afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[JoeyTheNeko]

ha. not, it definitely was not. but then, no plan to take sigil away from the lady is a good one.
besides darkwoods, aoskars and vecnas, have there been any other noteable attempts to take sigil away from the lady?

[afroakuma]

besides darkwoods, aoskars and vecnas, have there been any other noteable attempts to take sigil away from the lady?

Technically yes, but technically no. So, no.

[JoeyTheNeko]

we have gods of lichs, gods of vampires..
any notable mummy gods? or gods of other sentient and ensouled undead?

[Naanomi]

Technically yes, but technically no. So, no.

I seem to remember discussion that both sides of the War of Law and Chaos made a cursory run at it when Sigil was first 'discovered'; to use as a war-base in the conflict... obviously never really went anywhere

[JoeyTheNeko]

so why did nerul, a power of murder, create a living creature? (the garngraths) it just seems odd that he would make any living thing, and not like, an undead thing.

[afroakuma]

we have gods of lichs, gods of vampires..
any notable mummy gods?

Does Osiris count?

or gods of other sentient and ensouled undead?

Doresain, King of Ghouls... annnnnd that's about it.

so why did nerul, a power of murder, create a living creature? (the garngraths)

He didn't. Erythnul did.

[JoeyTheNeko]

bah put the wrong god. still doesn't make sense for a power of murder to create a living race.

[afroakuma]

bah put the wrong god. still doesn't make sense for a power of murder to create a living race.

He's not a god of murder, so pull the other one. I don't think your position is defensible in se, for that matter.

[JoeyTheNeko]

ah, must go back through my books. guess I got hairs crossed. my bad.

[rigsmal]

More questions:

Why and when did Her Serenity start mazing? Supposedly she didn't always have this ability, so where did it come from?

When did humans first appear in the multiverse? What timescale are we talking about here?

What happens if I, standing on the material plane Toril, magically protect myself against the elements and fly straight up? Do I reach space?

[JoeyTheNeko]

legacy weapons, how would you fit them into a planescape campaign? what kind of strange, exotic legacy weapons would you imagine to fit a campaign of planescape style and flavor?

[afroakuma]

Why and when did Her Serenity start mazing? Supposedly she didn't always have this ability, so where did it come from?

I don't know that she's ever lacked the ability. As with most things involving the Lady, we can't really know. I couldn't tell you the first time she's recorded to have mazed someone, and I certainly couldn't speak intelligently to why except to suggest that the Lady has an affinity for planar principles and a certain amount of ironic karma from time to time. See Faction War for an example.

When did humans first appear in the multiverse? What timescale are we talking about here?

Hard to say, especially since canon is hazy on the origins of humanity and it varies world to world. A Grand History of the Realms suggests that humans first appeared on Toril some 35,000 years ago. It's likely that human history on the Prime extends farther back than this in other spheres, but they are still predated by truly ancient races on a much larger time scale, many of which are now lost peoples.

What happens if I, standing on the material plane Toril, magically protect myself against the elements and fly straight up? Do I reach space?

Yep.

legacy weapons, how would you fit them into a planescape campaign?

I wouldn't, Legacy Weapons are a terrible subsystem. In any event, I don't see why such items in Planescape would be vastly different from those of other worlds - the system is quite strict on its definitions of balance, after all, and doesn't really look to be exceptional. Take whichever concept, attune it to the needs of planar travelers or those who reside among the planes, and off you go.

[rigsmal]

Thanks for your answers. Just to pick up on the one about space, that's the phlogiston of the Spelljammer setting, right? I'm not very familiar with it.

Here's an opinion question, and totally removed from the thread topic. So ignore me if you'd like.

The 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook ends history in the year 1372. I'm not familiar with 4e and 5e Forgotten Realms history, but I know that the Spellplague of 1385 marks a turning point. If you were in charge of writing the history, would you have introduced the Spellplague?

I guess, branching off from this question, is there any 'foreshadowing' of the Spellplague in 3e sources? In the aforementioned sourcebook, I quote:

Year of Wild Magic: By the midpoint of the year, several events have signaled a shift in the balance of power for all of Faerun.

