El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Lizard Lord]

Or maybe Dan just has a need for everything to work out for his characters.

Yea, this. Which I am fine with as long as it makes sense within the narrative. For example Sarah and Elliot ACTUALLY staying friends and being friendly with each other both during and after their breakup fits with the characters as we know them. However Dan even seems to acknowledge this as implausible and I don't believe it fits the characters. It just seems like he is forcing the happy ending without a good explanation. The story is not over yet, so I am still waiting for that explanation.

[Calemyr]

Yea, this. Which I am fine with as long as it makes sense within the narrative. For example Sarah and Elliot ACTUALLY staying friends and being friendly with each other both during and after their breakup fits with the characters as we know them. However Dan even seems to acknowledge this as implausible and I don't believe it fits the characters. It just seems like he is forcing the happy ending without a good explanation. The story is not over yet, so I am still waiting for that explanation.

True, but if Diane were to develop magic, wouldn't her nature give her a predilection for manipulation spells? It's kinda how she's defined herself for a long time. Unlike Susan, whose identity as a magic caster was defined by the ability to summon weapons. Sure they both have the talent for magical weapons, but only one defines herself by them. Given Diane's exposure to magic and magic beings, and the fact that nobody has actually fixed the flow of magic yet, having her wake up doesn't seem a big stretch.

I could easily see this story end with Raven (having watched this all circumspectly) accusing Zeus of using magic to help her, only for Zeus to say that kind of thing is beyond his power at this point. The magic is hers, even if she didn't intend to cast it.

[Lizard Lord]

Honestly, after rereading it a few times, it does look like the cafeteria was hit with a truth spell. What with the sudden outburst of confessions and all.

[Douglas]

There could be magic involved, but this doesn't actually seem that unlikely to me. Any guy who's dated her has personal evidence and motivation to believe her, and there are a lot of them. One such guy's immediate reaction being to believe her and angrily confront his friend (who has also lied about sleeping with her) on the subject is quite believable for me, and that strengthens the case for everyone else seeing it, kicking off a chain reaction of more confessions and escalating belief. The confessions not actually related to Diane are a bit odd, but they could just be caught up in the excitement/hype of the situation.

Everyone collectively bursting into mocking laughter at her would also have been believable to me. I think it really depended a great deal on the first noticeable reaction. The crowd was going to react strongly, one way or another, but most people would be worried about their image and not sure which way would be viewed better, and the first reaction or two gave them a deciding cue.

[Rater202]

There could be magic involved, but this doesn't actually seem that unlikely to me. Any guy who's dated her has personal evidence and motivation to believe her, and there are a lot of them. One such guy's immediate reaction being to believe her and angrily confront his friend (who has also lied about sleeping with her) on the subject is quite believable for me, and that strengthens the case for everyone else seeing it, kicking off a chain reaction of more confessions and escalating belief. The confessions not actually related to Diane are a bit odd, but they could just be caught up in the excitement/hype of the situation.

Everyone collectively bursting into mocking laughter at her would also have been believable to me. I think it really depended a great deal on the first noticeable reaction. The crowd was going to react strongly, one way or another, but most people would be worried about their image and not sure which way would be viewed better, and the first reaction or two gave them a deciding cue.

In other words, she was planning to fail her charisma check but get everyone focused on her and nat 20'd it instead.

Like Dan said in the commentary.

[Mechalich]

In other words, she was planning to fail her charisma check but get everyone focused on her and nat 20'd it instead.

Like Dan said in the commentary.

Nat 20s don't actually exist in the real world. If the author has to openly admit an outcome makes no logical sense that's an admission of bad writing. However, this sort of thing is rather rare because authors don't commonly retain plotholes they themselves spot within their own writing, because to do so is to admit to failure. If there is nothing further behind this incident then we have a case of the author openly admitting that they rewrote the backstory of an existing character in order to better satisfy their own emotional sensibilities in a blatantly implausible way. Personally, I think EGS is better than that, and I hold out hope for a better explanation.

