afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Gildedragon]

Normally I'd agree, but in Naberius' case; tome of magic lifted every piece of fluff (minus the marquis of hell bit) directly from the aforementioned source(s). Each of his names, forms he appears as, the design of the seal, the benefits he bestows, even the theory about some relation to the Greek Cerberus... it's all copy-paste.

I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore. I mean, going by the pictures he even looks like a Tanar'ri, so it should've been easy enough to slot him into that side of things. It just feels... unfinished, hence my desire to come up with a Fiend-based headcanon.

Anycase, thank you very much for your input.

Ditto for most of them. Ronove, for example, is very goetic

[afroakuma]

I don't think the devil is related. Probably just a naming coincidence.

I rather agree. I suspect whoever wrote that either didn't know the name was in use, or forgot.

Normally I'd agree, but in Naberius' case; tome of magic lifted every piece of fluff (minus the marquis of hell bit) directly from the aforementioned source(s). Each of his names, forms he appears as, the design of the seal, the benefits he bestows, even the theory about some relation to the Greek Cerberus... it's all copy-paste.

That suggests laziness more than intent.

I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore.

If they did, it would be spectacularly boring. "He's Geryon, but less relevant." Do you want me to make up a fiend-based background for him? Would that make you happier? I can do that, I just felt the one I created was much more inventive.

[Tzardok]

I liked that version of Naberius, we don't need another one. But if you are in an inventing mood, the Qorrash are still leaderless.

[Jowgen]

If they did, it would be spectacularly boring. "He's Geryon, but less relevant." Do you want me to make up a fiend-based background for him? Would that make you happier?

Thank you for the kind offer; but I'd rather not impose. Forcing/demanding a different Afrocanon just because the one given differs from expectation is akin to heresy as far as I'm concerned.


On a completely different topic though: Fey. Other than the Fey feature articles, they don't get a lot of love afaik; so questions about their racial origins, place on the cosmic chessboard and their pantheon go largely unanswered.

In your opinion, are the Fey "relevant" in the grand scheme of things and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?

[Lord_Gareth]

It is said that The Unwelcome is worshiped by harpies. What is their "church" like? Favorite sacrifice? Clerics?

[Tzardok]

The Unwelcome? Do you mean the female demon lord Barbu? (what the abyss do you call that? A demon lady?) Or is there some other divine being with that title?

[hamishspence]

"Demon Queen" tends to be the usual counterpart used "Demon Queen of Spiders" "Demon Queen of Mariliths" and so on - though some use "Lady of"

So, if Ardat The Unavowed was feeling boastful, she might announce herself as "Demon Queen of Harpies".

[Wraith]

I did a little bit of reading into the mythical beginning of the D&D cosmology and discovered 4 of the entities who were present at the "big bang"; the twinned serpants whose separation created the heavens and hells, Ao the Allfather, and the Lady of Pain.

I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point? Who or what are the Ancient Brethren? And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?

[afroakuma]

In your opinion, are the Fey "relevant" in the grand scheme of things

The first two gods in my canon were Io and Rhiannon, you tell me.

and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?

I'm not 100% sure what this is asking.

It is said that The Unwelcome is worshiped by harpies.

Well, I mean, it's not. You're thinking of Ardat, the Unavowed. I mean, I know you're actually thinking of Barbu because you think her title is hilarious and you want more details, but you made a fritzed connection this time, Chuckles.

I did a little bit of reading into the mythical beginning of the D&D cosmology and discovered 4 of the entities who were present at the "big bang"; the twinned serpants whose separation created the heavens and hells, Ao the Allfather, and the Lady of Pain.

Well, none of that is canonically established whatsoever. But sure.

I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point?

At the beginning of the multiverse, there was no existence native to it within it. Escapees from a prior multiverse, the leShay, had found refuge in this one (though when they arrived, who can say).

Who or what are the Ancient Brethren?

I just did this.

The Ancient Brethren were an antediluvian people from the world of Oerth, who had tapped into the secrets of powerful magic by studying words of the Language Primeval, a tongue associated with epic magic. At some point, they were conflated with the idea of vastly powerful cosmic beings, via a series of misreadings, culminating in loose speculation in a "mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon 359. Many legends are connected to them, including one of many rumors bouncing around the Planes suggesting that the Lady of Pain was once of their kindred, and it is the understanding of the lich-god Vecna that he is a descendant of this race.

And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?

Squirrels, robe, etc...

