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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Sarah herself has claimed to not be fully heterosexual (like a 1 on the Kinsey scale if I remember right) but I can't really find the comic she talks about that in.

    But seriously, it would be very strange for Sarah to be bothered by Sam being a boy who was born with the wrong dangly bits.
    She mentions "one on the Kinsey Scale" at the most when Larry misunderstands her explanation of why she doens'rt like him hitting on her and calls her a lesbian in an "I'm this at the most" and then claims to be a one on the Kinsey scale outright("or still a one") in the "MV5" NP arc... which interstingly enough takes place before the Card Tournment.

    Regardless, MV5 heavily implies that Sarah is in denial because she is clearly strongly attracted to both Ellen and Grace. I'm not saying she's "Totes Bi" on the example scale, but she's higher than a one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    I won't exclude the possibility that that is how it will go but that sounds like a terrible idea when dealing with a intelligent power that makes the new rules.
    Not only is Tedd a Seer, but he's, per Pandora(who presumably learned from Heka) prodigious at the abilities of a Seer.

    And the one thing that's consistent, through all the reveals about the nature and functionality of his tech, is that Tedd is a genious when it comes to magic-items and alien technology.

    If anybody can threaten to keep bringing back and exposing magic until it agrees to stop changing, it'd be Tedd.

    Especially if Pandora helps(depending on how her refreshing works, when she does it, and how much of her magical knowledge she keeps)
    Last edited by Rater202; 2017-09-29 at 10:21 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I don't think anyone here thought Sam was FtM, just that Sarah might misunderstand as such.
    FtM means? I for one think that Sam is a person with female bits who wants to have male bits.

    I don't understand why you think Sarah, despite not being a bigot, would thus... turn down Sam? Not even sure what the verb is here. What does whether or not Sarah is trans have to do with anything?
    I'm pretty sure no-one has previously suggested Sarah is trans.

    "I don't know", that's how I feel about sex and gender in general, I find it all confusing. I read bits of:

    http://www.wildflowerslgbt.ca/comics/

    and I don't understand that, I haven't read the most recent ones, because it's been walls of text.

    It seems that sometimes that trans people get changed, then hook up with people of the sex they changed to, I don't understand whether that is usual?

    In short, it's complicated and I know I don't understand.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    FtM means? I for one think that Sam is a person with female bits who wants to have male bits.



    I'm pretty sure no-one has previously suggested Sarah is trans.

    "I don't know", that's how I feel about sex and gender in general, I find it all confusing. I read bits of:

    http://www.wildflowerslgbt.ca/comics/

    and I don't understand that, I haven't read the most recent ones, because it's been walls of text.

    It seems that sometimes that trans people get changed, then hook up with people of the sex they changed to, I don't understand whether that is usual?

    In short, it's complicated and I know I don't understand.
    FtM is female-to-male, assigned-female-at-birth, et cetera.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    FtM is female-to-male, assigned-female-at-birth, et cetera.
    That's what my first thought was, but then this didn't seem to make much sense:

    I don't think anyone here thought Sam was FtM, just that Sarah might misunderstand as such.
    I'm certainly saying I think Sam is FtM, and I thought Douglas was saying that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    She mentions "one on the Kinsey Scale" at the most when Larry misunderstands her explanation of why she doens'rt like him hitting on her and calls her a lesbian in an "I'm this at the most"
    She says "I'm at most a two"

    http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1921

    Is that out of five? ten? I'm not aware of the Kinsey scale, I've heard of the report as something sexy that some people wanted to ban, but I've never read it.

    One reason for thinking that Sarah might not end up with Sam is all the work Larry is trying to do in that card tournament, he starts off very badly, but he's trying to improve.

    http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1950
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Well the Kinsey Scale has a... Well, less than favorable description of bisexuality, but the gist of it is this:

    Spoiler: Potential large image
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    The image is also missing the "X" for asexuality, which was added later.

    Also from what I understand, "FtM" (along with "MtF") has fallen out of favor as a descriptor among the transgender community.
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2017-09-29 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Kinsey Scale is rated 0-6, though recently it's also involved an X(For totes Ace)

    0 is completely and utterly hetero and 6 is completely and utterly homo.