[Rater202]

Nat 20s don't actually exist in the real world.

And this isn't the real world

EGS is a story.

and right now, it's the story of a girl who was trying to get all the mean rumors about her social group laser focused on her but accidentally did a job good enough to kill the rumors instead.

"Nat 20 charisma check" being a metaphor for that. Which should have been obvious.

As has been said, it only takes one person to believe her and confront someone else over lying to set off a chain reaction.

[Celestia]

I love how you're all debating this when there hasn't even been any context or explanation yet. Maybe try waiting for the whole thing before deciding it's terrible.

[Lizard Lord]

Yea, this. Which I am fine with as long as it makes sense within the narrative. For example Sarah and Elliot ACTUALLY staying friends and being friendly with each other both during and after their breakup fits with the characters as we know them. However Dan even seems to acknowledge this as implausible and I don't believe it fits the characters. It just seems like he is forcing the happy ending without a good explanation. The story is not over yet, so I am still waiting for that explanation.

Bolded the part were I said I was doing exactly that.

[Kish]

Does Diane have magic now and she used it?

Tara confirmed* that if Diane had magic it would be, like Susan, the ability to summon magical weapons, remember?

*Or at least implied, with "potential vampire hunter," followed up by the spider aberration saying she would be able to "summon the bane." Nothing related to her words becoming supernaturally compelling to mortals.

[Calemyr]

Tara confirmed* that if Diane had magic it would be, like Susan, the ability to summon magical weapons, remember?

*Or at least implied, with "potential vampire hunter," followed up by the spider aberration saying she would be able to "summon the bane." Nothing related to her words becoming supernaturally compelling to mortals.

She's got the Raven inborn Talent for magical weapons (thus making her a natural vampire hunter). However, magic focuses on giving people abilities that suit their identity (as best as magic's big-picture perspective can recognize anyway). Magic marks, on the other hand, rely on Talent.

Use Sarah as an example. Two immortals used two means to offer her magic. Jerry offered her a gender flipping spell because her connection to Elliot (and Tedd and Grace) left an opening for magic in her identity - until she considered that aspect of herself and removed it through honest introspection. Pandora, however, identified a powerful but deeply buried Talent that she could tie a magic mark to. (I think it's also worth considering the possibility that her interning with Tedd was an intentional effort to create a new opening in her identity for magic. By happily, even eagerly, engaging in shapeshifting experiments she might be able to mold her identity into something that could be given magic.)

Susan's understanding of magic and a great deal of her identity comes from her Talent, since the twins gave her a mark tied to it and used her as a vampire hunter when she was way too young to deal with killing a monster in human form and then provided no emotional support afterwards when she really needed it. Those deep emotional scars, along with her love of the hammer cantrip, formed major bullet points in the Cliff Notes version of her identity. So her first spell is a freeform version of the hammer.

So what are the bullet points in the Cliff Notes version of Diane's identity? I don't see her Talent being among them. She's not a fighter in any way, and seemingly never touched a weapon. Instead, she's a cheerleader with a gift for manipulation and a desire for family that was warped by repeated disappointments into a game of playing "dumb boys" for their money. So, if she was given magic via mark, she would have a "summon item" spell of some sort. If, however, she was given magic via natural awakening, such as by living in a high magic environment and then being exposed to magical spells and beasts, her first spell would be social in nature. And Pandora said people have a natural tendency to use spells they have even if they don't know they have them.

Given how over the top the reaction to her speech was, how creeped out by their reaction Diane was, and how freely Dan admits it all doesn't make sense, something special is in play. Diane having awakened without realizing it seems the most reasonable answer to my mind, being in keeping with what we know of both the setting and Diane. We'll see the truth eventually (be it two weeks from now or ten years), but for the time being it's still fun to speculate.

