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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I guess it's good that you like Dan's writing style.
    It took me a long time to understand why I have so many problems with this comic, in spite of the fact that I like reading it. The thing is, the first arc - up until Painted Black and the events immediately following it - prepared a story around parallel dimensions and Lord Ted. Instead, the story took a completely different direction, revolving around immortals and high school/personal drama (also magic cards). So I spent something like the last ten years waiting for these plots to kick in. Dan actually addressed this in-comic by having old Verres say that Lord Ted wouldn't enter the story any time soon. Griffinworld probably was the only time alternate dimensions came back in scope.

    Concerning pacing, I am starting to feel that egs could use something that Unsounded has: email notification when a chapter ends. It would also make it easier to focus on the theme of the single issue.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I would not defend Dan as a writer given the early arks. In fact if it were not for the commentary below, which consists of a lot of "why did I do this?" and "Tedd!" I'm not sure I would have made it to Grace's Birthday Party, which is where (roughly speaking) things start coming together for me. Maybe I would have made it, but even if it did, if it had stayed like that I would not have read it three times.

    I think the early days were really the comic and author trying to find their way. At a certain point Dan seemed to realize that he didn't want it to be what he was trying to make. The alternate dimensions took a bow, Tedd grew up and the number of action scenes decreased (to name a few changes that seem to happen around Grace's Birthday Party). And I like what it became more than what it was before that.

    To sum it up, I have my complaints about parts of the comic as well. A lot of them seem to come down to dealing with the fallout of when the story telling just wasn't as good as it was now.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I remember seeing somewhere a comment from Dan that he'd introduced Lord Tedd waaaaaaaaaay too early - Lord Tedd is still part of his planned plot, but there's still quite a ways to go before that part will come.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    @Dougless: Yeah, that's basically it.

    Personally, I'm thinking that Lord Tedd is the endgame. We won't find out the deal with him until our Tedd complete's his character development.(Which, naturally, means that Lord Tedd will come after Noriko at the very least.)

    This is also one of the reasons why I don't think magic is going to change--it'd take years to get Tedd's friends and allies back up to snuff and going by most of what we know of Lord Tedd, there's gonna be fighting.

    (Even if Nioi's right, and like, Shade Tail is responsible for the evil crap while pretending to be Lord Tedd or something, there's gonna be a fight.)
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Is anybody else having trouble with El Goonish Shive on Firefox?
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
    Is anybody else having trouble with El Goonish Shive on Firefox?
    Not at the moment.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    God Damn it Magus.

    Worst possible time
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    If that really is Ellen, how the hell did Magus set this up?

    If it's some kind of fake, how does that factor into Magus' plan? Or is this an intervention by Voltaire in some way?

    So many questions...

    In any case, the dramatic action is definitely kicking into gear now. With the commentary saying the next comic is "FAR MORE FRIDAY" than this one, I will not be surprised if on Friday we see Magus reborn. I will be very curious about how the plan worked, but not surprised.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2017-11-08 at 01:31 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
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    If that really is Ellen, how the hell did Magus set this up?

    If it's some kind of fake, how does that factor into Magus' plan? Or is this an intervention by Voltaire in some way?

    So many questions...

    In any case, the dramatic action is definitely kicking into gear now. With the commentary saying the next comic is "FAR MORE FRIDAY" than this one, I will not be surprised if on Friday we see Magus reborn. I will be very curious about how the plan worked, but not surprised.
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    I think it's probably pretty simple. Elliot had been guarded by the French twins (Helena and Demitrius) for a long time there. They only stopped covering him 24/7 after the rash of aberrations forced them to divide their focus. This quiet moment is the first time both Elliot and Ellen have been left unguarded, allowing Magus to interfere. That was probably a good chunk of Magus's scheme with Sirleck right there.

