afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[gkathellar]

So what exactly happened to the Queen of Chaos?

[afroakuma]

What, if anything, can PCs do to piss of gods as a group?

Anything that interferes with clerics generally, or threatens the standing or power of gods on a given world. For instance, having regular access to violet rain, a weather condition that blocks out divine magic, would probably tick them off. Mind you, there's no conventional way to gain regular access to that, but hey, plot devices.

Also, yes, unborn souls.

Aoskar - or, rather, a 'god of portals' seems like a pretty cool idea. Have I got the timeline right? Aoskar was a power of something else, and tried to claim the portfolio of Portals - but doing so would, in itself, have given him influence over the City of Doors, and the Lady couldn't allow that. Hence his flaying.

So, are other deities now afraid of attempting to claim that portfolio element?

What about the existence of the Portal domain (Spell Compendium) - are there gods who claim that domain and does it relate to this history? (Or is it just Bad Writing?)

Aoskar was a god of portals. Him migrating his base of worship (and eventually a temple) into Sigil, and then acquiring a dabus as a worshiper, is what got him shredded. There's nothing the Lady inherently worries herself about with the "portals" portfolio.

So what exactly happened to the Queen of Chaos?

Her boyfriend got ganked and she started losing her war, so she took her toys and went home. She still lives on... I think it's the 14th layer of the Abyss.

[gkathellar]

If she could somehow regain influence in the Abyss, would/could she prosecute the Blood War more zealously? Who would?

[Naanomi]

How would 'other' Magic systems work on Athas? Incarnum and Binding, True Naming and Shadowmagic, etc

[afroakuma]

If she could somehow regain influence in the Abyss, would/could she prosecute the Blood War more zealously?

It's not merely about influence, it also has to do with having the necessary forces to do her thing. The obyriths were depleted preposterously after the War of Law and Chaos, and the coalition she'd formed broke apart and factionalized to a level that would be near impossible to bring back together. Even if she had a mighty tanar'ri general again, she'd try to reignite hostilities - there's a 2E adventure module about this, in point of fact.

How would 'other' Magic systems work on Athas? Incarnum and Binding, True Naming and Shadowmagic, etc

Now that's a very interesting question. Let's dissect it.

Psionics
You didn't ask about psionics, but I think it's an important starting point to reference, because of course psionics are quite prevalent on Athas. They aren't natively involved in the cycle of defiling and preservation (though many high-level casters of both kinds use advanced psionics to empower themselves still further in their chosen discipline). This gives us a baseline understanding of supernatural systems being able to exist in Athas without being linked to the life force of the land.

Incarnum
Incarnum is the borrowed life energy of the world, generated from the living, the dead, and even the unborn. On a planet where life force itself is frequently contaminated, depleted, or annihilated as a cost of channeling arcane magic, incarnum is likely to run into some issues - defilers are more than likely able to weaken wielders of incarnum via their regular casting alone. Furthermore, the dead of Athas do not leave clean imprints as they journey through the Astral Plane to their final rest; they are trapped in the Gray. Essentia, the incarnum generated and stored within the self, is likely untouched by this issue, but ambient incarnum is most likely strongly influenced by a permanent atmospheric "contamination." I'd suggest that soulmelds on Athas likely appear warped and skeletal, bearing the hallmarks of the creatures native to the plane; that essentia and feats which use it directly would be the more popular method of wielding incarnum; and that the magic of defilers can force a Concentration check to avoid losing a shaped soulmeld and having to reform it. Odds are that while essentia still takes on a pure bluish hue, most ambient incarnum is of a nasty green, gray, and yellow patina, perhaps coppery on occasion.

Binding
As vestiges are beyond the normal order of the Planes, it's unlikely that the strange planar phenomena surrounding Athas would impede a binder in any fashion. The abilities granted by vestiges are supernatural in nature, and should not inherently interact with defiling or preserving. Given the relative isolation of the world, it's plausible that fewer vestiges than normal are known on Athas... at least for now, though hideous seals found in cyclopean ruins beyond the fringes of the horizons of the fringes of civilization (that's not a mistake) may unlock the secrets of older contacts with the most antediluvian entities of the beyond. It's possible that the presence of an alien force sharing a living soul in this way interferes with nearby defilers or preservers, forcing Spellcraft checks to stabilize their magic. One interesting notion is that there may be a way for a skilled defiler to exploit a soul bind, using strange and terrible rites beyond even the normal perversity of the defiling "art" to channel additional power through the tap-line to a cosmic force that, while not strictly alive, most definitely exists. Such a connection might go both ways, however, offering the tantalizing possibility of a vestige finding a way to take on a half-existence both in and out of the Great Wheel through incarnation as a living defiler spell of some kind. Many vestiges would pursue even this shadow of reality, and certainly there are defilers foolish enough to try, not realizing the potential consequences of joining with a vast alien existence one means to exploit for power.

