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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Present 2.0 View Post
    You still haven't given me a Link to that Fanfic, that you've all read.
    ...
    Grace: Tedd says that if I'm Superman, he's Batman
    Sarah: And you're dating, I think I've read that fanfic.

    Was joke.

    Apologies.

    As for today's page... Either Pandora needs to tone it down a notch because if Tedd didn't wake up the house that sure did, or...

    ...I have to wonder if this isn't how Lord Tedd happened. His Pandora botched the delivery of this knowledge.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...I have to wonder if this isn't how Lord Tedd happened. His Pandora botched the delivery of this knowledge.
    Was actually coming to post something just like this. Do you want Lord Tedd, Pandora? Because this is how you get Lord Tedd.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    Was actually coming to post something just like this. Do you want Lord Tedd, Pandora? Because this is how you get Lord Tedd.
    To be fair, I don't think that Pandora knows about Lord Tedd.

    But if Tedd's dream has something to do with Lord Tedd, then Lord Tedd was presumably a lot like our Tedd was before he met Grace and his circle of friends grew past Elliot and maybe Sarah--back when he was a shy, heavilyy introverted jerk with no confidence.

    Or Second Life Tedd, who never really outgrew his shyness.

    And then someone he cares about dies...

    If his Pandora came in and delivered this knowledge to a Tedd in that state... Instant God Complex
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    New comic

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    Tedd is concerned that being good or evil is a matter of what friends he has. Tedd's friends influencing his moral alignment makes more sense to me than thinking it was what Pandora said. Once they knew about the abilities, Tedd / Lord Tedd would have figured out the ramifications themselves, whether or not Pandora said, "For you are mighty..."

    My guess is that the difference is in Lord Tedd's universe, human Grace didn't die and her DNA wasn't used to create Shade Tail. Shade Tail wound up evil and was a bad influence when he befriended Lord Tedd.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I've come to the conclusion that an actual Lord Tedd arc will be the last thing that happens in EGs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    "That's how 'good' works, right? I mean, you tell me. I'm just guessing here. Don't look at me like that, it says 'Chaotic Neutral' on my character sheet."
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Campbell View Post
    "That's how 'good' works, right? I mean, you tell me. I'm just guessing here. Don't look at me like that, it says 'Chaotic Neutral' on my character sheet."
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    I like that Pandora has the personal insight to realize she wouldn't be a good influence.


    I've often wondered how much the 'more insightful' aspect of an Immortal's growing power causes them to instantly be able to read and intuit human motivations and thoughts. Like, in the side story about Pandora marking people, if she was using magic to read what folks really wanted to transform into or if her passive senses just allowed her to do that like we can see an obvious facial expression. Such as she can intuit enough about people to act in a way that she knows will likely cause the desired effect. That could be tied to her current boredom with manipulating people, since it's too easy (usually) to anticipate how they will act.

    Hmm... maybe I'll ask that in the next Q&A Dan does.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    This would be the worst possible time for Edward to come down to find out what everyone is yelling about.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Forgive the double post, but... Arthur has apparently unilaterally decided on behalf of the entire world to just let the situation escalate until magic takes it's ball and goes home.

    Voltaire's plan is dependant on this happening.

    Is it possible that Arthur was influenced by Voltaire?
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Forgive the double post, but... Arthur has apparently unilaterally decided on behalf of the entire world to just let the situation escalate until magic takes it's ball and goes home.

    Voltaire's plan is dependant on this happening.

    Is it possible that Arthur was influenced by Voltaire?
    Possibly? I mean it seems pretty inline with what Arthur wants so I don't think Voltaire really needs to manipulate or influence Arthur at all? The most I could see is if Voltaire was the one who first informed Arthur about how magic can change.

    On the new story comic
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    I am really surprised how much I find the last couple pages and story arcs with Pandora switched her from being one of my least favorite characters to one of my favorite. It's a really quite interesting development and her rant about being a parent was pretty well done in the last page.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Checking the links in the commentary... Mr. Nerd-Muscles, the guy who is apparently in charge of the EGS FBI, counts himself among the people who would raise hell if Mr. Veres was fired.

    So... he'd raise hell to himself if he fired Mr. Veres?
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Checking the links in the commentary... Mr. Nerd-Muscles, the guy who is apparently in charge of the EGS FBI, counts himself among the people who would raise hell if Mr. Veres was fired.