Edit: Also worth noting - what is probably the single most influential spell Diane has witnessed? Tengu's "spike punch" spell, which hypnotized and shapeshifted everyone who drank it into easily influenced clones of either Nanase or Noriko (we haven't seen Noriko's face to know how different they are). Including at least two people Diane truly cares about, making the event deeply personal to her. Whatever effect is making the students act so oddly feels to me to be somewhat similar to the influence half of Tengu's spell. Just putting that out there.

Edit 2: This also would work as an effective bridge between her and Adrian. As far as we know, Adrian is the only well educated mage in the school. If he witnesses or hears about this event, he may feel obligated to give his daughter the arcane "welcome wagon" treatment. You know, the whole "Yer a wizard mage, Diane. Here, have a spellbook and here's a few people who've already gone through it and can be a support group" speech. I can't think of many better avenues to break the ice between the newfound father and daughter, and it would pull her deeper into the Elliot's circle of friends.

[Forum Explorer]

If there is something weird going on with the scene (and I'm not convinced there is. As good of an idea as it would be, Dan went into the story wanting to have everyone be weirdly positive about Diane's confession, so I don't think he necessarily thought of how to make it make sense). My predicition is that it would be caused by a immortal acting under new rules allowing them to manipulate people freely.

[Vinyadan]

How about Magus? He might do some emotional magic, no idea why, though.

[Celestia]

I am so happy right now.

[Lord Raziere]

Thats a pointed border on that panel. So. That Really Happened and not just was an imagination dream whatever. I'm happy for Lucy and Diane. Its sudden but after a romantic line like "you'll always be my light" there are few ways more sweet to respond than a kiss.

[Braininthejar2]

Broke my suspension of disbelief. That planet is headed towards a depopulation crysis.

[Lord Raziere]

Broke my suspension of disbelief. That planet is headed towards a depopulation crysis.

Okay, wow, there is a lot to unpack in that statement. but I'll stick to pointing these things out:

1. the way real life genetic engineering is getting along, heterosexuality may someday be more of an option than a requirement.

2. El Goonish Shive setting has the uyuom egg now it requires two uryuoms to produce enough shell to do this, but like anything in science, its just a matter of finding the right building blocks and the right process to make it artificially. point is, there is already a method established in comic long ago by which Lucy and Diane may reproduce.

3. Tedd could probably figure out a way with enough transformation power and time. he/she certainly is going to get the funding for it.

4. EGS Earth just got a bunch of magic systems let loose both old and new which may provide even MORE ways to circumvent the usual birds and bees.

5. there is no indication of the wider world somehow magically becoming gay as well. Susan is still attracted to Elliot, and Tedd and Grace no matter what one says is the nature of their attraction the end result is that they are still capable of reproducing no matter which sex they decide to be at the time. this is a comic about personal relationships anyways, so it doesn't really say or impact anything about the wider world of that setting.

6. it wouldn't even be the only webcomic to explore this sort of thing: Homestuck's ectobiology and prominent lgbt status to the point of being a "gay singularity" also did this, even if the uryuom egg predates the start of that comic by six years.

7. you misspelled crisis

[Mechalich]

My reaction to this event, and to this whole subplot generally, has been disappointment. The overall development is that Diane is revealed to have been exactly as awful a person as earlier strips implied, but her confession results not only in everyone believing and forgiving her - which is the exact opposite of what should have happened - but her fortuitously finding love at the same time. It's one thing to protect characters from too much hardship, it's another to reward them when they should be receiving a comeuppance.

Also, it's hard to care overmuch about the romantic situation involving a character at such a vast distance from the core story. The Diane/Lucy relationship is possibly even less relevant than the Rhoda/Catalina relationship and that one did not have a side story specifically devoted to it.

Broke my suspension of disbelief. That planet is headed towards a depopulation crysis.

That's not something that bothers me. Instead it's more that EGS is gradually drifting into being an explicitly LBGTQ advocacy piece, rather than a wacky gender-bender mystic weirdness urban fantasy and while that's perfectly okay as a thing to do, frankly the latter is more suited to the established themes of the work. Changing what your story is midstream almost never goes well (though I sympathize with the challenges of writing the same story for decades).