Shadow Magic
Shadow magic may well have been one of the principles drawn on by Rajaat to conceive of defiling. It has a similar basic principle - reflection - and operates on the basis of using the shadows of living things, among other shadows, to accomplish its ends. The Plane of Shadow, IIRC, is still accessible from Athas despite its contemporaries forming the Gray, so shadow magic should be fully functional on the dying world. While it would surely be less openly despised than defiling, the nature of shadow magic and the natural fear and hatred most express toward wielders of magic regardless would surely win a shadowcaster no friends. It's plausible that the unnatural cosmological turbulence around Athas creates a bizarre distancing from the Plane of Shadow, or allows voices from the Gray - its nature horrifically distorted due to the magical pollution - to seep through in some minor but disturbing ways into a shadowcaster's magic and their own personal connection with Shadow, resulting in whispers of the decaying damned susurrating eerily around a shadowcaster and their works. The gleanings a shadowcaster gains from such maddened whispers might result in a +2 bonus to Int-based skill checks, while the sinister and nigh-imperceptible aura of gloom such a drone would produce would result in a -2 penalty to Cha-based skill checks.

Truenaming
Truenaming is not magic in the conventional sense, but rather addressing the primal ordering of the multiverse itself in the language it speaks. While it should work on Athas, it's hard to imagine it exists to any substantial extent. It may have been part of the arts of the ancient rhulisti so very long ago, and while bits and pieces of the long-forgotten skill may linger in their ruins, it's not very likely that such fragments would be sufficient to even begin dabbling in the art. Nonetheless, it may have been found somehow, perhaps in a star-tome fallen from the skies long ago. Perhaps it can still be found in the ancient bones of the world, or distilled from the fading recollections of the pyreen.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Anything that interferes with clerics generally, or threatens the standing or power of gods on a given world. For instance, having regular access to violet rain, a weather condition that blocks out divine magic, would probably tick them off. Mind you, there's no conventional way to gain regular access to that, but hey, plot devices.

Also, yes, unborn souls.

Doesn‘t sound like something a PC could trigger accidentally... Which was the reason for my question: I‘m working on a high-level character who specifically wishes to avoid becoming entangled in divine affairs.

If said character would interfere with divine plans or representation on the material plane, how much would a god know about that? Obviously, a god would know or could learn anything her followers know, but what about stuff they don‘t know?

Let‘s say that somebody destroys a major temple of Bane and manages to do so without being seen or leaving any traces that humans could use to discover the person‘s identity. Would portfolio sense or some other means allow Bane to find out?

[afroakuma]

Doesn‘t sound like something a PC could trigger accidentally... Which was the reason for my question: I‘m working on a high-level character who specifically wishes to avoid becoming entangled in divine affairs.

I mean, "accidentally" triggering the wrath of multiple gods simultaneously kind of feels a bit disingenuous, simply because it's the kind of circumstance where if a group of gods was sufficiently worried about a particular thing, they'd have taken sufficient steps to protect against it that it would be nigh-impossible to reasonably claim "I didn't know" and "I didn't mean to." You're not going to accidentally trip over a rock and knock out the Cork of All Worlds from the rift it was stoppering up because you're not going to be anywhere near it without having deliberately gone there, and the gods would have worked to ensure that nobody has a legitimate reason for both going there and doing so in a fashion that risks uncorking a rift. The gods already know mortals are stupid. The last thing they want is to have the sound heralding the apocalypse be "oops."

If said character would interfere with divine plans or representation on the material plane, how much would a god know about that? Obviously, a god would know or could learn anything her followers know, but what about stuff they don‘t know?

