afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Bronk]

Thanks!

I've run into a few things about 'life pearls'... that they're mined or found on the positive energy plane, mostly by the Transcendent Order, and that they have nebulous powers. They're said to have healing powers of some sort, but some might represent a new reality ready to spring into existence.

Is that right? Is there anything more about them out there? Maybe about where they come from on the PEP, how powerful a healing property they have, or if the new reality part is a canon rumor?

[rigsmal]

Does Gothic Earth a la Masque of the Red Death exist in the canon cosmology? If not, how should I force-fit it in? Separate material plane?

Edit: Also, you mentioned Eberron potentially being contained in some crystal sphere. What are the pros and cons of having Eberron in a crystal sphere vs. a separate material plane? Does anything break if I treat it as a separate material plane and force-fit all the outer/inner/transitive planes into the usual cosmology?

[ksbsnowowl]

on the subject of zelatar... aside from it existing on all 3 layers at the same time (and on another question, how exactly does that work)

Basically there are three separate cities on three consecutive planes of the Abyss. They have NUMEROUS portals between them. Many of the portals take the form of massive green-flamed furnaces, and you have to step into the fire to be transported to one of the two other layers (and just for funsies, some of the furnaces aren't working portals; they are there just to punish and burn the poor berks that walk into them thinking they'll be transported to another layer). IIRC, there are also portals in groves of viper trees in/around the cities.

Getting to any one spot, even on the same layer, could require a mere walk around the corner, or it might require a trip through several portals (just like taking several turns to get through a neighborhood to a specific address).

Despite the city being almost like three separate-but-portal-interconnected cities on three different layers, there are parts of the city that exist simultaneously on all three layers. The most notable being Graz'zt's palace.

[Naanomi]

Any references to spelljamming Thri-Kreen to be found in canon? Not Xixchil, but just normal kreen

[afroakuma]

Thanks!

I've run into a few things about 'life pearls'... that they're mined or found on the positive energy plane, mostly by the Transcendent Order, and that they have nebulous powers. They're said to have healing powers of some sort, but some might represent a new reality ready to spring into existence.

Is that right? Is there anything more about them out there? Maybe about where they come from on the PEP, how powerful a healing property they have, or if the new reality part is a canon rumor?

Lifepearls are potent concentrations of positive energy found in strange and far corners of the Positive Energy Plane. They have abilities similar to those of a staff of healing and a staff of life, possessing 4d10 charges and exploding as a fireball for 5d6 damage when the final charge is expended. As to any more marvelous properties, such are only theorized by the woman who collects them - though of course they are concentrated positive energy, and that's got to be worth something if the right hands get a hold of it - or the wrong ones.

In any event, the xag-ya and ravids of the plane seem to be drawn to the lifepearls as well, though for what reason none can say - the creatures are not tremendously intelligent to begin with, and haven't been forthcoming on the subject.

Does Gothic Earth a la Masque of the Red Death exist in the canon cosmology?

As a matter of fact, it does! Or will, depends on your timeline - where exactly it is in its timeline relative to the timeline of the rest of the canon is murky. It might better be referred to as "magical alternate Earth," for while it mirrors substantial amounts of our history and culture, it has, you know, monsters and magic. As to whether or not it's part of this Material Plane or an alternate Prime, that I cannot say with certainty. Gothic Earth does know the presence of the Vistani, who also populate the Demiplane of Dread; and Murlynd has made multiple visits to this world. I'm afraid connections between the world depicted in Masque of the Red Death and the Great Wheel cosmology will ever be nebulous and murky in our understandings; the former was simply not interested in examining its place relative to the latter, and the latter simply lacked substantial opportunity to speak to the former before the edition change.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Also, you mentioned Eberron potentially being contained in some crystal sphere. What are the pros and cons of having Eberron in a crystal sphere vs. a separate material plane?[/QUOTE]

I don't think I'm qualified to speak to that since I am not, to put it mildly, an Eberron fan. I will simply point out that Eberron's aesthetic fits very well with Spelljammer.