The whole 'Legend of Diane' plot has actually been very serious - possibly the most serious plotline in whole blasted comic, certainly the most serious this decade - and yet its been one of the weakest in terms of properly conveying emotions. If you're going to have serious drama you need to let people get hurt - and this plotline was begging for Diane to take some real wounds - if you're not prepared to do that, then keep things soundly in the comedic zone.

[Forum Explorer]

The whole 'Legend of Diane' plot has actually been very serious - possibly the most serious plotline in whole blasted comic, certainly the most serious this decade - and yet its been one of the weakest in terms of properly conveying emotions. If you're going to have serious drama you need to let people get hurt - and this plotline was begging for Diane to take some real wounds - if you're not prepared to do that, then keep things soundly in the comedic zone.

That sums up pretty much my entire problem with Dan's style of writing. If you want things to be serious (and that's on any level, not just emotional drama), then you need to allow characters to get hurt. Otherwise it falls flat.

[Braininthejar2]

Thank you for putting my feelings into words. That sounds much better than the way I put it.

[Rater202]

"If you would like a version of this story in which things ultimately go unrequited, please consider Justin and Elliot, Catalina and Susan, and Susan and Justin

He uh... He's got a point.

[Celestia]

6. it wouldn't even be the only webcomic to explore this sort of thing: Homestuck's ectobiology and prominent lgbt status to the point of being a "gay singularity" also did this, even if the uryuom egg predates the start of that comic by six years.

In Sister Claire, Word of God in one of the author commentaries confirms that there are literally zero characters in the comic that fall into the category of "cisgender heterosexual." *nod*

[halfeye]

In Sister Claire, Word of God in one of the author commentaries confirms that there are literally zero characters in the comic that fall into the category of "cisgender heterosexual." *nod*

And that's realistic? I mean, I suspect gay/bi goes as high as 20%, maybe 25% with a push, but in the year 2018 99.99% of us were born of parents who were actively heterosexual at least once in their lives.

[Yuki Akuma]

Screw realism. This is a fantasy comic, so let the author write the fantasy he wants to write.

[halfeye]

Screw realism. This is a fantasy comic, so let the author write the fantasy he wants to write.

Fine.

Ye who enter here, abandon all critical thought. Probably for the best all around.

[John Cribati]

Some are born straight, some achieve straightness, but most of us have straightness thrust upon us.

[halfeye]

Some are born straight, some achieve straightness, but most of us have straightness thrust upon us.

I think that's an overestimate. Most gays, maybe, but of the straights overall, nope.

[John Cribati]

Being completely straight isn't as common as it's portrayed, first of all. Second, it's more realistic than you'd think that a bunch of LGBTQ+ kids to be in a friend group, even before a lot of them knew that about themselves.

Finally, If Shive wants to toss a bucket of LGBT into the vast ocean of media where most of the important characters are straight and cisgender, I'm not going to stop him.

[Celestia]

And that's realistic? I mean, I suspect gay/bi goes as high as 20%, maybe 25% with a push, but in the year 2018 99.99% of us were born of parents who were actively heterosexual at least once in their lives.

The comic has literal magic; the realism ship sailed off long ago.

Screw realism. This is a fantasy comic, so let the author write the fantasy he wants to write.

Absolutely not! You can only write the fantasy that random people on the internet want you to write.

Finally, If Shive wants to toss a bucket of LGBT into the vast ocean of media where most of the important characters are straight and cisgender, I'm not going to stop him.

More like a drop than a bucket and more like the elemental plane of water than an ocean.

[Rater202]

As Long as Dan doesn't get needlessly political about it, doesn't become volitile, and so on this isn't hurting anybody.

and since Dan consistently shows the objectification and mistreatment of anyone regardless or sex, gender identity, race, or other as a bad thing, I don't think there's gonna be any risk of that anytime soon.

Diane had been set up as being potentially attracted to women as far back as Not Tengu for complaining about her acting on it now is missing the boat by several years.