    1 and 5 are curious about one but for the most part exclusive to the other, or else incidental attraction.

    2-4 are various degrees of Bi... though I'm not 100% sure but I think 3 might be better described as Pan.(Pan is "don't care if male or female, right? I'm honestly not sure what the differance between pan and bi is.")

    Topic Change: I would really like it if the story went into a "Greg's dojo for Magically Gifted Youngsters" route.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2017-09-29 at 10:57 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    (Pan is "don't care if male or female, right? I'm honestly not sure what the differance between pan and bi is.")
    Heck if I know if I'm right (in this context "right" meaning "applies to a plurality"), but as I understand it, bi is "attracted to both males and females due at least in part to the characteristics that make them female or male", whilst pan is attracted to individuals of either sex, but not due to those same characteristics. So if boobs/beards/bums are an important component of your sexual drive, you are closer to bi than pan.

    I have found it helps me to switch to a characteristic I personally don't particularly care for. In my case, hair colour. If we drew lines dividing those attracted to blond(e)/redhead/brown/black/etc. and gave each names, some people might be blond(e)-exclusive, others brown-exclusive, and others may like the whole range of colours. And then there are people who just don't get why the hair colour is relevant to this sexual attraction thing, and thus are pan (for the purposes of classifying sexual attraction based on hair colour).

    Or I might be completely wrong. I frequently have been, when attempting to understand sexual attraction classification schemes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Kinsey Scale is rated 0-6
    So that's were Ritchie got arrays start at element 0 from!

    A seven point scale numbered 0 to 6, I hate the numbering.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    So that's were Ritchie got arrays start at element 0 from!

    A seven point scale numbered 0 to 6, I hate the numbering.
    What kind of rulers did you use at school? Because mine started at 0. Scales starting at 0 are perfectly normal and commonplace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Spoiler: Off topic Bi vs Pan
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    Bi vs Pan is (iirc) a touchy topic in the LGBTQ+ community. Some of the contention being related to "Bi" harking back to the outdated binary gender model, suggesting that most "Bi" people are actually "Pan". Of course, there is a "Ashley" vs "Tedd" debate over if a division between the two terms is useful for cases such as the ones described in Grey_Wolf's post.

    One more definition I know of is that Pan people are also attracted to non-binary/agender/trans* people. While I believe this definition to be problematic for reasons not necessary for discussion in this thread, it might be useful for "academic prosperity?".

    Of course, I don't claim to be an expert on LGBTQ+ terminology, and subscribe to more of an "Ashley" philosophy myself, but I hope this helps.

    Any more questions can probably be asked in our LGBTQ+ questions thread in Friendly banter, if you're curious.


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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    What kind of rulers did you use at school? Because mine started at 0. Scales starting at 0 are perfectly normal and commonplace.

    GW
    Scales yes, fine and normal, I wouldn't have them any other way. Arrays, and containers that start from a container 0 are dire, if you look at a row of something, the first item is the first, item number one, and the second item should be item two, that's what the name "second" comes from (I am not talking about the unit of time, I don't know how the name for that derives).
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Scales yes, fine and normal, I wouldn't have them any other way. Arrays, and containers that start from a container 0 are dire, if you look at a row of something, the first item is the first, item number one, and the second item should be item two, that's what the name "second" comes from
    The initial item is 0 containers from the start, the next one is 1 container from the start, etc. Perfectly logical. Very useful if all you know is the size of the container and its relative position. You then just multiply its number by the length of the container, and measure from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    (I am not talking about the unit of time, I don't know how the name for that derives).
    Hours are divided into "small chunks" (minuta, as in "small") of successive orders: the starting order are prime minutes, then secunda pars minuta ("second diminished part"). Introduced by the French just prior to the French Revolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The initial item is 0 containers from the start, the next one is 1 container from the start, etc. Perfectly logical. Very useful if all you know is the size of the container and its relative position. You then just multiply its number by the length of the container, and measure from the start.
    Off by one, if you have the numbers in sequence in them.

    Consider your ruler example, it's a scale, so it starts at zero, but the first centimetre or inch is contained in the first container of the array.

