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  1. - Top - End - #1261
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    IIRC, with the changes to magic a transformation that someone really wants may extend indefinitely, and if it goes on for long enough it will become permanent. Conversely, an unwanted enchantment will burn off quicker. Which allows for permanent changes with significantly lowered abuse potential.
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  2. - Top - End - #1262
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    http://egscomics.com/comic/2018-02-21 the page after specifies that old magic (as in the old magic that can now be used again not the old system) can be used to permanently transform unwilling but the current not.
    Last edited by Ibrinar; 2018-11-13 at 03:05 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1263
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    http://egscomics.com/comic/2018-02-21 the page after specifies that old magic (as in the old magic that can now be used again not the old system) can be used to permanently transform unwilling but the current not.
    Old system and I believe two ways with the modern system (wanting it long enough and whatever Tedd figured out). I forgot the 'wanting it long enough' bit, that makes it a lot less problematic (just make a device that can transform for a minute or two and people can have their permanent changes without as much ability for abuse).
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  4. - Top - End - #1264
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    So any secret revelations will come after magic has not changed. So Sarah can just bum a magic wand off Tedd.

    Also I too find that my unwritten fictional stories are always awesome when I never have to fill in any of the details.
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  5. - Top - End - #1265
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Old system and I believe two ways with the modern system (wanting it long enough and whatever Tedd figured out). I forgot the 'wanting it long enough' bit, that makes it a lot less problematic (just make a device that can transform for a minute or two and people can have their permanent changes without as much ability for abuse).
    Enchantments can now be permanent, if the target wants them enough. Permanent transformations were already possible, but those weren't enchantments.
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  6. - Top - End - #1266
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Fridge-logic nitpicking of Sam and Sarah's movie plot:

    • Protagonist travels to several different places, notes compass readings, and triangulates location of treasure without actually visiting it

    • Trusted associate goes and gets treasure while protagonist leads bad guys on wild goose chase.

    • Movie is over in twenty minu...damn. Your friend STILL betrayed you, didn't they? You had one job, protagonist: out of seven billion humans, find just one who isn't a traitor.

    • Well, you had two jobs. The other was trigonometry. So I guess you score one-for-two.

    • Anyway, go catch the traitor. Piece of cake; you've still got two hours of run-time left.


    Second-stage fridge logic:

    • That glowing thing isn't really a compass, is it? It's the Lamp of Diogenes.

  7. - Top - End - #1267
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    In EGS:NP, I know Dan said the color-blindness isn't related to being a gecko, but maybe they could have picked an animal that can't see more colors than humans (even in the dark) instead.
    Last edited by Lissou; 2018-11-16 at 08:59 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #1268
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mucat View Post
    Fridge-logic nitpicking of Sam and Sarah's movie plot:

    • Protagonist travels to several different places, notes compass readings, and triangulates location of treasure without actually visiting it

    • Trusted associate goes and gets treasure while protagonist leads bad guys on wild goose chase.

    • Movie is over in twenty minu...damn. Your friend STILL betrayed you, didn't they? You had one job, protagonist: out of seven billion humans, find just one who isn't a traitor.

    • Well, you had two jobs. The other was trigonometry. So I guess you score one-for-two.

    • Anyway, go catch the traitor. Piece of cake; you've still got two hours of run-time left.


    Second-stage fridge logic:

    • That glowing thing isn't really a compass, is it? It's the Lamp of Diogenes.
    I think both setting up the plot and actually going to the different places in order to triangulate the location of the treasure WHILE the bad guys are on her tail can take up way more than 20 minutes of run time; especially if it is a fantasy world that has wandering monsters in it.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2018-11-18 at 04:08 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #1269
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    In EGS:NP, I know Dan said the color-blindness isn't related to being a gecko, but maybe they could have picked an animal that can't see more colors than humans (even in the dark) instead.
    Yeah, like a bird! Wait, no. A butterfly! Crap, not that either. Um...a bee? Darn. I'm not good at this, am I?
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  10. - Top - End - #1270
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    I think both setting up the plot and actually going to the different places in order to triangulate the location of the treasure WHILE the bad guys are on her tail can take up way more than 20 minutes of run time; especially if it is a fantasy world that has wondering monsters in it.
    Damn...you're right.

    I guess I was thinking that instead of following her easily-trackable-by-bad-guys compass toward the treasure, she could head off in a random, boring, non-plot-critical direction. Make direction readings all along the trip, triangulate the actual treasure location in a whiteboard trigonometry montage, and inform her Perfectly Trustworthy Comrade. PTC could then go get the treasure at his/her leisure, since the bad guys' tracking gizmos only target the protagonist.

    But I forgot to think like Elan. Once Protagonist heads out on some path, it's no longer a random, boring, non-plot-critical direction. It's the direction she actually went, and all sorts of complicated dangerous stuff will happen there. And then after she deals with all that, PTC is still gonna betray her.

    Poor Protagonist. I hope it's a particularly shiny treasure, after all the improbable crap she'll have to endure for it...
    Last edited by mucat; 2018-11-16 at 11:57 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1271
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mucat View Post
    Damn...you're right.

