El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Rater202]

Zeus has tears in his eyes, though. It makes me feel that he already got the immortal email alert that Pandora broke the rules.

GW

That's Pandora.

Zues is merely wide-eyed.

[Calemyr]

The tears are in Pandora's eyes. She was forced to choose between sacrificing her identity or watching helplessly as her son was gunned down before her and she made her choice.

Suddenly Zeus makes a lot more sense. He shows how this is supposed to work, and how drastically incarnations can change from one to the next. Jerry thought immortals who called themselves Zeus were comically stuffy and full of themselves, Zeus adamantly insists on the name. Jerry believed his base nature was noble, Zeus thinks Jerry was killjoy busybody. Much like the Doctor, adjacent incarnations appear to be stark contrasts to one another with the similarities boiling up over time. We've also seen through the twins how improper deaths can royally mess up your brain for a while.

So... will this be a reset or a refresh, like Pandora wanted? The thought of an absurdly weakened but mentally stable Pandora could be interesting. The thought of a broken immortal suffering for the misdeeds of a previous incarnation she can't even remember could be compelling. The thought of Pandora resetting into Hanma would be... silly, really. I do hope she's not simply reset and we end up with "Hera"... or worse... "Navi". *shudder*

This instant really reminds me of Homestuck, when god-tier characters died and the pendulum swung between "heroic" and "just" (the two deaths that would stick, where they would resurrect otherwise). All you could do was wait for the final verdict to be revealed.

Reset.

Refresh.

Reset.

Refresh.

Re-

[Vinyadan]

Every immortal will also know why Pandora did that.

I wonder if this means that whatever hidden info Pandora came across in (?)Egypt will also be distributed to other immortals.

[halfeye]

This is exactly what Voltaire planned.

He has to go too.

If every "good" immortal isn't now against him, there ain't no justice.

[Calemyr]

This is exactly what Voltaire planned.

He has to go too.

If every "good" immortal isn't now against him, there ain't no justice.

Yep. Voltaire looks like he's getting everything he wants. It's so easy when you're evil...

That said, if Pandora pulls off the "refresh" and gets reset into a newborn Pandora and not a clean-slate immortal, he might be well and truly screwed.

And, in all honesty, Voltaire didn't do anything "wrong". He just told someone that an immortal had a son in town, insinuating it to be one of the twins rather than Pandora. Immortals can lie, so that bit's still kosher. One little piece of "guidance", given to the right person at the right time, led to this. Voltaire didn't break any rules, and he absolutely believes he's in the right - that the immortals have legislated themselves to impotence and an apocalypse is the only way to free his people. The magic dam breaking (rather than being disarmed) may be a key factor in it, as that would cause magic to flip the table and put Tedd in charge of redesigning it, with Tedd in a devastated state of mind that would have come from having his best friend killed by magic shenanigans or discovering that his life's goal simply wasn't possible just because magic puts drama before the greater good.

Pandora, on the other hand, knew interfering was wrong and did it anyway. That's a paddlin'. Fair? No, but those are the same rules Pandora bent into a pretzel enough times to feed a ballpark, so she doesn't really have room to complain.

Personally, my bet is that we don't get a straight answer on reset/refresh right away. We know she's turned into a newborn immortal as expected, and doesn't show any signs of knowing much at all about her past life beyond a few vows she's going to take seriously, such as working with Sarah. Then, when it looks like Voltaire has an unimpeded shot at getting his way, that's when Pandora drops the "wide eyed innocent" facade and gives the kids some much needed "guidance".

And I'd do it all for free... your tears are all the pay I'll ever need...

[Rater202]

Voltaire's goal isn't to force Pandora to reset.

It's to co-opt her stuff to traumatize Tedd and force magic to reset(implicitly having something to do with his frustrations with Immortal Law)

He hasn't won yet.

[JavaScribe]

Voltaire's goal isn't to force Pandora to reset.

It's to co-opt her stuff to traumatize Tedd and force magic to reset(implicitly having something to do with his frustrations with Immortal Law)

He hasn't won yet.

It's not just about Tedd. His manipulations just notified every single immortal on the planet that someone was forced to sacrifice herself because their rules were badly designed. An underhanded way to make it, but he does have a valid point I suppose.

[Drascin]

Voltaire's goal isn't to force Pandora to reset.

It's to co-opt her stuff to traumatize Tedd and force magic to reset(implicitly having something to do with his frustrations with Immortal Law)

He hasn't won yet.