    So... he'd raise hell to himself if he fired Mr. Veres?
    I think he was the person in charge of firing Mr. Veres if he had to but he would raise hell if he was pressured into it by *his* higher ups. Thats how I read it anyway.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    This is looking increasingly like Pandora will soon accept that she truly needs to reset, for the sake of her loved ones. It may come down to her choosing a specific list of things she needs to finish up first, and then resetting immediately after. Depending on what she chooses, this could be very helpful or exceedingly inconvenient - having her out of commission right when major things start happening because she finished the list quickly could be bad, but whatever she does pick is going to be done by someone supremely capable.

    Or maybe she'll just try to seek help with maintaining her focus and stability, or seek such help to help her last through finishing her list.

    What if magic resets and Pandora resets at about the same time, and Sarah still hasn't Awakened? Newborn Pandora trying to figure out the new magic system right alongside Sarah (and Tedd) in order to fulfill her Vow could be interesting.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    Does anyone have a list of spells we know that Tedd has seen that fit the "Wand" format?

    Or is Pandora just going to teach him a spell to put in the wand?
    Last edited by Rater202; 2017-07-21 at 12:00 AM.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Does anyone have a list of spells we know that Tedd has seen that fit the "Wand" format?

    Or is Pandora just going to teach him a spell to put in the wand?
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    Most of Ellen's spells are fairly wand-able. This is assuming that wands can't be used to cast self-targeting spells, which we don't necessarily have any reason to believe. If they can cast self-targeting spells, well, most of the spells Tedd knows will work.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    With reference to the commentories on today's and Wednesday's ECSNP, pigtails are plaits.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?
    Weary would be the way I'd put it, but yeah.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?
    She's supposed to look tired. Like she says, it exhausts her to maintain control, and she's been on an emotional rollercoaster which I'm sure does not help the matter. It was easier for her to be the mad schemer.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I'm just saying... Let's say that Pandora decides, after this, to make the next part of her life about helping people and doing good things for her family, things her late husband might have aproved of... If maintaining her compusure for so long is so exhasting, then she might have to spend a lot of time resting to keep herself from going into "power to bend worlds" mode and screwing it up.

    Meaning that we can have Pandora as a long term ally without Pandora having to reset--She's a great asset when she's there, but she'd go crazier than she already is if she was there to help with every little things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I'm just saying... Let's say that Pandora decides, after this, to make the next part of her life about helping people and doing good things for her family, things her late husband might have aproved of... If maintaining her compusure for so long is so exhasting, then she might have to spend a lot of time resting to keep herself from going into "power to bend worlds" mode and screwing it up.

    Meaning that we can have Pandora as a long term ally without Pandora having to reset--She's a great asset when she's there, but she'd go crazier than she already is if she was there to help with every little things.
    It would probably be more optimal, in almost every way, for Pandora to reset. She's more erratic, more scheming, and less reliant on Blaike's example when she's tired, and there's no reason to assume that her "emotional rollercoaster," as Grey Wolf put it, will get any easier to handle going forward. Also, if she takes the time out to rest after every crisis, that adds a layer of unreliability to whatever assistance Pandora can provide. That plus the fact that she can't do much beyond guide and empower (leaving aside her ability to jimmy each and every loophole she comes across to semitruck-size). Also, it's kinder on her relationship with Adrian if she stops doing the things that caused their relationship to sour in the first place, things which come much easier to her with every passing century.

    Lastly, any future reset removes a story-breaking level of power from Elliott's camp (notice how useless Jerry became after his reset).
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    A big problem with resettting though, is that it's literally replacing a character that we've gotten to know with a completely differant character--it would not be Raven's Mother, blaike's Wife, Tedd's Fairy Great Godmother, Sarah's Friend Box, or anyone else.

    the vow would keep her arround... but everything about Pandora that we actually care about and actually makes her an intersting character to keep around goes away in a reset--she might even end up going back into an antagonisti role "God Damn it Pandora, this girl is so stupid! Why did you promise to help her urgh this is so boring!"

    "Why do I care what this elf thinks? He's not my kid."

    "Who the hell was Blaike?"

    "Hey, Tedd, do bad things! It'll be a riot!"

    Comparing what we know about Jerry's youth to his new self, and how the French Immortals are still screwing people over for the sake of having vampire killers present despite amnesia, so... I mean,that's probably how a hypothetical Nu-Pandora would end up.

    I mean, I don't see how what is essentially ritualized suicide followed by reincarnation into a different person is going to repair her relationship with her son--it just means that she's dead.

    Raven didn't tell her that, when this was done she should reset. He told her to help people. And Tedd agrees with her descison not to reset to be their for her family(Tedd being one of the few people she gives a damn about.)