    As far as we understand it, Magus just wants to get his body back, which will require Ellen to zappa Elliot. The exact details aren't explained, except that this was Pandora's solution to Magus's problem. Most likely, this is something to do with the Dewitchery Diamond, and reapplying the curse to the victim will cause a major reaction. Magus supposedly can use this reaction to get his body back.

    Sirleck needs a new body, one that is unknown and can conceivably inherit his former host's wealth. If Magus succeeds in getting his body back, it will be a completely unknown individual, a perfect host for Sirleck to use, so Sirleck wants him to succeed and then betray him in his moment of victory.

    Voltaire - well, it's hard to tell exactly what Voltaire is actually after beyond the liberation of immortals from their self-imposed neuroses. He is tacking onto Magus's plans with some misdirection, intentionally confusing the French twins with Pandora and then adding in the true detail that Pandora has a son named Adrian Raven. Voltaire was clearly trying to get Adrian onto their radar so that they'd attack him, eliciting a reaction from his mother. If Adrian is hurt, or much worse killed, Pandora is going to flip her lid on a level this setting has never seen, forcing the immortals to re-examine their current status quo and giving Voltaire the leverage to get the changes he desires.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    Do we know whether Magus gets a new body or Elliot's body?

    And I would guess the initial motivation here is Ellen considering it as a whimsical prank.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
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    I think it's probably pretty simple. Elliot had been guarded by the French twins (Helena and Demitrius) for a long time there. They only stopped covering him 24/7 after the rash of aberrations forced them to divide their focus. This quiet moment is the first time both Elliot and Ellen have been left unguarded, allowing Magus to interfere. That was probably a good chunk of Magus's scheme with Sirleck right there.

    As far as we understand it, Magus just wants to get his body back, which will require Ellen to zappa Elliot. The exact details aren't explained, except that this was Pandora's solution to Magus's problem. Most likely, this is something to do with the Dewitchery Diamond, and reapplying the curse to the victim will cause a major reaction. Magus supposedly can use this reaction to get his body back.

    Sirleck needs a new body, one that is unknown and can conceivably inherit his former host's wealth. If Magus succeeds in getting his body back, it will be a completely unknown individual, a perfect host for Sirleck to use, so Sirleck wants him to succeed and then betray him in his moment of victory.

    Voltaire - well, it's hard to tell exactly what Voltaire is actually after beyond the liberation of immortals from their self-imposed neuroses. He is tacking onto Magus's plans with some misdirection, intentionally confusing the French twins with Pandora and then adding in the true detail that Pandora has a son named Adrian Raven. Voltaire was clearly trying to get Adrian onto their radar so that they'd attack him, eliciting a reaction from his mother. If Adrian is hurt, or much worse killed, Pandora is going to flip her lid on a level this setting has never seen, forcing the immortals to re-examine their current status quo and giving Voltaire the leverage to get the changes he desires.
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    We know that voltaire wants magic to change for some reason.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    My theory is that Sirlock has actually body jacked Ellen. He isn't planning on 'keeping' Ellen, but is doing so to force her to zap Elliot.
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  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Since Elliot can change forms at will now, is this actually a solution? The Dewitchery diamond isn't needed.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    Since Elliot can change forms at will now, is this actually a solution? The Dewitchery diamond isn't needed.
    A couple of hints suggest that Magus can surf on Ellen's transformation beam into Elliot. What the ultimate cause-and-effect will turn out to be is at current unknown (but for the record I like Calemyr's hypothesis that it might involve a secondary effect of applying the dewitchery diamond a second time to a cured individual)

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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Perhaps this is a bait and switch sort of page? Make us think that Ellen is going to tranform Elliot, but she's really using a different beam spell to confirm that Elliot really is Elliot and not some other jerk in a disguise?
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    So, since Sirleck isn't a mortal anymore and exists on the Astral Plane, Pandora's more than allowed to kill his ass, right?

    Becuase Sirleck taking Ellen as a host... Can't be good for her and I'm not seeing him letting go until it's time to backstab Magus.
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  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    ...