Also if I was him I'd make sure to remain very hunkered down and out of sight for the next two minutes. A Pandora with no ****s left to give could very well deliver a couple more nukes before finally resetting.

[Qwertystop]

It's not just about Tedd. His manipulations just notified every single immortal on the planet that someone was forced to sacrifice herself because their rules were badly designed. An underhanded way to make it, but he does have a valid point I suppose.

We don't know how much detail is given about the context of the actions. Just "what you did, why you did it". Which, here, is "killed half a dozen vampires because one of them was about to shoot her son". When the laws were made, there was no exemption for defense-of-family or killing-of-vampires. Plenty of immortals might just take this as an object lesson in why not to have kids and why to tell later incarnations that elves are sterile.

[Lamech]

Every immortal will also know why Pandora did that.

I wonder if this means that whatever hidden info Pandora came across in (?)Egypt will also be distributed to other immortals.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Immortals know they can have children. Those are elves. The lies is "Elves are sterile." So if every immortal learns "Pandora fried a bunch of vampires to save her son", nothing gets out. OTOH, if they learn "Pandora fried a bunch of vampires to save her son and probable granddaughter." some might figure it out, but I bet more will just think Pandora is crazy.

Also: Judging by Zeus's reaction compared with Diane's reaction Zeus must have just gotten an info-dump. Pandora did a law break.

Finally: we settled which wins in a fight Magic vs. Humanity's toys. It turns out its magic.

[Calemyr]

Maybe, but I don't think so. Immortals know they can have children. Those are elves. The lies is "Elves are sterile." So if every immortal learns "Pandora fried a bunch of vampires to save her son", nothing gets out. OTOH, if they learn "Pandora fried a bunch of vampires to save her son and probable granddaughter." some might figure it out, but I bet more will just think Pandora is crazy.

Also: Judging by Zeus's reaction compared with Diane's reaction Zeus must have just gotten an info-dump. Pandora did a law break.

Finally: we settled which wins in a fight Magic vs. Humanity's toys. It turns out its magic.

Not all immortals are ignorant of elven fertility. Jerry knew, and made sure Zeus knew. That said, I don't think it matters. The judgment is automatic, with no consideration for the opinions of the immortals. She knowingly broke the rules, that's all there is to it.

And I do believe the point of this whole mess is to remove Pandora from the equation. She's way too massive a wildcard to leave in play if it really matters to Voltaire. He's been playing it a lot smarter than Pandora was, after all.

[Qwertystop]

That said, I don't think it matters. The judgment is automatic, with no consideration for the opinions of the immortals. She knowingly broke the rules, that's all there is to it.

Unclear. The knowing is automatic, but we don't know whether other immortals can decide whether or not (or how much) to contribute to the forced reset. Though I would assume that there's enough immortals out there that it's unlikely to make a difference without truly exceptional circumstances, since it's a minimum threshold rather than any sort of majority.

[Silva Stormrage]

Unclear. The knowing is automatic, but we don't know whether other immortals can decide whether or not (or how much) to contribute to the forced reset. Though I would assume that there's enough immortals out there that it's unlikely to make a difference without truly exceptional circumstances, since it's a minimum threshold rather than any sort of majority.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't automatic considering the circumstances. Killing abberations to save the life of her son is pretty much the best possible situation I can think of to break the law and the two immortals that we see atm are way too shocked and stunned for this to be waved off as a "Well maybe the court of immortals decides to be lenient".

I think we are seeing a refresh attempted on Pandora's end after a heartfelt apology to Raven. Also on a pure story note I think this was kinda necessary as the main cast couldn't keep having a super powerful immortal like Pandora around as a helpful ally because it would shatter most conflicts.

Still not sure why Pandora wasn't empowering Susan or Diane or Raven to help in this fight. I am highly surprised Pandora doesn't have an invincibility or "resistance to damage" spell that she was casting on Raven. Maybe Scarf's gun was enchanted to bypass those but still seems odd we didn't see that at all.

[Mith]

I would be very surprised if it wasn't automatic considering the circumstances. Killing abberations to save the life of her son is pretty much the best possible situation I can think of to break the law and the two immortals that we see atm are way too shocked and stunned for this to be waved off as a "Well maybe the court of immortals decides to be lenient".

I think we are seeing a refresh attempted on Pandora's end after a heartfelt apology to Raven. Also on a pure story note I think this was kinda necessary as the main cast couldn't keep having a super powerful immortal like Pandora around as a helpful ally because it would shatter most conflicts.