Is this foreshadowing the Spellplague?

[afroakuma]

Thanks for your answers. Just to pick up on the one about space, that's the phlogiston of the Spelljammer setting, right? I'm not very familiar with it.

Not quite. Wildspace is what you'd run into, which is "space" similar to what you know - an airless void. Wildspace continues for quite some time until you reach the sphere wall of Realmspace, which is one of countless crystal spheres (enclosed solar systems). Passing through the sphere wall brings you into the phlogiston, a glowing rainbow-colored aetheric medium which is used for travel between spheres, generally along safe lanes known for fast and reliable travel.

The 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook ends history in the year 1372. I'm not familiar with 4e and 5e Forgotten Realms history, but I know that the Spellplague of 1385 marks a turning point. If you were in charge of writing the history, would you have introduced the Spellplague?

Definitely not.

I guess, branching off from this question, is there any 'foreshadowing' of the Spellplague in 3e sources?

Because of when Grand History of the Realms dropped, they lined it up. The Spellplague isn't just foreshadowed, it's called out by name. The Year of Wild Magic actually has nothing to do with it - scan ahead to 1385 DR, the Year of Blue Fire.

[JoeyTheNeko]

which crystal sphere settings do you feel should have gotten more material then they did in the transitions from 2ed and 3ed to 3.5 personally I always found birthright and council of wyrms to be settings that really should have gotten more expansion. any that you feel the same way on?

[enderlord99]

It's my headcanon that there aren't actually very many ghouls in Doresain's realm because (somewhat confusingly) the ghouls keep them in check. I mean, ghouls are corpse-eating corpses, and Doresain is also a god of cannibalism...

Is this compatible with canon? An answer of "yes" or "no" is acceptable, but more detail would be preferred.

[Feantar]

we have gods of lichs, gods of vampires..
any notable mummy gods? or gods of other sentient and ensouled undead?

I think mummies are generally divine servants, so a god of mummies would not be particularly fitting. Also, see Hunnefer, for the closest thing a mummy ever comes to a divine rank.

Also, wait, Vecna or Velsharoon are considered deities of liches? I just thought they happened to be liches prior to being deities.

[afroakuma]

which crystal sphere settings do you feel should have gotten more material then they did in the transitions from 2ed and 3ed to 3.5 personally I always found birthright and council of wyrms to be settings that really should have gotten more expansion. any that you feel the same way on?

I liked the original Dragonlance setting; Fifth Age not so much, but what can you do. Birthright I enjoyed from a flavor standpoint, though in fairness I don't know that they gave themselves enough of a framework to work with as a setting for a traditional D&D game as opposed to the realm-based play that Birthright encouraged. I would have liked more exploration of new settings, as well, though I suspect that TSR's business challenges encouraged WotC to avoid a similar model.

It's my headcanon that there aren't actually very many ghouls in Doresain's realm because (somewhat confusingly) the ghouls keep them in check. I mean, ghouls are corpse-eating corpses, and Doresain is also a god of cannibalism...

Is this compatible with canon? An answer of "yes" or "no" is acceptable, but more detail would be preferred.

Sure why not.

Technically canon has nothing to say on the matter, although it very strongly suggests that ghouls desire the flesh of the living or the recently deceased and have no use for gnawing on other undead. It's a matter of sustenance, and Doresain is celebrated with acts of gluttony and the devouring of living flesh. That said, Libris Mortis officially says the diet of ghouls is "flesh" so go nuts if you want to. I will point out that Doresain is a proponent of the cannibalistic debauchery that turns mortals into ghouls, and his dogma has nothing to do with "make sure to go eat your own kind, even if you're already dead."

Also, wait, Vecna or Velsharoon are considered deities of liches? I just thought they happened to be liches prior to being deities.

I assume it was a reference to Mellifleur, who is in fact specifically the god of liches.

[rigsmal]

The interaction of every setting's cosmologies confuses me, in particular, the interaction of Spelljammer and Planescape in the cosmic structure of the multiverse.

Can I understand all of space, the crystal spheres, and whatnot to be contained in one of the many material planes? I cannot get to another plane by flying far enough in the sea of phlogiston?