Does anything break if I treat it as a separate material plane and force-fit all the outer/inner/transitive planes into the usual cosmology?

If it's an alternate Material Plane, then it has no reason to have anything to do with the Great Wheel cosmology. That's the default for alternate Primes - they're in different cosmologies entirely and only accessible via Shadow or local facsimiles thereof.

Any references to spelljamming Thri-Kreen to be found in canon? Not Xixchil, but just normal kreen

Yep, although the same reference suggests that xixchil are an offshoot or subspecies of thri-kreen. Rumors abound of a sphere known as Kreenspace inhabited by thri-kreen, xixchil, and many other insectoid life-forms. The mind flayers actually believe that the thri-kreen were sailing the stars even before they were, and evidence suggests that as late as four thousand years ago the kreen were still out in force. Their vessels included the large leaf-ships and the significantly smaller thorn-ships.

[JoeyTheNeko]

hypothetical: one day, every lord of the nine except for asmodus is just up and has vanished. is gone.
how does hell re stabilize?

[Feantar]

hypothetical: one day, every lord of the nine except for asmodus is just up and has vanished. is gone.
how does hell re stabilize?

Messily.

[gkathellar]

Speculative: what wouldn't Asmodeus be willing give in return for his dead wife's resurrection? What bridge would he be unwilling to cross, even for that?

[JoeyTheNeko]

his rulership of hell, I imagine.

edit: to put my question another and simpler way, what 8 dukes of hell would be the most interesting and viable choices to become replacement lords of the nine in the above hypothetical.

[afroakuma]

edit: to put my question another and simpler way, what 8 dukes of hell would be the most interesting and viable choices to become replacement lords of the nine in the above hypothetical.

They're all boring.

If you're looking for the most stable ones, ehhh... Amduscias, Biffant, Focalor, Chamo, Herodias, Tartach, Barbatos, Adonides. Maybe. Temporarily. Depending on the moods and motives of Asmodeus. Or maybe I just picked one from each layer to get this question over with. Who can say?

[JoeyTheNeko]

@afro. thanks for indulging my curiosity about the hypothetical.

so rilikan and skarn lore makes a big deal about a precursor race called the miakasi... is there any sources and lore on them, besides that in the book magic of incarnum itself?

[afroakuma]

so rilikan and skarn lore makes a big deal about a precursor race called the miakasi... is there any sources and lore on them, besides that in the book magic of incarnum itself?

No. And now I'll go check. I don't need to, of course. Because no.

[JoeyTheNeko]

what population centers (as much as the term can apply) actually exist in the positive and negative energy planes?

also I have seen the term come up a few times but never actually heard it explained... what are foo creatures?

[Naanomi]

Do pantheons/worlds that use reincarnation instead of (or in addition to) a more traditional petitioner/afterlife system function much different than 'standard' DnD Gods/Pantheons? I mean... their divine realms wouldn't have much in them it would seem... and I always got the sense the Gods were 'powered' in part by their petitioners... something reincarnation systems wouldn't allow?

[unseenmage]

Thanks for your thoughts in my Ravenloft thread!

Now a few Qs if I may,

How mighty would the magics be needed to create an afterlife for Constructs? Be it a repository for memories/programming or a full on application of somethinglike the Ghost or Petitioner templates.

Would the basic Genesis spell be up to the task? Wish spell? Epic magic? Or would deific might or the equivalent be required? If so what category of deity?

Would it just be easier to set up such a phenomena on Mechanus?

Could it conciedvably give a specialized resting place to the bound elemental spirits and other trapped/enslaved animating forces of slain Constructs?


On another note, would a Planar Shepherd who chose the Demiplane of Dread have any control of the Mists or just get swallowed up?

Edit: Say a Construct dies while changed into a living, normally souled, creature. Do the afterlifes even register them?

What of racially based afterlifes? Do goblins reincarnated as aquatic elves go to elf heaven/hell?