    Holy.

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    Now THAT is a Friday comic.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Huh. Well, that explains at least some things. Ashley is going to be so confused, it'll be interesting to see how she responds to all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    So, since Sirleck isn't a mortal anymore and exists on the Astral Plane, Pandora's more than allowed to kill his ass, right?

    Becuase Sirleck taking Ellen as a host... Can't be good for her and I'm not seeing him letting go until it's time to backstab Magus.
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    I suppose the physical/astral distinction might allow an exception, but I doubt it. Him being non-mortal definitely doesn't, as that's something common to all aberrations but several past examples indicate that immortals have to get mortal minions to kill aberrations for them.

    Judging by Francine, Ellen's going to be pretty incapacitated when Sirleck leaves her, but I'd guess recovery will just take some rest. I think he might well leave long before betraying Magus, though - Magus is a powerful wizard and knows exactly what Sirleck is and will likely be on guard. Since Sirleck obviously is able to use the magical abilities of his host, he may have a temporary other host lined up to give him a power boost for the inevitable fight with Magus. Then again, he might just have his mercenaries help out.

    Looks like Magus is now in Elliot's body, but I don't see him staying there. He's moral enough he shouldn't accept permanently stealing the body of an innocent for himself. Plus, this is the very beginning of the plan being shown in action (ignoring the not-obvious-at-the-time lie to Nanase), it's way too early for the objective to be complete.

    The body appears to have been transformed to match Magus - that's Elliot's shirt, but the hair is far too light colored. Maybe the next goal is to find and touch the Dewitchery Diamond? That would get Magus a genuinely new body all for himself if this counts as a curse for the Diamond. It would also give Elliot the ability to transform into Magus (physically only, or with Wizard powers too?) and wake up Abraham.

    Things I'm wondering about now: Do Sirleck's victims remember anything of what happened during his possession once he's left, and how much of all this (and how) are the main cast going to figure out? Pandora's the only one who won't be completely blindsided by this, and she might end up forced into an improper reset before she can explain after being provoked into breaking Immortal law.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2017-11-10 at 02:44 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    [QUOTE=Douglas;22554748]Huh. Well, that explains at least some things. Ashley is going to be so confused, it'll be interesting to see how she responds to all of this.

    "Ellen" told Nanase that Elliot would drop her off, so I think both Magus and Sirleck will probably go and attack her now. If so, would they take Ashley with them or just leave her behind? I suppose that could have been just a wild goose chase to keep Nanase occupied and out of the way, but I suspect there is more than that to it.

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Why would Magus and Sirleck want to attack Nanase? My guess is they just wanted to get her out of the way and/or to delay when she realizes something's going on. She's a powerful enough magic user to potentially cause trouble for them but their goals have nothing to do with her, best to just trick her into being a bystander.
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  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    So, 3/4 od the main eight's heavy hitters are incapped at the moment.

    Time for Tedd to use his Gauntlet for it's intended purpose and Justin and Susan to fight?(Susan for the first time since the Goo?)
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  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    So betrayal is in the works.

    This comic makes it clear that Sirleck wants to use Magus as a host, especially now that we know Sirleck can use his victim's magical powers. Actually, I missed that the first and second times reading! A lot of people have already brought that up.

    But this comic makes Magus's positions on aberrations clear. He thinks them dying is a bonus. So he's not going to reward Sirleck like he promised. He's gonna off the Sirleck the first chance he gets. If the heroes are lucky Magus will snap his fingers and destroy Sirleck without harming Ellen. I suspect things won't go so well.