Edit: Also, how do multiple worlds in the same material plane interact? By the description of spells like greater teleport, it's almost as if they share a planetary surface, implying I could potentially sail to Krynn or Eberron from Toril?

[afroakuma]

The interaction of every setting's cosmologies confuses me, in particular, the interaction of Spelljammer and Planescape in the cosmic structure of the multiverse.

Alright, this isn't too difficult. Let's take good old Toril as our example, it's very useful.

At the continental level exist several different settings:

• Forgotten Realms (on the continent of Faerûn)
• Kara-Tur (on the continent of Kara-Tur)
• Al Qadim (on the subcontinent of Zahkhara)
• Maztica (on the continent of Maztica)

All of these take place on the planet Toril, one of several planets that make up a system contained within a vast crystal sphere. Within this sphere you will find the vacuum of wildspace, and the many phenomena native to that environment. This whole crystal sphere is called Realmspace.

Passing through the crystal sphere of Realmspace, we enter the phlogiston, and now can navigate to other crystal spheres both near and far. The closest, at the moment, are Krynnspace (the Dragonlance setting) and Greyspace (the Greyhawk setting). Travel in wildspace and the phlogiston between these worlds forms the Spelljammer setting.

Supposing that instead of plying my trade among the stars, flying from planet to planet, I elected to journey through astral projection to the Elemental Plane of Air, or visit the city of Sigil, or delve into the Infinite Layers of the Abyss. At this point, I am in the Planescape setting, where I may see the sites of the Great Wheel cosmology. I could even visit the realms of gods native to Krynn, Toril, or Oerth - to say nothing of any number of others.

Can I understand all of space, the crystal spheres, and whatnot to be contained in one of the many material planes? I cannot get to another plane by flying far enough in the sea of phlogiston?

Quite correct.

Also, how do multiple worlds in the same material plane interact? By the description of spells like greater teleport, it's almost as if they share a planetary surface, implying I could potentially sail to Krynn or Eberron from Toril?

You could! Eberron... well, some people won't agree with me on that one, since it was not designed to fit into the same cosmology, but phooey on them. Krynn, yes, you can specifically sail to from Toril. Takes about 58 days along major routes, not taking into consideration time spent navigating within Krynnspace and Realmspace.

[Malimar]

You could! Eberron... well, some people won't agree with me on that one, since it was not designed to fit into the same cosmology, but phooey on them. Krynn, yes, you can specifically sail to from Toril. Takes about 58 days along major routes, not taking into consideration time spent navigating within Krynnspace and Realmspace.

To clarify, you can sail between Krynn and Toril and Eberron and so on on a spelljammer, yes? You can only use a sea-boat to sail to different settings if they're different continents on the same planet, as in the four examples from Toril.

Also you can't use spells to teleport directly from one Crystal Sphere to another, because phlogiston blocks teleportation. Yes?

[afroakuma]

To clarify, you can sail between Krynn and Toril and Eberron and so on on a spelljammer, yes?

Correct. Astrogation only. Water won't do.

Also you can't use spells to teleport directly from one Crystal Sphere to another, because phlogiston blocks teleportation. Yes?

This one's constantly in a gray area, since teleport employs the Astral Plane to get around... in theory you should be able to, but the general understanding is that crystal spheres impede "addressing" somehow for teleportation effects that didn't originate within them. This may be a property set by the local supernatural muckymucks to keep out the come-from-aways. If that makes sense.

[rigsmal]

Thanks for the write-up. It clarified pretty much everything I wanted to know.

I'm sure I'll be back with more annoying questions.

Out of curiosity, do you or have you worked on third-party material before?

[afroakuma]

Out of curiosity, do you or have you worked on third-party material before?

I have not. I think I'm credited in a couple of third-party Pathfinder products for helping a friend or two name a thing.

[enderlord99]

I have not. I think I'm credited in a couple of third-party Pathfinder products for helping a friend or two name a thing.

Isn't homebrew just third-party with a price of zero?