Still not sure why Pandora wasn't empowering Susan or Diane or Raven to help in this fight. I am highly surprised Pandora doesn't have an invincibility or "resistance to damage" spell that she was casting on Raven. Maybe Scarf's gun was enchanted to bypass those but still seems odd we didn't see that at all.

My guess is that Pandora is trying to avoid the really screwy loops of logic she was prone to before, and only set out to guide and watch over her son. She probably has also put her power mostly towards attempting a refresh vs. a restart, keeping just enough to protect her son if she had to.

[Rater202]

I think we are seeing a refresh attempted on Pandora's end after a heartfelt apology to Raven. Also on a pure story note I think this was kinda necessary as the main cast couldn't keep having a super powerful immortal like Pandora around as a helpful ally because it would shatter most conflicts.

As I have repeatedly said, there are no narrative reasons to force Pandora to reset: Most of EGS's conflict is social, which Pandora can't really help with, and physical conflicts, such as against abberations or Lord Tedd, can be solved by Pandora taking a mentor role and sticking to the more traditional poweringand guiding/maybe taking some of Edward's Mister Exposition Role. Especially if the refresh fails, inwhich casean interesting character will imediatly bereplaced by her replacementgoldfish

I mean, Tedd's dad is a powerful wizard with a room full of top-secret documents and the training of an FBI field agent. How many conflicts has he effortlessly solved?

So this? this is not for the sake of making it easier to conflict.

[Douglas]

Unclear. The knowing is automatic, but we don't know whether other immortals can decide whether or not (or how much) to contribute to the forced reset. Though I would assume that there's enough immortals out there that it's unlikely to make a difference without truly exceptional circumstances, since it's a minimum threshold rather than any sort of majority.

Zeus is explicit that the punishment is automatic.

Still not sure why Pandora wasn't empowering Susan or Diane or Raven to help in this fight. I am highly surprised Pandora doesn't have an invincibility or "resistance to damage" spell that she was casting on Raven. Maybe Scarf's gun was enchanted to bypass those but still seems odd we didn't see that at all.

For casting such things on them herself, that might be crossing the line into direct action rather than empowering, at least farther than she can convince herself of without reverting to near-psychic instability. Giving them the power to do it themselves would be unambiguously ok, but it would have to be a lot of power for it to make them safe despite their lack of skill, and Voltaire's stunt with Dex suggests that handing out great quantities of power is not a simple thing she could just do whenever she wanted. Plus, the real problem was Raven's attention being divided and the gun coming as such a short notice lethal threat. Seriously, Scarf goes from looking like an ordinary bystander, unusually calm but that's all, to aiming a gun nearly guaranteed to kill in one shot, in I'd guess a second or less.

In any case, Pandora's next incarnation will definitely be showing up eventually, to fulfill her vow to Sarah at the very least. My bet is that she will successfully refresh, though perhaps losing a bit more than she wanted due to having to rush it while under overwhelming attack.

[Calemyr]

Zeus is explicit that the punishment is automatic.


For casting such things on them herself, that might be crossing the line into direct action rather than empowering, at least farther than she can convince herself of without reverting to near-psychic instability. Giving them the power to do it themselves would be unambiguously ok, but it would have to be a lot of power for it to make them safe despite their lack of skill, and Voltaire's stunt with Dex suggests that handing out great quantities of power is not a simple thing she could just do whenever she wanted. Plus, the real problem was Raven's attention being divided and the gun coming as such a short notice lethal threat. Seriously, Scarf goes from looking like an ordinary bystander, unusually calm but that's all, to aiming a gun nearly guaranteed to kill in one shot, in I'd guess a second or less.

In any case, Pandora's next incarnation will definitely be showing up eventually, to fulfill her vow to Sarah at the very least. My bet is that she will successfully refresh, though perhaps losing a bit more than she wanted due to having to rush it while under overwhelming attack.

Agreed, but I would contest she's going to lose a lot of power. I mean, the very concept of maintaining her identity through a reset is an effective impossibility that is only even a theoretical possibility because of her extreme age and the power that comes with it. In a standard case, she should walk out of this knowing that she has a son and that said son meant everything to her. A successful refresh would likely mean knowing she has a son and that said son means everything to her. Not just the facts, but the emotions and context that make it real rather than mere history. That should be impossible in and of itself, but this is Pandora and, if anyone has a chance of pulling it off, she believes she'd have the best shot.

[Calemyr]

New comic. Um... yikes. So we're doing this, Pandora's back is to the wall.