    That Kinsey thing might be right as a scale, but as a set of pidgeon holes (which it also very much is), it's off by one.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2017-09-29 at 01:34 PM.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Off by one, if you have the numbers in sequence in them.
    Sure, and if you have the numbers in backwards, they will be off by much more. Which supports your claim that the numbering system is wrong, how, precisely? Other than in this weird fringe case where you use containers to store an ordered sequence of numbers and you somehow feel you should have them in the same container that has the number and you are opposed to storing the number 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Consider your ruler example, it's a scale, so it starts at zero, but the first centimetre or inch is contained in the first container of the array.
    This example makes no sense. A ruler's first centimeter is centimeter 0. Its second centimeter is centimeter 1. That's how rulers work.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    That Kinsey thing might be right as a scale, but as a set of pidgeon holes, it's off by one.
    No, it is not. Sexual attraction descriptions are not numbers and therefore cannot be off by one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    Spoiler: Off topic Bi vs Pan
    Show
    Bi vs Pan is (iirc) a touchy topic in the LGBTQ+ community. Some of the contention being related to "Bi" harking back to the outdated binary gender model, suggesting that most "Bi" people are actually "Pan". Of course, there is a "Ashley" vs "Tedd" debate over if a division between the two terms is useful for cases such as the ones described in Grey_Wolf's post.

    One more definition I know of is that Pan people are also attracted to non-binary/agender/trans* people. While I believe this definition to be problematic for reasons not necessary for discussion in this thread, it might be useful for "academic prosperity?".

    Of course, I don't claim to be an expert on LGBTQ+ terminology, and subscribe to more of an "Ashley" philosophy myself, but I hope this helps.

    Any more questions can probably be asked in our LGBTQ+ questions thread in Friendly banter, if you're curious.
    An even more important thing is that we don't have real psychological or physiological evidence that bi- or pansexuality are distinct things. So the semantic argument might be as meaningfull as arguing whether a color is "strawberry red" or "lingonberry red".
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    An even more important thing is that we don't have real psychological or physiological evidence that bi- or pansexuality are distinct things.
    We don't?

    *ten characters required*
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    As far as I know, no.
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    to grow old and wither and die."

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Option 3: Tedd/Tedd's Secret Identity says on live Telivision that his power is understanding how magic works, that magic might change, but he'll keep bringing it back as many times as he has to until magic agrees to play by what he considers fair rules. something something hidden purpose/something something Tedd's actually capable of bringing it back/something something Magic's inner drama geek squeels about how cool it is, it works.

    EGS is now a full unmasked World setting, Arthur and Voltaire are pissed off, setting up the possibility of further conflift down the line, and if Tedd isn't using a secret identity Noriko might comeback becuase Tedd's a super-wizard.

    Massive shake-up to the status quo, it's now full-fledged urban fantasy/superheroes setting with SoL elements instead of the other way around.


    I repeat, we had an entire storyline about what spells Ellen had and Dan went out of his way to establish that all the spells Rhoda used in the one NP were canon. Dan is not going to flush alll of that down the toilet, that's not the kind of author he is.

    (Especially since the show off Ellen's spells were done concurrently with Sister 3. There would be no point of showing us that if Ellen was never going to get to use them in canon.)

    And Magus' plan is set to come to fruition this arc, and that's dependant on both the Dewitchery Diamond and Ellen's version of FV5, both of which would stop working if Magic changed.

    We still don't know jack about Lord Tedd. Noriko is still out there. We don't know if Sarah is going to end up with Sam or in a Trio with Grace and Tedd. Tedd still wants to find a way to use magic to help everyone. Dan promised us more stuff with Kitty and Transwoman-Submissive friend who wants to be her pet catgirl.(I forgot her name)

    All that that is stuff that can be done without magic changing. A lot of it will get harder to do if magic changes.
    That is entirely dependent on what the hidden function of a Seer is. It could be anything from being part of the process to choosing how magic works, to becoming the new will of magic itself. Either way would likely result in what you are suggesting, which honestly would work for me.


    I know he's not going to flush all that away, I just don't think that's a good attitude to have.


    I don't know what your point is there, that there are a lot of plot lines left to cover? Yes, there are. I don't see how changing magic is relevant to that, other then how it will change those plotlines. It getting harder isn't a bad thing from our perspective. It might even be a good thing.

    Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.

    Also I hope we don't get more stuff with Kitty. Why can't one note characters remain one note? There are already a ton of characters to handle, and stuff like Larry in the card game arc simply slows things down, in a comic with an already snailish pacing. Particularly when it's about a character that nobody particularly likes! Seriously, how many comics did we waste on Larry in that arc? For someone who has no relevance to the main cast at the start of the arc, and still has no relevance by the end of it. Larry could never show up in the comic again, and nothing would change, because he does not matter!
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I don't know what your point is there, that there are a lot of plot lines left to cover? Yes, there are. I don't see how changing magic is relevant to that, other then how it will change those plotlines. It getting harder isn't a bad thing from our perspective. It might even be a good thing.
    There are enough plotlines left to cover that we don't need to add magic resetting and that plotline(a plotline that would take years to resolve, and we're just finally getting plot points from the original sister finished and it's not in Dan's nature to just drop everything and resolve one plotline asap.)

    And when I say it would be harder to do plotlines if magic reset, I'm saying it would be harder for Dan to realistically write and resolve those pltlines if the magic changes: There are two results, for example, or Noriko coming back. 1: She and Tedd reconcile or 2: She's a total bitch and Tedd decides he wants nothing to do with her.

    If she has no magical powers because Magic reset and Tedd is only of the only people who still have spells and can teach people the new magic, then... If she tries to reconile, then how can we know it's genuine? And even if it is, Tedd still having powers(powers far greater than her own, powers she abandoned him for for lacking) will come up and will taint the perceptions.

    That storyline works best if Noriko is still a wizard because then we'll actually know when it's resolved.

    Or Lord Tedd. What if Magic never changed in Lord Tedd's reality, if Magic changed the main reality, you'd have two different systems of magic from two realities and Dan, who has detailes rules for how thigns like transformations work and the differances between enchantments and other transformations and the like, would get bogged down in trying to figure out how that interacted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.
    Most magic systems in most works are like that. Do you want Dresden's system of magic to suddenly change? Harry Potter's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Also I hope we don't get more stuff with Kitty. Why can't one-note characters remain one note? There are already a ton of characters to handle, and stuff like Larry in the card game arc simply slows things down, in a comic with an already snailish pacing. Particularly when it's about a character that nobody particularly likes! Seriously, how many comics did we waste on Larry in that arc? For someone who has no relevance to the main cast at the start of the arc, and still has no relevance by the end of it. Larry could never show up in the comic again, and nothing would change, because he does not matter!
    Becuase El Goonish Shive is a character based work in a living, detailed world.

    Besides, Rich and Larry are established as being part of the "Comic Shop Crowd" so it made sense for them to be present at an event at the comic shop, and if Dan can use that to create a narrative where a jerk realizes he's a jerk and tries to better himself, why shouldn't he?

    Dan likes doing side stories and running arcs. If him doing side stories and running arcs keeps him motivated, then I'm willing to read what he writes. Even if I don't like it, chances are...

    Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

    If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

    And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.
    That's the way Dan Shive likes transformation to be, and since the majority of magic in this comic is transformation based, that's never going away.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

    If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

    And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.
    I agree with all of this, I just finished my second Undertale fan fiction so I can get back to my Pokemon fan fic. and there is nothing wrong with having a consistent magic system that works.

    every time a reboot happens, more continuity is just created that screws things up even more. you want an alt version of the character, make elseworlds type of stories, those are where the good storytelling is at. Just, completely different continuity, different situation, no need to tie it to the rest, and think of the character less as one tied to a specific story, and more of as a character could be in many stories based on what choices could be made about them. then you can compare one version of the character to another, like Superman to Red Son Superman. you can mine so much out of comparing the two.

    like, a vast majority of these power level and continuity problems today could be solved just by going "ok, two different versions of hero, they have nothing to do with each other, don't attempt to connect the two ever." street level Batman? nothing to do with justice league batman, they just live in parallel universes where the rules are completely different, simple as that. would solve so much, because then, there would be no inconsistency between issues and stories, just say that each story is its own self-contained story with no relation and suddenly, bam, no need to keep track, no need for continuity, just make the whole superhero thing episodic. superheroes work best when they are tailored to a specific story.