    I just think that, narratively, it makes more sense for Pandora not to reset. If you're seriously worried about her story breaker powers, well, she could swear a vow to limit herself to methods that she thinks a Saner Immortal would abide by to limit herself in an attempt to help herself stay sane... Or find a therapist.

    Or spend a lot of time away from town doing good deeds in an attempt to win back her Son's love.

    Or you know, just be the insane mentor to Tedd and Sarah and in general not actually only acting in a supporting role.

    Though I would like the events in Moperville to get Tedd nand Friends exposed wide as having magical powers, Arther deciding to do something about it, and Pandora apearing before him and explaining exactly why he was going to leave them alone.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    --she might even end up going back into an antagonisti role "God Damn it Pandora, this girl is so stupid! Why did you promise to help her urgh this is so boring!"

    "Why do I care what this elf thinks? He's not my kid."

    "Who the hell was Blaike?"

    "Hey, Tedd, do bad things! It'll be a riot!"

    Comparing what we know about Jerry's youth to his new self, and how the French Immortals are still screwing people over for the sake of having vampire killers present despite amnesia, so... I mean,that's probably how a hypothetical Nu-Pandora would end up.
    Pandora's original plan involved having her next incarnation join Adrian's family. Since she had the intelligence of a 150+ year old immortal at the time and knew her own basic nature, I would expect that a newly reset Pandora would be the kind of person to follow through on that plan.

    Sure, new Jerry resented old Jerry's vow, but his objection was that he expected it to be boring, not that he disagreed with it.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Pandora's original plan assumed that her husband would have died of old age when she was good and ready to let him pass.

    From what we've seen in this arc and prior arcs, it doesn't seem in character for Pandora to deliberately reset, and it's not like having a ridiculously overpowered ally is a bad thing--as an immortal Pandora is already limited in what she can and can't do to help Tedd and co, and most of the problems that our cast solves don't actually involve combat problems--Box can't exactly help Tedd tell his dad that he's genderfluid, right? She can't help assuage those fears.

    All she can do, really, is give advice and help them awaken... Maybe teach Tedd (or other wizards in the main cast if it turns out that one or more others are ones) new spells to play with, or do research for them...

    ...and I think Sarah's the only one who can practically awaken who hasn't already.

    Regardless, would Pandora, even a Pandora who did a full 180 in morality, would she even try to solve all the main cast's problems? Or would she help Sarah awaken and then be the crazy mentor who shows up to provide important information every so often and is otherwise off elsewhere?

    I mean, we've already got a baby immortal allied to the main cast. We don't need two, and I think that there are more story oportunities in having a crazy mentor than their are in having a second one.

    The only way I could see Pandora resetting is if she either 1: Somehow abuses vows to pass all of her knowledge and memories into her next self, thus trading power for sanity while remaining otherwise unchanged, which I'm not sure is even possible(So thus, it'd still be the same character instead of someone else with clinicle knowledge if some of Pandora's experiances) or if she deliberatly broke the rules to protect Tedd, Raven, or Sarah from something(I can tolerate a heroic sacrifice)

    Anyway, there has been shouting, dramatic immortals, and bright glowy magic.

    Are the chances of Grace or Edward having been woken up and coming down to check on what's happening any higher now than they were earliar?
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Pandora's original plan assumed that her husband would have died of old age when she was good and ready to let him pass.

    From what we've seen in this arc and prior arcs, it doesn't seem in character for Pandora to deliberately reset, and it's not like having a ridiculously overpowered ally is a bad thing--as an immortal Pandora is already limited in what she can and can't do to help Tedd and co, and most of the problems that our cast solves don't actually involve combat problems--Box can't exactly help Tedd tell his dad that he's genderfluid, right? She can't help assuage those fears.

    All she can do, really, is give advice and help them awaken... Maybe teach Tedd (or other wizards in the main cast if it turns out that one or more others are ones) new spells to play with, or do research for them...

    ...and I think Sarah's the only one who can practically awaken who hasn't already.

    Regardless, would Pandora, even a Pandora who did a full 180 in morality, would she even try to solve all the main cast's problems? Or would she help Sarah awaken and then be the crazy mentor who shows up to provide important information every so often and is otherwise off elsewhere?

    I mean, we've already got a baby immortal allied to the main cast. We don't need two, and I think that there are more story oportunities in having a crazy mentor than their are in having a second one.

    The only way I could see Pandora resetting is if she either 1: Somehow abuses vows to pass all of her knowledge and memories into her next self, thus trading power for sanity while remaining otherwise unchanged, which I'm not sure is even possible(So thus, it'd still be the same character instead of someone else with clinicle knowledge if some of Pandora's experiances) or if she deliberatly broke the rules to protect Tedd, Raven, or Sarah from something(I can tolerate a heroic sacrifice)

    Anyway, there has been shouting, dramatic immortals, and bright glowy magic.