    I guess I was thinking that instead of following her easily-trackable-by-bad-guys compass toward the treasure, she could head off in a random, boring, non-plot-critical direction. Make direction readings all along the trip, triangulate the actual treasure location in a whiteboard trigonometry montage, and inform her Perfectly Trustworthy Comrade. PTC could then go get the treasure at his/her leisure, since the bad guys' tracking gizmos only target the protagonist.

    But I forgot to think like Elan. Once Protagonist heads out on some path, it's no longer a random, boring, non-plot-critical direction. It's the direction she actually went, and all sorts of complicated dangerous stuff will happen there. And then after she deals with all that, PTC is still gonna betray her.

    Poor Protagonist. I hope it's a particularly shiny treasure, after all the improbable crap she'll have to endure for it...
    The bad guys could track her just as well while she's trying to travel far enough to triangulate, though. And they might catch up to her while she's waiting for PTC to go get the thing, too, and then she's got to deal with them while down one friend.

    Also, the treasure might be mobile, or sufficiently inconspicuous that the compass is necessary to pick it out from environmental miscellany at close range.
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  12. - Top - End - #1272
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Yeah, like a bird! Wait, no. A butterfly! Crap, not that either. Um...a bee? Darn. I'm not good at this, am I?
    Hehe. Yeah. I think a cat could have worked (they're pretty agile) or some insect, but that may have been decided against due to being (potentially) less cute and more creepy. Still, most mammals can't see as well as humans and many can climb (and some can fly), so I think there were options.

    The gecko is adorable though.

  13. - Top - End - #1273
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I'm puzzled that anyone is looking for a form that would be both able to climb and color-blind; I thought it entirely deliberate that the color-blindness didn't go with the form (and thus had to be a deliberate and separate change).

  14. - Top - End - #1274
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'm puzzled that anyone is looking for a form that would be both able to climb and color-blind; I thought it entirely deliberate that the color-blindness didn't go with the form (and thus had to be a deliberate and separate change).
    Dan actually confirms that is indeed a separate change in his comments below the comic.

    So. your right? does no one even know how explanation obsessed Dan is? if you have any comments about a comic he makes, he probably has already responded to it in his own comment below it or in the comment he makes in the next comic.
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  15. - Top - End - #1275
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Dan actually confirms that is indeed a separate change in his comments below the comic.

    So. your right? does no one even know how explanation obsessed Dan is? if you have any comments about a comic he makes, he probably has already responded to it in his own comment below it or in the comment he makes in the next comic.
    To me, the commentary is just part of the comic. Dan sometimes has troubles with visual storytelling and, this, supplements with overt descriptions. It's one of the things I do find irritating about this comic, but it's not a big enough issue for me to drop it.
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  16. - Top - End - #1276
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    On the one hand, I agree that the "ohno someone might misunderstand I have to clarify in the commentary" thing is kind of irritating.

    On the other hand, we have people right here brushing off the explanation and talking about how geckos shouldn't be colorblind.

    So yeah.

  17. - Top - End - #1277
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Keep in mind that a good chunk of Dan's commentary happens becuase he just knows based on history that going to be getting emails/tweets/text/comments on other sites telling him that X is wrong or asking for explanations of Y when it's all gonna get clarrified in the net page or something.

    Trust me, I can relate: I once had to respond to somebody commenting on FFN that the PoV character's opinions on the people who were regulars at the shooting gallery where she learned gun safty were not my own view on firearm enthusiests and that regardless her city isn't exactly typical when it comes to firearm owners.
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  18. - Top - End - #1278
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Yeah, like a bird! Wait, no. A butterfly! Crap, not that either. Um...a bee? Darn. I'm not good at this, am I?
    A robotic monkey! Everyone knows that robots don't have human qualia for color, and instead just get a bunch of hexadecimal numbers shoved into each pixel.

    Wait what am I talking about again?
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  19. - Top - End - #1279
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    It's one of the things I do find irritating about this comic, but it's not a big enough issue for me to drop it.
    You're still apparently reading Star Power. I'm pretty sure EGS isn't even close to that.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2018-11-18 at 01:41 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #1280
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    On the one hand, I agree that the "ohno someone might misunderstand I have to clarify in the commentary" thing is kind of irritating.

    On the other hand, we have people right here brushing off the explanation and talking about how geckos shouldn't be colorblind.