    of course that doesn't work for EGS since its all about relationships and character development, so I'd just say keep the magic in the comic the same, but if someone wanted the change to happen, I'd just say they should go write their own EGS fan fic where it does and detail their own new magic system if they think they can do better. thats the logic behind me making a pokemon fan fic. don't bother the author about it, get creating and if you like making fan fics because they're unoriginal but like EGS and think it needs improvements, then make an original world based on EGS that is better! demonstrate your logic! show don't tell! its not a challenge, you don't need to do it, but come on you might have fun doing it, you might learn something, its a good exercise regardless, and no one listens to "X is better because of reasons" arguments anyways, just accept and acknowledge that people like things the way they like things, and that liking one thing won't stop them from liking another and that sometimes your just proposing a different thing and not a better thing.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Most magic systems in most works are like that. Do you want Dresden's system of magic to suddenly change? Harry Potter's?

    Becuase El Goonish Shive is a character based work in a living, detailed world.

    Besides, Rich and Larry are established as being part of the "Comic Shop Crowd" so it made sense for them to be present at an event at the comic shop, and if Dan can use that to create a narrative where a jerk realizes he's a jerk and tries to better himself, why shouldn't he?

    Dan likes doing side stories and running arcs. If him doing side stories and running arcs keeps him motivated, then I'm willing to read what he writes. Even if I don't like it, chances are...

    Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

    If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

    And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.
    Dresden's has changed slightly over the years. Though more importantly, it is actually risky. Dresden's personality and very being is at risk simply due to the powers he wields. And there are still plenty of mysteries in magic and the world in general that it still holds it's wonder and awe effects.

    Harry Potter, well I didn't like that story anyways, but I'll say that it certainly made for interesting magic. New stuff was constantly happening, and the magic remained, well magical. Even if it did fail at actually making sense now and then.

    EGS magic is safe. It's explained. It's easily added to pretty much any character in the comic. There are no penalties nor worries in using it. In fact, it makes you even better at doing more magic! And because magic is based on your own personality, wants, and actions, you'll typically get stuff related to what you want regardless. The worst case scenario with it is burning yourself out, which simply takes time to recover, not even all that much time considering. It's not even hard to use!

    But I'll admit that's more personal preference then anything. It does sorta extend to the rest of his comic though. Because everything is so safe, there often is very little tension these days, because I know he's so resistant to his characters experiencing significant harm that I can assume that they'll get through whatever threatens them safely. It would be wonderful if he defied that expectation, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Because it makes for a worse story. Flat out. That's why he shouldn't do it. I get that he's providing a free service, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism (same goes for fanfiction BTW). As for writing side stories, well that's what EGS:NP is for.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Re: Reboots and shake-ups: I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, needless reboots and shake-ups bad. Am still pissed about what Marvel is doing with Venom and Deadpool right now.

    Re: Tension. That was never really the point of EGS. EGS is primarily a story about relationships and characters. conflict exists in the traits of characters, how they interact, and how events affect them--it exists in how they grow, and that's what EGS is about. You don't need danger or the possibility that the characters could lose to do that. It's not all about fighting.

    Re: everything else: When it comes down to it... would you rather have a long, slow-moving, convoluted story with lots of side plots... or would you have a fast, simple story that never gets finished?
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  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Re: Reboots and shake-ups: I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, needless reboots and shake-ups bad. Am still pissed about what Marvel is doing with Venom and Deadpool right now.

    Re: Tension. That was never really the point of EGS. EGS is primarily a story about relationships and characters. conflict exists in the traits of characters, how they interact, and how events affect them--it exists in how they grow, and that's what EGS is about. You don't need danger or the possibility that the characters could lose to do that. It's not all about fighting.

    Re: everything else: When it comes down to it... would you rather have a long, slow-moving, convoluted story with lots of side plots... or would you have a fast, simple story that never gets finished?
    On reboots: I wouldn't even consider the magic system in EGS changing to be a reboot. Just a change.

