Powergaming 2e

[CE DM]

I consider it a good DMing decision, but sure, sometimes the DM wants the players to powergame as much as they can, I guess

[Klorox]

Wouldn't that only affect the fighter levels you take?

Yup.

Thanks for all the great replies guys!!

[Jay R]

Wouldn't that only affect the fighter levels you take?

Sure. But even for just a few levels, turning d4+2 into d10+4 is a significant improvement.

[Dimers]

What class/race combo, using only the PHB and guidebooks (Complete Guide to Fighters, ect), is the most optimized for survival and power, in your opinion?

Depends on stats, XP at game start, and whether your DM accepts dual-dual-classing (the PHB doesn't say whether that's possible).

If starting at 1st level, I'd say dwarven fighter|priest. Tough, good saves, healing or buff spells, able to cast in armor, can specialize a little in a weapon. 'Survival' is more important than 'power' at 1st level, and this build's power is decent as it gains levels.

If the stats are good enough for it, a human fighter-->bard is pretty tasty at low to mid levels, because they get magic and useful skills quickly while getting back their fighter abilities. If your DM lets you find or research cat's grace to go along with strength, well, you're a fighter and a rogue, so you roll high for both, and they last a long time.

For higher levels, an aged human priest7-->wizard8+ has decent survivability and All The Spells. (More survivability than theory would suggest, because your party will probably protect you as a treasure-trove of goodness.) I like to go to priest 7 for the fourth-level spells, since you can get one bonus with realistic amounts of Wisdom.

[CE DM]

Sure. But even for just a few levels, turning d4+2 into d10+4 is a significant improvement.

eventually you loose con points to death/raise dead. It's terrific for non fighters to have over 16, too, just for that reason.

[CharonsHelper]

Sure. But even for just a few levels, turning d4+2 into d10+4 is a significant improvement.

Right - but that's mostly the Fighter levels in general, not the high Con. With a Con of 14 you'd still be getting d10+2.

The extra 2 points are nice, but it just seemed odd to me that he mentioned it specifically for only dipping a couple levels in Fighter. It'd be far more beneficial if you were taking 5+ in Fighter. If you're only dipping 2, I probably wouldn't bother putting that high a stat into Con and put it in something else.

Of course - this is all assuming that you get a 15 STR, a 17 in your 2nd class's prime stat, and still have a high enough stat to even take advantage of the Fighter's high Con benefits.

[LibraryOgre]

Wouldn't that only affect the fighter levels you take?

Not by my reading.

So, you're a level 4 Fighter, who turns into a mage. You're very lucky, and have an 18 Constitution.

For levels 1-4 of Fighter, you're getting 1d10+4 HP.

For levels 1-4 of Mage, you don't have access to fighter abilities, but you're also not getting HD. At level 5 Mage, you get access to your Fighter abilities again, including your improved HP bonus on HD. This is born out when looking at the multi-classing rules... you get half of the benefit when going up in one class, and half when going up in the other... your benefit isn't capped at +2, even for a 19 Constitution Dwarven fighter/cleric.

So, if you have a great Constitution, you can get great HP as a mage, though a huge bonus.

[Jay R]

Not by my reading.

So, you're a level 4 Fighter, who turns into a mage. You're very lucky, and have an 18 Constitution.

For levels 1-4 of Fighter, you're getting 1d10+4 HP.

For levels 1-4 of Mage, you don't have access to fighter abilities, but you're also not getting HD. At level 5 Mage, you get access to your Fighter abilities again, including your improved HP bonus on HD. This is born out when looking at the multi-classing rules... you get half of the benefit when going up in one class, and half when going up in the other... your benefit isn't capped at +2, even for a 19 Constitution Dwarven fighter/cleric.

So, if you have a great Constitution, you can get great HP as a mage, though a huge bonus.

That's an interesting argument. It didn't convince me you're right, but it did convince me for the first time that the question is open, and I looked at the PHB.

The multi-class does indeed get it for both classes. And the description of the bonus under Constitution doesn't say it only applies to warrior levels. It says that the warrior characters get the bonus. The dual-class Fighter/Wizard is a warrior, so he gets it - even when getting hit points from a mage level.

Thank you. I would never have looked it up without your explanation.

[LibraryOgre]

That's an interesting argument. It didn't convince me you're right, but it did convince me for the first time that the question is open, and I looked at the PHB.

The multi-class does indeed get it for both classes. And the description of the bonus under Constitution doesn't say it only applies to warrior levels. It says that the warrior characters get the bonus. The dual-class Fighter/Wizard is a warrior, so he gets it - even when getting hit points from a mage level.