    So yeah.
    Well, thanks to his commentary, we know he doesn't think geckos are colorblind. Doesn't mean we can't talk about whether she should have become another animal :P And I do think comics should work on their own. I enjoy the commentary for some behind the scenes, or to get links to relevant scenes and start reading the whole thing again, but it shouldn't be required reading.
    Seems to me, if he knew that was going to be something people noticed, instead of adding a commentary saying "I know geckos aren't colorblind", he could have changed the comic so that it wouldn't need this kind of disclaimer :P

  21. - Top - End - #1281
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    Well, thanks to his commentary, we know he doesn't think geckos are colorblind. Doesn't mean we can't talk about whether she should have become another animal :P And I do think comics should work on their own. I enjoy the commentary for some behind the scenes, or to get links to relevant scenes and start reading the whole thing again, but it shouldn't be required reading.
    Seems to me, if he knew that was going to be something people noticed, instead of adding a commentary saying "I know geckos aren't colorblind", he could have changed the comic so that it wouldn't need this kind of disclaimer :P
    Obviously the colorblindess is part of the puzzle- a quality of the room rather than her gecko form.

    EDIT: Or just a second enchantment. Which may or may not be the same thing but whatever.
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2018-11-18 at 08:40 PM.

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  22. - Top - End - #1282
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    Well, thanks to his commentary, we know he doesn't think geckos are colorblind. Doesn't mean we can't talk about whether she should have become another animal :P And I do think comics should work on their own. I enjoy the commentary for some behind the scenes, or to get links to relevant scenes and start reading the whole thing again, but it shouldn't be required reading.
    Seems to me, if he knew that was going to be something people noticed, instead of adding a commentary saying "I know geckos aren't colorblind", he could have changed the comic so that it wouldn't need this kind of disclaimer :P
    See, that's exactly what I'm talking about--you're clinging to the idea that having Nanase turn into a gecko is a mistake.

    I agree that he shouldn't bother with the commentary explanations--because I think the comic would be stronger if he was willing to just shrug and let people who make incorrect assumptions (such as, in this case, "this must mean that he thinks geckos are color-blind!") deal with those assumptions themselves.

  23. - Top - End - #1283
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Obviously the colorblindess is part of the puzzle- a quality of the room rather than her gecko form.

    EDIT: Or just a second enchantment. Which may or may not be the same thing but whatever.
    I don't find that obvious, though. I only know that because of the commentary. I feel it should be clearer from the comic, either by having the two happen at separate times or otherwise by picking an animal that's colorblind in the first place.

  24. - Top - End - #1284
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    frown Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    See, that's exactly what I'm talking about--you're clinging to the idea that having Nanase turn into a gecko is a mistake.

    I agree that he shouldn't bother with the commentary explanations--because I think the comic would be stronger if he was willing to just shrug and let people who make incorrect assumptions (such as, in this case, "this must mean that he thinks geckos are color-blind!") deal with those assumptions themselves.
    There's something to be said for just doing what you want without caring what other people think, especially in the creative arts, but there's also something to be said for presenting things in a clear and concise way, especially in storytelling. Dan shouldn't try to change his work to appease the segment of the audience that will never be happy anyways, but he should still endeavor to make his work understandable enough that it can stand on it's own without requisite explanation in the commentary.

    As for the gecko/colorblind thing, I do think he should have picked something else. It doesn't matter if people think he's stupid for seemingly not knowing that geckos aren't colorblind, but it does matter that he could potentially spread misinformation. There are lots of people (like me), who don't have an encyclopedic understanding of animal visual capabilities, but I'm expecting that if it becomes relevant to a story, the author did some research on the subject. When I read this comic, it made me believe that geckos were colorblind until I saw the commentary and was corrected, and that shouldn't happen.
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  25. - Top - End - #1285
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    I don't find that obvious, though. I only know that because of the commentary. I feel it should be clearer from the comic, either by having the two happen at separate times or otherwise by picking an animal that's colorblind in the first place.
    I was specifically responding to the people who were wondering why the gecko form is colorblind if the author has admitted that he knows geckos aren't really colorblind. Guess I should have made that clearer.
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2018-11-19 at 06:31 AM.

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  26. - Top - End - #1286
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I'm not sure why it would be in the comic that Geckos aren't colorblind. He could have lampshaded it, but why? I don't think Nanse or Sarah are herpetologists.
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  27. - Top - End - #1287
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    I don't find that obvious, though. I only know that because of the commentary. I feel it should be clearer from the comic, either by having the two happen at separate times or otherwise by picking an animal that's colorblind in the first place.
    Which animal?

    It's mostly mammals which are colour-blind (which is odd, in some ways, but not that relevant), so squirrel (he already has one)? maybe mouse (don't really walk upside down across ceilings that much)? weasel (as mouse not known for walking on ceilings)?

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  28. - Top - End - #1288
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    If the spell can turn you into a gecko, I don't see why it couldn't turn you into a red-green colorblind one. Humans aren't usually colorblind yet I know one who is.
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  29. - Top - End - #1289
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I feel like Dan could do with a sounding board for ideas. All he needed to avoid this confusion he saw coming was show two distinct effects. Perhaps a ray that hits the eyes and the result being colour blindness.

  30. - Top - End - #1290
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Or there is the variant where the commentary under the comic could have come from the characters "geckos are not color blind I assume it is a separate enchantment to ensure two people are necessary" formulate that better and the characters can simply say it. I think he sometimes uses the commentary as a bit of a crutch for some things that could have easily been part of the comic. But it doesn't bother me all that much.

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