What of memory/identity changing magics? Programmed Amnesia on a reincarnated goblin-become-mer-elf to convince it it IS an elf? Is it just doomed to go to a goblinoid afterlife?

[Tzardok]

what are foo creatures?

Foo creatures are guardian beings from Chinese mythology. Ever seen those dog/lion things at, for example, the entrance of Chinese restaurants? Those are Foo dogs (or Foo lions). There are usually represented in D&D 3.X as celestial lions or celestial wolves or something like that.

What of racially based afterlifes? Do goblins reincarnated as aquatic elves go to elf heaven/hell?

What of memory/identity changing magics? Programmed Amnesia on a reincarnated goblin-become-mer-elf to convince it it IS an elf? Is it just doomed to go to a goblinoid afterlife?

Race has little to no bearing on where you go, only faith and alignment. If said goblin-elf believes in Maglubiyet (main god of goblinoids), he goes to his realm. If he believes in Deep Sashellas (god of sea elves), that one gets him. If he believes in, say, Baron Samedhi (voodoo god of death), that one gets him. If he isn't particular faithful, he just goes to the plane that fits his alignment.

[afroakuma]

what population centers (as much as the term can apply) actually exist in the positive and negative energy planes?

Ahahahahahaha ohohoho ahaha ahhhhhhh no.

But hey, who knows, maybe Shiva's realm has something in it behind the all-destroying vortex. No outsider knows, of course. Or maybe you consider Deathheart to be a population center. I mean it is a city, even if nobody is living in it. Plenty of the plane's usual culprits remain in there - that's the undead, of course. Are they congregated as a population? No; it's merely an enclosed space that provides some contrast to the eternal black beyond, so they're easier to notice.

also I have seen the term come up a few times but never actually heard it explained... what are foo creatures?

Foo creatures are these things, only alive. They're either outsiders or extraplanar magical beasts (they were never officially statted for 3.X to my knowledge, though Oriental Adventures types them as magical beasts). Chaotic good in alignment, they travel the Astral and Ethereal Planes and reside in the Beastlands and Arborea. Foo creatures may enter the Prime to protect mortals for brief periods, and the cultures that most often have contact with them often venerate them and create guardian statuary in their likenesses. Some of these statues are enchanted to allow communication with an actual foo creature, though the creature may ignore such communication as it likes.

Foo creatures come in two known varieties; foo dogs and foo lions. Both share traits of dogs and lions despite the names. Foo lions are the stronger of the two. If you would like to create additional foo creatures, similar guardian statuary would point to foo foxes, foo boars, foo tigers, foo unicorn goats/sheep, foo griffons, and possibly even foo giants.

FYI, the Oriental Adventures interpretation was to apply the Celestial template to a dire wolf or dire lion. It's not a perfect representation, but it's close and expedient.

Do pantheons/worlds that use reincarnation instead of (or in addition to) a more traditional petitioner/afterlife system function much different than 'standard' DnD Gods/Pantheons?

Somewhat differently, obviously.

I mean... their divine realms wouldn't have much in them it would seem...

Why not? Nobody said reincarnation had to be instantaneous, and of course those who have confirmed their journeys across multiple reincarnations would have settled in like any other petitioner. Just look at the Indian pantheon - their realms (with one unknowable and vortexy exception) are chock-full of petitioners.

and I always got the sense the Gods were 'powered' in part by their petitioners... something reincarnation systems wouldn't allow?

Gods are powered by the faith, belief, and spiritual journey of the petitioner, as it were; pantheons that employ reincarnation take these things from a worthy petitioner, and send them back to do it anew. It's arguably less transformative for the powers of that pantheon, which can have ramifications down the line about stagnation and refusal to grow and change. For the Indian pantheon, the all-encompassing Brahman engenders cooperation between the deities, such that they don't care about where a petitioner ultimately ends up; and they cover a lot of crystal spheres. Perhaps their success has to do with how they as a pantheon have embraced the Unity of Rings and the Rule of Three. As there is very little written about them, we'll never know.

