afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Eldan]

Several of the factions, really. The Harmonium, for sure. Maybe the Bleakers.

[Tzardok]

The Bleakers? I didn't think they cared enough.

[enderlord99]

The Bleakers? I didn't think they cared enough.

They're quite passionate about their own lack of passion, though they'd never admit it.

[afroakuma]

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

Alright, so, the awaited follow-up.

Partially this answer will depend on just how emotionally invested Asmodeus is in a few things. Like his daughter.

• Bel is just a pit fiend. Even if he is a Blood War general, he was given the job not because of any personal power or stature but essentially due to his lacking in both departments. Bel is maximally expendable. Nobody will miss him.

• Glasya (A) is the newest of the Nine and has the least infrastructure in place, which is saying something when your competition includes Bel. Her expendability depends entirely on how much Asmodeus personally values her. If that's not a factor, she's here.

• Fierna is another relatively recent up-jumper, one with a retiree dad who still does basically half the job and is long practiced in it. She may have been slowly building her own network across her layer, but there's little doubt that Belial could take most of it in hand again with ease.

• Mammon is competent enough at his job and comes with both the benefits and the drawbacks of having few allies in the upper echelons (lower echelons?) of Baator after his bootlicking apology in the wake of the Reckoning. A useful underling, without a doubt, but he's proven himself to be among the least of the old guard time and time again, and he's no longer a useful catspaw.

• Levistus is definitely replaceable, having spent quite a lot of time demoted in favor of Geryon until the latter's abrupt exile by the Lord Below for reasons of Asmodeus is a troll. The relationship between Asmodeus and Levistus is as frosty as Stygia itself, but he's reliable, predictable, and sufficiently capable of managing his layer that he can get the job done while spending most of his time as a popsicle.

• Glasya (B) would be Asmodeus's personal preference for a Lord not to dispose of, if we believe his love of family means something authentic. He'd still do it, mind, but ideally not without exhausting other options first, including His Chillyness.

• Baalzebul has proven himself to be a powerful check on the ambitions of Mephistopheles, as well as a potent force for Baator's special brand of evil on the Material Plane. Nonetheless, the fallen celestial is unproductively obsessive, hasn't made any useful countermoves to the growing powers of the Lord of the Eighth in centuries, and resents the Lord Below for his cursed form but insufficiently so to drive the intrigues that move the wheels of devilkind. Baalzebul's ambition and drive take on a shape not unlike madness to a degree, and while he has in the past ruled over more Hells directly or indirectly than any but Asmodeus himself, Baalzebul has nothing to show for it - the Lord Below may have broken him a bit too hard.

• Dispater and Mephistopheles share the bottom spot; there remains an odd collegiality between the original trio of troublemakers, and Asmodeus never forgets who he came down with, as it were. Both are as established in Baator's history as the Lord Below, to the extent that anyone is aware, and both represent the power of the Nine Hells in a fashion that most other Lords could only hope to some day match. Each is driven by personal foibles that provoke countless new intrigues, and each fuels the spread of lawful evil on the Prime with their own personal ambitions. Dispater is possibly the most useful of the Lords of the Nine, holding the Iron City since time immemorial - the first and best bastion of the Nine Hells against intruders who breach Tiamat's lair. Mephistopheles is openly hostile toward the Lord Below, but his position of power draws hatred like few others, provokes the hungers of other Lords of the Nine, and provides Asmodeus with a really easy lever to pull when he wants to upset the status quo - Mephistopheles is nothing if not predictable where the Lords of the Seventh and the Ninth are concerned. Mephistopheles would arguably be a hair more expendable were it not for his consort, who is, of course, big trouble.

Are there any particular groups of people; be they followers of a particular deity or members of a faction or whatever; who would fit the image of a stereotypical missionary? You know, the kind who goes around bothering random people in attempts to actively convert them (or in their mind "save their souls") using stuff rannging from the classic "do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour XXX" to the more extreme "END IS NIGH, CONVERT NOW OR BURN FOREVER!".

Yes.

[enderlord99]

Isn't Dis the name of a whole layer? I thought the guy running it was named Dispater...

EDIT: I see you fixed it. Great!

[Naanomi]

I know there are a few aquatic fiends... apart from the obvious ‘celestial animals and templates aquatic monsters’, are there any aquatic-bodies celestials out there?

[Dalmosh]

The Summon Monster spells (in 3.5) assign law-chaos alignments to fiendish and celestial creatures.
Is that just completely random noise introduced for game design balance, or is there any sensible reason why for example... a fiendish dire bat is NE but a fiendish ape is LE?