[Bronk]

I don't think the authors really thought through what that meant - the section on demiplanes in the Manual of the Planes spells out that demiplanes aren't accessible except where they're coterminous. One word strikes me as particularly revealing, however - "natural." My suspicion is that Union is an Astral-originated demiplane which the mercanes somehow severed from natural coterminous status with the Astral Plane via what are probably artifact-level anchors to the broader multiverse whose moorings shift. If you want an interesting plot hook, perhaps unbinding more than one of the portals at a time poses a risk to the stability of Union, and finding a way to unbind all three simultaneously would cause it to become "lost."

Thanks! It's great that you're back, and I appreciate the plot hook.

I have a couple of questions for you...

First, you've mentioned a few times in this new thread that you made a list of gods. Where could I find that?



The other question I had is about something concerning deities and I was wondering if there was any more info out there. I've seen come up in a number of novels that the gods have a sort of extra level of reality that they sometimes inhabit that isn't described as being part of the regularly accessible planes, nor does it appear to be part of their divine realm. While there, they are larger than life, and what affects them there appears to be permanent and final to their existence.

In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.

In the Lady Penitent series (The first two of which, at least, were in 3.5), Elistraee and Lolth are playing a for-keeps game of sava with lesser beings as pawns, in a place between their divine realms overseen by Ao, who appears as a giant eye far above where they are. At some point, their pawns are transported to a plane where the colossal form of (I think) Guandahar is roaming, they kill it, and evidently it's his true form, and he's dead for good... he had an avatar at Lloth's feet, and he keeled right over.

So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime? Something else? Does the view from these two sets of books represent different things?

[afroakuma]

First, you've mentioned a few times in this new thread that you made a list of gods. Where could I find that?

Inside the spoiler.

In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.

I am quite familiar, yes.

So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime?

It's not a god-only plane; the fact that mortal magic was able to nose in on it seems to comfortably rule that out. Given the extent to which the Sensates' show was about the rare experience of getting to spy quite nosily on the gods, I would suggest that it represents a horning-in on their private perceptual spheres - Chauntea would have a place in her realm in which she sows in a field that represents Faerun, for instance, and things done to that field would reflect her imposition of her power on the Prime. Lathander's trod was nothing she had to let happen, at best it was a petulant suggestion, with all the impact of a child knocking over a pile of blocks if she decided to clean it up. The gods do tend to operate via proxies, avatars, and projections, even in their own realms. Tymora's Luck shows what happens when a god is present in person; Beshaba is a vast giantess who hemorrhages misfortune, until she decides to manifest as something else. It's been alluded to at times that even these humanoid manifestations aren't the "true forms" or core essences of the powers. No source has ever tried to dig into the details, however.

[Jowgen]

The first two gods in my canon were Io and Rhiannon, you tell me.

I'm not 100% sure what this is asking.

After some digging I finally found Rhiannon in dragon 155 (which, incidentally, really showed me just how much the Fey fell to the wayside in the transition to 3rd ed). May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania, and what's their relation in (your) canon?

What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel, so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon; when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.

[gkathellar]

If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived? Would a totally new one emerge?

Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?

[Tzardok]

After some digging I finally found Rhiannon in dragon 155 (which, incidentally, really showed me just how much the Fey fell to the wayside in the transition to 3rd ed). May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania, and what's their relation in (your) canon?

I asked the same question on the first page of the thread. The answer-post is here.

I apologize for linking the whole post; I haven't figured out yet how to quote more than one post that way.

[Rogthnor]

Two Questions:

1. How much effect does belief have on the makeup of the non-outer planes? I know it has changed the exemplars and makeup of the outer planes, but I don't think I have ever seen belief cause one of the other planes or their denizens to change.

2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?

[Svata]

I asked the same question on the first page of the thread. The answer-post is here.

I apologize for linking the whole post; I haven't figured out yet how to quote more than one post that way.

Just to the right of "reply with quote is "+. Click that on every post you wanna quote.

[afroakuma]

May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania

Because the mythology around Titania suggests she arose from somewhere, rather than being one of the oldest deities in the multiverse.

What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel

If you mean on the Outer Planes as a whole, the certainly... but that's sort of like saying dragons are side characters on the Great Wheel.

so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon;

Why not?

when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.

The leaders of the eladrin? Why do that?

If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived?

Yep.

Would a totally new one emerge?

Depends on the belief. If it's pretty consistently belief for that deity specifically, it will return them. If not... it could create a functionally new power.

Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?

Yes indeed. The adventure module Dead Gods specifically covers the struggles of Orcus to return to life with the help of a powerful artifact and his high priest.

1. How much effect does belief have on the makeup of the non-outer planes?

Zero.