How mighty would the magics be needed to create an afterlife for Constructs? Be it a repository for memories/programming or a full on application of somethinglike the Ghost or Petitioner templates.

I can't imagine a repository for memories would be particularly hard, provided you had some means of recording them; a variation of the Sensates' recorder stones, perhaps, although they'd have to be built into the construct...

Would the basic Genesis spell be up to the task? Wish spell? Epic magic? Or would deific might or the equivalent be required? If so what category of deity?

Well I mean, I'm not fully certain what you desire to do. If you want to actually create a realm to which post-destruction constructs' not-souls migrate for eternal afterlifery, then that's beyond the capacity of mortal magic. Even divine magic can't forcibly capture... whatever-it-is and drag it off to anchor in. At best whatever you're doing would be some sort of manual cosmic kludge.

If you just want to create a personal space for manual archiving, genesis is quite suitable.

Could it conciedvably give a specialized resting place to the bound elemental spirits and other trapped/enslaved animating forces of slain Constructs?

I mean, the elementals would hate that; all they want is repatriation, and maybe a little bit of revenge. Being confined to a demiplane or Outer Plane for eternity as a "reward" for getting stuffed into a statue by some mortal spellcaster would be the ultimate insult.

On another note, would a Planar Shepherd who chose the Demiplane of Dread

Ahahahahahaha ohohoho ahaha ahhhhhhh no.

Ohhhh that's funny.

have any control of the Mists or just get swallowed up?

That would be a very, very, very no. At best, you could get one use out of your plane shift ability - the one use that strands you and up to eight others in Ravenloft forever because it's blocked on the other side.

Edit: Say a Construct dies while changed into a living, normally souled, creature. Do the afterlifes even register them?

If I polymorph you into a demon, does your alignment change? If I polymorph you into a golem, does your soul cease existing? No and no; a construct does not acquire a soul just because it has been transformed into a living thing.

What of racially based afterlifes? Do goblins reincarnated as aquatic elves go to elf heaven/hell?

I assume you mean reincarnate, the spell, as opposed to some form of cosmic or karmic reincarnation. A soul goes where its faiths and beliefs send it; an "aquatic elf" who believes in Maglubiyet will still go to Maglubiyet's realm on death. Conversely, a goblin who legitimately believes in Deep Sashelas can end up in the realm of Deep Sashelas post-mortem.

What of memory/identity changing magics? Programmed Amnesia on a reincarnated goblin-become-mer-elf to convince it it IS an elf? Is it just doomed to go to a goblinoid afterlife?

Tampering with memory is a good way to imperil a soul's previously preferred afterlife, but it's not an absolute; among other things, Maglubiyet knows why a follower suddenly stopped believing in him. This assumes the soul has in fact stopped believing in and valuing the things it does - I may delete a goblin's memories, polymorph him into an aquatic elf, and tell him he's always been an aquatic elf and values individuality and freedom and cute dolphins, but if those things don't emotionally register with me - if my instincts, appetites, values tell me dolphins are boring and big fearsome wolves are much cooler - then spiritually I haven't become detached from my original beliefs at all. I have merely been deprived of knowing their name and their shape.

But to cut to the heart of your question: there's no such thing as a racially-based afterlife. There are racial deities, who are the natural patrons of the races they steward, but what determines one's afterlife is not the biological kind of being one was born as, or currently is; it's based on faith.

[Naanomi]

Do we have any other examples of pantheons/Gods doing reincarnation as the default besides the Indian pantheon? I find it a little surprising (from a narrative perspective) that at least one Racial pantheon hasn't made it their afterlife schtick

[Tzardok]

After the whole "Who was the first Vampire?" comes now the obvious follow-up:

Who was the first werewolf or other werebeing? And how the heck did that happen?

[JoeyTheNeko]

how come rocs are considered merely animals and not... magical beasts? given the rocs of mythology were magical beasts, and the size is just too much for a normal avian bird to exist like a roc.