Is it reasonable to assume that the aforementioned ape has been summoned from somewhere in Baator, Gehenna or Acheron? Since the Abyss is potentially infinite in variety it seems reasonable to think that it would have populations of any kind of fiendish animal somewhere, that the mage could summon, and that these would be chaotically aligned.

Similarly, do templated planar animals of NE and NG alignment occur commonly in chaotic and lawfully aligned lower and upper planes respectively?

In general ecological terms, how are these templated creatures different from their material plane counterparts?

To what extent do their preferred habitats correspond to those of their material plane brethren?

Do fiendish and celestial animals count as Fiends and Celestials in their own right? Is a Fiendish Crocodile from the Abyss a demon?

[afroakuma]

I know there are a few aquatic fiends... apart from the obvious ‘celestial animals and templates aquatic monsters’, are there any aquatic-bodies celestials out there?

Noviere eladrin... we don't know the 3.5 types for zoveri or asrai, but if they aren't monstrous humanoid/fey respectively then they would also qualify.

The Summon Monster spells (in 3.5) assign law-chaos alignments to fiendish and celestial creatures.
Is that just completely random noise introduced for game design balance, or is there any sensible reason why for example... a fiendish dire bat is NE but a fiendish ape is LE?

Noise.

Is it reasonable to assume that the aforementioned ape has been summoned from somewhere in Baator, Gehenna or Acheron?

Yep.

Similarly, do templated planar animals of NE and NG alignment occur commonly in chaotic and lawfully aligned lower and upper planes respectively?

I would expect NE fiendish creatures to appear on Gehenna, Hades, and Carceri; and NG celestial creatures to appear on Bytopia, Elysium, and the Beastlands.

In general ecological terms, how are these templated creatures different from their material plane counterparts?

They're smarter, for one. They also adjust their ecology to be more in keeping with their environment. An axiomatic bulette from Mechanus digs in precisely orthogonal lines, for instance, and a fiendish cow from Baator...

To what extent do their preferred habitats correspond to those of their material plane brethren?

Largely cognate, for pragmatic reasons. Cows don't prance about in oceans or gad up mountains for tea - not usually, at any rate. Bats don't whip about open prairies going "nah it's cool I'll just sleep on the ground." Lizards don't chill in boreal forests. I mean they would chill, if they were there, but they aren't.

Do fiendish and celestial animals count as Fiends and Celestials in their own right? Is a Fiendish Crocodile from the Abyss a demon?

No and no.

[Naanomi]

Concerning the formation of the Outer Planes...

I realize this is so far back in Planar history that clear answers are not likely forthcoming, and contradictory stories may actually all be true because that is how the Outer Planes are anyways but...

1) Have the Outer Planes existed (in some form) since the beginning of the current cosmology, or did they spring into existence later in the process? If so, after the Inner Planes? After the Astral Plane? After the Proto-Prime?

2) I know there is some evidence that in the early stages of the Outer Planes, they were not as differentiated as they were now... in the beginning was it just Law/Chaos with some space in between, or was Good/Evil also present from the start? Was Neutrality always its 'own place' or was there a time it was just 'no mans land'?

3) Before the 'mixed alignment' planes were formed (or... fully formed? They may have existed in some 'planar space' before existing as they do now?), was the 'place of Law' Mechanus as it is now, or did it have elements of the other 'Planes of Law' until they differentiated themselves later?

Any other insight you have into the early formation of the Outer Planes would be appreciated

[Tryxx]

I seem to recall reading a theory that Lucifer was the first baatezu-ruler of Baator who was usurped by Asmodeus. After which Lucifer then played some sort of long con as/with Beherit, where he was then smacked right back down again by Big-A for having a son called Lucifuge of all things. Is there any evidence to support that theory?

[Naanomi]

I seem to recall reading a theory that Lucifer was the first baatezu-ruler of Baator who was usurped by Asmodeus. After which Lucifer then played some sort of long con as/with Beherit, where he was then smacked right back down again by Big-A for having a son called Lucifuge of all things. Is there any evidence to support that theory?

I believe the novel ‘Elminster in Hell’ goes into detail about that

[Tryxx]

I believe the novel ‘Elminster in Hell’ goes into detail about that

Apparently it does - been awhile since I've read it. Thanks!