    Are the chances of Grace or Edward having been woken up and coming down to check on what's happening any higher now than they were earliar?
    If Pandora resets, who or what deals with Voltaire?

    I want to see Pandora being very direct with that guy.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    If Pandora resets, who or what deals with Voltaire?

    I want to see Pandora being very direct with that guy.
    that too.

    Also, I feel like Dan could have sped it up a bit more.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2017-07-27 at 11:59 PM.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Pandora's core character is mischievous but not malevolent. She wanted to play a prank on Blaike, but when she realized he would be in genuine danger she got worried enough to repeatedly try to intervene. In short, she's a lot like Jerry, I think, wanting to cause trouble without really causing harm. She's naturally reluctant to take things seriously, but when she does, she takes them very seriously and will go to any lengths, no matter how destructive, to achieve a goal she's set on.

    I'm almost certain she will not willingly reset herself. She will always find a reason to continue on, even as she admits her growing instability is detriment to her purpose. I do not believe, however, she will have any compunctions left for preserving her current incarnation. If an action would complete a goal, or contribute meaningfully to the completion of a goal, but the action would cause her to reset (either through "death" or through communal judgment), however, I don't imagine her having any qualms about the sacrifice. Maybe enough hesitation to meaningfully turn to the people she's with, say a few words, and then act.

    Reborn, however, she could be a very interesting character. Jerry just wants to party, the twins seem to want to create heroes rather than rely on authority, and Voltaire seems to resent the boundaries the immortals have put upon themselves (i.e. he wants to play a more active role in the world, much like Adrian), but I think Pandora simply just cares. About everything she does, about everything around her. As a newborn, she could serve as a counterpoint to Grace as a caring individual, but where Grace's driving goal is peace and happiness, Pandora's would be growth and well-being. Her own growth, of course, but that of everyone she cares for. She would be a trickster mentor, of course, manipulating people onto paths that would help them mature. But I could see her trying hard to help Tedd develop into the kind of seer he'd be proud to be, or Sarah into the mage she dreams of being. Not because of some vow (though there is that), but because that is who she is. I can also see the group growing to fear her interference as much as they do Tedd's dad, even as they realize its benevolent intent.

    Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"

    Finally, there's the nice symmetry that could come from it. Assuming that Pandora's not likely to reset properly, but also likely to reset in a heroic fashion, who would be fit (and willing) to take this addled kid in? (So she doesn't turn into a loose cannon like the twins, with no pre-installed memories to guide her.) My money would be on Adrian. It would just be right, you know?

    So... yeah. That's my take on Pandora. She wouldn't work as a regular until after a reset, but at that point? I see wonderful possibilities, though only Shive can tell if they'll pan out.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2017-08-03 at 10:40 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"
    1: Again, we already have a reccuring baby immortal. We don't need two.

    2: You are aware that you're suggesting that we eliminate a character's defining conflict whenit's only just become a major issue for the character.

    3: Pandora would die. If Pandora resets, then for all intents and purposes she would be dead and Nu-Pandora would be a completly seperate character, so resetting doesn't change or develop Pandora's caracter, it stops all character development.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    So... yeah. That's my take on Pandora. She wouldn't work as a regular until after a reset, but at that point? I see wonderful possibilities, though only Shive can tell if they'll pan out.
    Pandora is already a regular.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Pandora has become an interesting character recently, so I'm not eager to have her reset. If she does, I hope Magus's situation is resolved first. That's been going on for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"
    IDK. We haven't seen the immortals care much about anything and in particular we haven't seen them dig into their histories much. I don't know why the next Pandora would feel that she owned any responsibility for what the old one did. Granted, the old Pandora may pass some information to the new one about requirements and may even swear oaths, but IIRC so far we've only seen the new immortals being rather annoyed by such things as they obey them.

    Granted, we have seen Pandora care about the well-being of others, but that was apparently only because Blaike's rejection of of her help interested her and then she fell in love with him then later she became protective of anyone she included in her extended family and anyone they were interested in. I don't think that would necessarily carry over after a reset. Perhaps she might pass along the advice that helping people can be fun and challenging and is a good way to avoid boredom to her new self, though.
    Last edited by eschmenk; 2017-08-03 at 01:57 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Is Tedd's quick acceptance of Pandora as a maternal figure sad, heartwarming, or both?

    Regardless, it's another reason for Pandora to not reset.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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