And we get this:

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Susan is a descendant, yes, as predicted, but Diane is Raven's daughter. I will admit I did not expect that. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. Raven has wanted a child for a long time and Susan would have been probably happy to have a positive male rolemodel in her life. Diane, however, is happily adopted. She's less likely to readily embrace it. That said, finding out her biological dad is a hero and didn't abandon her has to count for something.

[halfeye]

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There might still be time to get "Voltaire" (which is an odd name, because the Frenchman it comes from isn't 200 years dead, and our Voltaire is behaving as mad as Pandora).

I am liking the current flow and action of this comic.

[Mith]

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There might still be time to get "Voltaire" (which is an odd name, because the Frenchman it comes from isn't 200 years dead, and our Voltaire is behaving as mad as Pandora).

I am liking the current flow and action of this comic.

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I kind of want him to be short sided enough to show up and gloat, only to be hit with a flying stun hammer and dragged off by Voltaire.

But there was another idea of Pandora pulling off a refresh and hiding it, waiting for Voltaire to try and play his last card of his plan, and THEN tear him a new one.

[Rater202]

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I kind of want him to be short sided enough to show up and gloat, only to be hit with a flying stun hammer and dragged off by Voltaire.

But there was another idea of Pandora pulling off a refresh and hiding it, waiting for Voltaire to try and play his last card of his plan, and THEN tear him a new one.

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"Oh my God! Ican't belive she was stupid enough to... this is just perfect, and---blasted!

"So, turns out when you're almost a thousand years old, you can just pass along most of your power, memories, and emotional attachments and essentially you and your next self are the same person. I've lost half my power and some obscure trivia about summoned monsters, but I'm still me!"

"You can't do that!"

"Bitch I'm Pandora Chaos Raven, I can' do whatever the hell I want! Now, are you the one who tried to murder Elliot Dunkel?"

[Mith]

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"Oh my God! Ican't belive she was stupid enough to... this is just perfect, and---blasted!

"So, turns out when you're almost a thousand years old, you can just pass along most of your power, memories, and emotional attachments and essentially you and your next self are the same person. I've lost half my power and some obscure trivia about summoned monsters, but I'm still me!"

"You can't do that!"

"Bitch I'm Pandora Chaos Raven, I can' do whatever the hell I want! Now, are you the one who tried to murder Elliot Dunkel?"

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I prefer if it is more, knowledge, skill, and personality than raw power and insane levels of foresight due to intuition. So she has to bide her time and play a more careful game. We know that Immortals lose skills as well as raw power. It would be interesting to see an immortal do more with less.

[Calemyr]

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"Oh my God! Ican't belive she was stupid enough to... this is just perfect, and---blasted!

"So, turns out when you're almost a thousand years old, you can just pass along most of your power, memories, and emotional attachments and essentially you and your next self are the same person. I've lost half my power and some obscure trivia about summoned monsters, but I'm still me!"

"You can't do that!"

"Bitch I'm Pandora Chaos Raven, I can' do whatever the hell I want! Now, are you the one who tried to murder Elliot Dunkel?"

That would be satisfying, yes, but I doubt we'll get the payoff immediately. Even if she pulls off a refresh, I doubt she's reckless enough to reveal she survived immediately. Even if the other immortals weren't scared of her, that's still a game-changing stunt and then things would get messy.

Also, as I said, even if she survives this, she's not going to be very powerful or knowledgeable. The idea of a refresh appealed to her because her age (and the knowledge and power that came with it) were making her too unstable. She won't be as clueless as Zeus, I'm sure, and definitely not as bad as the twins, but she probably won't be as advanced as she was when she met Blaike. The major thing is that she will still be Pandora, not some new Immortal that merely read Pandora's biography. Adrian will remain her son, rather than a footnote. Susan and Diane will remain family rather than a statistic.

Much more likely she'll recognize enemy action for what it is, and baby Pandora will play dumb - possibly as a proper newborn like Zeus, possibly as a broken newborn like the twins. She'll still carry through on her vow to Sarah, allowing her to remain in contact with the party. Voltaire believes his biggest obstacle has been removed and, right when he's on the verge of winning, she drops the act and starts actively helping the party.

Edit: There's also the fact that Voltaire technically did nothing wrong. He lied to someone to use them to fix a problem (killing someone), twice. The twins have done so twice now on screen, first with Nanase and Susan in France, then with Andrea in the forest. That's apparently legal. "Guiding and empowering" apparently has nothing to do with telling the truth, it would seem. Attacking a fellow immortal over hurting family? Might be legal, so long as it doesn't effect mortals, but it's hard to tell.