[enderlord99]

Is there a (notable) group that has a chain of command that is actually a circle, but nobody involves knows it's a circle, and so they continue following old orders that they themselves issued much earlier, but which have since become unrecognizable?

If there is, I'm guessing they're Acheronian.

EDIT: Bonus points if nobody involved agrees with the objective anymore, but they all keep quiet about it to avoid offending their supposed superiors.

[ksbsnowowl]

Either MotP or FCII talk about the links between layers in Baator, but other than describing them generally as the "lowest points" on the layers, and that falling between layers is a thing, it doesn't give us a whole lot of info as to what the connection points are. Is there a canon list of what the points of connection between the layers of Baator are?

Are there any other generally-used means of traveling between layers of Baator? Portals? Teleportation? (Can teleport work to cross layers of the same plane?)

[JoeyTheNeko]

so what recommendations might be viable for helping elementals stand more on par with outsiders abilitywise? that retain thematic capability with elementals.

[unseenmage]

Are souls an emergent property, an intrinsic one, or both?

Are souls the sole province of sentient beings? Of living beings?

Can created creatures, living or not, develop a soul over time?

I have this idea of souls as extraplanar currency but it feels like if animals have souls or Constructs even then a soul as currency wouldnt seem to have much value.

Am also considering the idea that only souls spawned on contested territory have value. So Prime Material souls would be more valuable than say a soul spawned on a Plane that automatically charged that soul with its alignment essence.

[Dalmosh]

How do the smarter elementals feel about golems (and similar constructs powered with bound elementals such as Nimblewrights, though I'm lumping them all together under the catch-term "golem") and their construction?

Who first made golems? Were there golem crafting mages that predated human civilization on the Prime?

If you can channel the spiritual essence of an outer plane through planar matter to create a Planar Golem, what stops you summoning this spiritually infused matter onto the Prime into a being analogous to an elemental?

Are Planar Golems commonly used by Exemplar races native to that plane? Or is that more of a thing that planewalking mages from the Prime would do?

[Clistenes]

We have many rules for selling your soul, or for selling a victim's captured soul... but, how could a high level character buy somebody's soul?. As in, I make somebody sign a contract and their soul comes to me when they die?

Are souls an emergent property, an intrinsic one, or both?

Are souls the sole province of sentient beings? Of living beings?

Can created creatures, living or not, develop a soul over time?

I have this idea of souls as extraplanar currency but it feels like if animals have souls or Constructs even then a soul as currency wouldnt seem to have much value.

Am also considering the idea that only souls spawned on contested territory have value. So Prime Material souls would be more valuable than say a soul spawned on a Plane that automatically charged that soul with its alignment essence.

Wild animals go to the Beastlands after they die. Domesticated animals go to Bytopia after they die.

Golems and similar have Elementals as "souls".

Homunculus are extensions of their creators, they share a soul.

I don't think Animated Objects, Simulacrums and clockwork Automatons have souls. They are like machines whose every movement and action is due to the spells that created them.

You can create souls using Incarnate Construct or Awaken Construct on a Construct or using Awaken on a tree.

You can create an Elemental using Extract Water Elemental (but I'm not sure there is a way you can prevent the Elemental from disappearing after the end of the spell). You can create a Celestial using Create Lantern Archon.

the Druid spell Wood Wose allows to create a spirit, but I think it is temporary. Third party spells, like Green Ronin's Create Spirits allow to create Spirits who aren't temporary, but full-fledged permanent souls.

In second edition you had a small chance to create a permanent, real being using the essence of the Ethereal Plane. I think you have a small chance to do the same in 3.5's Plane of Dreams. And I think Githzerai trained to shape chaos stuff from Limbo could do the same...

I think mortal souls are valuable because they can be assimilated into any plane. If say Baator spawns a Nupperibbo, it would be very hard to recycle it into say a Non-evil or non-lawful soul.

[Caelestion]

Can one purchase chocolate in Sigil?

For what it's worth, one of the 'potions' in Planescape: Torment is a chocolate-coated insect (?). If it's the one I'm thinking about, you release an jnsect swarm when you bite into it.

[Clistenes]

Can one purchase chocolate in Sigil?

The Mayan and Aztec pantheons are certainly present, and they had a goddess of cacao, Ixacacao. Queztalcoalt was a said to have given cacao to Humanity too...

So I would say that yes, they have some form of chocolate. They probably had access to cocoa seeds for millennia, and they have milk and sugar from other worlds and cultures... it took a few decades only for the Spaniards to decide cacao would be tastier if they removed chili from the original mexican recipe and added milk, sugar and vanilla instead... At some point some halfling or gnome pastry chef must have thought of doing the same during those many centuries cocoa was around...