[Bronk]

I'm looking into Grazz't's Triple Realm of Azzagrat, and specifically the cities of Zelatar and Samora, and the descriptions seem to be conflicting.

On one hand, both cities are hailed as pleasure dens, so you might expect that all sorts would be sort of welcome, as long as they're willing (or appear to be willing?) to participate, because they're trying to subvert souls. But on the other hand, both cities are described as having extensive marketplaces, and it seems that the only visitors that are even somewhat protected are merchants, and in addition, both cities have slave dens.

So, how would a group of adventurers fare in the city? Would they be attacked and robbed by demons and brought to the slave dens? Would they be tossed into a pleasure den area? Could they pretend to be merchants? Could they blend in with others in the city?

Are the marketplaces just for demons to frequent, or are other planar travelers allowed to shop?

Also, I could have sworn I found something that mentioned that a lot of the objects and architecture are made from transformed mortal souls, and that you could see faces in them sometimes. Was that from here, and if so, what happens if you took one off plane? Would it disappear, or could you use it to restore the mortal to life?

[JoeyTheNeko]

on the subject of zelatar, you mentioned that in most cases, even the abyss obeys the standards of planar normalcy... but that zelatar is one of the places it breaks it, just like shattered night. aside from it existing on all 3 layers at the same time (and on another question, how exactly does that work) and is there any other place in the abyss similar, any places besides those two the abyss does not conform to planar norms?

[unseenmage]

There's some light Demiplane of Dread discussion here if you're interested Afro.

Would enjoy your take on the matter.

[JoeyTheNeko]

does the abyss have any form of counterpart to hellfire? why or why not?

[afroakuma]

I'm looking into Grazz't's Triple Realm of Azzagrat, and specifically the cities of Zelatar and Samora, and the descriptions seem to be conflicting.

On one hand, both cities are hailed as pleasure dens, so you might expect that all sorts would be sort of welcome, as long as they're willing (or appear to be willing?) to participate, because they're trying to subvert souls. But on the other hand, both cities are described as having extensive marketplaces, and it seems that the only visitors that are even somewhat protected are merchants, and in addition, both cities have slave dens.

Nothing conflicting about that at all. Sadly, it's basically true of a number of real-world cities in certain parts of the world.

So, how would a group of adventurers fare in the city? Would they be attacked and robbed by demons and brought to the slave dens? Would they be tossed into a pleasure den area? Could they pretend to be merchants? Could they blend in with others in the city?

All depends on how well they keep their wits about them, and whether they can convince the more predatory local elements to keep their distance.

Are the marketplaces just for demons to frequent, or are other planar travelers allowed to shop?

Everyone's free to shop.

Also, I could have sworn I found something that mentioned that a lot of the objects and architecture are made from transformed mortal souls, and that you could see faces in them sometimes. Was that from here, and if so, what happens if you took one off plane? Would it disappear, or could you use it to restore the mortal to life?

Yes, many things in Zelatar are formed of souls surrendered to Graz'zt. These souls are beyond help - breaking the objects just causes the soul further pain, and bringing them off-plane would likely just contaminate other places with the evil stain of the magic that put them in such a state - to say nothing of the fact that the souls themselves are likely on the dark end of the alignment spectrum. It's possible that powerful magic could secure a soul's release from this form in some fashion, but Graz'zt still has claims on it, and would send agents to collect.

on the subject of zelatar, you mentioned that in most cases, even the abyss obeys the standards of planar normalcy... but that zelatar is one of the places it breaks it, just like shattered night. aside from it existing on all 3 layers at the same time (and on another question, how exactly does that work)

Powerful magic. No section actually exists wholly on multiple layers, but neither is it separated cleanly and distinctly.

and is there any other place in the abyss similar, any places besides those two the abyss does not conform to planar norms?

It's the Abyss. Something is going to be refusing to conform to planar norms. Azzagrat does so only because of extremely powerful magic forcing it to behave, in certain places, in a certain way - arguably it follows the norms more than it breaks them, since the breaking isn't inherent to the layers.

does the abyss have any form of counterpart to hellfire?

No.

why or why not?

How do you expect me to answer this? There will not be a canonical explanation of "why not."