2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?

Unless a god is actively using remote sensing within their realm, the only information they normally possess is anything they could personally sense locally. A god of intermediate or lesser rank can potentially hear everything that goes on within their realm; a greater god has a realm larger than the range of their hearing. Similarly, an intermediate or lesser god can see to the borders of their realm (provided they have an unobstructed view).

Without specific abilities pertaining to hidden knowledge, a god does not know anything other than what could be externally perceived about you. Some deities may possess abilities to transcend these limitations, or of course employ powerful magic for a similar purpose.

[gkathellar]

Coming off of that earlier question, two more:

1. What in Asmo's name is the story with Orcus being Tenebrous and whatnot? He was a demon prince (Orcus), and then he was killed and became a god (Tenebrous), and then became Orcus again, or ... yeah, if you could break this one down for me, I'd appreciate it.

2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?

Without specific abilities pertaining to hidden knowledge, a god does not know anything other than what could be externally perceived about you. Some deities may possess abilities to transcend these limitations, or of course employ powerful magic for a similar purpose.

Presumably, though, the probability of a god of wizards like Boccob not having such powerful magic in place rests squarely in the realm of nope.

[afroakuma]

1. What in Asmo's name is the story with Orcus being Tenebrous and whatnot? He was a demon prince (Orcus), and then he was killed and became a god (Tenebrous), and then became Orcus again, or ... yeah, if you could break this one down for me, I'd appreciate it.

In essence, through some strange happenstance of the planes, Orcus's death catalyzed his divinity - but Kiaransalee had already been working to douse the spark. Tenebrous became a sort of "undead god," barely more than a vestige, the ambulatory residue of a being of belief slowly circling the drain. Through the rediscovery of his hidden Wand and the efforts of his high priest Quah-Namog, Orcus was restored to life, but the transition brought him back as a demon prince anew, rather than a god. It's possible that Orcus's associations with death and undeath were responsible for this strange set of circumstances.

2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?

It's in some ways up to the deities themselves - that kind of thing doesn't happen overnight, after all, and most gods would attempt to step in and square things out. Where you don't see that happening so much is in cases when one god desires to usurp another. Let's take Shar as an example, since this is her jam.

Shar sends in agents who claim to serve the other god - Eshowdow, for instance, a Chultan deity of shadow. These worshipers teach rites and practices that, while uttered in the name of Eshowdow, are done in veneration of the Dark Goddess. The manifestations that answer the prayers of these worshipers will be Shar in disguise. Sectarian infighting is likely to result, and the syncretism that follows will see either Shar's traditions or Eshowdow's predominate, determining whether the worship is hers or his. Occasionally one just straight-up murders the other to make the process cleaner - Shar ganked Ibrandul and then pretended to be him for years in order to acquire his portfolio of caverns.e.[/QUOTE]

[tyckspoon]

Presumably, though, the probability of a god of wizards like Boccob not having such powerful magic in place rests squarely in the realm of nope.

He certainly has the capability, but Boccob may not be the best example of that kind of thing. His best known epithet/title is The Uncaring, after all - the level of interest/paranoia/suspicion/whatever required to want to surveil every little happening in his divine realm just isn't there.

[Gildedragon]

He certainly has the capability, but Boccob may not be the best example of that kind of thing. His best known epithet/title is The Uncaring, after all - the level of interest/paranoia/suspicion/whatever required to want to surveil every little happening in his divine realm just isn't there.

On the flipside Wee Jaz is precisely that paranoid. It takes some commitment to squirrel away the bulk of one's divine power so as to not be much noticed by other powers

[gkathellar]

Can you speculate on what would happen to the Abyssal balance of power if Orcus were to achieve proper godhood? I presume even his disinterest would change things, since it would give Graz'zt and Demogorgon room to maneuver.

[afroakuma]

Can you speculate on what would happen to the Abyssal balance of power if Orcus were to achieve proper godhood?

I thought I'd answered this in a past thread, just had to dig it up.

It would put the other two [Grazz't and Demogorgon] on high alert, and it would change the dynamics of Lolth's interactions with the rest.

Orcus would have more power on the Material Plane to crush their cults, and more personal power to pressure his foes with.

Lolth has a special role among the preeminent lords of the Abyss, as she's one of their number in addition to being a goddess ("Demon Queen of Spiders"). As the only deity in the "gang," she's got special influence and a unique role in Abyssal politics, one that she'd start to feel crowded out of if there was suddenly a new god in town.

[Jowgen]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt, who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?

Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?

[Khedrac]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt, who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?