[Malimar]

Are souls an emergent property, an intrinsic one, or both?

Are souls the sole province of sentient beings? Of living beings?

Can created creatures, living or not, develop a soul over time?

I have this idea of souls as extraplanar currency but it feels like if animals have souls or Constructs even then a soul as currency wouldnt seem to have much value.

Am also considering the idea that only souls spawned on contested territory have value. So Prime Material souls would be more valuable than say a soul spawned on a Plane that automatically charged that soul with its alignment essence.

I don't know whether and to what extent Magic of Incarnum features in Afrocanon, but according to it, souls grow on trees in the Positive Energy Plane and, when ripe, travel through a portal to the Material Plane where they find their way into newly-born beings.

[ksbsnowowl]

I don't know whether and to what extent Magic of Incarnum features in Afrocanon, but according to it, souls grow on trees in the Positive Energy Plane and, when ripe, travel through a portal to the Material Plane where they find their way into newly-born beings.

That concept originally comes from the 3.0 module Bastion of Broken Souls.

[Naanomi]

That concept originally comes from the 3.0 module Bastion of Broken Souls.

But the idea that souls (and anima that animals and the like have, which are like ‘lesser souls’) generally come from the Positive Emergy Plane is older than that

[afroakuma]

Well then, it seems I've been quite distant for too long. Let's catch up, shall we?

I seem to recall reading a theory that Lucifer was the first baatezu-ruler of Baator who was usurped by Asmodeus. After which Lucifer then played some sort of long con as/with Beherit, where he was then smacked right back down again by Big-A for having a son called Lucifuge of all things. Is there any evidence to support that theory?

Lucifer was one of the first cohort of fallen, alongside Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Dispater. Seeing the wounds the almighty Asmodeus had suffered, Lucifer believed himself free to claim absolute rule over their new domain.

He was not correct.

"Gifted" with a new moniker, Beherit ruled over the sixth Hell with his consort Batna. At one point they conspired to act against the dictates of Asmodeus in a manner the Lord Below found most odious, by siring a new archdevil. Asmodeus was very reasonable. He was very calm. He was very both of you are condemned to oblivion while I eat your baby.

As for Lucifuge as a name, I had the same reaction you did - but it's a legit name.

Either MotP or FCII talk about the links between layers in Baator, but other than describing them generally as the "lowest points" on the layers, and that falling between layers is a thing, it doesn't give us a whole lot of info as to what the connection points are. Is there a canon list of what the points of connection between the layers of Baator are?

The most well-known is certainly the gate from Avernus to Dis, which is located in the Cave of Greed in Tiamat's lair. The portal from Cania to Nessus is also known and named - the Pit, a howling black chasm with only one narrow stair descending into its depths, and that one guarded heavily by towers garrisoned by gelugons. Others obviously exist, and I feel I must have seen them crop up in one corner or other - in particular I remember one adventure that took place along a route between layers - but I don't remember any distinctly enough to go digging them up.

So let's make some up.

• The Greedy Grotto is the all-too-whimsical name given to the terrifying master sluice of the City of Dis, a vast fanged maw of rusted spikes into which plunges the fetid runoff of the vast diabolical city. While it occasionally disgorges an unnerving spider-legged "crawling boat" of black hell-iron, most of the time those wishing to return take a less unpleasant route.

• The Eye of the Storm is an unorthodox gate, being the center of a particularly black rainstorm amidst the eternal drear of Minauros's skies. Eddies of ash and glass trickle away from a spit of dry land comprised of obsidian and fulgurite, as the storm's dancing red lightnings threaten the life of any who dare to descend to Phlegethos. Standing in the center of the crater and waiting for the next flash of lightning is all it takes to move from one place to another.

• The Boiling Sea is the most sensible route to get from Phlegethos to Stygia, though traversal will depend on one's ability to cross the bubbling, tempestuous, and acidic waters. Vast flat-bottomed boats offer passage for a steep price and are crusted with an unnerving number of corroded skeletons. Avoid those with sails - no matter what material constitutes them, the winds between the layers are harsh and deceitful. Rare is the vessel that can make the return journey, and their captains invariably command a higher price.