    Side note: I don't think Sirleck has realized Magus is anti-aberration. Ironically, some empathy would clear that stupidity right up.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Was rereading old segments, found this page - I am adjusting-upward my expected odds of Tedd playing chicken with the reset via some sort of public announcement, as someone suggested a bit ago.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Wow. That was.. just wow. I feel a bit sick, now. Powerfull Page.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I am adjusting-upward my expected odds of Tedd playing chicken with the reset via some sort of public announcement, as someone suggested a bit ago.
    At risk of prolonging this discussion when it looks like there's soon going to be a lot of other things to talk about (seriously, holy ****), I'll toss a pair of unsolicited coppers into this thread regarding the matter.

    I really hope this isn't how the magic plotline resolves.


    To clarify my position a bit, I start by saying that I also feel the magic system in this comic is a bit too well explained. Consolidated might be a better word. I liked it back towards the beginning of the story, when you had Tedd and Grace with their alien technology, Nanase with her magic spells, Damien with his I-don't-know-what, Greg with his abilities that he got from being a massive weeb, et cetera. You had a bunch of different power origins, and they all kind of had their own "feel" to them. At the same time, the fact that there were so many of them among a small number of people made it feel like there must be a whole bunch of other weird stuff out there.

    Then Sister II, Part 4 happened. Everything's a synonym for magic, now. Though this probably sounds like I'm complaining about it, I don't actually have a problem with this plot development. At the time, it just seemed like a confirmation that there's some transparency between the different kinds of weird things that people can do. I say "confirmation" because we'd really known this since the (magic) Dewitchery Diamond had an effect on the (Mad Science!) transformation gun. This was just a fun little barrel of exposition, and though it's not necessarily related it has the "feel" of being the setup to what happened next.

    Fast forward nine years, to 2017. Elliot, Ellen, Sarah, Susan, Justin, Nanase. Six of the eight main character now have Nanase-style magic as their primary source for new abilities. The seventh, Tedd, has recently been revealed as a wizard, and that all of the Magitech stuff that he had been created recently is more-or-less just plain magic. And pretty much every supporting character with special abilities has them because they're marked.

    Though I said that I was going to clarify my position, the last two-and-a-half paragraphs are pretty much just a tangential nitpick to my main point. The weird and unique abilities that people used to have in EGS were weird and unique, but now they feel all samey. I'm not a fan of this development. Having said all of this, I don't think knocking the board over is the solution. It would take a long time, but this could be solved with a gradual shift towards unique and specialized magic variants. (And honestly, lots of stuff in this comic takes years to pay off. Having to do things at a slow burn isn't necessarily a problem when you've got a bunch of other stuff going at the same pace).


    I'm now going to start another tangent, but I promise this one leads to my actual point. Let's go back to 2013. Tedd's dad protects people from magic by hiding it from them, and Nanase doesn't like it. She hears his reasoning, and still doesn't like it. But the important thing is that they both have their reasons for supporting their position.

    This is the problem that I have with the idea of Tedd strongarming magic into acting the way he wants. It presupposes that everybody would benefit from Tedd's view of how magic should work. It assumes that Magic changing itself is pointless, that the main characters all know better than it, and that Magic is only doing so (and has been doing so for millenia) because it's Dumb. There's nothing wrong from a storytelling perspective with magic continuing to change itself for a dumb reason. Stories where characters are never allowed to make the wrong decision can get kind of boring. And it's not like there isn't precedent for Dan using this kind of thing before, whether it's Abraham continuing to hold himself to an oath that clearly doesn't allow enough leeway for edge cases, or Pandora deciding that if you trash the current status quo, the end result would be better for Adrian. If Magic has some dumb reason like that, I'll be fine.

    It has to be a dumb reason, though. Maybe far in the past Magic tried letting everybody have powers, and it turned everyday life into rocket tag. Maybe there's only so much magic energy, so either some people can use magic, or everybody's magic fails (This one is my personal prediction, as I believe that the finiteness of magic has been hinted at. I may be just reading into things, however). It's fine if Magic is weighing some factors too heavily, or too lightly, or if the old conditions no longer apply. It's fine for it to be too risk-averse or too reckless. But it has to have some basis for holding on to the decision, and the story needs to at least acknowledge the existence of a reason.