Thank you. I would never have looked it up without your explanation.

I know you're agreeing with me, but I just found a bit of further bolstering:

He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18 Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it).

Since % strength is specific to Warriors, and they keep that, they would also keep warrior-only Constitution bonuses.

[CharonsHelper]

Well - that being the case - I 100% agree that it'd be a great reason to dip a couple levels of Fighter.

However, I still think that you'd have an issue in 2e of having a 15+ STR, a 17+ INT, and an 18 CON. If you pull that off it's amazing, but those are some tough stats to roll outside of Baldur's Gate (where you roll 317 times to get amazing stats).

I know that 2e has STR boost items - are there CON boost items? I could see having a more average CON and just aim to get an item to boost it eventually.

[LibraryOgre]

Well - that being the case - I 100% agree that it'd be a great reason to dip a couple levels of Fighter.

However, I still think that you'd have an issue in 2e of having a 15+ STR, a 17+ INT, and an 18 CON. If you pull that off it's amazing, but those are some tough stats to roll outside of Baldur's Gate (where you roll 317 times to get amazing stats).

I know that 2e has STR boost items - are there CON boost items? I could see having a more average CON and just aim to get an item to boost it eventually.

Oh, I agree, it's a pretty difficult set of stats to get.

For Con boost items, I can think of:

1) Ioun Stones.
2) Manual of Bodily Health
3) Girdle of Dwarvenkind

Those are from the DMG; there may be more, of course.

[Jay R]

However, I still think that you'd have an issue in 2e of having a 15+ STR, a 17+ INT, and an 18 CON. If you pull that off it's amazing, but those are some tough stats to roll outside of Baldur's Gate (where you roll 317 times to get amazing stats).

The weirdest part to me is being a wizard who didn't make INT his highest stat.

[CE DM]

quite common in pre d20 D&D games

INT often isn't all that for a MU or mage

[Klorox]

quite common in pre d20 D&D games

INT often isn't all that for a MU or mage

What?!?

INT determines your chance to learn spells, how many you can scribe in your spellbook, and what level of spell you can cast.

[Khedrac]

What?!?

INT determines your chance to learn spells, how many you can scribe in your spellbook, and what level of spell you can cast.

Chance to learn spells can be houseruled away as too annoying to remember*.
The others come into play depending on what level you expect the campaign to reach - and many campaigns never get past 10th level - which not only affects the max level you need to be able to cast, but how many spells you will encounter and attempt to scribe.

* It's not the chance, it's remembering which spells you met two (real world) years ago and failed on then so you should not re-roll now...

[Klorox]

Chance to learn spells can be houseruled away as too annoying to remember*.
The others come into play depending on what level you expect the campaign to reach - and many campaigns never get past 10th level - which not only affects the max level you need to be able to cast, but how many spells you will encounter and attempt to scribe.

* It's not the chance, it's remembering which spells you met two (real world) years ago and failed on then so you should not re-roll now...

Well, if you're going to house rule away the function of a statistic, then I'll agree with you.

[LibraryOgre]

What?!?

INT determines your chance to learn spells, how many you can scribe in your spellbook, and what level of spell you can cast.

Which, TBH, might not be all that important.

The difference between a 17 and an 18 is one language/NWP, a 10% chance to learn spells, and access to 9th level spells. As an optional rule, it can also be the difference of 4 spells per spell level (we used it back in the day, but the more I think about it, the less I like that particular rule).

But that's not that much. If your play usually caps out at 8th or 9th level (as seems common, IME), then access to 9th level spells doesn't mean that much. A 10% chance to learn spells is significant, but not crippling, especially when you're 75% likely to get them, anyway. And 14 v. 18 spells per spell level isn't that huge, really, in the long run.

But compare that to the advantages of an 18 Constitution. It means an additional 2 HP per level (over a 16 Con)... so 20 more HP over the course of your career (since wizards get 10 HD). It also moves resurrection survival from "Near Certainty" to "Certainty", and gives a bump to system shock (though I admit those are minor points, especially after poo-pooing a 10% change in Chance to Learn spells). And you've also got a bit more space for making magic items and permanency, if you live that long... while, you might also do the same math and say "When my constitution drops with middle age, my intelligence will go up."

I don't think it's necessarily the optimal arrangement, but I can also see looking at those scores and saying "I will be a pretty buff wizard if it comes to that." And if you're playing through those lower levels, that toughness might appeal to you.