• The Forgotten Mountain rises up from an iceberg somewhere on the Stygian seas near the realm of Sekolah. The gates to Malbolge are set at many places along the climb, and it's said that one's survival on the layer below may depend on how far up the mountain one has braved - the upper gates deposit one on a more stable part of the next layer, as much as any part of it can be deemed stable. The portals are nothing more than frigid black clouds on the other side, forcing travelers to look for alternate means of escape.

• The Envious Eye is located in a vast skull-like mountain on Malbolge, believed to be the grossly distorted cranium of the Hag Countess herself. The gate takes the form of a colossal, putrescent eyeball that writhes and twitches, glistening with the reflected envies of its onetime possessor. One must step into the pupil of the Eye and cross the darkness within to see the reflected vainglory upon which its gaze is fixed - the layer of Maladomini.

• The Shattered Spires sit at the heart of a vast ruined city, a place of toppled obelisks and deadly cold winds - not the chill of ice, but of neglect, apathy, and abject solitude. A deep amphitheatre, impossible in size, plunges down to a pair of monoliths covered in cryptic symbols that hurt the soul to look upon. The broken city and the twisting route through to the portal spires are watched over by silent amnizu, who record the journeys to and fro of all those who pass but will not interfere with travelers under any circumstances, even threat to their own lives, save one - none must stop to study the twin monoliths, and those who do will find the assembled amnizu calling upon some terrible darkness from the layer below to cast them into fates unknown.

Are there any other generally-used means of traveling between layers of Baator? Portals? Teleportation? (Can teleport work to cross layers of the same plane?)

Teleport does not work to cross layers or for interplanar transport. There are a great number of paths between layers and portals that drop directly to particular hells; it just takes expertise to discover and exploit them.

so what recommendations might be viable for helping elementals stand more on par with outsiders abilitywise? that retain thematic capability with elementals.

I'm confused as to why they should.

Are souls an emergent property, an intrinsic one, or both?

I'm not entirely sure what the question is asking, but since I think this is going to be about golem souls I'm going to say intrinsic.

Are souls the sole province of sentient beings? Of living beings?

This is 99% accurate, though some souls are "alive" but belong to undead entities (liches) and some things that live do not have souls (oozes, many plants).

Can created creatures, living or not, develop a soul over time?

No.

I have this idea of souls as extraplanar currency but it feels like if animals have souls or Constructs even then a soul as currency wouldnt seem to have much value.

Well, the soul of an animal has limited value. A construct with a soul has something else's soul pinned to a material shape to which it does not belong; this is how golems work, for instance.

How do the smarter elementals feel about golems (and similar constructs powered with bound elementals such as Nimblewrights, though I'm lumping them all together under the catch-term "golem") and their construction?

Smarter in what regard? Sentient elementals that are familiar with the idea of golems are most displeased about it.

Who first made golems?

Unknown.

Were there golem crafting mages that predated human civilization on the Prime?

I mean we don't have a hard word to say yes on that matter, but realistically speaking, yes.

If you can channel the spiritual essence of an outer plane through planar matter to create a Planar Golem, what stops you summoning this spiritually infused matter onto the Prime into a being analogous to an elemental?

Tell you what, you go find me some Prime Material Gehenna and I'll hook you right up. Do you have any of that handy? I have this fire for fire elementals, water for water elementals, all I need is some local Beastlands into which to bind a Beastlands elemenwait a minute there's no such thing!

Conjuring an elemental brings a unique being whose inherent nature involves inhabiting and manipulating a body formed from its native element into the Material Plane. You can't conjure the spiritual essence of an Outer Plane because 1) it's not a distinctive being, it's just the anchoring foundation of a place literally made of belief; and 2) you have nothing to host it in. Your best imitation is still a totally illogical and incompatible mess because it lacks the nature of the plane in question. Small wonder that planar golems are so intensely difficult to create.

Are Planar Golems commonly used by Exemplar races native to that plane? Or is that more of a thing that planewalking mages from the Prime would do?

Book suggests that celestials are behind the creation of prismatic golems, though the general descriptor block makes me think this is an uncommon choice for locals to make as the servants may not share the purposes of their creators. It probably works well enough for good-aligned and lawful planes, but bring evil and/or chaos into the mix... well, needless to say I can't think of why yugoloths would want to manufacture too many gloom golems, though certainly other denizens of Hades may have found a role for them.

We have many rules for selling your soul, or for selling a victim's captured soul... but, how could a high level character buy somebody's soul?. As in, I make somebody sign a contract and their soul comes to me when they die?