    Tedd's dad wanted to hide magic from people to protect them. Arthur wants to take magic from people who have it to protect people who don't. Magic should also have a reason for why it works the way it does.


    Tedd can't just make magic better as if it's a no-brainer. Ideally, if Tedd is going to force Magic into changing to a system where it doesn't change anymore, even if it's a net benefit overall, there should be some kind of consequence for the decision to justify why it didn't work that way before.

    (There were a bunch of links to go with this post, but being a lurker has bit me in the rear a bit. Sorry)

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    @^

    Magic's dumb reason has repeatedly been stated to be because it's a Drama Queen that doesn't play fair. Thus, I have no qualms with Tedd forcing it to play fair.

    There were never any unique abilities. It was always all magic, just people with unique spells, so I fail to see why everybody having magic makes them less unique since they're all going to still have unique spells unless Tedd goes overboard with spell copying.

    We don't know Arthur's reasoning for wanting Magic to Reset. We do know that Voltaire wants magic to reset as part of his nefarious plan, and we know that Arthur has consistently been treated as bad news or shown to be sinister and presumably is trying to force magic to change without the consent of any of the magic users working for the government or his counterparts in other governments(you know, the people who would lose the powers and possibly their jobs) and thus, is a bad guy here.

    Strictly speaking, all Pandora said was that Tedd didn't really need the glove. The Gloss itself still helped, and the existence of functional buttons and "programmed" enchantments means that the watches are still magitech. He's probably going to keep making those or similar things over Wands unless he somehow gets access to a steady supply of blank wands.

    Tedd doing that has a built in consequence: Everyone would know about Magic. And Unless Tedd was in a disquised form, people would know it was him. Could get negative government attention on him and his friends(Main eight fighting off Government agents trying to take the TF Gun up until all those people who'd throw a fit if Tedd's Dad got fired step in and throw a fit about Edward's family being hassled?) Could attracted bad magic users wanted an easy source of wands coming from the seer. Could bring Noriko back, since her kid is a Wizard. Could attract anti-magic nutjobs, or any of the other problems that come from an unmasked world suddenly being a thing.

    It could also result in Tedd becoming estranged from Edward over Edward's own policy on magic and insistence that it's right, eventually leading to a confrontation.
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  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I think Muninn hit why I want magic to change, though my reason is slightly different. Everyone, absolutely everyone, has magic these days. Of the main characters, who doesn't have magic? Even many of the minor characters have gained magic.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I think Muninn hit why I want magic to change, though my reason is slightly different. Everyone, absolutely everyone, has magic these days. Of the main characters, who doesn't have magic? Even many of the minor characters have gained magic.
    And what's the problem with that? Seriously, what's the problem with EGS shifting into Urban fantasy?
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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

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    Well, so much for Ashley's reaction being interesting. This makes perfect sense, is practical, demonstrates something of both Magus' abilities and ethics, and gets to the action faster, but it's still a bit disappointing for negating that potential character moment.

    Maybe it'll get at least partially made up for when Ashley wakes up, however long that will take. I can hope, at least.

    Meanwhile, the action has its own interest. Magus and Sirleck seem to be using magic to cut through gordian knots with brutal directness so far, but I'm sure they'll eventually run into someone they can't just overwhelm.

    Also, with regard to Sirleck's upcoming betrayal of Magus, I don't think that's going to happen until after Magus touches the Dewitchery Diamond and gets a body all to himself back. A big part of the appeal of taking Magus' body is that no one will miss him, and taking him when it would mean Elliot's permanent disappearance would negate that.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    This is my little tinfoil hat about Magus: He was rendered bodiless because of the diamond--Ellen's creation somehow sucked his body/essence from whatever parallel/alternate dimension Magus came from. The odd means of him regaining a body is just him making the same thing happen in reverse.

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