"A deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity." Unless you have a god on your side, that's virtually unblockable. Assuming the god's worshipers aren't radioing back to home base that some adventurers are thwarting their work, the god can still cast their senses into the area and pick up on any notable irritants with relative ease. They can also use these senses at locations relevant to their worship, including places that are not sites of worship. Then, of course, there's the portfolio sense. Tl;dr gods know a lot more about what's going on in their world than just the sum of followers' knowledge.

Let‘s say that somebody destroys a major temple of Bane and manages to do so without being seen or leaving any traces that humans could use to discover the person‘s identity. Would portfolio sense or some other means allow Bane to find out?

Bane would probably know about it before it happened, at least in a general sense, and would be watching that temple to keep tabs on it. Even without such an early alert, a major temple of Bane probably catches his notice frequently enough that it would be essentially impossible to stop him from picking up on who did it.

[VisitingDaGulag]

OP, do you assume that 3e is a continuation of all unupdated fluff from AD&D? It is understandable to do so, but I have never found any rules that mentioned this as default (unlike the 3.5 rules discussing 3.0 rules).

I confess, I haven't read the Dragon Magazine articles in detail from when 3rd edition first came out. As best I can tell, 3e can be considered in a vacuum.

[afroakuma]

OP, do you assume that 3e is a continuation of all unupdated fluff from AD&D?

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Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior.

[Tryxx]

You're not going to accidentally trip over a rock and knock out the Cork of All Worlds from the rift it was stoppering up because you're not going to be anywhere near it without having deliberately gone there, and the gods would have worked to ensure that nobody has a legitimate reason for both going there and doing so in a fashion that risks uncorking a rift. The gods already know mortals are stupid. The last thing they want is to have the sound heralding the apocalypse be "oops."

This is just a day in the life of Tasslehoff Burfoot, I think

Anyway:

I was Google'ing around for some Plane of Shadow plothooks and ideas, and came across this post on the canonfire forums. My question is about the following idea copied here: "The third edition Tome of Magic also mentions the City of Onyx, capital of the khayal genies. Maybe it's a shadow of Ekbir or Zeif, or even of the lost capital of the Baklunish Empire which once stood near Tovag Baragu. Or perhaps the fires of the elemental planes cast their own flickering shadows, and the City of Onyx is somehow a twisted reflection of the City of Brass of the efreet. One quality of shadows is that they can overlap."

It just got me wondering about why if the Plane of Shadows is the place where shadows terminate, what's the justification of the Inner and Outer planes not being as coexistent with the Plane of Shadow now that it's no longer a demiplane?

Also: Belphegor. Just Belphegor. Because you can't have an afroakuma Q&A thread without her.

[afroakuma]

It just got me wondering about why if the Plane of Shadows is the place where shadows terminate, what's the justification of the Inner and Outer planes not being as coexistent with the Plane of Shadow now that it's no longer a demiplane?

As you might imagine, they weren't conscientious enough to go ahead and provide a justification, so at best it'll have to be conjectural: Shadow is the "shadow" of the Material Plane, originally existing long ago at the crux of Positive and Negative Energy as an Inner Planar phenomenon. By definition never having previously been linked to the other Inner Planes, when it broke off into a demiplane (and later full transitive plane) it lost even those links it once had. What it remains is what it has to some extent always been: A mirror of the Material Plane devoid of the elemental building blocks that give form and nature to the light and the dark, to Positive and Negative, leaving them only each other. The Outer Planes have never had a direct link to Shadow because their own conduits to the Inner Planes are different from the "center of all" thing they have going with the Prime Material Plane and always have been. It's worth noting that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral, so connections with Outer Planes can still be formed on occasion.

Of course, that's just in the Great Wheel cosmology. As the Manual of the Planes states, in other cosmologies Shadow may connect with other arrangements of planes in much different ways, such as being the primary transitive route to the Lower Planes of another cosmology.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's worth noting that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral, so connections with Outer Planes can still be formed on occasion.

Coexistent? Or coterminous?

[afroakuma]

Coexistent? Or coterminous?

Coexistent (Manual of the Planes p.61)

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh! That is significantly different than I thought. Co-existent is what the Etherial is to the Prime, isn't it? That's a significantly closer relationship between the Shadow and the Astral than I had thought.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Bane would probably know about it before it happened, at least in a general sense, and would be watching that temple to keep tabs on it. Even without such an early alert, a major temple of Bane probably catches his notice frequently enough that it would be essentially impossible to stop him from picking up on who did it.