Custom spell/magic item? Some sort of contingent soul bind thing? Alternately, become a fiend, then take levels in fiend of corruption, that's a pretty straightforward way to do it.

[enderlord99]

Is there a (notable) group that has a chain of command that is actually a circle, but nobody involves knows it's a circle, and so they continue following old orders that they themselves issued much earlier, but which have since become unrecognizable?

If there is, I'm guessing they're Acheronian.

EDIT: Bonus points if nobody involved agrees with the objective anymore, but they all keep quiet about it to avoid offending their supposed superiors.

Reposting in case it wasn't noticed.

[Dalmosh]

Is it then an intrinsically evil act to create a golem, because you have to enslave a sentient being to do so?

How were Elder Eidolons powered?

[ksbsnowowl]

What outsiders procreate in the "normal" biological way? I know fiends and celestials are often the advanced forms of petitioners, so they generally would not (aside from making half-fiends, etc) procreate biologically. But what about Genies? IIRC, MotP mentions that the Djinn organize into palaces of familial groups. I would assume Native outsiders would all procreate "normally."

Some outsiders, such as Sladdi, obviously have unusual means of procreation spelled out in their entries. But what about the myriad other beings? Mercanes, Angels, Barghests, Genies, Howlers, Night Hags, Titans, etc? Should it be assumed they procreate in a normal, biological way?

[Eldan]

Can you see any deeper logic behind the name of Pandemonium's layers? I mean, my theory is that they just stuck on random hellish-sounding words, but one can hope. I'm mainly wondering why a dark, windswept cavern is called "Phlegeton", which means "the flaming" and is one of the rivers of the underworld. Or why Agathion, which Wiki tells me is the Greek name for a witch's familiar. I do get Cocytus.

[Caelestion]

Well, given that daemonion originally meant 'little spirit', co-opting the Greek word for a familiar spirit as one of the planar layers does make thematic sense. I agree that Cocytus/Kokytos ('lamentation') suits the general vibe in Pandemonium, but I suppose that once you've ripped off one river in Hades, ripping off another (Phlegethon) makes sense too.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Bunch o' questions about gods and godhood for you, Afro.

0) Is there an official collective term for demon princes, archdevils, archomentals, and similar very powerful unique elementals and outsiders with special power over certain planar regions? (I'll just call them "planar lords" in further questions for brevity.)

1) Is the thing where planar lords can grant spells to their followers, but can't actually do so themselves and have to channel power from another god (e.g. Yeenoghu channeling power from Erythnul and Erythnul getting Yeenoghu's worship in return), a Planescape thing or something the 3e D&DG retconned? I can't find mention of that in older sources.

1A) If yes to (1), do we know which gods empower which planar lords, and are there special criteria to doing that sort of thing or can anyone fake being a god with a "Hey, I want cultists, you want worship, let's do this" deal?

1B) If no to (1), are there any qualitative differences in the kind of power a planar lord can grant compared to that granted by a god (fewer followers empowered at once, fewer spell levels granted, fewer sphere/domain options available, etc.)?

2) Aside from Lolth and sorta kinda Tenebrous, are there any other beings that are/were both gods and planar lords?

3) Are there any downsides to being both a god and a planar lord (aside from in specific spheres like Toril where being gods makes you very dependent on worship where a planar lord is independent of that)? Lolth seems to be doing just fine.

3A) If no to (3), is there a particular reason why more planar lords don't aim for godhood, or do they in fact mostly want to be gods and it's just hard to get there?

4) Do we know the specifics on what's actually necessary to resurrect a dead god? All Dead Gods says about resurrecting Orcus is the following:

Quah-Namog stands and chants on the base of Tenebrous' brow, right between his master's eyes. Around him lie the sacrifices he's made to complete his enchantment and empower the ritual. The priest has destroyed a book of exalted deeds, a mace of disruption, a holy sword, a talisman of pure good, and a white robe of the archmagi. He's also slain three poor elves who were his enemies back on his prime-material home-world.

If Quah-Namog sees the PCs approach, he quickens the pace of the ritual by skipping right to the final portion - the use of the resurrection scroll.

So apparently it requires sacrifices of artifacts (in addition to a focus artifact containing the god's essence like the wand of Orcus), and maybe sacrifices of people (unless that's specific to Orcus, or Quah-Namog was just feeling vengeful that day), but if you can "skip to the end" that implies that (A) there's more to the ritual than just those sacrifices and (B) maybe none of the steps up to and including the sacrifices are actually necessary to the ritual in the first place. So what's the deal?