A partial answer to this is "not initially". Graz'zt is very much a deceiver (although he is not the 'Prince of Deception' - that is Fraz Urb Luu); thus the initial reaction of pretty much all of Graz'zt's enemies, allies and underlings will be "what trick is he pulling now?"
Any move to take advantage of his disappearance will be cautious probes to see what happens, followed by forces they can afford to lose when any trap is sprung; only once they are sure (really, really sure) he is gone will other demon lords use sufficient force to endanger themselves should it go wrong.
Compare this to when one of the less subtle demon lords vanish - instant mobilization from anyone with a stake in what happens.
Yes, they have more to gain when fighting over Graz'zt's territories, but the initial reaction will be much less than for other lesser players who are less likely to be pulling a fast one.

Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?

I think a lot of this is because Graz'zt is all about politics and plots within plots (within plots). When characters get embroiled in one of his schemes, Graz'zt won't be the BBEG, he will be using the characters against someone else who will be the BBEG (see Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). Yes, Graz'zt will be trying to reap any rewards for what happens, but he won't be the one the characters need to stop (which is not to say they cannot go up against him, but it won't affect whatever they are trying to avert).
The only time when PCs might go up against Graz'zt directly is when someone else is setting Graz'zt up as the BBEG...

[Khedrac]

Afroakuma,

I was browsing the boards at the Piazza and I came across this question link (full text below) and I thought "now there's an Afro question if I ever saw one".

I've seen different sources claim that The Abyss either has an infinite number of layers...or 666 of them. (I think 666 sounds better, personally, but I'd like to know about anything that documents more than 666 layers too.)

The Abyss (Dungeons & Dragons) article on Wikipedia has a section about the Layers, but 19 of the layer entries have citations to back up what is written.

How many of the different layers have been created in Manual of the Planes (1e, 3e or 4e) or Planescape canon?

How much canon exists to document each layer? Are some layers just names, with no other details? Do some layers have their own "rules of nature"?

Has anyone (maybe Planewalker) ever organised a project to create fanon layers to fill in the gaps...or add more detail to canon layers that lack details?

The Wikipedia article mentions Forgotten Realms and the Abyss. How much detail does Forgotten Realms canon add to The Abyss?

I've seen Dragonlance novels talk about The Abyss as part of a bespoke cosmology, but Wikipedia also says that two of the evil deities from Dragonlance have their own realms in The Abyss. How do people get the Dragonlance stuff to fit in with the Planescape/Manual of the Planes stuff?

What other D&D campaign settings have a relationship with The Abyss in their canon? And what "core" canon would you localise as being the canon of Greyhawk, Nentir Vale and/or Forgotten Realms?

Would you be interested enough to wander across and have a look, or should I re-post some of gems of wisdom back over there?

[Eldan]

There's plenty of layers which never got more than a name, at least. I think the deepest layer is still Kali's domain, which is six hundred forty something, off the top of my head.

As for fitting other settings into Planescape, Planescape just claims that all settings are part of it. Setting specific material that contradicts Planescape is just primitive prime material people misunderstanding how the planes work. Dark Sun had its own planes too, and yet there's still Dark Sun characters in Planescape.

[Tzardok]

The currently deepest layer is Nr. 663: Zionyn, the realm of Obox-Ob, which is overrun with fiendish vermin and insect-like demons. This is the only place in the abyss where you can find cities of ekolids, an obyrith species that is normaly to stupid and feral to build cities or take class levels.

[afroakuma]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt, who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?

No.

Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?

What do you mean "never?"

Afroakuma,

I was browsing the boards at the Piazza and I came across this question link (full text below) and I thought "now there's an Afro question if I ever saw one".
Would you be interested enough to wander across and have a look, or should I re-post some of gems of wisdom back over there?

I suppose I should.

[gkathellar]

As for fitting other settings into Planescape, Planescape just claims that all settings are part of it. Setting specific material that contradicts Planescape is just primitive prime material people misunderstanding how the planes work. Dark Sun had its own planes too, and yet there's still Dark Sun characters in Planescape.

Athas is specifically integrated into the cosmology, but is cut off from the Outer Planes by internal factors. It's likely that Athasians had access to them in the past, but something about the state of their world now limits them to the Ethereal, Inner, and distinctly Athasian Planes. This isn't limited to the living - the dead are likewise unable to find their way to the Great Wheel.

Eberron's situation is likely similar, as Baker has tacitly stated that it's probably just distant from the main cosmology. Mystara is the other outstanding setting, and fro has a more complex view on that but still holds that it's connected.