[Gadora]

Attacking a fellow immortal over hurting family? Might be legal, so long as it doesn't effect mortals, but it's hard to tell.

Explicitly legal. See the end of the conversation with the Emissary for a reference.

[Rater202]

Edit: There's also the fact that Voltaire technically did nothing wrong. He lied to someone to use them to fix a problem (killing someone), twice. The twins have done so twice now on screen, first with Nanase and Susan in France, then with Andrea in the forest. That's apparently legal. "Guiding and empowering" apparently has nothing to do with telling the truth, it would seem. Attacking a fellow immortal over hurting family? Might be legal, so long as it doesn't effect mortals, but it's hard to tell.

Pandora explicitly stated that the Laws only protect mortals in the physical realm and that she's free to act in other matters. This was in direct response to being asked if destroying the Immortal that tried to kill Elliot was allowed.

Also, Pandora, the previous selves of the French immortals, and various other immortals have tried or succeeded in harming and at least two tried to kill Magus, a mortal trapped in the Astral Realm, with allbut Pandora doing it mostly becuase he was there.

Semi-Related: I want this part of the story to end with a discussion of regrouping at Tedd's house, and then cut to Magus and Sirleck with Ashley arriving at the government facility to find the rest of our heroes already there.

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Spoiler: CoverPage of Sister 3

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That Sihouteete behind Magus... Is that Pandora in the "Piccolo takes a hit for Gohan, then dies" pose?

[halfeye]

Zeus has said that Pandora isn't strong enough to survive against all the other immortals, could he be wrong about that, even temporarily?

I'd like to see that attack channelled into Voltaire.

It's almost certainly not what's planned, but it would be nice.

[Calemyr]

Zeus has said that Pandora isn't strong enough to survive against all the other immortals, could he be wrong about that, even temporarily?

I'd like to see that attack channelled into Voltaire.

It's almost certainly not what's planned, but it would be nice.

Wow. If the ire of Audience Land was enough to force a reset, Voltaire would be done for. Did even Damien get this much heat?

Dan should be proud.

[Forum Explorer]

This is exactly what Voltaire planned.

He has to go too.

If every "good" immortal isn't now against him, there ain't no justice.

Eh, Voltaire is a cruel ******* who is out to show the flaws in the system by brutally exploiting them. And the annoying thing is that the best way to stop him is to do exactly what he wants, rework the system to remove those flaws.

It's clear Voltaire considers himself a good guy fighting for the greater good, but it's tough to say how true that is. Mostly because we don't actually know what his endgame is.

So do I hate Voltaire? No, but I find it hard to be invested in his schemes because of how Dan writes.

Though I do have high hopes that Pandora is going to get ****** here. A forced, improper reset where she can't remember anyone besides a few vagaries. Maybe she'll get the emotions she felt towards everyone but that's it. That would be nice.

[Rater202]

Though I do have high hopes that Pandora is going to get ****** here. A forced, improper reset where she can't remember anyone besides a few vagaries. Maybe she'll get the emotions she felt towards everyone but that's it. That would be nice.

Pandora has been prepared to Reset for a good long while, so you're probably not getting what you want, even if she doesn't somehow stay herself.

Also, Dan hasn't commented on this being hard to write.

Why do you want to replace an interesting character with a significant degree of two-way emotional connection with other members of the cast with someone that we already have two of?

re: Voltaire. Every immortal Magus met was a **** to him without trying to inflict torture or death upon him because he was there. Immortals are known to cause wars or arrange the deaths of mortals via indirect means for fun. Voltaire has explicitly stated that he sees the immortals restrictions as too Severe. He demonstrates looks of Sadistic glee at various pointd.

Conclusion: he and a good chunk of other immortals are total sociopaths who are so heavily restricted for a reason.

[Forum Explorer]

Pandora has been prepared to Reset for a good long while, so you're probably not getting what you want, even if she doesn't somehow stay herself.

Also, Dan hasn't commented on this being hardto write.

Why do you want to replace an interesting character with a significant degree of two-way emotional connection with other members of the cast with someone that we already have two of?

I legitimately want someone to die, and this is about as close as I think I'm going to get. A heroic sacrifice that isn't that much of a sacrifice is just a waste of time and a trope I hate. Which is why I stopped reading Fairy Tail, because I could never consider the characters to be in any serious danger, considering even minor characters got Deus Ex Machinas to save them.


I want there to be tension to the action. This whole sequence has been pretty boring to me because I sincerely don't feel like anyone is in any real danger. Pandora getting reset badly would prove me wrong and that would be wonderful.