[afroakuma]

Do we have any other examples of pantheons/Gods doing reincarnation as the default besides the Indian pantheon?

I don't recall seeing one offhand.

I find it a little surprising (from a narrative perspective) that at least one Racial pantheon hasn't made it their afterlife schtick

Why? I don't think that would be a particularly useful thing for a racial pantheon to be doing.

Who was the first werewolf or other werebeing?

Unspecified.

how come rocs are considered merely animals and not... magical beasts?

So this is about rules instead of fluff, which means I can point to a simple answer: in 3.0 they were actually part of a different category entirely. The Beast type was used for creatures that did not exist in nature but lacked supernatural qualities of any kind - dinosaurs, oversized animals other than dire animals, rocs, owlbears, et cetera. During the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, they recognized that two of the types in play were kind of silly - Shapechanger, which became a subtype, and Beast, which was identical to Animal save for a better hit die. Most ex-Beasts became Magical Beasts, while a scant few were converted into Animals. The rule of thumb for the Magical Beast categorization is given as: "Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits."

A roc simply does not qualify. Yes, it's a gigantic bird, but it's still just a bird. It does nothing special, its appearance is "bird," and its behavior is "bird." The D&D universe doesn't behave according to our laws of... well, many things, really. Even mythologically, the roc was less a myth in the sense of "it could do this improbable thing" and more a myth in the sense of "I have not seen this thing locally, but I have no reason to doubt it exists because you're not telling me it bleeds candy or shoots liquid gold from its mouth or has feathers which can be used to heal wounds or has three heads."

In the D&D multiverse, rocs are animals. They act like animals, they are influenced like animals, there is nothing to distinguish them from any other really large animal. Arguably this is in fact most appropriate for the mythology of the roc, which after all even in those tales and legends was still just a really, really big bird.

[JoeyTheNeko]

I got a question for a friend who is not on this site.

they are currently playing a curse of strahd campaign with their PC and seem to be well on the way to successfully replacing strahds lover from which the curse is involved with well, their current PC
aside from just general bad ideas trying to romance a darklord, what specific bad things might happen for actually breaking a darklords curse?

[afroakuma]

they are currently playing a curse of strahd campaign with their PC and seem to be well on the way to successfully replacing strahds lover from which the curse is involved with well, their current PC

"Replacing" in what sense?

aside from just general bad ideas trying to romance a darklord, what specific bad things might happen for actually breaking a darklords curse?

I'm unclear on the meaning of this question.

[JoeyTheNeko]

basically she got away yet again, but the PC is showing romantic interest in him, and he is behaving... oddly back toward her.
his knights have been ordered to leave her alone, and she has agreed already to be turned when the time to betray the party is right. she was previously caught by him but let go to serve as his mole in the party.

[afroakuma]

I'm not seeing a question there, though. Am I being asked for relationship advice? "Don't date the bloodsucking darklord who will replace you in a few decades if he doesn't get bored with you long beforehand."

[JoeyTheNeko]

I'm asking what kind of bad things happen should a darklords curse be broken, which is seeming possible to happen here.

[afroakuma]

I'm asking what kind of bad things happen should a darklords curse be broken, which is seeming possible to happen here.

Possible based on what? Nothing you've said suggests anything is even in the neighborhood of Strahd's curse, to say nothing of breaking it. True love's kiss isn't going to break the spell here. Fake love's kiss definitely won't. All that PC is heading toward is an unfortunate stint as a vampire spawn.

[unseenmage]

Hey Afro, do you use/allow the Simulacrum spell or similar in your games? No real purpose to this Q, am just curious.

Additionally, how do you think powerful planar entities protect against Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Aleax, mirror plane duplicates, and the like?

I mean sure some of the above are easily enough avoided by just not doing the thing (mirror plane duplicates being no threat if not on their turf in the first place) but some of the others are downright nasty methods of fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

By 'powerful' I mean just shy of godhood. Big enough deals for their names to carry otherplanar weight but not yet able to play deific reindeer games.

