possibilities."

Whereas literally every other person reading the strip went

"Oh, there's a boulder on board. A frost giant must have thrown it there"

I mean, if you've seen following the story, and you've seen frost giants throwing boulders for 20 strips or so, and you see a boulder on the object they've been throwing boulders at, and you have to think for more than a second or two about where that boulder came from, well, you might have a problem.

My question was not HOW it got there, but WHEN it got there.

Suddenly in a strip there is a boulder on deck that was not there. Obviously, a giant threw it, but I find that distracting when I don't know when it got there. I saw the boulder and thought, huh, I don't remember seeing that land on the deck, maybe I missed it... only to find out that I did not miss it.

This is differemt than the sides of the ship accumulating damage, as we actually see that happen several times. We see zero boulders land on the deck before one is there.

[Xyril]

My question was not HOW it got there, but WHEN it got there.

Suddenly in a strip there is a boulder on deck that was not there. Obviously, a giant threw it, but I find that distracting when I don't know when it got there. I saw the boulder and thought, huh, I don't remember seeing that land on the deck, maybe I missed it... only to find out that I did not miss it.

I think I'm starting to understand how your mind works a little better. You must find it infuriating when they do that thing where they've been zoomed in on someone for a while, and then they pan out revealing that some else had arrived unnoticed (with hilarious and/or dramatic results.)

[goodpeople25]

My question was not HOW it got there, but WHEN it got there.

Suddenly in a strip there is a boulder on deck that was not there. Obviously, a giant threw it, but I find that distracting when I don't know when it got there. I saw the boulder and thought, huh, I don't remember seeing that land on the deck, maybe I missed it... only to find out that I did not miss it.

This is differemt than the sides of the ship accumulating damage, as we actually see that happen several times. We see zero boulders land on the deck before one is there.

Well yeah that's how things tend to work. There're no boulders on deck until there are boulders on deck. Now I can see the argument (not necessarily agree though) of it was only shown exactly when it was needed for a scene, but as far as I can tell that was not the case. (If this is your argument okay then, I'm just pretty sure it dosen't match the comic) This seems to lean towards something like everything must be seen from the start and that nothing can (be inferred to) happen off panel.

[Goblin_Priest]

The boulder was just there for comedic purposes, imo, so foreshadowing is not really all that important.

[8BitNinja]

The boulder was just there for comedic purposes, imo, so foreshadowing is not really all that important.

Since Elan didn't mention anything about it (as far as I can remember) your statement has a 50% chance of being correct.

[SaintRidley]

In this instance, when it got there is an entirely irrelevant question when you can deduce how it got there. If you have the how, you have a timeframe on when, and any more specific when than that is needlessly specific.

[martianmister]

The boulder was just there for comedic purposes, imo, so foreshadowing is not really all that important.

What's comedic about it?

[Kantaki]

What's comedic about it?

Elan using it as a stepladder to cast on the balloon?
At least I thought it was a amusing touch.

[Goblin_Priest]

What's comedic about it?

Sshhrripp
"Aww, man! I just repaired that balloon!"
"We've stopped moving, so keep your feet on the deck and fix it again."
"I've got an-nnn! -idea to get her attention back on me."
Catch!
"Are you kidding me? Catching boulders is one of our only special abilities."
Fwonk!
"Well, she threw it back at me instead of at the ship, so technically, that worked."
"Aww, man! I just repaired that fighter!"

Not claiming it's the joke of the year, but seems like multiple small comedic jabs to me. Having him throw a rock at her allows to display, for example, how poor frost giants are in terms of special abilities, and how ridiculously pointless these are. "Rock catching?" Just seeing Roy throw that random rock at her, which is extremely implausible (he doesn't have Rock Throwing), basically shows that only by having their enemies (the PCs) cheat will you ever see this ability be of any use. Maybe you don't see the humor in this, and perhaps you are right that it wasn't meant as a joke, but it made me chuckle. To me, looks like the only point of that rock being there was to be catched in order to highlight the giants' ridiculous ability.

[KorvinStarmast]

And a constipated giant would therefore excrete a larger version of a stone-like object. Like a boulder...

And thus the logical circle is completed and heads may spin freely...

Hmm, I guess Frost Giants don't have access to a lot of prunes.

My question was not HOW it got there, but WHEN it got there.

Suddenly in a strip there is a boulder on deck that was not there. Obviously, a giant threw it, but I find that distracting when I don't know when it got there. I saw the boulder and thought, huh, I don't remember seeing that land on the deck, maybe I missed it... only to find out that I did not miss it.

This is differemt than the sides of the ship accumulating damage, as we actually see that happen several times. We see zero boulders land on the deck before one is there.

Where do Haley's arrows come from?