    On Tension: That's true, and it works really well for slice of life stuff, like the card game tournament. I actually hope we get more arcs like that (barring the Larry stuff). But we're going into an arc that's all about danger, because there's vampires attacking, Voltaire is plotting something, and Sirelock and Magnus have their own plans in the works as well. And there's' no tension, because I can say with confidence that all of the characters I care about (and even the ones I don't), will come out of it just fine.

    On Everything Else: Wrong question. The question is, do I want a good story that never gets finished, or a bad story that drags on and on? Because I'd prefer the former. I mean obviously, I want a good story that does get finished, but I'd prefer a clean failure then a slow degradation beneath the author's bad habits. Do you want to die quick? Or die slow?

    Because hey, at least in the former there's the chance the author will come back to it. Or at least learn from their mistakes and do better next time.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The question is, do I want a good story that never gets finished, or a bad story that drags on and on? Because I'd prefer the former. I mean obviously, I want a good story that does get finished, but I'd prefer a clean failure then a slow degradation beneath the author's bad habits.\
    No, not the qusion: The fact that you're still reading the story is proof that, for all you complain, you still think the story is good enough to be worth your time.

    Thus, it becomes "do you want to story to die, or do you want the story to finish?"

    From where I'm sitting, and in my experience, a story is more likely to finish if the author doesn't get bored with it, can tell the story he wants to tell, and has ways to vent writers block.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    You have a very narrow view of what narrative tension is. EGS has plenty of narrative tension - it just doesn't have a whole lot of pathos.

    Narrative tension is simply the quality of not knowing what's going to happen next, so you want to keep reading. Characters don't need to suffer just to keep people interested, and honestly the entire idea that characters must suffer for a story to be interesting is pretty messed up. Why can't you empathise with characters without pitying them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
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    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    No, not the qusion: The fact that you're still reading the story is proof that, for all you complain, you still think the story is good enough to be worth your time.

    Thus, it becomes "do you want to story to die, or do you want the story to finish?"

    From where I'm sitting, and in my experience, a story is more likely to finish if the author doesn't get bored with it, can tell the story he wants to tell, and has ways to vent writers block.
    True it isn't at that point yet, and maybe it never will be. But I complain because I think it's been getting worse, and that there is a very real chance that I will end up dropping it altogether. It wouldn't be the first comic to have slowly degraded in qualilty until I was no longer intersted (The Wotch or Fairy Tail for example, or frig, even Naruto, considering I never actually finished it. I got very close)

    So yeah, I'd prefer it to die before it hits that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    You have a very narrow view of what narrative tension is. EGS has plenty of narrative tension - it just doesn't have a whole lot of pathos.

    Narrative tension is simply the quality of not knowing what's going to happen next, so you want to keep reading. Characters don't need to suffer just to keep people interested, and honestly the entire idea that characters must suffer for a story to be interesting is pretty messed up. Why can't you empathise with characters without pitying them?
    They don't need to suffer, but if they are placed in a dangerous situation, I need to think they are actually in danger.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2017-09-30 at 10:02 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    So I just binged a bunch of EGS and I've come to the conclusion: all the plot threads are going to come crashing down over the weekend. THREADFALL! THREADFALL! QUICK GET DEX TO SUMMON A DRAGON!

    On a more serious note: stuff is foreshadowed really far in advance!

    Forum Explorer: Have you read Worm? Wildbow likes to kill characters at random. Important major characters. At random. ASoIaF too, but I assume you've heard of it.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    Forum Explorer: Have you read Worm? Wildbow likes to kill characters at random. Important major characters. At random. ASoIaF too, but I assume you've heard of it.
    I have read Worm, and it's one of my favorite stories. I wouldn't say characters die at random, besides that one time when they literally did.

    ASoIaF I read a bunch. I didn't mind the characters dying, but I did stop reading after the 4th book when nothing of interest happened.

    Both stories are at an extreme for character's being at risk, the stakes are very high in each fight.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    So... A vampire slayer, a potential vampire slayer, and the Elf-Wizard that a bunch of vampires has been hired to kill are all in the same mall.

    On the Day the vampires are set to move.

    Vampire slayers are the only thing aside from the elf that the vampires are allowed to kill.

    Mall's gonna be swarming with vampires.
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    Meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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