[JoeyTheNeko]

Possible based on what? Nothing you've said suggests anything is even in the neighborhood of Strahd's curse, to say nothing of breaking it. True love's kiss isn't going to break the spell here. Fake love's kiss definitely won't. All that PC is heading toward is an unfortunate stint as a vampire spawn.

ah, then nevermind. though still curious what the effect of breaking a darklords curse would be.

[afroakuma]

Hey Afro, do you use/allow the Simulacrum spell or similar in your games? No real purpose to this Q, am just curious.

It's never come up. Ice assassin definitely not.

Additionally, how do you think powerful planar entities protect against Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Aleax, mirror plane duplicates, and the like?

I'd imagine the same principles that empower many of the ones on the Outer Planes offer some basic protections against mortal-grade duplication magic - after all, there aren't two Dispaters walking around, despite the multifarious beliefs about that particular archdevil. At some point, such beings may acquire the ability to essentially "override" a duplicate by making it, in essence, an extension of themselves - not unlike their unlisted but present-in-fluff abilities to communicate on the Material Plane through profane idols, natural and supernatural phenomena, et cetera. Or, of course, their also unlisted but extant ability to create and send forth aspects of themselves.

Spoiler: Regarding the deficiencies of the rule system

Show

When it comes to powerful beings, the rules quite simply don't cover all of the many non-combat capabilities they must possess to do the things they do. As recently came up in some privately-dispatched advice about another poster's campaign, for example, the rules used by gods are vastly inferior to the rules used by epic characters, which if followed through to its logical terminus begs the question of why the gods haven't all been replaced by epic-level characters who stole their divinity and ended up with both epic abilities and divine powers? Furthermore, of course, some gods were epic-level characters who got a promotion - what's the point of seeking out godhood if it's just a step down? Are gods supposed to worry about aleaxes of themselves? A god doesn't actually have the printed capability to create an aleax; it's merely inferred from fluff.

To put it simply, the rules don't account for managing high-level entities. They don't even possess the capabilities in their printed statblocks to do some of the things listed in official printed adventures. The answer, as unsatisfying as it may be, lies in what's unspoken. Archdevils, demon princes, celestial paragons, slaad lords, genie rulers, archomentals etc. must possess some form of protective quality against the kind of nonsense the game's rules allow.

But hey, if we want a rules-based explanation, why don't we simply lunge to the other logical extreme: Pun-Pun Was Here. And he used his abilities to make sure nobody else could pull this kind of stunt.

That said, functional or absolute protection from this particular kind of assault (and there's nothing to say that an aleax has never been sent against a Lord of the Nine, though evidence suggests an aleax has never succeeded on that job) doesn't preclude taking related precautions regarding bits and pieces of oneself for other reasons. There seems to be no end to the magic you can pull off with a lock of someone's hair, for example.

So yeah. Perhaps they're more difficult to "address" magically with these sorts of effects - their data is extra secure, as it were, secreted behind layers of protection across thousands of years covering parts of their personal background, various vulnerabilities, true names... perhaps, as noted, making a living image of such a being invites your creation to become an aspect or a rogue eidolon. Perhaps there are simply ineffable cosmic protections at play that stipulate that beings which have achieved "uniqueness" are beyond the ability of mere mortal magic, below even epic spellcasting, to create anything more than a poor, shadowy facsimile of.

Hope that helps.

ah, then nevermind. though still curious what the effect of breaking a darklords curse would be.

You are, of course, talking about eliminating the cycle of Tatyana's reincarnations and the temptation and repeated damnation of Strahd. You can't. External forces solving a darklord's personal torment is antithetical to the very concept of Ravenloft. The only thing that you can do to release a darklord is to make a bid, knowingly or no, to take their place - and "hope" the Dark Powers find you to be a more interesting bird to cage. Even then, your flavor of hamartia is much more likely to deposit you in your very own new domain - why trade when you can have both?