So, the solution seems to be to go Yuan-Ti and manipulate someone else into doing the deed, in a way that leaves that person unable to identify the manipulator. If this is done with enough temporal and physical distance from the actual event, the god might still be able to pick up that the perpetrator is not really responsible, but shouldn’t be able to find out who is.

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh! That is significantly different than I thought. Co-existent is what the Etherial is to the Prime, isn't it? That's a significantly closer relationship between the Shadow and the Astral than I had thought.

The 3.5 Planar Handbook p137 indicates the Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Prime; it doesn't indicate that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral but it's not an in-depth writeup so it wouldn't by necessity be mentioned in the PlH.

Are there any other planes that are coexistent with two or more partner planes?

[Tzardok]

So, the solution seems to be to go Yuan-Ti and manipulate someone else into doing the deed, in a way that leaves that person unable to identify the manipulator. If this is done with enough temporal and physical distance from the actual event, the god might still be able to pick up that the perpetrator is not really responsible, but shouldn’t be able to find out who is.

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

Just assume that this story, like every other story about Asmodeus, is infernal propaganda and unlikely to be completely or even mostly true.

[lord pringle]

You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

[Brookshw]

Glad to see this thread's back. It appears there's a blog to check out.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Just assume that this story, like every other story about Asmodeus, is infernal propaganda and unlikely to be completely or even mostly true.

Sure, that may or may not be so. But either way, the story doesn't tell us where chaotic gods come from. Which Afro might be able to.

[Tzardok]

You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

Of the Lords that exist today, Zariel, Dispater, Belial, Levistus and Mephistopheles fell with Asmodeus.

Sure, that may or may not be so. But either way, the story doesn't tell us where chaotic gods come from. Which Afro might be able to.

If I remember correctly, Afro once speculated that the "deities of law" in the story are in fact the aphanacts, a group of extinct angelic beings of law. Some speculate that Asmodeus and/or the archons are fallen or ascended aphanacts.
Afrocanon on the origin of deities, both lawful and chaotic, is something like descendents of the Dragons that where the enemies of the Draeden. I would have to read his creation myth from the fifth thread again to be sure.

[gkathellar]

Can you conjecture on why the Plane of Shadow doesn't possess more Positive Energy phenomena and creatures?

[afroakuma]

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

Yes: it's a really dumb story. Obviously Chaos has more faces than just "demons," but it didn't serve the writers to go into any particular amount of detail on that side of things, not with a mere four pages to explain how very clever their take on Asmodeus was. If you insist on cleaving to this explanation, then "chaos" as described encompasses not just chaotic evil, but also chaotic neutral and chaotic good; further, the gods of those alignments would logically have arisen on their own from the ancient chaos, just as their antitheses appeared to combat them.

You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

We don't know about their names, but among those to have fallen were Mephistopheles, Dispater, Zariel, Belial, and Levistus. Sources exist to support that Lucifer was one of the fallen, and he at least changed his name to Beherit. I'm assuming you didn't actually mean "Dukes," since that's a much broader question and one without sufficient sources for answers.

Glad to see this thread's back. It appears there's a blog to check out.

Well, I mean, I have a blog; it has very little to do with D&D, however. It's mostly for politics, television, movies, and board games. Occasional comedic articles, as well.

Can you conjecture on why the Plane of Shadow doesn't possess more Positive Energy phenomena and creatures?

Arguably it does - they're the living.

[Naanomi]

A few threads ago you said you'd share your thoughts on what the 'space' areas far from the spheres of Carceri and volcanoes of Gehenna might contain... care to elaborate now?

[inuyasha]

Is there anything stated on the position of Tieflings in the blood war, and what (if involved at all) their station is on either side?

[Tzardok]

The term 'cannon fodder for whoever press gangs them' comes to mind.

[Mr Adventurer]

Looks like my earlier question may have been missed - are there planes, or demiplanes or other spaces, other than the Shadow (Material/Astral) that are coexistent with more than one plane?

[Tzardok]

Didn't the Dungeon Master's Guide claim that the Astral is coexistent with every other plane?

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah yes - p150. Looks like I missed this fundamental bit!

[Mr Adventurer]

What do we know about the fiend previously bound to be Ashardalon's heart?